Free Software

> The fact that most free software is badly written is a blessing or we could all pack it in.

Could you please present some gacts in order to back up the above claim - otherwise this is just libel…

Thank goodness Linux is horribly complex to setup and use and there are so many
different varieties of installs and desktops and such.

You know, it would be just a great idea for you to actually try Linux before making any statements about it - otherwise, you are just making a fool out of yourself. As a Fedora Linux user, I can assure you that installation is completely automatic, and using it is not more complex than using Windows. In general, I find it much more convenient, compared to Windows, so that I just cannot imagine myself going back to Windows. Please note that I am not speaking about the extreme flexibility that the command line offers - for the purpose of this discussion I leave it out as some advanced feature that “common” users should not be aware of…

Anton Bassov

“If so, then yes, when I become emperor remind me to shoot you.”

Looking at this as an economist, I would point out that very few things
anywhere are truly free in the sense that they are delivered for truly
altruistic reasons. Peter’s Amateur Radio software is probably the
closest example on this thread of an altruistic effort. Most of us get
something out of the effort. We direct people to our business or other
products, show off our skills, learn something new, stroke our egos, etc.

Free software is not ruining the economy or ruining the industry. Who
is going to determine how much software is “worth”? The emperor? Talk
about ruining an economy or industry. That’ll do it. I’m just not
buying the proposition that free or cheap software alternatives are
bad. If we can’t compete, we find a new gig.

When you become emperor, sign me up for the resistance.

Bill McKenzie wrote:

> I write quite a bit of software for use by Amateur Radio Operators. I give
> it away, as a contribution to the overall community. I should be shot on
> site?
>

I did quite carefully word my argument as pertaining only to “serious
software applications”. Is this software you give out of a commercial
quality and a product that would stand on its own and make a profit? If so,
then yes, when I become emperor remind me to shoot you :slight_smile:

Bill M.

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
>> Bill, Bill, Bill…
>>
>> The Windows DDK is free. You can download it for no cost. That’s a BAD
>> thing??
>>
>> The utilities we write here at OSR are free… we’re morons for doing
>> that??
>>
>> I write quite a bit of software for use by Amateur Radio Operators. I
>> give it away, as a contribution to the overall community. I should be
>> shot on site?
>>
>> Bill? What IS your point?
>>
>> Peter
>> OSR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>

> The point here is “When you say free … it is free and unconditional”.

And this is exactly what free Linux distros are like - they are unconditionally free…

Free samples would be more appropriate… That tells that there is a business behind it that
is coming along to have you as a customer…

No one wants you, as a private individual, to become a customer, simply because, as a private individual, you are very unlikely to make any use of the software that they provide for money. For example, why on Earth woud you need an enterprise edition of Red Hat server for your personal use??? Therefore, if you are a private individual, you can think of it as of free software, and, at the same time, as of a free demo if you happen to be a potential corporate customer…

Anton Bassov

There are way too many things as I said earlier…

It is clear to me that open source ( free software foundation) brought the
market down for some developers. And it also benifits some vendors ( as you
know I hack
open source for unified communication server - ripping the benifit of it
…).

It is also clear to me that it is a platform ( not in the OS sense, but a
general platform to move into different directions than POW (plain old
windows) ).
IBM, a company always believed in propitary software now on to open source
is an example. Google is fighting with Chromium Chrom open source based.

Those who could have afford their time in the earlier days on such projects
now probably having very very exciting jobs ( once again platform ).

These are totally against the paradigm:: A candidate would go to shool and
colleges ( spend money and time, work hard). And expect to have an earning
that makes the life go !!!. Not the free software … to me it is counter
culture like Hipies. Good or bad I don’t know. But if you look my blog, I
said long back
that “I DON’T NECESSARILY ENCOURAGE MY KIDS TO GO FOR HI-TECH…”.

As someone pointed out, we all take the benifits out of here and there… I
don’t deny that.

It just hard for me to belive it is free … I don’t buy it. Perhaps it is
my mindset, but free:: Air, Sunshine, Rainfall are some of them ( still now
…)
-pro

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 5:10 PM, wrote:

> > The point here is “When you say free … it is free and unconditional”.
>
> And this is exactly what free Linux distros are like - they are
> unconditionally free…
>
> > Free samples would be more appropriate… That tells that there is a
> business behind it that
> > is coming along to have you as a customer…
>
> No one wants you, as a private individual, to become a customer, simply
> because, as a private individual, you are very unlikely to make any use of
> the software that they provide for money. For example, why on Earth woud you
> need an enterprise edition of Red Hat server for your personal use???
> Therefore, if you are a private individual, you can think of it as of free
> software, and, at the same time, as of a free demo if you happen to be a
> potential corporate customer…
>
> Anton Bassov
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

> Could you please present some gacts in order to back up the above claim -

otherwise this is just libel…

How can I prove something that isn’t there. It just stands to reason.
Sorry for the lack of gacts. And as to libel?? Please…sue me.

You know, it would be just a great idea for you to actually try Linux
before making any statements about it

Dude whatever, you are obviously religious about it. I have used Linux quite
a bit especially lately…YUCK!

Bill M.

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>> The fact that most free software is badly written is a blessing or we
>> could all pack it in.
>
> Could you please present some gacts in order to back up the above claim -
> otherwise this is just libel…
>
>> Thank goodness Linux is horribly complex to setup and use and there are
>> so many
>> different varieties of installs and desktops and such.
>
> You know, it would be just a great idea for you to actually try Linux
> before making any statements about it - otherwise, you are just making a
> fool out of yourself. As a Fedora Linux user, I can assure you that
> installation is completely automatic, and using it is not more complex
> than using Windows. In general, I find it much more convenient, compared
> to Windows, so that I just cannot imagine myself going back to Windows.
> Please note that I am not speaking about the extreme flexibility that the
> command line offers - for the purpose of this discussion I leave it out as
> some advanced feature that “common” users should not be aware of…
>
> Anton Bassov
>

> I have used Linux quite a bit especially lately…

What??? Are you using free software"??? You should publicly shoot yourself when you become an emperor…

In any case, what, if you don’t mind, did you find so “horribly complex” about the installation process, as well as about actually using Linux???

Anton Bassov

I hate to inform you that ‘free air’ is not so free any more. If you live in California your ‘free air’ comes with lots of particulate matter that costs you when you visit the doctor after it makes you sick. Having just had to go to the doctor a couple of weeks ago to get our (wife and mine) sinus infections treated, I can assure you it is not truly ‘free’. Other locations have similar problems, though when I am back home in Florida I can avoid the smog. The only problem is that there are no device driver jobs in most of Florida.

“Prokash Sinha” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
There are way too many things as I said earlier…

It is clear to me that open source ( free software foundation) brought the market down for some developers. And it also benifits some vendors ( as you know I hack
open source for unified communication server - ripping the benifit of it …).

It is also clear to me that it is a platform ( not in the OS sense, but a general platform to move into different directions than POW (plain old windows) ).
IBM, a company always believed in propitary software now on to open source is an example. Google is fighting with Chromium Chrom open source based.

Those who could have afford their time in the earlier days on such projects now probably having very very exciting jobs ( once again platform ).

These are totally against the paradigm:: A candidate would go to shool and colleges ( spend money and time, work hard). And expect to have an earning
that makes the life go !!!. Not the free software … to me it is counter culture like Hipies. Good or bad I don’t know. But if you look my blog, I said long back
that “I DON’T NECESSARILY ENCOURAGE MY KIDS TO GO FOR HI-TECH…”.

As someone pointed out, we all take the benifits out of here and there… I don’t deny that.

It just hard for me to belive it is free … I don’t buy it. Perhaps it is my mindset, but free:: Air, Sunshine, Rainfall are some of them ( still now …)
-pro

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 5:10 PM, wrote:

> The point here is “When you say free … it is free and unconditional”.

And this is exactly what free Linux distros are like - they are unconditionally free…

> Free samples would be more appropriate… That tells that there is a business behind it that
> is coming along to have you as a customer…

No one wants you, as a private individual, to become a customer, simply because, as a private individual, you are very unlikely to make any use of the software that they provide for money. For example, why on Earth woud you need an enterprise edition of Red Hat server for your personal use??? Therefore, if you are a private individual, you can think of it as of free software, and, at the same time, as of a free demo if you happen to be a potential corporate customer…

Anton Bassov


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

Not really. I just think you sometimes fail to flesh-out and articulate your arguments as well as you might. I suspect if you had started the thread with “I hate Free Software, like they define this in the Open Source community” I would have agreed with you. But, that’s not what you said. You merely said “Free Software”… and I don’t agree that making something for free and giving it away is bad.

Yes. Several people have told me I should charge for it, and there are several thousand downloads of a couple of different programs each.

There are NUMEROUS such example of hobby-based, community-developed, software. My software is merely one small example. I know a guy who’s written a complete ham radio software suite that he gives away for free. He’s rich. He made lots of money in high tech. So, writing this package and giving it to the community is his recreation.

But that’s not what you SAID. You didn’t say "Free softare that doesn’t further the sales of other software. You merely said “free software” – It is 100% undeniable that the DDK is free. It doesn’t cost anything to acquire it or use it, and the applications created with it are yours to distribute as you wish. To me, that means it’s FREE. No charge.

Huh? They’re not “viable in their own right”? That doesn’t mean anything, Bill. They work, by themselves, as computer programs, as intended by the developer. Thousands of people have downloaded them, find them useful, and use them regularly. I think that means they’re “viable”… “in their own right”?? I don’t know what they means, they’re PROGRAMs, they don’t have “rights”.

OSR client-list is long and varied, and includes just about every major computer company, OEM, and IHV on the planet. I dare say, it might even include a “free software” vendor or two. Why on earth would this matter?

Hullo? You’re not a student of economics, I bet, are you. Didn’t go to business school? Actually, this ISN’T why doctors charge so much. And, you DO realize that doctors only pay a very small fraction of what it actually costs to provide a medical eduction, right? They charge so much because of their value-add: Life. You don’t pay them… YOU DIE. Simple equation, isn’t it?

I didn’t argue that this is a good idea, and it’s a lousy analogy. A doctor’s services are just that: SERVICES. Not a product that needs support. Are you saying a doctor who donates her time in a free clinic should be shot on sight?

If you want to change the entire argument to: “The way the Linux / Open Software community develops software sucks, and it’s not good for the global software industry”… I’LL AGREE WITH YOU.

But that’s not what Bill said.

Peter
OSR

> Not really. I just think you sometimes fail to flesh-out and articulate

your arguments
You merely said “Free Software”

I believe it is you who does not carefully read my quite well fleshed out
articulate arguments. I specifically did NOT say “Free Software”!

I specifially stated “serious software applications” which certainly does
not even include a significant percentage of all free software. Now, I
didn’t fully define the terms but that isn’t a lack of fully fleshing my
argument, but rather reflects a lack of space and time. I figured you could
fill in the definitiion being in the industry a while.\

You like to argue with me…you jumped on this without fully soaking it in.

Bill M.

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>


>
> Not really. I just think you sometimes fail to flesh-out and articulate
> your arguments as well as you might. I suspect if you had started the
> thread with “I hate Free Software, like they define this in the Open
> Source community” I would have agreed with you. But, that’s not what you
> said. You merely said “Free Software”… and I don’t agree that making
> something for free and giving it away is bad.
>
>


>
> Yes. Several people have told me I should charge for it, and there are
> several thousand downloads of a couple of different programs each.
>
> There are NUMEROUS such example of hobby-based, community-developed,
> software. My software is merely one small example. I know a guy who’s
> written a complete ham radio software suite that he gives away for free.
> He’s rich. He made lots of money in high tech. So, writing this package
> and giving it to the community is his recreation.
>
>


>
> But that’s not what you SAID. You didn’t say "Free softare that doesn’t
> further the sales of other software. You merely said “free software” –
> It is 100% undeniable that the DDK is free. It doesn’t cost anything to
> acquire it or use it, and the applications created with it are yours to
> distribute as you wish. To me, that means it’s FREE. No charge.
>
>


>
> Huh? They’re not “viable in their own right”? That doesn’t mean
> anything, Bill. They work, by themselves, as computer programs, as
> intended by the developer. Thousands of people have downloaded them, find
> them useful, and use them regularly. I think that means they’re
> “viable”… “in their own right”?? I don’t know what they means, they’re
> PROGRAMs, they don’t have “rights”.
>
>


> OSR client-list is long and varied, and includes just about every major
> computer company, OEM, and IHV on the planet. I dare say, it might even
> include a “free software” vendor or two. Why on earth would this matter?
>
>


>
> Hullo? You’re not a student of economics, I bet, are you. Didn’t go to
> business school? Actually, this ISN’T why doctors charge so much. And,
> you DO realize that doctors only pay a very small fraction of what it
> actually costs to provide a medical eduction, right? They charge so much
> because of their value-add: Life. You don’t pay them… YOU DIE. Simple
> equation, isn’t it?
>
>


>
> I didn’t argue that this is a good idea, and it’s a lousy analogy. A
> doctor’s services are just that: SERVICES. Not a product that needs
> support. Are you saying a doctor who donates her time in a free clinic
> should be shot on sight?
>
> …
>
> If you want to change the entire argument to: “The way the Linux / Open
> Software community develops software sucks, and it’s not good for the
> global software industry”… I’LL AGREE WITH YOU.
>
> But that’s not what Bill said.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
>

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, Bill:

How do we define a SERIOUS software application, Bill? “serious”?

And if you want to hang your hat on the fact that you very clearly said “serious software APPLICATION”, did you mean to exclude OPERATING SYSTEM code, which we don’t conventionally call an “application”??

I think an “X” that’s “given away for free” can be safely termed a “free X” – So, simply substitute “Free software application” everywhere I wrote “free software” above.

Same questions… OSR’s applications are “serious” – They aren’t funny, they aren’t trivial, they’re written to professional quality standards, and they’re certainly useful… that’s all the possible definitions and connotations I can think of for “serious”. So, WHY wouldn’t they count in your jihad?

The DDK is a suite of “serious applications”…

So, I just don’t get your point. If you hate Linux cuz it’s lowering your take-home pay, then say THAT.

I dislike Linux, but not because it lowers my take-home pay… (it in fact raises it!) I dislike Linux because it’s hard to use, a mess, and full of crappy code mostly written by an unruly group of goofs – and six or eight smart guys who can’t be bothered to write comments – many of whom have dreams of glory and think that software is a human right. Which is truly retarded in my book. Get distro X. Apply fifteen hundred patches. Attempt to rebuild. Oooops! Circular dependency… did you get the right packages installed first?? What kind of an operating system is THAT?

Peter
OSR

> If you hate Linux cuz it’s lowering your take-home pay, then say THAT.

Well, he did already… Here we go

[begin quote]

Linus Torvalds has personally brought my standard of living down cuz anyone who wants to can go get a nice new real time embedded OS for free.

[end quote]

Actually, the above claim totally contradicts his previous one about all free software being a crap (as you can see, here he already refers to it as to something "nice "), but this is not the point. The point is, how may Linus and kernel.org be possibly related to embedded real-time systems??? Look - plain vanilla Linux kernel was never meant to be real-time (in fact, in its default configuration it does not even have kernel preemption - if you need the one, you have to specify it in .config when building the kernel), but even when it is enabled, the maximum that it can offer is soft real-time. There are some hard real-time Linux distros,as well as embedded ones, but these are totally different open-source projects that are unrelated even to one another, let alone to Linus Torvalds.

Anton Bassov

Don,

The software that OSR provides again is no charge, but it is certainly not by the current use
of the phrase “free software”. You retain ownership and in most cases you provide binaries only
(if you are giving away the sources, please post the link!).

Actually, the free software that OSR provides is truly described by the phrase “free software”, which has absolutely nothing to do either with ownership or code availability. Before you make statements like that, please go to GNU site and read carefully what GPL is all about - you seem to confuse free software and open source.

I object to the fact that most software out of universities in this country now have a GPL
slapped on it, even though in many cases research grants from the goverment or others
paid for the work.

GPL has nothing to do with money - it is all about source code availability. As long as you don’t refuse
to provide your source, you can compile your code under GPL license and charge as much as you want for your end product - GPL does not prohibit it. At the same time, you can compile your code under a license that is not compatible with GPL, and give away your binaries for free while still retaining ownership of the product and not disclosing your source. This is what OSR guys do - as long as they don’t link against the code that has been released under GPL-compatible license, they can keep their sources to themselves, no matter if they charge money for their binaries or give them away for free.

The bottom line - first get your facts right, and then start objecting…

Anton Bassov

Gawd, I woke up this morning to find an over flowing mailbox, more
posts than a good old slanging match over C vs C++ :wink:

There’s been an interesting mix of religious views about software
libre, interspersed with some good observations regarding the pros
and cons. Since it seems a free for all, I might as well add my own comments.

As a developer and architect, over the last ten years perhaps the
most annoying thing I’ve come across with respect to Linux is that
when designing products the management types that don’t actually know
anything about software stand up and spout the one thing they do know

  • “Linux is free”.

A number of times I’ve seen this as the first and most critical
decision made about a project. The consequences often mount up
considerably leading the same management to ask the question - “Why
are we spending so much getting this ‘free’ software to work ?”

Just like scanning the Bible to find support or condemnation about
entrenched positions such as homosexuality, punishment for crime or
creationism, one can find parts of the Linux project to support
almost any position. The reality is that like most human endeavours
some bits are good, some bits are terrible and the majority is just mediocre.

Even when massaging an ego by contributing to a project to ‘save the
world from evil’ most programmers are typical humans and are
naturally lazy when it comes to things like testing non-mainstream
cases and documentation, hence the mediocrity. Code is generally
good enough for most cases, so no one really cares.

I’m not saying that Microsoft doesn’t have the same problems with the
thousands of developers that they employ. However, a commercial O/S
has economic pressures on it to cover more bases. A bug in Windows
generates major headlines and ridicule, a bug in Linux is under the
radar of most press.

As an engineer I appreciate that quite often Linux is a good and easy
building block to start with. But just like a car designer/engineer
I know that some bits of this off the shelf module are not good
enough to properly run the thing I am designing. Some of the
critical components need to be re-engineered to my own standards and
requirements. (Back to cars: Ford probably has a standard software
package for engine management, but the engineers on the Lotus Esprit
will rewrite more parts for their requirements than those working on
the Focus.)

The argument about Linux and it being free depends on how one is
using it. If you want to appear cool at school or college by
throwing out Windows in order to make an anti-capitalist statement,
then Linux is available to you to run your computer for free. On the
other hand, as a business designing and building products Linux
really isn’t free. For sure, as a bootstrap to a project it is
initially free but then one expends time and money putting added
value in to it that will eventually make your customers eager to part
with $$$. Just look at VMware.

I can understand some of Bill’s frustration about Linux moving in to
the embedded market, it is often a very good starting point for
engineering a device. But it is virtually impossible for someone to
plonk Linux in a device and have the thing perform the requirements
of the device without someone performing value add development on it
to a greater or lesser degree.

This may well have pushed Bill out, but it is the way of the
world. Twice in the 90’s I worked in market segments that at one
time thrived but withered away because the technology moved to where
it was supposed to be - native in the O/S.

The belief that free software will oust Windows from the desktop is a
religious position that I don’t have much truck with. Neither do I
agree that free software is intrinsically evil, though one can
question some of the motives of people wanting all software to be
free as some sort of enshrined human right.

So as an engineer I try to be agnostic and find the best tool for the
job and I can acknowledge the fact that Linux has its place alongside
all the other tools in the box. In fact significant parts of my fun

  • where I can turn from engineer to artist - is getting the Windows
    bits and the Linux bits happily integrated in to a single working product.

The world changes, adapt or die.

Cheers,

Mark.

Mark S. Edwards wrote:

Just like scanning the Bible to find support or condemnation about
entrenched positions such as homosexuality, punishment for crime
or creationism,

Just so you know, the Bible is totally clear on all of these points.

At 13:55 04/09/2008, xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:

Mark S. Edwards wrote:

> Just like scanning the Bible to find support or condemnation about
> entrenched positions such as homosexuality, punishment for crime
> or creationism,

Just so you know, the Bible is totally clear on all of these points.

I prefer the works of the Great Spaghetti Monster.

Mark

Like I say given the limits of space and time I quite obviously did not
define “serious software applications” although this clearly distinguishes
my statement from all free software. And yes an operating system is
obviously an application?? Didn’t know that was going to be a debate.

So, you could have simply chosen to ask for clarification. Instead you
assumed. Its okay really, I am getting used to it:

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.development.device.drivers/browse_thread/thread/db4b7ae97777f39f/4dbb771a98820d6f?hl=en&lnk=st&q=Buzzzz!++Sorry%2C+that's+NOT+correct.+#4dbb771a98820d6f

So, I just don’t get your point. If you hate Linux cuz it’s lowering your
take-home pay, then say THAT.

I hate all serious software applications that are free I said it already.
The argument is quite simple really. Examples: Subversion, CVS, TrueCrypt,
Linux, probably hundreds of others which is why I classified them all as
serious software applications. I knew that anyone who had been in software
more than a day would know exactly what I was talking about. My offhand
comment really didn’t require more precision…but hey flame on.

I hate them because no one should be able to give out something like that
for free. Dumping is illegal, and while they haven’t classified this as
dumping yet, that is exactly what it is and I am opposed to it. It
definitely does affect hard working people who are trying to put meat on the
table, not just me.

I also hate them because all of these cheap companies decide to go with
Subversion (OMG YUCK!) versus real professional tools like Perforce (used by
some of the biggest software companies: Microsoft, Google, etc.) because
they are “free”. I get stuck having to use this crap. I keep finding it
difficult to type well enough to check in code while holding my nose from
the stench of it.

There are dozens of other reasons I hate them, but why catalog all of
that…it was a mere comment.

BTW, I just made an offhand comment on free stuff when someone else brought
it up…wasn’t trying to incite a riot.

We could drop the condescension level just a touch:

Buzzzz! Sorry, that’s NOT correct.
Bill, Bill, Bill…

But hey whatever.

Bill M.

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, Bill:
>
>


>
> How do we define a SERIOUS software application, Bill? “serious”?
>
> And if you want to hang your hat on the fact that you very clearly said
> “serious software APPLICATION”, did you mean to exclude OPERATING SYSTEM
> code, which we don’t conventionally call an “application”??
>
> I think an “X” that’s “given away for free” can be safely termed a “free
> X” – So, simply substitute “Free software application” everywhere I
> wrote “free software” above.
>
> Same questions… OSR’s applications are “serious” – They aren’t funny,
> they aren’t trivial, they’re written to professional quality standards,
> and they’re certainly useful… that’s all the possible definitions and
> connotations I can think of for “serious”. So, WHY wouldn’t they count in
> your jihad?
>
> The DDK is a suite of “serious applications”…
>
> So, I just don’t get your point. If you hate Linux cuz it’s lowering your
> take-home pay, then say THAT.
>
> I dislike Linux, but not because it lowers my take-home pay… (it in fact
> raises it!) I dislike Linux because it’s hard to use, a mess, and full of
> crappy code mostly written by an unruly group of goofs – and six or eight
> smart guys who can’t be bothered to write comments – many of whom have
> dreams of glory and think that software is a human right. Which is truly
> retarded in my book. Get distro X. Apply fifteen hundred patches.
> Attempt to rebuild. Oooops! Circular dependency… did you get the right
> packages installed first?? What kind of an operating system is THAT?
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>

> …especially taking into consideration the fact that he just cannot have

any reasonable argument, for understandable reasons - it is obvious that
he started this thread for the sole purpose of provoking emotional
response…

Oh…glad you are a mind reader now. How nice for you.

Bill M.

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>> Sorry, Bill. I’m not buying into your argument one inch or one iota.
>
>
> …especially taking into consideration the fact that he just cannot have
> any reasonable argument, for understandable reasons - it is obvious that
> he started this thread for the sole purpose of provoking emotional
> response…
>
>> You want to compete with free software? Create a MASSIVELY better
>> value-add with your
>> software for pay.
>
> Actually, this is EXACTLY what open source guys do - for example, free
> Fedora is sponsored
> by Red Hat that offers RHEL (which is not free); Lynux (free open-source
> soft -realtime system) is sponsored by LYNX Corporation that produces LYNX
> (hard real-time system with access to the sources costing around 50K),
> etc,etc,etc. This is just a different business model that, ironically, is
> used by MSFT as well. For example, you can read Word docs with Word Reader
> (which is free), but if you want to be able to modify them you have to buy
> MSFT Word. The same story applies to the open source -although you can
> get limited version of a product for free, the full-blown one is going to
> cost you money///
>
>
> Anton Bassov
>

Bill McKenzie wrote:

That model is also driving the software industry to be a service
industry which is a disaster for something that should be a product
industry.

Misconception alert!

(a) For developers, the software industry *is* a service industry.
You provide your time/expertise/effort and are paid for it.
This is comparable to doctors, craftsmen, architects, etc.

(b) For software producers, a lot has changed. In former times they
could make big bucks by copying one product a million times (which was
extremely cheap compared to the sales price) and distributing it.

But even today with “free” alternatives (like OpenOffcie.org) to
mass-market products (like MS Office), companies (like MS) still manage
to charge hundreds of dollars for one SKU. And people still buy it.
How comes? IMO managers realize that “free” still means they need
compatibility, support and training, so the initial purchase price is
not that all-important.

And the student or pricate person who does not need an “Office” package
for use at home can trade money for a bit more time and effort and get
something usable for free.
If you don’t count the magazines, books, evening courses, etc. that
teach them how to install and use it properly.
So what was exactly killed by “free” software here?

Yes, “free” software, piracy and easy access to information via the
internet (cf. Google) have certainly led to much tighter markets for
mediocre and overpriced standard software. People compare more and walk
away from overpriced and cumbersone “solutions”.

Access to cheap labour in other countries has led and will lead to a
downfall in prices for more specialized products.
On the other hand you probably do like to be able to buy a
workstation-grade PC for less than $1000 today, don’t you?

Bill, people like Torvalds are certainly not your problem, but it would
be interesting lo learn what it is that makes you so bitter.

I hate to keep going with this, but your condescending tone forces my hand.
You could really stand a good lesson in tact my friend. I didn’t just start
in this industry yesterday.

Actually, the above claim totally contradicts his previous one about all
free software being a crap (as you can see, here he already refers to it
as to

How so? Just because this software is crap doesn’t mean people don’t use
it. Do you think companies actually know what they are getting when they go
for free software? Do you think most companies take the time to investigate
this deeply? Have you worked in very many companies?

The point is, how may Linus and kernel.org be possibly related to embedded
real-time systems???

I am going to assume here that you have heard of real time Linux. There
would be no real time Linux had there not been a Linux preceding it. I know
this is a complicated leap of logic here… but I made the mistake of
assuming you could bridge the gap.

No Linus Torvalds, no real time Linux.

Bill M.

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>> If you hate Linux cuz it’s lowering your take-home pay, then say THAT.
>
> Well, he did already… Here we go
>
> [begin quote]
>
> Linus Torvalds has personally brought my standard of living down cuz
> anyone who wants to can go get a nice new real time embedded OS for free.
>
> [end quote]
>
>
> Actually, the above claim totally contradicts his previous one about all
> free software being a crap (as you can see, here he already refers to it
> as to something "nice "), but this is not the point. The point is, how may
> Linus and kernel.org be possibly related to embedded real-time systems???
> Look - plain vanilla Linux kernel was never meant to be real-time (in
> fact, in its default configuration it does not even have kernel
> preemption - if you need the one, you have to specify it in .config when
> building the kernel), but even when it is enabled, the maximum that it can
> offer is soft real-time. There are some hard real-time Linux distros,as
> well as embedded ones, but these are totally different open-source
> projects that are unrelated even to one another, let alone to Linus
> Torvalds.
>
>
> Anton Bassov
>

> And yes an operating system is obviously an application??

I am not sure you have ever heard of it, but the main two functions of the OS are resource management and hardware abstraction. Therefore, the OS is obviously NOT an application…

Didn’t know that was going to be a debate.

It depends on your target audience. If you say it in front of technically ignorant project managers/web designers/.NET “gurus”, apparently, there will be no debate - they’ve got no clue about it anyway. However, you said it in a NG that targets system-level developers. No wonder that your statement was “misunderstood” here…

I hate them because no one should be able to give out something like that for free.

Hold on - you are not yet an emperor, are you??? Therefore, I am afraid your are just not (yet) in a position to tell people what they SHOULD do with their OWN source and binaries - let’s wait until you become the one, and, at this point, we will listen to what you say…

Dumping is illegal, and while they haven’t classified this as dumping yet…

Well, I am afraid this task is a bit too tough even for some certain entity from Redmond - I am afraid they will have to wait until you become an emperor…

It definitely does affect hard working people who are trying to put meat on the table, not just me.

Well, it does affect crapware developers that are accustomed to selling their crap easily simply because people have no other alternative. They are accustomed to being monopolists, and when they see that their monopolist position is being threatened they are not happy at all. At this point they resort to various “smear campaigns”, try to force OEMs in some certain jurisdictions to put their crap on newly-produced machines, etc,etc,etc. However, it does not affect those who are able to offer software of added value. For example, look at VMWare - their software that is capable to host a desktop guest OS is not free at all (although server edition is free), and this is true for both Windows and Linux editions… Look at Rowley Crossworks - although you can get free QEMU and free ARM crosschain tools from various sources (in fact, you can just build them from the GNU sources, as well as GDB), their IDE for ARM development is not free at all…

I also hate them because all of these cheap companies decide to go with Subversion
(OMG YUCK!) versus real professional tools like Perforce (used by some of the biggest software companies: Microsoft, Google, etc.) because they are “free”. I get stuck having to use this crap.

OK, if I was doing application-level development, I would, apparently, agree with you on this one - indeed, I find MSFT Visual Studio to be a bit more convenient, compared to KDevelop. However, once I do things mainly on the command line, I don’t really care

Anton Bassov