WinDbg Vs SoftIce

NTDEV
21

Alberto,

I don’t want being rude but could you fix all reported problems at first?
I’m waiting almost year for some fixes…

Michal

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
Veridicom
(RKK - Skytale)
[WWW: http://www.veridicom.com , http://www.skytale.com]

From: Moreira, Alberto[SMTP:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Reply To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 7:35 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
80%. :wink:

Alberto.

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22

Hello All,

Even I feel that WinDbg is better…

Gr

===== Original Message From xxxxx@microsoft.com =====
There is no problem debugging serial.sys with WinDBG.
When you turn on \debug, one COM port is stolen away from the OS, so
serial.sys can not use it. But other serial ports work just fine.

-Andre

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23

Yes, I use SI for the same reasons: one machine debugging and work on all
platforms I have to support (I hate w9x but customers don’t care :). Instead
of others I don’t have problems with user interface. I use windbg for
crashdump analysis and don’t see any real advantage with this GUI, I work
more effective with SI. Well, I always prefer keyboard over mouse and good
command line over ineffective GUI.

I see different problem: in past years SI became almost unsupported. It
takes months to get the easiest fixes and more complicated or rare problems
aren’t fixed at all. It is really ironical; windbg became better and
supported and on the other hand there was no real SI improvement in past
year and support deteriorated. Oh well, I receive a kind reply to every
report but what I really need are fixes in timely manner.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
Veridicom
(RKK - Skytale)
[WWW: http://www.veridicom.com , http://www.skytale.com]

From: Thomas F. Divine[SMTP:xxxxx@pcausa.com]
Reply To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 7:45 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Well, I could use a debugger that works on a single machine (e.g., the
notebook I take to a customer site) and works on all versions of Windows
from Windows 95 through Windows XP.

Those are the platforms that I have to support…

That would be nice.

Regards,

Thomas F. Divine

PCAUSA - Toolkits & Resources For Network Software Developers
NDIS Protocol - NDIS Intermediate - TDI Client
http: - http:
>
>

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24

We do what we can. :slight_smile: Seriously, the backlog is going down. Because the 2.5
source’s been changed so much, we intend do a bugwhackblitzfest immediately
after we square away the new 2.5 Beta 1. Some components have been rewritten
or outright removed, so we hope that some bugs will become obsolete. But
hey, keep the information flowing! I’ll do my best to oblige.

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vodicka, Michal [mailto:xxxxx@rkk.cz]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 2:45 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Alberto,

I don’t want being rude but could you fix all reported problems at first?
I’m waiting almost year for some fixes…

Michal

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
Veridicom
(RKK - Skytale)
[WWW: http://www.veridicom.com , http://www.skytale.com]

From: Moreira, Alberto[SMTP:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Reply To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 7:35 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
80%. :wink:

Alberto.

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25

The forthcoming 2.5 will work on XP Beta 2. On the other hand, do people
really need Win95 support ? Geez, I would love to be able to drop it!

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas F. Divine [mailto:xxxxx@pcausa.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:46 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Well, I could use a debugger that works on a single machine (e.g., the
notebook I take to a customer site) and works on all versions of Windows
from Windows 95 through Windows XP.

Those are the platforms that I have to support…

That would be nice.

Regards,

Thomas F. Divine

PCAUSA - Toolkits & Resources For Network Software Developers
NDIS Protocol - NDIS Intermediate - TDI Client
http: - http:

----- Original Message -----
From: Moreira, Alberto
To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:35 PM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

> Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
> 80%. :wink:
>
>
> Alberto.
>
> =======================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Jackson [mailto:xxxxx@nmwco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:19 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
>
> Mark:
>
> I don’t think windbg is a “direct” revenue interest either and I don’t
blame
> M$ for adding a stack to Win’95 which wasn’t a direct revenue interest.
An
> OS without network support is very limited. What I blame M$ for is not
> having a quality windbg for all those years.
>
> It is great that windbg (which means us developers) is getting the
attention
> it deserves finally. I just think that if windbg gives us 80%-90% of what
> SoftIce does at $0, then we won’t even pay $50 bucks for a “better”
product.
> If we don’t pay enough for the continued development of SoftIce it won’t
> last in the market place. I’m not even saying that it should, it’s just
the
> nature of the beast. All I really wanted to say was, I’m glad SoftIce has
> been there.
>
> Michael S. Jackson
> xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
> www.netmotionwireless.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Roddy [mailto:xxxxx@hollistech.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:44 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
>
> At the risk of wrecking my reputation by NOT slamming microsoft, I really
do
> not think that windbag represents a revenue interest to microsoft, nor do
I
> think they have any strategy to put softice/numega/compuwhatever out of
> business. Now it just may happen that softice can’t survive a good
windbag,
> certainly numega will have to figure out some way to justify the
additional
> cost.
>
> What I think happened is two things: 1) they actually listened to all of
the
> griping from us sniveling whiny developers, 2) windbag started to get used
> ‘in house’ as new folks moved into NT development and didn’t have the
> cultural bias towards (gak) kdb.
>
> For whatever reason I really LIKE getting !NEW !IMPROVED !WINDBAGs just
> about every other month, with each new release a little bit better than
the
> last one.
>
>
> Mark Roddy
> Windows 2000/NT Consultant
> Hollis Technology Solutions
> xxxxx@hollistech.com
> 603 321 1032
> www.hollistech.com
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:25 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> >
> > $0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.
> >
> > All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it
> > supported.)
> > And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
> > building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job
is
> > tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting
> > help from
> > M$.
> >
> > I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d
think
> > that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could.
Back
> > with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than
> > M$ for many
> > years. Now Developer Studio is much better.
> >
> > I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
> > don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.
> >
> > I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
> > 3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0,
ours
> > wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention
> > I can see
> > the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
> > WinDbg get?
> >
> > $0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.
> >
> > Michael S. Jackson
> > xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
> > www.netmotionwireless.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
> > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> >
> > My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.
> >
> > WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
> > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Giri
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > This e-mail has been sent to you courtesy of OperaMail, as a free
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26

Phil,

The SoftIce that’s coming with DriverStudio 2.5, to be released as Beta 1
next week, will allow people to do remote debugging of Win2k, 98, Me or XP,
over a TCP/IP link. It will also allow remote handling of crash dump files,
BoundsChecker information, and TrueTime performance measurement. We are also
adding a “reverse NDIS” layer to SoftIce that will allow it to leverage on
NDIS software layers and communicate even when the target machine is in
stopped state (at a breakpoint, for example), so that we’ll no longer be
limited to support only a handful of ethernet cards.

A GUI for the host side is on the way, I just can’t commit an exact date.

As for separating SoftIce from the rest, I need to convince my marketing
cats that they’re not going to drop their commissions if we do that :slight_smile: This
is, unfortunately, beyond my reach, although I’ve been a vocal supporter of
your position to the rest of the management here.

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Barila, Phil [mailto:xxxxx@intel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:53 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Separate the debugger from the rest of the “suite”, and you’ve got a very
good start.

A modern GUI with repositionable windows (for remote debugging, I understand
the requirements of doing a GUI for local debugging would be onerous) would
be a good second step.

If I could do remote debugging of Win2K over Ethernet, instead of a slow
serial connection, or an expensive 1394 connection that is only supported on
XP, I might be very inclined to use SoftICE again. I would be happy to
dedicate a card in both boxes for it, as I would have to do that with 1394,
anyway, and I can get NICs for small $, 1394 is big $$$.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Moreira, Alberto [mailto:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:35 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
80%. :wink:

Alberto.

=======================

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27

I wouldn’t call ~$30 for a 1394 card “big bucks”. (Pricewatch.com list several
starting at $26). Add another $6 for a cable, and off ya go…

Regards,

Paul Bunn, UltraBac.com, 425-644-6000
Microsoft MVP - WindowsNT/2000
http://www.ultrabac.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Barila, Phil [mailto:xxxxx@intel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:53 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Separate the debugger from the rest of the “suite”, and you’ve got a very
good start.

A modern GUI with repositionable windows (for remote debugging, I understand
the requirements of doing a GUI for local debugging would be onerous) would
be a good second step.

If I could do remote debugging of Win2K over Ethernet, instead of a slow
serial connection, or an expensive 1394 connection that is only supported on
XP, I might be very inclined to use SoftICE again. I would be happy to
dedicate a card in both boxes for it, as I would have to do that with 1394,
anyway, and I can get NICs for small $, 1394 is big $$$.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Moreira, Alberto [mailto:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:35 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
80%. :wink:

Alberto.

=======================

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Jackson [mailto:xxxxx@nmwco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Mark:

I don’t think windbg is a “direct” revenue interest either and I don’t blame
M$ for adding a stack to Win’95 which wasn’t a direct revenue interest. An
OS without network support is very limited. What I blame M$ for is not
having a quality windbg for all those years.

It is great that windbg (which means us developers) is getting the attention
it deserves finally. I just think that if windbg gives us 80%-90% of what
SoftIce does at $0, then we won’t even pay $50 bucks for a “better” product.
If we don’t pay enough for the continued development of SoftIce it won’t
last in the market place. I’m not even saying that it should, it’s just the
nature of the beast. All I really wanted to say was, I’m glad SoftIce has
been there.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Roddy [mailto:xxxxx@hollistech.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:44 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

At the risk of wrecking my reputation by NOT slamming microsoft, I really do
not think that windbag represents a revenue interest to microsoft, nor do I
think they have any strategy to put softice/numega/compuwhatever out of
business. Now it just may happen that softice can’t survive a good windbag,
certainly numega will have to figure out some way to justify the additional
cost.

What I think happened is two things: 1) they actually listened to all of the
griping from us sniveling whiny developers, 2) windbag started to get used
‘in house’ as new folks moved into NT development and didn’t have the
cultural bias towards (gak) kdb.

For whatever reason I really LIKE getting !NEW !IMPROVED !WINDBAGs just
about every other month, with each new release a little bit better than the
last one.

Mark Roddy
Windows 2000/NT Consultant
Hollis Technology Solutions
xxxxx@hollistech.com
603 321 1032
www.hollistech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

$0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.

All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it
supported.)
And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job is
tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting
help from
M$.

I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d think
that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could. Back
with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than
M$ for many
years. Now Developer Studio is much better.

I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.

I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0, ours
wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention
I can see
the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
WinDbg get?

$0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.

WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri

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28

Guys , do you really want to turn this issue into another holy war ? Like we
dont have enough of them… I vote for debug.exe as the best debugger ever.

Best regards , Dan

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29

Alberto,

Most of this is good news. A real GUI would be nice to have, but it’s not
nearly as important as a solid, reliable product with excellent performance.
Right now, WinDBG is as good as SoftICE, the way I use it. And rapidly
improving.

I have used SoftICE in the past, and will use it again if it solves the
problems I need solved. WinDBG works better for me right now. One of the
reasons is the cost. If you need some marketing collateral, tell them that
they won’t get any commission on sales they don’t make, and I’m not buying
all of that gunk just to get SoftICE. Based on what I have seen on this
list, I’m not alone. So the sales-droids can figure it out, or they can
margin-protect themselves, and you, right out of business.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Moreira, Alberto [mailto:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:11 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Phil,

The SoftIce that’s coming with DriverStudio 2.5, to be released as Beta 1
next week, will allow people to do remote debugging of Win2k, 98, Me or XP,
over a TCP/IP link. It will also allow remote handling of crash dump files,
BoundsChecker information, and TrueTime performance measurement. We are also
adding a “reverse NDIS” layer to SoftIce that will allow it to leverage on
NDIS software layers and communicate even when the target machine is in
stopped state (at a breakpoint, for example), so that we’ll no longer be
limited to support only a handful of ethernet cards.

A GUI for the host side is on the way, I just can’t commit an exact date.

As for separating SoftIce from the rest, I need to convince my marketing
cats that they’re not going to drop their commissions if we do that :slight_smile: This
is, unfortunately, beyond my reach, although I’ve been a vocal supporter of
your position to the rest of the management here.

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Barila, Phil [mailto:xxxxx@intel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:53 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Separate the debugger from the rest of the “suite”, and you’ve got a very
good start.

A modern GUI with repositionable windows (for remote debugging, I understand
the requirements of doing a GUI for local debugging would be onerous) would
be a good second step.

If I could do remote debugging of Win2K over Ethernet, instead of a slow
serial connection, or an expensive 1394 connection that is only supported on
XP, I might be very inclined to use SoftICE again. I would be happy to
dedicate a card in both boxes for it, as I would have to do that with 1394,
anyway, and I can get NICs for small $, 1394 is big $$$.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Moreira, Alberto [mailto:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:35 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
80%. :wink:

Alberto.

=======================

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30

People don’t but users do :slight_smile: Unfortunately, we still write new software for
w98 all editions and still have to support old software on w95. For me old
SI versions are sufficient on w95, there aren’t serious problems.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
Veridicom
(RKK - Skytale)
[WWW: http://www.veridicom.com , http://www.skytale.com]

From: Moreira, Alberto[SMTP:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Reply To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:01 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

The forthcoming 2.5 will work on XP Beta 2. On the other hand, do people
really need Win95 support ? Geez, I would love to be able to drop it!

Alberto.

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31

OK, I will wait for 2.5 beta. What you wrote really terrified me. I still
remember how minor changes in 2.0 destroyed some good things…

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
Veridicom
(RKK - Skytale)
[WWW: http://www.veridicom.com , http://www.skytale.com]

From: Moreira, Alberto[SMTP:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Reply To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 9:58 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

We do what we can. :slight_smile: Seriously, the backlog is going down. Because the
2.5
source’s been changed so much, we intend do a bugwhackblitzfest
immediately
after we square away the new 2.5 Beta 1. Some components have been
rewritten
or outright removed, so we hope that some bugs will become obsolete. But
hey, keep the information flowing! I’ll do my best to oblige.

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vodicka, Michal [mailto:xxxxx@rkk.cz]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 2:45 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Alberto,

I don’t want being rude but could you fix all reported problems at first?
I’m waiting almost year for some fixes…

Michal

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
Veridicom
(RKK - Skytale)
[WWW: http://www.veridicom.com , http://www.skytale.com]

> ----------
> From: Moreira, Alberto[SMTP:xxxxx@compuware.com]
> Reply To: NT Developers Interest List
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 7:35 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
> Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering
that
> 80%. :wink:
>
>
> Alberto.
>
>

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32

It’s been too long since I looked at 1394 adapters, I see. I wouldn’t call
them big bucks anymore, either.

Thanks,

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Bunn [mailto:xxxxx@UltraBac.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 2:00 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

I wouldn’t call ~$30 for a 1394 card “big bucks”. (Pricewatch.com list
several
starting at $26). Add another $6 for a cable, and off ya go…

Regards,

Paul Bunn, UltraBac.com, 425-644-6000
Microsoft MVP - WindowsNT/2000
http://www.ultrabac.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Barila, Phil [mailto:xxxxx@intel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:53 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Separate the debugger from the rest of the “suite”, and you’ve got a very
good start.

A modern GUI with repositionable windows (for remote debugging, I understand
the requirements of doing a GUI for local debugging would be onerous) would
be a good second step.

If I could do remote debugging of Win2K over Ethernet, instead of a slow
serial connection, or an expensive 1394 connection that is only supported on
XP, I might be very inclined to use SoftICE again. I would be happy to
dedicate a card in both boxes for it, as I would have to do that with 1394,
anyway, and I can get NICs for small $, 1394 is big $$$.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Moreira, Alberto [mailto:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:35 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
80%. :wink:

Alberto.

=======================

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Jackson [mailto:xxxxx@nmwco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Mark:

I don’t think windbg is a “direct” revenue interest either and I don’t blame
M$ for adding a stack to Win’95 which wasn’t a direct revenue interest. An
OS without network support is very limited. What I blame M$ for is not
having a quality windbg for all those years.

It is great that windbg (which means us developers) is getting the attention
it deserves finally. I just think that if windbg gives us 80%-90% of what
SoftIce does at $0, then we won’t even pay $50 bucks for a “better” product.
If we don’t pay enough for the continued development of SoftIce it won’t
last in the market place. I’m not even saying that it should, it’s just the
nature of the beast. All I really wanted to say was, I’m glad SoftIce has
been there.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Roddy [mailto:xxxxx@hollistech.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:44 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

At the risk of wrecking my reputation by NOT slamming microsoft, I really do
not think that windbag represents a revenue interest to microsoft, nor do I
think they have any strategy to put softice/numega/compuwhatever out of
business. Now it just may happen that softice can’t survive a good windbag,
certainly numega will have to figure out some way to justify the additional
cost.

What I think happened is two things: 1) they actually listened to all of the
griping from us sniveling whiny developers, 2) windbag started to get used
‘in house’ as new folks moved into NT development and didn’t have the
cultural bias towards (gak) kdb.

For whatever reason I really LIKE getting !NEW !IMPROVED !WINDBAGs just
about every other month, with each new release a little bit better than the
last one.

Mark Roddy
Windows 2000/NT Consultant
Hollis Technology Solutions
xxxxx@hollistech.com
603 321 1032
www.hollistech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

$0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.

All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it
supported.)
And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job is
tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting
help from
M$.

I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d think
that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could. Back
with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than
M$ for many
years. Now Developer Studio is much better.

I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.

I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0, ours
wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention
I can see
the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
WinDbg get?

$0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.

WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri

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33

But not XP Beta 1?

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Moreira, Alberto
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:01 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

The forthcoming 2.5 will work on XP Beta 2. On the other hand, do people
really need Win95 support ? Geez, I would love to be able to drop it!

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas F. Divine [mailto:xxxxx@pcausa.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:46 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Well, I could use a debugger that works on a single machine (e.g., the
notebook I take to a customer site) and works on all versions of Windows
from Windows 95 through Windows XP.

Those are the platforms that I have to support…

That would be nice.

Regards,

Thomas F. Divine

PCAUSA - Toolkits & Resources For Network Software Developers
NDIS Protocol - NDIS Intermediate - TDI Client
http: - http:

----- Original Message -----
From: Moreira, Alberto
To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:35 PM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

> Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
> 80%. :wink:
>
>
> Alberto.
>
> =======================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Jackson [mailto:xxxxx@nmwco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:19 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
>
> Mark:
>
> I don’t think windbg is a “direct” revenue interest either and I don’t
blame
> M$ for adding a stack to Win’95 which wasn’t a direct revenue interest.
An
> OS without network support is very limited. What I blame M$ for is not
> having a quality windbg for all those years.
>
> It is great that windbg (which means us developers) is getting the
attention
> it deserves finally. I just think that if windbg gives us 80%-90% of what
> SoftIce does at $0, then we won’t even pay $50 bucks for a “better”
product.
> If we don’t pay enough for the continued development of SoftIce it won’t
> last in the market place. I’m not even saying that it should, it’s just
the
> nature of the beast. All I really wanted to say was, I’m glad SoftIce has
> been there.
>
> Michael S. Jackson
> xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
> www.netmotionwireless.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Roddy [mailto:xxxxx@hollistech.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:44 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
>
> At the risk of wrecking my reputation by NOT slamming microsoft, I really
do
> not think that windbag represents a revenue interest to microsoft, nor do
I
> think they have any strategy to put softice/numega/compuwhatever out of
> business. Now it just may happen that softice can’t survive a good
windbag,
> certainly numega will have to figure out some way to justify the
additional
> cost.
>
> What I think happened is two things: 1) they actually listened to all of
the
> griping from us sniveling whiny developers, 2) windbag started to get used
> ‘in house’ as new folks moved into NT development and didn’t have the
> cultural bias towards (gak) kdb.
>
> For whatever reason I really LIKE getting !NEW !IMPROVED !WINDBAGs just
> about every other month, with each new release a little bit better than
the
> last one.
>
>
> Mark Roddy
> Windows 2000/NT Consultant
> Hollis Technology Solutions
> xxxxx@hollistech.com
> 603 321 1032
> www.hollistech.com
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:25 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> >
> > $0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.
> >
> > All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it
> > supported.)
> > And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
> > building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job
is
> > tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting
> > help from
> > M$.
> >
> > I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d
think
> > that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could.
Back
> > with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than
> > M$ for many
> > years. Now Developer Studio is much better.
> >
> > I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
> > don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.
> >
> > I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
> > 3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0,
ours
> > wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention
> > I can see
> > the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
> > WinDbg get?
> >
> > $0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.
> >
> > Michael S. Jackson
> > xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
> > www.netmotionwireless.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
> > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> >
> > My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.
> >
> > WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
> > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Giri
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > This e-mail has been sent to you courtesy of OperaMail, as a free
> > service from
> > Opera Software, makers of the award-winning Web Browser,
> > Opera. Visit us
> > at
> > http://www.opera.com/ or our portal at: http://www.myopera.com/ Your
free
> > e-mail
> > account is waiting at: http://www.operamail.com/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > —
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> >
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34

Hmmm " technical superiority " … when was the last time you attempted to
debug a boot driver that loads before the SoftIce driver? I’ve never done
that so there MIGHT be a way to do it. But then I could NEVER justify to
myself or my employer that Sissies “technical superiority”, justified the
cost, when the money was far better spent on dual CPU hardware.

If anything, for a while, SoftIce had superior support …but never
“technical superiority” … oh … well … for a while it DID work while
WinDbg had problems … until the next release of NT … or Visual C …

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@huntconsulting.com
[mailto:xxxxx@huntconsulting.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 8:21 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Amen to that. I don’t begrudge the money I’ve paid Numega
over the years to
get a technically superior product.

Ric Hunt
Hunt Consulting

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael
Jackson
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

$0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of
reality.

All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t
call it supported.)
And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying
customers by
building a debugger for a closed operating system. You
think your job is
tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t
getting help from
M$.

I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for
SoftIce, I’d think
that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone
else could. Back
with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better
than M$ for many
years. Now Developer Studio is much better.

I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce
terrible. I
don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.

I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for
DOS and Win
3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with
Win’95 at $0, ours
wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting
attention I can see
the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much
attention will
WinDbg get?

$0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent
to Numega.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.

WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce
costs $700+.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
Girish
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or
SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri

This e-mail has been sent to you courtesy of OperaMail, as
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35

Guys , do you really want to turn this issue into another holy war ? Like we

dont have enough of them… I vote for debug.exe as the best debugger ever.

Best regards , Dan

 

I haven’t used SoftIce. And I think SoftIce is the best debugger ever : )

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36

Well, 2.0 was before my time. :wink:

-----Original Message-----
From: Vodicka, Michal [mailto:xxxxx@rkk.cz]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 6:17 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

OK, I will wait for 2.5 beta. What you wrote really terrified me. I still
remember how minor changes in 2.0 destroyed some good things…

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
Veridicom
(RKK - Skytale)
[WWW: http://www.veridicom.com , http://www.skytale.com]

From: Moreira, Alberto[SMTP:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Reply To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 9:58 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

We do what we can. :slight_smile: Seriously, the backlog is going down. Because the
2.5
source’s been changed so much, we intend do a bugwhackblitzfest
immediately
after we square away the new 2.5 Beta 1. Some components have been
rewritten
or outright removed, so we hope that some bugs will become obsolete. But
hey, keep the information flowing! I’ll do my best to oblige.

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vodicka, Michal [mailto:xxxxx@rkk.cz]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 2:45 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Alberto,

I don’t want being rude but could you fix all reported problems at first?
I’m waiting almost year for some fixes…

Michal

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
Veridicom
(RKK - Skytale)
[WWW: http://www.veridicom.com , http://www.skytale.com]

> ----------
> From: Moreira, Alberto[SMTP:xxxxx@compuware.com]
> Reply To: NT Developers Interest List
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 7:35 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
> Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering
that
> 80%. :wink:
>
>
> Alberto.
>
>

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37

> dedicate a card in both boxes for it, as I would have to do that with
1394,

anyway, and I can get NICs for small $, 1394 is big $$$.

The difference is about USD 30 vs. USD 150 - not so large comparing to
SoftIce’s cost.

Max

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38

Actually, symdeb.

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Partelly [mailto:danp@jb.rdsor.ro]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 5:26 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Guys , do you really want to turn this issue into another holy war ? Like we
dont have enough of them… I vote for debug.exe as the best debugger ever.

Best regards , Dan

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39

Correct. Some of it may work, but it isn’t clear to what extent. Would
anyone use XP Beta 1 if Beta 2 is available ?

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 7:36 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

But not XP Beta 1?

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Moreira, Alberto
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:01 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

The forthcoming 2.5 will work on XP Beta 2. On the other hand, do people
really need Win95 support ? Geez, I would love to be able to drop it!

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas F. Divine [mailto:xxxxx@pcausa.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:46 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Well, I could use a debugger that works on a single machine (e.g., the
notebook I take to a customer site) and works on all versions of Windows
from Windows 95 through Windows XP.

Those are the platforms that I have to support…

That would be nice.

Regards,

Thomas F. Divine

PCAUSA - Toolkits & Resources For Network Software Developers
NDIS Protocol - NDIS Intermediate - TDI Client
http: - http:

----- Original Message -----
From: Moreira, Alberto
To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:35 PM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

> Hey, if you guys tell us what you need, I’ll make a pass at lowering that
> 80%. :wink:
>
>
> Alberto.
>
> =======================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Jackson [mailto:xxxxx@nmwco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:19 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
>
> Mark:
>
> I don’t think windbg is a “direct” revenue interest either and I don’t
blame
> M$ for adding a stack to Win’95 which wasn’t a direct revenue interest.
An
> OS without network support is very limited. What I blame M$ for is not
> having a quality windbg for all those years.
>
> It is great that windbg (which means us developers) is getting the
attention
> it deserves finally. I just think that if windbg gives us 80%-90% of what
> SoftIce does at $0, then we won’t even pay $50 bucks for a “better”
product.
> If we don’t pay enough for the continued development of SoftIce it won’t
> last in the market place. I’m not even saying that it should, it’s just
the
> nature of the beast. All I really wanted to say was, I’m glad SoftIce has
> been there.
>
> Michael S. Jackson
> xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
> www.netmotionwireless.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Roddy [mailto:xxxxx@hollistech.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:44 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
>
>
> At the risk of wrecking my reputation by NOT slamming microsoft, I really
do
> not think that windbag represents a revenue interest to microsoft, nor do
I
> think they have any strategy to put softice/numega/compuwhatever out of
> business. Now it just may happen that softice can’t survive a good
windbag,
> certainly numega will have to figure out some way to justify the
additional
> cost.
>
> What I think happened is two things: 1) they actually listened to all of
the
> griping from us sniveling whiny developers, 2) windbag started to get used
> ‘in house’ as new folks moved into NT development and didn’t have the
> cultural bias towards (gak) kdb.
>
> For whatever reason I really LIKE getting !NEW !IMPROVED !WINDBAGs just
> about every other month, with each new release a little bit better than
the
> last one.
>
>
> Mark Roddy
> Windows 2000/NT Consultant
> Hollis Technology Solutions
> xxxxx@hollistech.com
> 603 321 1032
> www.hollistech.com
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:25 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> >
> > $0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.
> >
> > All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it
> > supported.)
> > And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
> > building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job
is
> > tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting
> > help from
> > M$.
> >
> > I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d
think
> > that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could.
Back
> > with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than
> > M$ for many
> > years. Now Developer Studio is much better.
> >
> > I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible. I
> > don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.
> >
> > I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and Win
> > 3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0,
ours
> > wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention
> > I can see
> > the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
> > WinDbg get?
> >
> > $0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to Numega.
> >
> > Michael S. Jackson
> > xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
> > www.netmotionwireless.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net]
> > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> >
> > My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.
> >
> > WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Girish
> > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Giri
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
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40

Gary, can you maybe tell us which boot time driver you’re trying to debug ?
SoftIce loads pretty early in the game, there’s not much that’s loaded
before, and even then, I’m not sure much happens in those drivers at that
time besides DriverEntry processing.

Also, have you tried to use Icepack ?

The other thing is, it is quite possible for a user to hike SoftIce to be
loaded even earlier, the only thing is, the user must know what he or she is
doing, because what’ll happen is that the debugger is going to be loaded
before some OS functionality is available, and whatever portions of the
debugger that use that functionality will of course be off limits. If you
look into it you will find that BoundsChecker loads way before SoftIce,
maybe we should consider moving a subset of SoftIce into BoundsChecker so
that we have a somewhat basic but friendly environment to debug those
drivers that come in before SoftIce is totally up.

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Little [mailto:xxxxx@Broadstor.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 11:12 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hmmm " technical superiority " … when was the last time you attempted to
debug a boot driver that loads before the SoftIce driver? I’ve never done
that so there MIGHT be a way to do it. But then I could NEVER justify to
myself or my employer that Sissies “technical superiority”, justified the
cost, when the money was far better spent on dual CPU hardware.

If anything, for a while, SoftIce had superior support …but never
“technical superiority” … oh … well … for a while it DID work while
WinDbg had problems … until the next release of NT … or Visual C …

Gary

BM__MailData-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@huntconsulting.com [ mailto:xxxxx@huntconsulting.com
mailto:xxxxx ]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 8:21 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Amen to that. I don’t begrudge the money I’ve paid Numega over the
years to
get a technically superior product.

Ric Hunt
Hunt Consulting

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
mailto:xxxxx]On Behalf Of Michael Jackson
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

$0 vs. $700 This math doesn’t reflect my perception of reality.

All this time WinDbg wasn’t being supported. (I wouldn’t call it
supported.)
And SoftIce was trying to make a living out of satisfying customers by
building a debugger for a closed operating system. You think your job is
tuff, try doing what SoftIce does. They obviously aren’t getting help from
M$.

I’ve always been surprised that there was any niche for SoftIce, I’d
think
that M$ would take care of developers better than anyone else could. Back
with windows 3.1 SoftIce handled the thunking issues better than M$ for many

years. Now Developer Studio is much better.

I’d be the first one to point out that the U.I. on SoftIce terrible.
I
don’t mind that it’s character based. It’s just cumbersome.

I worked for WRQ which made money selling a TCP/IP stack for DOS and
Win
3.x, but when M$ started providing a decent stack with Win’95 at $0, ours
wasn’t long for this world. Now that WinDbg is getting attention I can see
the writing on the wall. After SoftIce is gone how much attention will
WinDbg get?

$0 vs. $700??? I don’t begrudge a single dollar I’ve sent to
Numega.

Michael S. Jackson
xxxxx@netmotionwireless.com
www.netmotionwireless.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary G. Little [mailto:xxxxx@inland.net mailto:xxxxx
]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: WinDbg Vs SoftIce

My vote is for WinDbg, version 2.0.0023.

WinDbg costs $0, and is available via download. SoftIce costs $700+.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
mailto:xxxxx] On Behalf Of Girish
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:38 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] WinDbg Vs SoftIce

Hello,

For NT driver debugging which debugger is better, WinDbg or SoftIce?

Thanks,
Giri

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