Yeah, you are right… I dug that hole 
On a rehash, I would not go beyond 50% ( It is better to be wrong for
inquring mind than take a face value at this point )… Even then the native
English speaker’s population would not bump up much. India has quite a
number of languages that are derivatives of Sanskrit, and the
culture/literature/etc. are already extreemly rich on those areas, so for
most of the people there is no incentive(s) to embrace english as their
first language …
-pro
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 12:27 PM, Mark Roddy wrote:
> You seem unaware that your initial guesstimates for literacy rates would
> have embarrassed the lower end of third world countries. Would you like
> another shovel, or are you satisfied with the rate you are digging this hole
> you are in?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Prokash Sinha
> wrote:
>
> > I wish you were right … ( And even if you get to say 50% for an
> > estimate, then you will see that percentage of native English speaker would
> > go down … It is simply a bi(tri)-lingual country ).
> >
> > Of course, I will try to get some solid informations on it …
> >
> > But here are some doubts again …
> >
> > 1) There is no uniform identification ( just like social security number
> > ) thru out India. Some states might have implemented very recently, but
> > 2004-5 seems to be bit early for most of the states. I still think most
> > states don’t have it, so how do I avoid under/over count?
> >
> > 2) In some state Ration Cards ( it is an identification for getting
> > essential foods etc., at a subsidized rate), and some people don’t have it,
> > and some other have more than one…
> >
> > 3) Not all the population survey are based on Computers, and surveyer
> > often don’t show up to remote places ( I had the joy of talking to those
> > people in fairly remote villages ). But what I heard is that these days, any
> > one born in a hospital are recorded.
> >
> > 4) Migratory population from neighboring countries even make the whole
> > plan out the window…
> >
> > 5) Lot of schools in village don’t have the necessary docs to count who
> > came to school and who did not. And often there is an incentive to parents
> > whose kids go to school ( and what I heard, it is also being exploited in
> > some places …)
> >
> > Perhaps things are changing very rapidly in some states, but overall it
> > is still bit slow to adapt…
> >
> > -pro
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Mark Roddy
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I only brought it up because your initial claim of literacy rates
> > > seemed so drasticaly low given my perception of Indian society history and
> > > civilization. So I googled it and it was clear that you were just engaged in
> > > PFA statistics.
> > >
> > > Your estimates of adult literacy were way off from the numbers I
> > > cited. In addition the numbers I cited were for both adult and child
> > > literacy, negating your first response defending your numbers.
> > >
> > > The wiki page cites it’s references for its literacy rates: Economic
> > > Survey 2004-05, Economic Division, Ministry of Finance, Government of
> > > India, quoting UNDP Human Development Report 2004. When doubting (that word
> > > again) somebody else’s referenced data, it is more or less required as a
> > > matter of good form to provide an alternative published source rather than
> > > just claim that ‘you have friends in the business’. If you have better
> > > information please post it.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Prokash Sinha
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I would not contribute to this thread any more ( sorry for one
> > > > mistake here )…
> > > >
> > > > I meant to say that I’m very doubtful about the statistics you saw
> > > > on the web. The current figures could be true, but I would be very careful
> > > > before I take it on face value… What was the statistical procedure, how it
> > > > was sampled etc., etc. I still have few friends from indian statistical
> > > > institute, so it would not be hard for me to kick their rear end to find the
> > > > validity ( and the detail of these …).
> > > >
> > > > On reflection —
> > > >
> > > > I’ve lately noticed that there are lots of
> > > > elementary(primary)/middle(high) schools with english as the medium of
> > > > instruction/communications etc. … But when I ask (again sampling) them to
> > > > speak, read, or write something I see the difficulties they face… I
> > > > understand that speaking could be little difficult for them since the env.
> > > > around them is not necessarily English. But reading and writing should be
> > > > far better ( specially when they start from the begining of their schooling
> > > > )…
> > > >
> > > > Conclusion???
> > > >
> > > > Everyone needs to make a living !
> > > >
> > > > -pro
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Prokash Sinha
> > > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 7:37 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Re:[ntdev] questions regarding MDL
> > > >
> > > > I knew this is gong to come back… 
> > > >
> > > > First, I’m looking at 25 years back ( these are the people now
> > > > hitting the Keyboard hard when they are on KD :-).
> > > >
> > > > I took the current estimated population ( I should have taken the
> > > > population of 80’s).
> > > >
> > > > Finally I need to be careful about the way the statistics are
> > > > produced here. I’m simply tired of debugging anything
> > > >
> > > > And if you look at web for the ‘doubt’ and ‘question’, you will find
> > > > that people in the high tech uses this a lot. There is a guide for
> > > > outsourcing ( whatever ) that spells out a paragraph…
> > > >
> > > > But the main point is — “It is simply wrong to interchange those
> > > > words…” And I am sure I would be in a very very long and boring
> > > > discussion with any native english speaker from India who vouches the
> > > > validity of this interchange …"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -pro
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Mark Roddy
> > > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 5:08 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Re:[ntdev] questions regarding MDL
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Literacy rates in India: Adults 61.3% Children 73,3%
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_India
> > > >
> > > > The googler is your friend.
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 8:45 PM, Prokash Sinha
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Jake,
> > > > >
> > > > > You really got me lost here! You probably have reason to belive
> > > > > that way,
> > > > > and perhaps you studied more on this sphare than what I know and
> > > > > what I’ve
> > > > > seen so far …
> > > > >
> > > > > I would go something along this line though …
> > > > >
> > > > > First what is the literacy rate in India ( and if we want to have
> > > > > a
> > > > > statewide breakdown then for each state ). Here I mean to say
> > > > > those who can
> > > > > read ( and perhaps write ) in their own language(s), and this is
> > > > > not
> > > > > english…
> > > > >
> > > > > Then I would go about ‘out of all those literate people’ how many
> > > > > have
> > > > > english as first language ( what I mean by this that how many of
> > > > > them
> > > > > regulary speak/read/write in english as their main means of
> > > > > communication ).
> > > > > And finally I would go about ‘how many of those native english
> > > > > speaker(s) go
> > > > > on to technical areas as engineering and science’…
> > > > >
> > > > > If you factor all of these, you would be surprised how little
> > > > > would be the
> > > > > percentage figure …
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be surprised if the overall literacy rate is more than 10
> > > > > %. So in a
> > > > > roughly 1,200,000,000 population we get about 120,000,000. Out of
> > > > > these, not
> > > > > even 1% have their ( great grand parents, grand parents, parents
> > > > > are native
> > > > > english speaker :-), so I would knock off another two digits, that
> > > > > gets us
> > > > > to 1,200,000. Most of these people are from Missionary or other
> > > > > schools
> > > > > where medium of instruction/communications etc. are indeed in
> > > > > english…
> > > > >
> > > > > How many of those go for computer science? Very small percentage,
> > > > > since
> > > > > these people are very high in demand to go for Business schools,
> > > > > public
> > > > > relations ( administrative / foreign / and other services ), media
> > > > > and
> > > > > entertainment related jobs where compensation and perhaps the life
> > > > > style
> > > > > believed to be better …
> > > > >
> > > > > So I would be surprised, if someone from those background ( who
> > > > > could say
> > > > > that english is their first language ) and the dialects permits to
> > > > > interchange ‘doubt’ with ‘question’…
> > > > >
> > > > > -pro
> > > > >
> > > > > And finally guess how many are in Windows driver/kernel
> > > > > programming???
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: “Jake Oshins”
> > > > > Newsgroups: ntdev
> > > > > To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List” <
> > > > > xxxxx@lists.osr.com>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 5:00 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re:[ntdev] questions regarding MDL
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >>> No native speaker of U.S. English would express a question
> > > > > with the word
> > > > > >>> ‘doubt’
> > > > > >>> being used to replace the question sentence format.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I disagree with this on the grounds that it assumes that Indians
> > > > > are never
> > > > > > native English speakers. There are a whole lot of Indians who
> > > > > are, and an
> > > > > > entire dialect has arisen that is native to India. It’s no less
> > > > > a native
> > > > > > dialect than the various American English dialects are, and it
> > > > > may have as
> > > > > > many native speakers as those American dialects do (given that
> > > > > there are
> > > > > > more than a billion* Indians.) In that dialect, spoken between
> > > > > native
> > > > > > speakers, “question” and “doubt” are often synonyms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Jake
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Note that I’m using “billion” in the sense that my American
> > > > > English
> > > > > > dialect deems correct. The proper usage in England would be (to
> > > > > my
> > > > > > understanding) “a thousand million.” In England, a “billion” is
> > > > > what we
> > > > > > in America would think of a “million million.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > —
> > > > > > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars
> > > > > visit:
> > > > > > http://www.osr.com/seminars
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > —
> > > > > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
> > > > >
> > > > > For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> > > > > http://www.osr.com/seminars
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > –
> > > > Mark Roddy — NTDEV is sponsored by OSR For our schedule of WDF,
> > > > WDM, debugging and other seminars visit: http://www.osr.com/seminarsTo unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > > > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
> > > >
> > > > For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> > > > http://www.osr.com/seminars
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > > > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
> > > >
> > > > For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> > > > http://www.osr.com/seminars
> > > >
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > –
> > > Mark Roddy — NTDEV is sponsored by OSR For our schedule of WDF, WDM,
> > > debugging and other seminars visit: http://www.osr.com/seminars To
> > > unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> > >
> >
> > — NTDEV is sponsored by OSR For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging
> > and other seminars visit: http://www.osr.com/seminars To unsubscribe,
> > visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
>
>
>
> –
> Mark Roddy — NTDEV is sponsored by OSR For our schedule of WDF, WDM,
> debugging and other seminars visit: http://www.osr.com/seminars To
> unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>