RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

NTDEV
1

Where do you get the idea that Microsoft never uses them? We’ve had
them around for years. They’re more useful than WinDbg 0.001% of the
time for me. But when I have a problem that can’t be solved with our
debuggers, I go straight to an ITP. (This situation usually comes up,
by the way, when I’m trying to debug the interaction of the BIOS and the
OS, or sometimes when I’m trying to find a driver that shut off
interupts and then began to spin.)

Honestly, there are a few reasons that they aren’t used much around
here:

  1. They only debug x86 machines, and we run NT on a lot more than that,
    even if nearly all our customers buy only x86.

B) They cost us $30,000 to $50,000 apiece, depending on the setup, and
our debuggers can be freely copied. We frequently put multi-port serial
boards, along with 1394 adapters into lab machines, allowing them to
simultaneously debug tens of targets. Then we connect to those central
debugging servers from our offices. This brings the cost of debugging
hardware way, way below what we could achieve with ITPs. (I know some
of you will ask what developing WinDbg costs. I don’t honestly know.
But that doesn’t matter, since we have to do it just to debug non-x86
machines.)

III) They are incredibly flaky when you move them constantly from
machine to machine, partly because you have to know a lot about the
motherboard to properly configure them, and most motherboards aren’t
labeled very well. I debug hundreds of machines per month. Moving my
Arium from one machine to another each time I need to look at it is
physically prohibitive.

Jake Oshins
(Proud owner of an Arium - even though their marketing spam annoys me)
Windows Kernel Group

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: I am going to write a book
From: Justin Frodsham
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:41:58 -1000
X-Message-Number: 42

I would recommend using a hardware ICE unit from American Arium. An ITP

from them or Intel may be sufficient as well. What really blows my mind
is
that Microsoft never uses them… It’s a BIOS developers best friend,
and
it would be awesome for kernel development as well.

-Justin

2

Yes, ICEs are expensive and tricky to use, but there’s no real replacement
for them. They’re important when we’re debugging at hardware level and when
the OS went out to lunch. In fact, that was the motivation that lead
Numega’s founder Frank Grossman to develop a debugger that would sit
underneath the OS and act as a Software ICE - hence the name SoftICE. If any
of you ever did hardware development, you will know that while debuggers are
ok to find software issues, when it come to real hardware level debugging
there’s no replacement for a real ICE. For example, we found several bugs in
our graphics chips with ICEs that we wouldn’t find otherwise. However, a
logic analyzer and a bus sniffer card do a great job when what we’re looking
for is bus level issues as opposed to processor level problems - for
example, once one of our chips would croak when two back-to-back interrupt
acknowledge cycles were issued, and it took us a fair amount of looking
through logic analyzer traces to find it out.

ICEs do things that are hard to do with software, for example, they
timestamp every instruction, they can give you a history of past branches,
and so on - they have access to the processor pins, so, they can tell you
things that the software doesn’t know about.

There’s a kind of a gap between software development and hardware
development here; if any of you ever had to babysit an infant chip, you’ll
know what I’m talking about. When we’re in the business of producing
hardware, software debuggers may not be enough !

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jake Oshins [mailto:xxxxx@windows.microsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:14 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

Where do you get the idea that Microsoft never uses them? We’ve had
them around for years. They’re more useful than WinDbg 0.001% of the
time for me. But when I have a problem that can’t be solved with our
debuggers, I go straight to an ITP. (This situation usually comes up,
by the way, when I’m trying to debug the interaction of the BIOS and the
OS, or sometimes when I’m trying to find a driver that shut off
interupts and then began to spin.)

Honestly, there are a few reasons that they aren’t used much around
here:

  1. They only debug x86 machines, and we run NT on a lot more than that,
    even if nearly all our customers buy only x86.

B) They cost us $30,000 to $50,000 apiece, depending on the setup, and
our debuggers can be freely copied. We frequently put multi-port serial
boards, along with 1394 adapters into lab machines, allowing them to
simultaneously debug tens of targets. Then we connect to those central
debugging servers from our offices. This brings the cost of debugging
hardware way, way below what we could achieve with ITPs. (I know some
of you will ask what developing WinDbg costs. I don’t honestly know.
But that doesn’t matter, since we have to do it just to debug non-x86
machines.)

III) They are incredibly flaky when you move them constantly from
machine to machine, partly because you have to know a lot about the
motherboard to properly configure them, and most motherboards aren’t
labeled very well. I debug hundreds of machines per month. Moving my
Arium from one machine to another each time I need to look at it is
physically prohibitive.

Jake Oshins
(Proud owner of an Arium - even though their marketing spam annoys me)
Windows Kernel Group

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: I am going to write a book
From: Justin Frodsham
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:41:58 -1000
X-Message-Number: 42

I would recommend using a hardware ICE unit from American Arium. An ITP

from them or Intel may be sufficient as well. What really blows my mind
is
that Microsoft never uses them… It’s a BIOS developers best friend,
and
it would be awesome for kernel development as well.

-Justin

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3

LOL… Sorry man. Didn’t mean to piss you off. I worked with the BIOS
team in Dupont and Beaverton, and they (to rename nameless personnel :slight_smile: )
told me that you refused to use them. It would seem that is not entirely
true. I know we would have been dead in the water without them, but that
was BIOS/FW pre boot environment development.

-Justin

PS Any Microsoft employee that has an Arium can surely tell me why I cant
detect a shutdown right?? :slight_smile:

At 07:13 AM 10/11/2002, you wrote:

Where do you get the idea that Microsoft never uses them? We’ve had
them around for years. They’re more useful than WinDbg 0.001% of the
time for me. But when I have a problem that can’t be solved with our
debuggers, I go straight to an ITP. (This situation usually comes up,
by the way, when I’m trying to debug the interaction of the BIOS and the
OS, or sometimes when I’m trying to find a driver that shut off
interupts and then began to spin.)

Honestly, there are a few reasons that they aren’t used much around
here:

  1. They only debug x86 machines, and we run NT on a lot more than that,
    even if nearly all our customers buy only x86.

B) They cost us $30,000 to $50,000 apiece, depending on the setup, and
our debuggers can be freely copied. We frequently put multi-port serial
boards, along with 1394 adapters into lab machines, allowing them to
simultaneously debug tens of targets. Then we connect to those central
debugging servers from our offices. This brings the cost of debugging
hardware way, way below what we could achieve with ITPs. (I know some
of you will ask what developing WinDbg costs. I don’t honestly know.
But that doesn’t matter, since we have to do it just to debug non-x86
machines.)

III) They are incredibly flaky when you move them constantly from
machine to machine, partly because you have to know a lot about the
motherboard to properly configure them, and most motherboards aren’t
labeled very well. I debug hundreds of machines per month. Moving my
Arium from one machine to another each time I need to look at it is
physically prohibitive.

Jake Oshins
(Proud owner of an Arium - even though their marketing spam annoys me)
Windows Kernel Group

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: I am going to write a book
From: Justin Frodsham
>Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:41:58 -1000
>X-Message-Number: 42
>
>I would recommend using a hardware ICE unit from American Arium. An ITP
>
>from them or Intel may be sufficient as well. What really blows my mind
>is
>that Microsoft never uses them… It’s a BIOS developers best friend,
>and
>it would be awesome for kernel development as well.
>
>-Justin
>
>
>—
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: zeppelin@io.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%

4

> ICEs do things that are hard to do with software, for example, they

Sorry, is ICE a logic analyzer or is ICE something much more complex
then logic analyzer?

Max

5

Hi, Max:

ICE may be a computer system with tons of programmable gates (many mang
FPGAs) that you can download whole or part of RTL (Register Transfer
Language) of your chip to it. Then it acts almost exactly like the chip
except it runs much slower than real chip. It allows you to capture exactly
the internal state of the chip in cycle accurate fashion so you can debug
chip’s bug. For complex chip design such as microprocessor, ICE is a must.
Sometime if you have a nasty software bug or nned software workaround for
hardware bug during the processor power-on/booting stage where normal
debuger using JTAG has not be setup, the ICE will be a life saver.

With a known good processor, during the BIOS or BSP development stage,
sometime LED can do the trick but possibley at excruciating pain.

Bi

-----Original Message-----
From: Maxim S. Shatskih [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:50 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

ICEs do things that are hard to do with software, for example, they

Sorry, is ICE a logic analyzer or is ICE something much more complex
then logic analyzer?

Max

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@appstream.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%

6

For more info on ICEs, you can try http://www.arium.com, there’s lots of
info there. For Logic Analyzers, you can try
http://www.linkinstruments.com/logana.htm.

An ICE has a hardware plug, a “pod”, that goes into the processor socket on
the motherboard. You then plug a processor into the ICE’s pod. The pod has a
cable to the ICE’s computer. The ICE can manipulate processor lines, turning
them up and down; it can read them and log what’s going on. So, the ICE
“sees” the processor’s very own address and data lines, and much more. From
the ICE’s computer you can totally control your target processor, stop it,
start it, set breakpoints, single step, and so on, all non-intrusive, well,
of sorts: breakpoints for example are done by comparing the address lines
with the desired break address, no need to frig the memory and insert break
interrupt instructions. The ICE also can detect every instruction that the
processor performs, because it can see the fetch cycles going accross the
system bus.

A logic analyzer is a more general kind of animal: it has the cable, but not
the pod. You can therefore take each wire of the cable and plug it into
somewhere in your motherboard or bus, and you can set “break” criteria with
those input signals, so that the logic analyzer will trigger when something
happens. For example, you could be hooked to the PCI bus and want to trigger
your logic analyzer when you see an Interrupt Cycle, or some sequence of
signals being activated, or when a config register is being written, and so
on.

Logic analyzers are general purpose tools, while ICEs by their very nature
are tied to each processor. So, you have an ICE for the PII, another for the
PIII, another for the P4, and so on - and sometimes even within the same
processor family you may need a different ICE if the wind blows in the wrong
direction. But because the ICE sits between the processor and the
motherboard, it sees all processor level transactions. That makes them great
to debug Bios code and to diagnose difficult problems at hardware level.

Logic analyzer people also sell software that converts a PC running Windows
into a logic analyzer. You connect the cable to some I/O port, and presto, a
PC can be the diagnostic tool for another PC. In fact, you can even homebrew
a logic analyzer, it’s not that outrageous a proposition.

Hope this helps !

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Maxim S. Shatskih [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:50 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

ICEs do things that are hard to do with software, for example, they

Sorry, is ICE a logic analyzer or is ICE something much more complex
then logic analyzer?

Max

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it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately
and then destroy it.

7

Far more complex! It is “in-circuit emulator (ICE)”. During my early
MS-DOS days, Periscope and Atron had ICEs for the 8088 and 286. They come
between the CPU and the motherboard and from other descriptions they have to
have connections to the chipsets so they can see all data and control
signals. They then correlate the data as each instruction executes so you
can see what happened. If you set triggers, it will stop the processor at
some point so you can find the problem. SoftIce is a good product, but
doesn’t come close to a real ICE, but since at current CPU speeds, you need
special static memory (ECL, I think) and very short cable paths, which is
why Periscope went out of business. Their old product was only $5000 or
less and the 386 was the last supported, I think (maybe 486?).

----- Original Message -----
From: “Maxim S. Shatskih”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:50 PM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

> > ICEs do things that are hard to do with software, for example, they
>
> Sorry, is ICE a logic analyzer or is ICE something much more complex
> then logic analyzer?
>
> Max
>
>
>
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yoshimuni.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
>

8

ICE = In Circuit Emulator. The nice ones have logic analyzer like
functionality. Trace buffers etc…

-Justin

At 10:50 AM 10/11/2002, you wrote:

> ICEs do things that are hard to do with software, for example, they

Sorry, is ICE a logic analyzer or is ICE something much more complex
then logic analyzer?

Max

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To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%

9

Hi, Alberto:

Excellent description. In my early years in industry, I used codetap (80186
ICE) to debug embedded system where there is no debugger for the home grown
RTOS. Later I worked at some chip companies where they use multi-million
dollor ICE to debug chip. It also helps debug software since it runs far
faster than software simulation model. Those are all ICEs.

Bi

-----Original Message-----
From: Moreira, Alberto [mailto:xxxxx@compuware.com]
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 2:21 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

For more info on ICEs, you can try http://www.arium.com, there’s lots of
info there. For Logic Analyzers, you can try
http://www.linkinstruments.com/logana.htm.

An ICE has a hardware plug, a “pod”, that goes into the processor socket on
the motherboard. You then plug a processor into the ICE’s pod. The pod has a
cable to the ICE’s computer. The ICE can manipulate processor lines, turning
them up and down; it can read them and log what’s going on. So, the ICE
“sees” the processor’s very own address and data lines, and much more. From
the ICE’s computer you can totally control your target processor, stop it,
start it, set breakpoints, single step, and so on, all non-intrusive, well,
of sorts: breakpoints for example are done by comparing the address lines
with the desired break address, no need to frig the memory and insert break
interrupt instructions. The ICE also can detect every instruction that the
processor performs, because it can see the fetch cycles going accross the
system bus.

A logic analyzer is a more general kind of animal: it has the cable, but not
the pod. You can therefore take each wire of the cable and plug it into
somewhere in your motherboard or bus, and you can set “break” criteria with
those input signals, so that the logic analyzer will trigger when something
happens. For example, you could be hooked to the PCI bus and want to trigger
your logic analyzer when you see an Interrupt Cycle, or some sequence of
signals being activated, or when a config register is being written, and so
on.

Logic analyzers are general purpose tools, while ICEs by their very nature
are tied to each processor. So, you have an ICE for the PII, another for the
PIII, another for the P4, and so on - and sometimes even within the same
processor family you may need a different ICE if the wind blows in the wrong
direction. But because the ICE sits between the processor and the
motherboard, it sees all processor level transactions. That makes them great
to debug Bios code and to diagnose difficult problems at hardware level.

Logic analyzer people also sell software that converts a PC running Windows
into a logic analyzer. You connect the cable to some I/O port, and presto, a
PC can be the diagnostic tool for another PC. In fact, you can even homebrew
a logic analyzer, it’s not that outrageous a proposition.

Hope this helps !

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Maxim S. Shatskih [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:50 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

ICEs do things that are hard to do with software, for example, they

Sorry, is ICE a logic analyzer or is ICE something much more complex
then logic analyzer?

Max

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contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named
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it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately
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10

In-circuit Emulator

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:50 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

ICEs do things that are hard to do with software, for example, they

Sorry, is ICE a logic analyzer or is ICE something much more complex
then logic analyzer?

Max

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@storagecraft.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%

11

RE: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage>hardware bug during the processor power-on/booting stage where normal debuger using JTAG has not be

setup,

Then sorry, and what is JTAG? Is it not FPGA?

Max

12

> PC can be the diagnostic tool for another PC. In fact, you can even
homebrew

a logic analyzer, it’s not that outrageous a proposition.

Hope this helps !

Thanks Alberto!

I had an experience of debugging both my NT4 driver + the custom board
with firmware loaded (not mine but with source) - all from the same
host, WinDbg and the custom debugger by the board’s vendor.

Also - was Periscope debugger (SoftICE predecessor) an ICE or not?

Max

13

They offered an ICE that you could use with the software, but the software
was available without the hardware. They also had a board containing ram
that could keep the debugger on the ram which was configured as a ROM
extension BIOS. This permitted you to get access to the last phases of the
boot process to debug other ROM extensions or just the boot sequence itself.
You had to use a reset switch to reboot and not the power switch. Periscope
had a INT 1, NMI switch you could install. Too bad the company died. One
of the first high tech companies in the Atlanta area.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Maxim S. Shatskih”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:35 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

> > PC can be the diagnostic tool for another PC. In fact, you can even
> homebrew
> > a logic analyzer, it’s not that outrageous a proposition.
> >
> > Hope this helps !
>
> Thanks Alberto!
>
> I had an experience of debugging both my NT4 driver + the custom board
> with firmware loaded (not mine but with source) - all from the same
> host, WinDbg and the custom debugger by the board’s vendor.
>
> Also - was Periscope debugger (SoftICE predecessor) an ICE or not?
>
> Max
>
>
>
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yoshimuni.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%

14

I am having thoughts of: “You know you are a red-neck programmer if…”
:slight_smile:

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of David J. Craig
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 12:50 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

They offered an ICE that you could use with the software, but the
software
was available without the hardware. They also had a board containing
ram
that could keep the debugger on the ram which was configured as a ROM
extension BIOS. This permitted you to get access to the last phases of
the
boot process to debug other ROM extensions or just the boot sequence
itself.
You had to use a reset switch to reboot and not the power switch.
Periscope
had a INT 1, NMI switch you could install. Too bad the company died.
One
of the first high tech companies in the Atlanta area.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Maxim S. Shatskih”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:35 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

> > PC can be the diagnostic tool for another PC. In fact, you can even
> homebrew
> > a logic analyzer, it’s not that outrageous a proposition.
> >
> > Hope this helps !
>
> Thanks Alberto!
>
> I had an experience of debugging both my NT4 driver + the custom board
> with firmware loaded (not mine but with source) - all from the same
> host, WinDbg and the custom debugger by the board’s vendor.
>
> Also - was Periscope debugger (SoftICE predecessor) an ICE or not?
>
> Max
>
>
>
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yoshimuni.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%

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15

OK, I will start the ball rolling:

  • If you think “hunt and peck” is something that the chickens do.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Jamey Kirby
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 1:34 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

I am having thoughts of: “You know you are a red-neck programmer if…”
:slight_smile:

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of David J. Craig
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 12:50 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

They offered an ICE that you could use with the software, but the
software
was available without the hardware. They also had a board containing
ram
that could keep the debugger on the ram which was configured as a ROM
extension BIOS. This permitted you to get access to the last phases of
the
boot process to debug other ROM extensions or just the boot sequence
itself.
You had to use a reset switch to reboot and not the power switch.
Periscope
had a INT 1, NMI switch you could install. Too bad the company died.
One
of the first high tech companies in the Atlanta area.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Maxim S. Shatskih”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:35 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

> > PC can be the diagnostic tool for another PC. In fact, you can even
> homebrew
> > a logic analyzer, it’s not that outrageous a proposition.
> >
> > Hope this helps !
>
> Thanks Alberto!
>
> I had an experience of debugging both my NT4 driver + the custom board
> with firmware loaded (not mine but with source) - all from the same
> host, WinDbg and the custom debugger by the board’s vendor.
>
> Also - was Periscope debugger (SoftICE predecessor) an ICE or not?
>
> Max
>
>
>
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yoshimuni.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%

—
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16

Thanks for the great description; looks like fun.

Logic analyzer people also sell software that converts a PC running Windows
into a logic analyzer. You connect the cable to some I/O port, and presto, a
PC can be the diagnostic tool for another PC. In fact, you can even homebrew
a logic analyzer, it’s not that outrageous a proposition.

I’d love to hear some more detail on this.

-sd

17

> > Logic analyzer people also sell software that converts a PC
running Windows

> into a logic analyzer. You connect the cable to some I/O port, and
presto, a
> PC can be the diagnostic tool for another PC. In fact, you can
even homebrew
> a logic analyzer, it’s not that outrageous a proposition.

I’d love to hear some more detail on this.

A custom board which plugs to the logic it must analyze :-), and
having a serial port on it. Then connect it to a PC and run some PC
app which will talk to the board via the serial cable.

The board/app division of labour is up to the vendor.

Max

18

I wonder if anyone has used Firewire yet ? One of the problems in such a
setup can be I/O bandwidth, and Firewire is great for that.

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Maxim S. Shatskih [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 6:18 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

> Logic analyzer people also sell software that converts a PC
running Windows
> into a logic analyzer. You connect the cable to some I/O port, and
presto, a
> PC can be the diagnostic tool for another PC. In fact, you can
even homebrew
> a logic analyzer, it’s not that outrageous a proposition.

I’d love to hear some more detail on this.

A custom board which plugs to the logic it must analyze :-), and
having a serial port on it. Then connect it to a PC and run some PC
app which will talk to the board via the serial cable.

The board/app division of labour is up to the vendor.

Max

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19

If you carry your ICE in your pick up truck’s gun rack ?

-----Original Message-----
From: Jamey Kirby [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 4:47 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

OK, I will start the ball rolling:

  • If you think “hunt and peck” is something that the chickens do.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Jamey Kirby
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 1:34 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

I am having thoughts of: “You know you are a red-neck programmer if…”
:slight_smile:

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of David J. Craig
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 12:50 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

They offered an ICE that you could use with the software, but the
software
was available without the hardware. They also had a board containing
ram
that could keep the debugger on the ram which was configured as a ROM
extension BIOS. This permitted you to get access to the last phases of
the
boot process to debug other ROM extensions or just the boot sequence
itself.
You had to use a reset switch to reboot and not the power switch.
Periscope
had a INT 1, NMI switch you could install. Too bad the company died.
One
of the first high tech companies in the Atlanta area.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Maxim S. Shatskih”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:35 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

> > PC can be the diagnostic tool for another PC. In fact, you can even
> homebrew
> > a logic analyzer, it’s not that outrageous a proposition.
> >
> > Hope this helps !
>
> Thanks Alberto!
>
> I had an experience of debugging both my NT4 driver + the custom board
> with firmware loaded (not mine but with source) - all from the same
> host, WinDbg and the custom debugger by the board’s vendor.
>
> Also - was Periscope debugger (SoftICE predecessor) an ICE or not?
>
> Max
>
>
>
>
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20

Hi, Max:

JTAG (boundary scan), software developer language, is an IEEE standard for
controlling chip and read chip internal state in a standard way (group of
signals or pins). Its capabilities can be used by chip diagnostic software
(to some extent) and used by debugger. It is not FPGA (Field Programmable
Gate Array). Most logic designer will include JTAG to their design to help
debug their design.

Bi

-----Original Message-----
From: Maxim S. Shatskih [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 6:32 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: I am going to write a book - ITP usage

hardware bug during the processor power-on/booting stage where normal
debuger using JTAG has not be
setup,

Then sorry, and what is JTAG? Is it not FPGA?

Max

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