WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri


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Hi Giri,
Depends on what your driver is doing. For instance I needed to debug
serial.sys, for which windbg will not work (or better to say I don’t know
how to configure it to work), so I used softice.
There are a few things to hate the softice for:

  1. Text interface
  2. Restarts of your developer machine
  3. Need to learn new commands

But sometimes it is pretty handy, I actually use both.
Regards,
Stas,
Powernet

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Girish
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 2:38 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri


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My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.

WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri


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> WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.

Great Point!!! I’ve become a bit disillusioned with SoftIce pricing…

Thomas “Rick” Tewell
Ligos Corporation


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windbg require another host
----- Original Message -----
From: “Gary G. Little”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 1:24 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

> My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.
>
> WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
> Hello,
>
> For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?
>
> Thanks,
> Giri
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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Having used both, I will stick with WinDbg especially
now that Microsoft is working to maintain it. The big
claimed advantage of SoftIce is using needing only
one machine. Personally, I don’t think it has value,
I don’t want to be developing system software on
the machine I test it on, that is asking for trouble.

Also, personally I believe the SoftIce interface stinks
even for a DOS program, and we should be beyond
that by now.

Don Burn
Windows 2000 Device Driver and Filesystem consulting


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This isn’t such a big deal. Since most people develop on one machine and
test the code on another they’ll have two machines anyway.

I usually have three machines in my office. A developers station, a single
CPU test machine and a dual processor test machine.

Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Hesham Desokey
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 3:47 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

windbg require another host
----- Original Message -----
From: “Gary G. Little”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 1:24 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

> My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.
>
> WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
> Hello,
>
> For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?
>
> Thanks,
> Giri
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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Yup WinDbg requires another machine, which you can get for the money you
would have spent for SoftIce. And target/host debugging is recommended
because when dealing with the kernel at this level, you sometimes screw the
pooch and end up with a completely unbootable system. If that system is also
your development machine with all that lovely source for your whiz bang
driver, that pooch is now screwing you.

Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Hesham Desokey [mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 12:47 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

windbg require another host
----- Original Message -----
From: “Gary G. Little”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 1:24 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

> My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.
>
> WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce
costs $700+.
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
Girish
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
> Hello,
>
> For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg
or SoftIce?
>
> Thanks,
> Giri
>
>
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Gary,

Given our recent digression into tales of explosive devices and youthful
indiscretions, don’t you think you should avoid any mention of
pooch-screwing?

Mark Roddy
xxxxx@hollistech.com
www.hollistech.com
603 321 1032
WindowsNT Windows 2000 Consulting Services

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Little [mailto:xxxxx@Broadstor.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 11:07 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Yup WinDbg requires another machine, which you can get for the money you
would have spent for SoftIce. And target/host debugging is recommended
because when dealing with the kernel at this level, you sometimes screw the
pooch and end up with a completely unbootable system. If that system is also
your development machine with all that lovely source for your whiz bang
driver, that pooch is now screwing you.

Gary

BM__MailData-----Original Message-----
From: Hesham Desokey [ mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com
mailto:xxxxx ]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 12:47 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

windbg require another host
----- Original Message -----
From: “Gary G. Little”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 1:24 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

> My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.
>
> WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
mailto:xxxxx] On Behalf Of Girish
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
> Hello,
>
> For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?
>
> Thanks,
> Giri
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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Golly, that brings a whole new dimension to a system blowing up! I hope you
can’t send a cherry bomb over TCP/IP, or we may have to recall our imminent
2.5 release…

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Roddy, Mark [mailto:xxxxx@stratus.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 12:33 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Gary,

Given our recent digression into tales of explosive devices and youthful
indiscretions, don’t you think you should avoid any mention of
pooch-screwing?

Mark Roddy
xxxxx@hollistech.com
www.hollistech.com
603 321 1032
WindowsNT Windows 2000 Consulting Services

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Little [mailto:xxxxx@Broadstor.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 11:07 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Yup WinDbg requires another machine, which you can get for the money you
would have spent for SoftIce. And target/host debugging is recommended
because when dealing with the kernel at this level, you sometimes screw the
pooch and end up with a completely unbootable system. If that system is also
your development machine with all that lovely source for your whiz bang
driver, that pooch is now screwing you.

Gary

BM__MailData-----Original Message-----
From: Hesham Desokey [ mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com
mailto:xxxxx ]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 12:47 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

windbg require another host
----- Original Message -----
From: “Gary G. Little”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 1:24 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

> My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.
>
> WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
mailto:xxxxx] On Behalf Of Girish
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
> Hello,
>
> For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?
>
> Thanks,
> Giri
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> This e-mail has been sent to you courtesy of OperaMail, as a free
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There is no problem debugging serial.sys with WinDBG.
When you turn on \debug, one COM port is stolen away from the OS, so
serial.sys can not use it. But other serial ports work just fine.

-Andre


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No comment … :slight_smile:

Gary G. Little
Sr. Staff Engineer
Broadband Storage, Inc.
xxxxx@broadstor.com
xxxxx@delphieng.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Roddy, Mark [mailto:xxxxx@stratus.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 9:33 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Gary,

Given our recent digression into tales of explosive devices and youthful
indiscretions, don’t you think you should avoid any mention of
pooch-screwing?

Mark Roddy
xxxxx@hollistech.com
www.hollistech.com
603 321 1032
WindowsNT Windows 2000 Consulting Services

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Little [mailto:xxxxx@Broadstor.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 11:07 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Yup WinDbg requires another machine, which you can get for the money you
would have spent for SoftIce. And target/host debugging is recommended
because when dealing with the kernel at this level, you sometimes screw the
pooch and end up with a completely unbootable system. If that system is also
your development machine with all that lovely source for your whiz bang
driver, that pooch is now screwing you.

Gary

BM__MailData-----Original Message-----
From: Hesham Desokey [ mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com
mailto:xxxxx ]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 12:47 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

windbg require another host
----- Original Message -----
From: “Gary G. Little”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 1:24 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

> My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.
>
> WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
mailto:xxxxx] On Behalf Of Girish
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
> Hello,
>
> For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?
>
> Thanks,
> Giri
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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$0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.

All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it supported.)
And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job is
tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting help from
M$.

I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d think
that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could. Back
with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than M$ for many
years. Now Developer Studio is much better.

I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.

I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0, ours
wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention I can see
the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
WinDbg get?

$0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.

WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri


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At the risk of wrecking my reputation by NOT slamming microsoft, I really do
not think that windbag represents a revenue interest to microsoft, nor do I
think they have any strategy to put softice/numega/compuwhatever out of
business. Now it just may happen that softice can’t survive a good windbag,
certainly numega will have to figure out some way to justify the additional
cost.

What I think happened is two things: 1) they actually listened to all of the
griping from us sniveling whiny developers, 2) windbag started to get used
‘in house’ as new folks moved into NT development and didn’t have the
cultural bias towards (gak) kdb.

For whatever reason I really LIKE getting !NEW !IMPROVED !WINDBAGs just
about every other month, with each new release a little bit better than the
last one.

Mark Roddy
Windows 2000/NT Consultant
Hollis Technology Solutions
xxxxx@hollistech.com
603 321 1032
www.hollistech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

$0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.

All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it
supported.)
And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job is
tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting
help from
M$.

I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d think
that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could. Back
with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than
M$ for many
years. Now Developer Studio is much better.

I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.

I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0, ours
wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention
I can see
the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
WinDbg get?

$0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.

WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri


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Amen to that. I don’t begrudge the money I’ve paid Numega over the years to
get a technically superior product.

Ric Hunt
Hunt Consulting

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

$0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.

All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it supported.)
And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job is
tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting help from
M$.

I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d think
that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could. Back
with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than M$ for many
years. Now Developer Studio is much better.

I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.

I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0, ours
wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention I can see
the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
WinDbg get?

$0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.

WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri


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> Amen to that. I don’t begrudge the money I’ve paid Numega over the years
to

get a technically superior product.

// *** beginning of rant ***

Please… Its not really NuMega anymore its Compuware and ever since they
bought NuMega (or merged or whatever) the price keeps going up and up and
up. Every time we turn around they have some new “package” that you have to
buy just to get the debugger. You can’t just get SoftIce anymore…

Our company has 30-40 SW developers and I think I am well within the mark to
say that we driver guys have decided that enough is enough. We don’t want
DriverWorks or VtoolsD or DriverAgent…we just want a solid debugger like
SoftIce and that’s it! No more “other stuff” …and now that we have a
viable debugger alternative from MS that I think is quite a bit better,
well…its obvious.

We have been clients of NuMega since 1992 and have bought EVERY debugger
upgrade, subscription and “suite” for DOS, Windows 9x and NT they have
offered until now… I should have accounting go back and calculate the
total dollars we have paid NuMega (not that it really matters). I don’t
begrudge them their fee, I just don’t like their policies anymore. I don’t
like their pricing or their packages, and I’m a bit disillusioned with their
product now. The product historically has been great and I thank them for
that, as indicated in emails I’ve sent them praising their product over the
past 8-9 years.

At this point we are pretty much done with SoftIce…although our apps guys
really like BoundsChecker…but you can’t get that by itself any more either
from what I’m told (hint hint MS).

BTW Its not $700…its $700 this year, and then who knows next year and the
next and the next…

For those of you who like their product, great use it…if you are a
consultant…its your money you are spending. If you are a company its still
kind of your money…spend it wisely.

// *** end of rant ***

Thomas “Rick” Tewell
Ligos Corporation


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Mark:

I don’t think windbg is a “direct” revenue interest either and I don’t blame
M$ for adding a stack to Win’95 which wasn’t a direct revenue interest. An
OS without network support is very limited. What I blame M$ for is not
having a quality windbg for all those years.

It is great that windbg (which means us developers) is getting the attention
it deserves finally. I just think that if windbg gives us 80%-90% of what
SoftIce does at $0, then we won’t even pay $50 bucks for a “better” product.
If we don’t pay enough for the continued development of SoftIce it won’t
last in the market place. I’m not even saying that it should, it’s just the
nature of the beast. All I really wanted to say was, I’m glad SoftIce has
been there.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Roddy [mailto:xxxxx@hollistech.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:44 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

At the risk of wrecking my reputation by NOT slamming microsoft, I really do
not think that windbag represents a revenue interest to microsoft, nor do I
think they have any strategy to put softice/numega/compuwhatever out of
business. Now it just may happen that softice can’t survive a good windbag,
certainly numega will have to figure out some way to justify the additional
cost.

What I think happened is two things: 1) they actually listened to all of the
griping from us sniveling whiny developers, 2) windbag started to get used
‘in house’ as new folks moved into NT development and didn’t have the
cultural bias towards (gak) kdb.

For whatever reason I really LIKE getting !NEW !IMPROVED !WINDBAGs just
about every other month, with each new release a little bit better than the
last one.

Mark Roddy
Windows 2000/NT Consultant
Hollis Technology Solutions
xxxxx@hollistech.com
603 321 1032
www.hollistech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

$0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.

All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it
supported.)
And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job is
tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting
help from
M$.

I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d think
that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could. Back
with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than
M$ for many
years. Now Developer Studio is much better.

I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.

I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0, ours
wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention
I can see
the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
WinDbg get?

$0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.

WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri


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Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
80%. :wink:

Alberto.

=======================

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Jackson [mailto:xxxxx@nmwco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Mark:

I don’t think windbg is a “direct” revenue interest either and I don’t blame
M$ for adding a stack to Win’95 which wasn’t a direct revenue interest. An
OS without network support is very limited. What I blame M$ for is not
having a quality windbg for all those years.

It is great that windbg (which means us developers) is getting the attention
it deserves finally. I just think that if windbg gives us 80%-90% of what
SoftIce does at $0, then we won’t even pay $50 bucks for a “better” product.
If we don’t pay enough for the continued development of SoftIce it won’t
last in the market place. I’m not even saying that it should, it’s just the
nature of the beast. All I really wanted to say was, I’m glad SoftIce has
been there.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Roddy [mailto:xxxxx@hollistech.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:44 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

At the risk of wrecking my reputation by NOT slamming microsoft, I really do
not think that windbag represents a revenue interest to microsoft, nor do I
think they have any strategy to put softice/numega/compuwhatever out of
business. Now it just may happen that softice can’t survive a good windbag,
certainly numega will have to figure out some way to justify the additional
cost.

What I think happened is two things: 1) they actually listened to all of the
griping from us sniveling whiny developers, 2) windbag started to get used
‘in house’ as new folks moved into NT development and didn’t have the
cultural bias towards (gak) kdb.

For whatever reason I really LIKE getting !NEW !IMPROVED !WINDBAGs just
about every other month, with each new release a little bit better than the
last one.

Mark Roddy
Windows 2000/NT Consultant
Hollis Technology Solutions
xxxxx@hollistech.com
603 321 1032
www.hollistech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

$0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.

All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it
supported.)
And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job is
tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting
help from
M$.

I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d think
that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could. Back
with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than
M$ for many
years. Now Developer Studio is much better.

I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.

I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0, ours
wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention
I can see
the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
WinDbg get?

$0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.

WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri


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Well, I could use a debugger that works on a single machine (e.g., the
notebook I take to a customer site) and works on all versions of Windows
from Windows 95 through Windows XP.

Those are the platforms that I have to support…

That would be nice.

Regards,

Thomas F. Divine

PCAUSA - Toolkits & Resources For Network Software Developers
NDIS Protocol - NDIS Intermediate - TDI Client
http: - http:

----- Original Message -----
From: Moreira, Alberto
To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:35 PM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

> Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
> 80%. :wink:
>
>
> Alberto.
>
> =======================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Jackson [mailto:xxxxx@nmwco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:19 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
>
> Mark:
>
> I don’t think windbg is a “direct” revenue interest either and I don’t
blame
> M$ for adding a stack to Win’95 which wasn’t a direct revenue interest.
An
> OS without network support is very limited. What I blame M$ for is not
> having a quality windbg for all those years.
>
> It is great that windbg (which means us developers) is getting the
attention
> it deserves finally. I just think that if windbg gives us 80%-90% of what
> SoftIce does at $0, then we won’t even pay $50 bucks for a “better”
product.
> If we don’t pay enough for the continued development of SoftIce it won’t
> last in the market place. I’m not even saying that it should, it’s just
the
> nature of the beast. All I really wanted to say was, I’m glad SoftIce has
> been there.
>
> Michael S. Jackson
> xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
> www.netmotionwireless.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Roddy [mailto:xxxxx@hollistech.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:44 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
>
> At the risk of wrecking my reputation by NOT slamming microsoft, I really
do
> not think that windbag represents a revenue interest to microsoft, nor do
I
> think they have any strategy to put softice/numega/compuwhatever out of
> business. Now it just may happen that softice can’t survive a good
windbag,
> certainly numega will have to figure out some way to justify the
additional
> cost.
>
> What I think happened is two things: 1) they actually listened to all of
the
> griping from us sniveling whiny developers, 2) windbag started to get used
> ‘in house’ as new folks moved into NT development and didn’t have the
> cultural bias towards (gak) kdb.
>
> For whatever reason I really LIKE getting !NEW !IMPROVED !WINDBAGs just
> about every other month, with each new release a little bit better than
the
> last one.
>
>
> Mark Roddy
> Windows 2000/NT Consultant
> Hollis Technology Solutions
> xxxxx@hollistech.com
> 603 321 1032
> www.hollistech.com
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:25 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> >
> > $0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.
> >
> > All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it
> > supported.)
> > And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
> > building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job
is
> > tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting
> > help from
> > M$.
> >
> > I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d
think
> > that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could.
Back
> > with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than
> > M$ for many
> > years. Now Developer Studio is much better.
> >
> > I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
> > don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.
> >
> > I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
> > 3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0,
ours
> > wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention
> > I can see
> > the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
> > WinDbg get?
> >
> > $0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.
> >
> > Michael S. Jackson
> > xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
> > www.netmotionwireless.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
> > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> >
> > My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.
> >
> > WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
> > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Giri
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > This e-mail has been sent to you courtesy of OperaMail, as a free
> > service from
> > Opera Software, makers of the award-winning Web Browser,
> > Opera. Visit us
> > at
> > http://www.opera.com/ or our portal at: http://www.myopera.com/ Your
free
> > e-mail
> > account is waiting at: http://www.operamail.com/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > —
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> >
>
>
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Separate the debugger from the rest of the “suite”, and you’ve got a very
good start.

A modern GUI with repositionable windows (for remote debugging, I understand
the requirements of doing a GUI for local debugging would be onerous) would
be a good second step.

If I could do remote debugging of Win2K over Ethernet, instead of a slow
serial connection, or an expensive 1394 connection that is only supported on
XP, I might be very inclined to use SoftICE again. I would be happy to
dedicate a card in both boxes for it, as I would have to do that with 1394,
anyway, and I can get NICs for small $, 1394 is big $$$.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Moreira, Alberto [mailto:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:35 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
80%. :wink:

Alberto.

=======================

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Jackson [mailto:xxxxx@nmwco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Mark:

I don’t think windbg is a “direct” revenue interest either and I don’t blame
M$ for adding a stack to Win’95 which wasn’t a direct revenue interest. An
OS without network support is very limited. What I blame M$ for is not
having a quality windbg for all those years.

It is great that windbg (which means us developers) is getting the attention
it deserves finally. I just think that if windbg gives us 80%-90% of what
SoftIce does at $0, then we won’t even pay $50 bucks for a “better” product.
If we don’t pay enough for the continued development of SoftIce it won’t
last in the market place. I’m not even saying that it should, it’s just the
nature of the beast. All I really wanted to say was, I’m glad SoftIce has
been there.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Roddy [mailto:xxxxx@hollistech.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:44 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

At the risk of wrecking my reputation by NOT slamming microsoft, I really do
not think that windbag represents a revenue interest to microsoft, nor do I
think they have any strategy to put softice/numega/compuwhatever out of
business. Now it just may happen that softice can’t survive a good windbag,
certainly numega will have to figure out some way to justify the additional
cost.

What I think happened is two things: 1) they actually listened to all of the
griping from us sniveling whiny developers, 2) windbag started to get used
‘in house’ as new folks moved into NT development and didn’t have the
cultural bias towards (gak) kdb.

For whatever reason I really LIKE getting !NEW !IMPROVED !WINDBAGs just
about every other month, with each new release a little bit better than the
last one.

Mark Roddy
Windows 2000/NT Consultant
Hollis Technology Solutions
xxxxx@hollistech.com
603 321 1032
www.hollistech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

$0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.

All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it
supported.)
And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job is
tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting
help from
M$.

I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d think
that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could. Back
with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than
M$ for many
years. Now Developer Studio is much better.

I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.

I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0, ours
wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention
I can see
the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
WinDbg get?

$0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.

WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri


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