“Bill McKenzie” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>Dumping is illegal, and while they haven’t classified this as dumping yet,
>that is exactly what it is and I am opposed to it. It definitely does
>affect hard working people who are trying to put meat on the table, not
>just me.
>
Then maybe it’s time to convert to vegetarian. I have no problem whatsoever
with free software. What I do have problems with is multinationals and large
coporations wiping out small independent software companies just for the fun
of it. Offering free software very often is not a free choice but an
unavoidable decision for a small company to have a chance of staying alive.
//Daniel
Well then it is either playing poison with poison. That tells it is also
evil ???.
The small compaines are fighting because “Due to huge development in science
and technologies in the recent past, a genetic mutation happend ( my big
bang theory), and that caused a very few people to have a potential to bring
in on an average 365 times the rest of the pack, so that gentic mutation
made some people are extreemly capable, while the rest became extreemly
incapable to almost in moronic stage”. Not surviving with so-called free
software ( more accurately dumped trash ).
-pro
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:39 AM, wrote:
> “Bill McKenzie” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
>> Dumping is illegal, and while they haven’t classified this as dumping yet,
>> that is exactly what it is and I am opposed to it. It definitely does
>> affect hard working people who are trying to put meat on the table, not just
>> me.
>>
>>
> Then maybe it’s time to convert to vegetarian. I have no problem whatsoever
> with free software. What I do have problems with is multinationals and large
> coporations wiping out small independent software companies just for the fun
> of it. Offering free software very often is not a free choice but an
> unavoidable decision for a small company to have a chance of staying alive.
>
> //Daniel
>
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>
> I hate to keep going with this, but your condescending tone forces my hand.
Well, it is just ironical, and it was provoked by all hysterical statements that you made in so far…
You could really stand a good lesson in tact my friend.
Look - you have repeatedly referred to all open-source community with the terms like “morons” and “idiots”; repeatedly said that you hate them; repeatedly said that they all should get shot on the spot; and now you are surprised that you are treated “not-that-tactfully”. Bizarre…
There would be no real time Linux had there not been a Linux preceding it. I know this
is a complicated leap of logic here…
Indeed, the leap of logic is really complicated, taking into consideration that real-time capabilities require a totally different logic of interrupt handling and thread scheduling, and the fact that the system is embedded implies a totally different approach to memory management. In other words, this is, essentially, a totally different kernel that just has its original roots in Linux…
Anton Bassov
QUICK! Somebody check the temperature of hell!! I think… I really really think… that Mr. Bassov and I are on the same side of an argument. Sort of. A bit. Somewhat.
Will wonders never cease? Ah, it’s an amazing world,
“Dumping” is defined as exporting a product at lower than the market price in the country of origin. So, writing software and giving it away isn’t dumping by any definition of the term.
I do agree, though, that some of the applications you cite suck. Subversion certainly sucks. TrueCrypt may or may not suck, I haven’t used it, personally. Even though my company is in the file system filter and encryption business (big time), I think it’s great that there’s a free alternative… this keeps the for-pay players honest and adding value. It gives them something to measure against. From personal experience, I can tell you that OpenOffice definitely does not suck, though it is no longer installed on my workstation. Neither FireFox nor Chrome (both free) suck. Xen only sort of sucks, depending on how you use it… and it’s free. VirtualPC sucks, and I don’t THINK that’s free. VMWare does not suck, and it’s not free.
Linux sucks, and it would suck even if it weren’t free. Torvalds sucks, but mostly because he’s dogmatic and only recently learned how to use a kernel debugger. Stallman sucks too, regardless of what anybody thinks of emacs (…hmmm… does emacs suck? Tough call).
So… I’d say free software – like ALL software – is pretty much a mixed bag of suck and not suck.
I’m sorry to hear “serious software applications” (and operating systems) that are free are negatively impacting your well-being and happiness. But, from my perspective, I don’t see that free “serious software applications” damage the software industry. Not one bit.
Peter
OSR
Bill McKenzie wrote:
It isn’t free if you have an understood quid pro quo going in. And these
two situations are not at all the same. Nobody else gets a free wall except
the dentist. The free software idiots are ruining an entire industry while
possibly doing themselves some personal good. Linus Torvalds has personally
brought my standard of living down cuz anyone who wants to can go get a nice
new real time embedded OS for free. That isn’t goodness.
YOU aren’t important. It doesn’t matter if YOUR standard of living goes
down. What Linus Torvalds has done is made a quality operating system
available to people who might not otherwise have been able to afford
one, thereby improving the standard of living for MANY. That is clearly
of benefit to society.
That model is
also driving the software industry to be a service industry which is a
disaster for something that should be a product industry.
…in your opinion.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> Linux sucks, and it would suck even if it weren’t free. Torvalds sucks,
> but mostly because he’s dogmatic and only recently learned how to use a
> kernel debugger. Stallman sucks too, regardless of what anybody thinks of
> emacs (…hmmm… does emacs suck? Tough call).
>
Peter,
Don’t credit Emac’s to Stallman it was stolen from one of the Lisp
machine companies, when Stallman was taking the beta software from one firm
and porting it to a competitor’s.
–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr
Remove StopSpam to reply
>YOU aren’t important. It doesn’t matter if YOUR standard of living goes
down. What Linus Torvalds has done is made a quality operating system
available to people who might not otherwise have been able to afford
one, thereby improving the standard of living for MANY. That is clearly
of benefit to society.
Sure, but as a group, don’t we bring ourselves closer to the level of ditch digger by reducing the value of that which we create? Do you think the dentist is worried that his services aren’t available to everyone? When your tooth hurts, you don’t have a choice - they’re not stupid.
What IS stupid is a group of people that do something complicated that can’t get it together and figure out how to keep it as something of high value.
My wife asked me the other day if I still liked going to work and writing “codes” on the computer. For what she knows, I’m sitting here with a cypher and a telegraph punching in secret messages to the computer. My friends can’t understand anything beyond the concept that I remove spyware from computers all day at work, like I do for theirs - I’ve come to realize that it’s just easier to let them believe that. If what we do is so far removed from the general population, but yet so important, shouldn’t it be of high value?
I must simply be feeling argumentative today. Sorry/
Without Linux, we would still have BSD (wouldn’t we?), and the world would still have a free operating system… and arguably one of better quality.
I admit that I am now venturing into an arena (that of unix/linux flavors) where I am a dilettante.
Peter
OSR
xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
QUICK! Somebody check the temperature of hell!!
Here is a cool place… and full of Emperors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kaiserpinguine_mit_Jungen.jpg
Every time anybody says “undocumented”, or “no source”, or “it takes
three years to write a filesystem driver”, a new chick is born
–pa
>Torvalds sucks, but mostly because he’s dogmatic and only recently learned
how to use a kernel debugger.
Okay now that is funny I don’t care who you are.
Bill M.
wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> QUICK! Somebody check the temperature of hell!! I think… I really
> really think… that Mr. Bassov and I are on the same side of an argument.
> Sort of. A bit. Somewhat.
>
> Will wonders never cease? Ah, it’s an amazing world,
>
>
>
> “Dumping” is defined as exporting a product at lower than the market price
> in the country of origin. So, writing software and giving it away isn’t
> dumping by any definition of the term.
>
> I do agree, though, that some of the applications you cite suck.
> Subversion certainly sucks. TrueCrypt may or may not suck, I haven’t used
> it, personally. Even though my company is in the file system filter and
> encryption business (big time), I think it’s great that there’s a free
> alternative… this keeps the for-pay players honest and adding value. It
> gives them something to measure against. From personal experience, I can
> tell you that OpenOffice definitely does not suck, though it is no longer
> installed on my workstation. Neither FireFox nor Chrome (both free) suck.
> Xen only sort of sucks, depending on how you use it… and it’s free.
> VirtualPC sucks, and I don’t THINK that’s free. VMWare does not suck, and
> it’s not free.
>
> Linux sucks, and it would suck even if it weren’t free. Torvalds sucks,
> but mostly because he’s dogmatic and only recently learned how to use a
> kernel debugger. Stallman sucks too, regardless of what anybody thinks of
> emacs (…hmmm… does emacs suck? Tough call).
>
> So… I’d say free software – like ALL software – is pretty much a mixed
> bag of suck and not suck.
>
> I’m sorry to hear “serious software applications” (and operating systems)
> that are free are negatively impacting your well-being and happiness.
> But, from my perspective, I don’t see that free “serious software
> applications” damage the software industry. Not one bit.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
> just has its original roots in Linux…
Thanks for making my point.
wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>> I hate to keep going with this, but your condescending tone forces my
>> hand.
>
>
> Well, it is just ironical, and it was provoked by all hysterical
> statements that you made in so far…
>
>> You could really stand a good lesson in tact my friend.
>
>
> Look - you have repeatedly referred to all open-source community with
> the terms like “morons” and “idiots”; repeatedly said that you hate them;
> repeatedly said that they all should get shot on the spot; and now you are
> surprised that you are treated “not-that-tactfully”. Bizarre…
>
>
>> There would be no real time Linux had there not been a Linux preceding
>> it. I know this
>> is a complicated leap of logic here…
>
> Indeed, the leap of logic is really complicated, taking into consideration
> that real-time capabilities require a totally different logic of interrupt
> handling and thread scheduling, and the fact that the system is embedded
> implies a totally different approach to memory management. In other words,
> this is, essentially, a totally different kernel that just has its
> original roots in Linux…
>
>
> Anton Bassov
>
>
>
>
OMG…I was beginning to think I was in a vacuum.
What IS stupid is a group of people that do something complicated that
can’t get it together and figure out how to keep it as something of high
value.
Thank you.
Bill M.
wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >YOU aren’t important. It doesn’t matter if YOUR standard of living goes
>>down. What Linus Torvalds has done is made a quality operating system
>>available to people who might not otherwise have been able to afford
>>one, thereby improving the standard of living for MANY. That is clearly
>>of benefit to society.
>
> Sure, but as a group, don’t we bring ourselves closer to the level of
> ditch digger by reducing the value of that which we create? Do you think
> the dentist is worried that his services aren’t available to everyone?
> When your tooth hurts, you don’t have a choice - they’re not stupid.
>
> What IS stupid is a group of people that do something complicated that
> can’t get it together and figure out how to keep it as something of high
> value.
>
> My wife asked me the other day if I still liked going to work and writing
> “codes” on the computer. For what she knows, I’m sitting here with a
> cypher and a telegraph punching in secret messages to the computer. My
> friends can’t understand anything beyond the concept that I remove spyware
> from computers all day at work, like I do for theirs - I’ve come to
> realize that it’s just easier to let them believe that. If what we do is
> so far removed from the general population, but yet so important,
> shouldn’t it be of high value?
>
>
>
xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
Without Linux, we would still have BSD (wouldn’t we?), and the world would still have a free operating system… and arguably one of better quality.
Did I miss something or do BSD / NetBSD / FreeBSD still exist?
xxxxx@VirtualIron.com wrote:
What IS stupid is a group of people that do something complicated
that can’t get it together and figure out how to keep it as something
of high value.
And - don’t get me wrong, but it will of course ultimately speed the
process - support and help given to people in countries that have much
lower wages does also not help, but gives more fuel to these managers
who tell you “but someone in does this job cheaper”.
Well, what might be equally stupid is to expect that something you
learned as a student will keep you fed for your lifetime.
Life long learning is not a future concept. It is here today.
(As anyone on this list knows. Preparing for Win7 and beyond.)
Happy DDC to the people who can attend.
www.freebsd.org
www.netbsd.org
“Hagen Patzke” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
>> Without Linux, we would still have BSD (wouldn’t we?), and the world
>> would still have a free operating system… and arguably one of better
>> quality.
>
>
> Did I miss something or do BSD / NetBSD / FreeBSD still exist?
>
Bill McKenzie wrote:
> Torvalds sucks, but mostly because he’s dogmatic and only recently learned
> how to use a kernel debugger.
>
Personally I lost all professional respect for Torvalds et al when they
created pairs of kernel files like “ipv6.h” and “IPV6.H” apparently for
the sole purpose of making sure the kernel source can never reside on a
Windows machine. Linus dictated in a forum that it would never be
changed because it’s not Linux’s responsibility to make up for a
“fundamentally broken file system” like Windows. That kind of childish
arrogance and complexity for complexity’s sake is part of the problem
with Linux. IMHO of course
Peter,
I think… I really really think… that Mr. Bassov and I are on the same side of an argument.
I refuse to believe my own eyes, but on this particular occasion it, indeed, seems to be the case…
Torvalds sucks, but mostly because he’s dogmatic and only recently learned
how to use a kernel debugger.
Could you please provide a link saying that he ever became a fan of kernel debuggers. Look - he did everything he could to ensure that 2.6.25.x release did not include support for debuggers, and 2.6.26.x
(the latest stable release of Linux kernel) does not seem to have KD branch either. As he said before 2.6.26.x got released, “I won’t even consider pulling it unless it’s offered as a separate tree, not mixed up with other things. At that point I can give a look.”. However, somehow I failed to notice either “KD”,“debug” or any other branch that at least remotely suggests support for debuggers., or any mentioning of KD anywhere in “Documentation” folder - the only new folder I noticed is “virt” with the code that deals with virtualization…
Anton Bassov
LOL… I didn’t say he became a FAN of kernel debuggers, I just said – somewhat tongue in cheek – that he’s only recently learned how to use one. The inclusion of KGDB in 2.6.26 and his “I can give a look” was precisely what I was referring to. I was mostly just being snarky, and making an oblique reference to an event that (a) that I figured most people on this list wouldn’t even know about, and (b) most of the world thought would never happen.
I really don’t expect him to come out and say “Gee, I’ve been a monstrous asshole for the past 8 years, telling people that single-stepping through kernel code was bad, and that kernel-mode development should be hard. I’m a major fan of debuggers now!”
He’s STILL sucks…
Peter
OSR
> The inclusion of KGDB in 2.6.26 and his “I can give a look” was precisely what I was referring to.
I don’t know if he actually “gave a look” to it, but even if he did, apparently, he did not like it at all - as I told you already, there is nothing in 2.6.26.x tree (at least in 2.6.26.2 version which was the latest one3 weeks ago when I downloaded it - although 2.6.26.3 is available since August 20, I don’t really think it is dramatically different from 2.6.26.2) that somehow suggests that he had finally changed his opinion on the subject…
He’s STILL sucks…
Well, as long as by the term “sucks” you mean “dislikes kernel debuggers”, it, indeed, seems to be the case…
Anton Bassov
> Linus dictated in a forum that it would never be changed because it’s not Linux’s responsibility
to make up for a “fundamentally broken file system” like Windows.
I just wonder what you are arguing about here…
Are you arguing against the plainly obvious fact that Windows file system architecture is fundamentally broken, so that, instead of thinking about manipulating data on the disk, FSDs have to think about their interactions with with MM and CM (what is the point of the latter, in the first place), i.e. with the things that objectively have nothing to do with file system’s actual task, 95% of the time??? Sorry, but this is what virtual file system is meant to be for. However, Windows does not have any - instead, it put some parts of its functionality into an Object Manager, some parts into a Mount Manager, and left FSDs to deal with the rest…
That kind of childish arrogance and complexity for complexity’s sake is part of the problem with Linux.
You really have no clue what you are talking about here - writing Linux drivers is so much easier, compared to Windows ones, again, only because of fundamental fallacy of NT IO model that is, basically, microkernel-based one, despite having all drivers run in the privileged mode…
Anton Bassov