Dual Opteron motherboard?

NTDEV
1

We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a new development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I need it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now I’m trying to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad, with Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended or rejected?

Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I understand correctly, OS should work with no problem but what about special software as SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

2

We have quite a variety of x64 boxes in-house at OSR. The Asus and Tyan
mother boards both have decent reviews, although I would encourage you
to do research (google is definitely your friend here - amazing how
people who build their own systems chatter online) on the specific MB
you are looking for because the features on them lead to radically
different behavior. For example, I know that someone else at OSR spent
a lot of time looking for a MB that would support dual opterons plus PCI
Express and a host of other features.

If *I* were looking for a new system, I’d make sure I obtained a MB that
supports dual core Opterons. Since they are pin compatible and give you
about 70% improved performance, this is an obvious upgrade path next
year when you point out that a small upgrade gives you a quad proc
machine - ideal for testing. :wink:

In 32 bit mode, they are indistinguishable from modern x86 processors -
you can run VMWare, VirtualPC and Virtual Server (in fact, as I
understand it, you can run VMWare, VPC and V Server on 64 bit platforms,
but only with 32 bit clients so far. But be warned: I talk to devs, so
they can say something is done/working when it hasn’t shipped yet…)

Our internal observation is that on the same hardware, the 64-bit OS is
significantly faster. Part of this has to do with more efficient use of
resources (face it, having a 1TB file system data cache is a win over
512MB if you have the physical memory to benefit from it, which most
people these days have). Part of it has to do with the ability to
rewrite performance critical OS sections and jettison backwards
compatibility (in 64-bit mode, no need to worry about existing 32 bit
driver compatibility).

You DO lose some interesting things - no 16 bit applications, for
instance. Drivers can be a bitch to find for 3rd party hardware devices

  • although there is something fun about calling up support and saying
    “you do support Windows XP, right?” And when they say “of course” you
    say “well, my Windows XP box won’t work with your driver”.

FYI: Windows XP 64-bit edition is really the Windows Server 2003 SP1
code base, so testing on XP 64 bit is not quite the same as testing on
Windows XPSP2.

Overall, though, I encourage everyone to dive into the 64-bit waters.
And get used to seeing REALLY BIG addresses in the debugger.

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Michal Vodicka
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 4:26 PM
To: ntdev redirect
Subject: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a
new development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as
I need it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now
I’m trying to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience,
good or bad, with Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended
or rejected?

Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I understand
correctly, OS should work with no problem but what about special
software as SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag argument:
‘’
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

3

Michal,

You can also consider dual Xeon EMT’s with hyperthreading. These support
both 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Windows plus “quad” processors as seen in
Task Manager. Quad processors are required for some WHQL tests on Enterprise
systems and 2 real plus 2 virtual is acceptable to WHQL.

Don’t know about SoftICE. I am slowly giving up on them because of update
pricing. My collection goes back to the DOS days, but the Compuware update
pricing has put a damper on my enthusiam for them.

Check the VMWare site for the latest info on VMWare 5, recently released.

Good luck,

Thomas F. Divine

P.S. Don’t know why Outlook didn’t mark your original message with ‘>’ as it
should. Sorry…

Thos

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a new
development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I need
it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now I’m trying
to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad, with
Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended or rejected?

Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I understand
correctly, OS should work with no problem but what about special software as
SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

4

Hello Michal, I have begun contemplating a near future jump into 64 bit
porting. I’ve been reading up on 64 bit porting issues in the DDK, but
nowhere did I see (at least so far) that a 64 bit development machine would
be required. Would I need a 64 bit host for debugging a 64 bit target (via
WinDBG)? The WinDBG docs mention that host and target do not need to be
running on the same platform. That’s why I’m curious why you need a 64 bit
development machine.

Would there be any other reason why I would need a 64 bit development
machine as well as a 64 bit test machine(s)?

thanks,

Philip Lukidis

-----Original Message-----
From: Michal Vodicka [mailto:xxxxx@upek.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 4:26 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a new
development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I need
it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now I’m trying
to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad, with
Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended or rejected?

Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I understand
correctly, OS should work with no problem but what about special software as
SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag argument: ‘’
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

5

No need for a 64 bit dev machine. I compile all of my amd64 binaries on
my x86. The debugger for the amd64 machine is also running on an x86.

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Philip Lukidis
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:27 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

Hello Michal, I have begun contemplating a near future jump into 64 bit
porting. I’ve been reading up on 64 bit porting issues in the DDK, but
nowhere did I see (at least so far) that a 64 bit development machine
would
be required. Would I need a 64 bit host for debugging a 64 bit target
(via
WinDBG)? The WinDBG docs mention that host and target do not need to be
running on the same platform. That’s why I’m curious why you need a 64
bit
development machine.

Would there be any other reason why I would need a 64 bit development
machine as well as a 64 bit test machine(s)?

thanks,

Philip Lukidis

-----Original Message-----
From: Michal Vodicka [mailto:xxxxx@upek.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 4:26 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a
new
development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I
need
it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now I’m
trying
to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad,
with
Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended or rejected?

Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I understand
correctly, OS should work with no problem but what about special
software as
SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag argument:
‘’
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@windows.microsoft.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

6

You are perfectly equipped with a 32bit machine to develop 64bit drivers and
to use the same 32bit machine for debugging source. But the driver has to
run on 64bit machine, that is going to be your target, assuming that you are
using two-machine config for debugging.

-pro

----- Original Message -----
From: “Philip Lukidis”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:27 PM
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

> Hello Michal, I have begun contemplating a near future jump into 64 bit
> porting. I’ve been reading up on 64 bit porting issues in the DDK, but
> nowhere did I see (at least so far) that a 64 bit development machine
> would
> be required. Would I need a 64 bit host for debugging a 64 bit target
> (via
> WinDBG)? The WinDBG docs mention that host and target do not need to be
> running on the same platform. That’s why I’m curious why you need a 64
> bit
> development machine.
>
> Would there be any other reason why I would need a 64 bit development
> machine as well as a 64 bit test machine(s)?
>
> thanks,
>
> Philip Lukidis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michal Vodicka [mailto:xxxxx@upek.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 4:26 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?
>
>
> We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a
> new
> development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I need
> it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now I’m trying
> to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad,
> with
> Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended or rejected?
>
> Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I understand
> correctly, OS should work with no problem but what about special software
> as
> SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag argument: ‘’
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@garlic.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

7

Thomas,

thanks for the idea, I’ll examine it. Having dual 64-bit with hyperthreading could be an advantage, I didn’t know it is possible. I spend half of my time in the embedded world and evolution doesn’t stop in the meantime :slight_smile:

I also don’t use SoftICE too much nowadays but mainly because I use traces for all the development and rarely need a debugger at all. Anyway, it is good as assertion failure catcher and when one needs to examine OS internals.

I’ll check new VMware. It seems they stopped sending info about updates. Or maybe I had old e-mail address there…

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on behalf of Thomas F. Divine[SMTP:xxxxx@hotmail.com]
Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:55 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

Michal,

You can also consider dual Xeon EMT’s with hyperthreading. These support
both 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Windows plus “quad” processors as seen in
Task Manager. Quad processors are required for some WHQL tests on Enterprise
systems and 2 real plus 2 virtual is acceptable to WHQL.

Don’t know about SoftICE. I am slowly giving up on them because of update
pricing. My collection goes back to the DOS days, but the Compuware update
pricing has put a damper on my enthusiam for them.

Check the VMWare site for the latest info on VMWare 5, recently released.

Good luck,

Thomas F. Divine

P.S. Don’t know why Outlook didn’t mark your original message with ‘>’ as it
should. Sorry…

Thos

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a new
> development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I need
> it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now I’m trying
> to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad, with
> Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended or rejected?
>
> Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I understand
> correctly, OS should work with no problem but what about special software as
> SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@upek.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

8

Philip,

you already got an answer from Doron. My need is a bit different. First, my development machine is rather old and a need for 64-bit drivers is a good chance to upgrade. Second, I prefer one machine development so usually don’t use test machine. My drivers always run on my development machine and I believe it makes them better because I’m the first affected by bugs. This way they’re always under test.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on behalf of Philip Lukidis[SMTP:xxxxx@guillemot.com]
Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:27 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

Hello Michal, I have begun contemplating a near future jump into 64 bit
porting. I’ve been reading up on 64 bit porting issues in the DDK, but
nowhere did I see (at least so far) that a 64 bit development machine would
be required. Would I need a 64 bit host for debugging a 64 bit target (via
WinDBG)? The WinDBG docs mention that host and target do not need to be
running on the same platform. That’s why I’m curious why you need a 64 bit
development machine.

Would there be any other reason why I would need a 64 bit development
machine as well as a 64 bit test machine(s)?

thanks,

Philip Lukidis

-----Original Message-----
From: Michal Vodicka [mailto:xxxxx@upek.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 4:26 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a new
development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I need
it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now I’m trying
to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad, with
Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended or rejected?

Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I understand
correctly, OS should work with no problem but what about special software as
SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag argument: ‘’
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@upek.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

9

Well, you guys aren’t much fun - the poor guy manages to convince
management to let him upgrade his 5 year old machine and you’re on THEIR
side telling him not to upgrade?

There is no honor amongst engineers anymore… :wink:

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Doron Holan
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:45 PM
To: ntdev redirect
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

No need for a 64 bit dev machine. I compile all of my amd64 binaries on
my x86. The debugger for the amd64 machine is also running on an x86.

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Philip Lukidis
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:27 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

Hello Michal, I have begun contemplating a near future jump into 64 bit
porting. I’ve been reading up on 64 bit porting issues in the DDK, but
nowhere did I see (at least so far) that a 64 bit development machine
would
be required. Would I need a 64 bit host for debugging a 64 bit target
(via
WinDBG)? The WinDBG docs mention that host and target do not need to be
running on the same platform. That’s why I’m curious why you need a 64
bit
development machine.

Would there be any other reason why I would need a 64 bit development
machine as well as a 64 bit test machine(s)?

thanks,

Philip Lukidis

-----Original Message-----
From: Michal Vodicka [mailto:xxxxx@upek.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 4:26 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a
new
development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I
need
it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now I’m
trying
to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad,
with
Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended or rejected?

Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I understand
correctly, OS should work with no problem but what about special
software as
SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag argument:
‘’
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@windows.microsoft.com
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10

Well, it is only 3.5 years old and I hope my chief doesn’t read this list anymore :wink:

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on behalf of Tony Mason[SMTP:xxxxx@osr.com]
Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 12:09 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

Well, you guys aren’t much fun - the poor guy manages to convince
management to let him upgrade his 5 year old machine and you’re on THEIR
side telling him not to upgrade?

There is no honor amongst engineers anymore… :wink:

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Doron Holan
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:45 PM
To: ntdev redirect
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

No need for a 64 bit dev machine. I compile all of my amd64 binaries on
my x86. The debugger for the amd64 machine is also running on an x86.

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Philip Lukidis
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:27 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

Hello Michal, I have begun contemplating a near future jump into 64 bit
porting. I’ve been reading up on 64 bit porting issues in the DDK, but
nowhere did I see (at least so far) that a 64 bit development machine
would
be required. Would I need a 64 bit host for debugging a 64 bit target
(via
WinDBG)? The WinDBG docs mention that host and target do not need to be
running on the same platform. That’s why I’m curious why you need a 64
bit
development machine.

Would there be any other reason why I would need a 64 bit development
machine as well as a 64 bit test machine(s)?

thanks,

Philip Lukidis

-----Original Message-----
From: Michal Vodicka [mailto:xxxxx@upek.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 4:26 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a
new
development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I
need
it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now I’m
trying
to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad,
with
Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended or rejected?

Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I understand
correctly, OS should work with no problem but what about special
software as
SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag argument:
‘’
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@windows.microsoft.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
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11

> Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I

understand correctly, OS should work with no problem but what
about special software as SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?

VMware Workstation 5 works just great on Opterons on Windows and
Linux 32 and 64-bit hosts. For now it doesn’t provide 64-bit VMs but
we are working on that :-).

If you really need to run your 16-bit mode app on 64-bit Windows,
run it inside a VM!

IMO, 64-bit Opterons are faster than EMT Xeons.

Dmitriy Budko, VMware

12

> ----------

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on behalf of Dmitriy Budko[SMTP:xxxxx@vmware.com]
Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:32 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

VMware Workstation 5 works just great on Opterons on Windows and
Linux 32 and 64-bit hosts.

What about 4.5 at 32-bit host on Opterons? I already requested upgrade (because of multiple snapshots :slight_smile: but don’t know how long it can take.

For now it doesn’t provide 64-bit VMs but we are working on that :-).

The real challenge would be 64-bit VM on 32-bit host :wink:

If you really need to run your 16-bit mode app on 64-bit Windows,
run it inside a VM!

Hopefully never more. It is bad enough we have to support w9x which is one of VMware tasks (well, there is 16-bit code inside this “OS”).

IMO, 64-bit Opterons are faster than EMT Xeons.

And apparently a bit cheaper. Dual hyperthreading would be nice for driver testing but I guess Opteron is way to go.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

13

Michal Vodicka wrote:

>If you really need to run your 16-bit mode app on 64-bit Windows,
>run it inside a VM!
>

Hopefully never more. It is bad enough we have to support w9x which is one of VMware tasks (well, there is 16-bit code inside this “OS”).

Except you will quickly find that many, many, INSTALLERS are actually
16-bit apps. Windows x64 actually has special accomodations for this
(as well as a recent update from Windows Update).

>IMO, 64-bit Opterons are faster than EMT Xeons.
>

Actually (apologies to my good friends at Intel) that is my experience also.

And apparently a bit cheaper. Dual hyperthreading would be nice for driver testing but I guess Opteron is way to go.

To echo what Tony said: Make SURE that whatever system you buy has the
necessary bios-level support to allow you to upgrade to dual-core
Opterons in the future should you want to. That’ll give you a real (not
hyperthreaded) quad processor, running under XP Pro.

Make SURE that the video card(s) and any other important devices that
you need on your dev box (such as your sound card, if this matters to
you) have 64-bit drivers.

I use a dual opteron system exclusively as my dev/mail/do everything
system, and I love it. I have a single proc Athlon-64 as my test box.
My only complaint is that the bios basically sucks and the system vendor
(IBM) doesn’t seem to have any insight as to what to do with/about it
and no plans to upgrade it to support dual core (which is annoying as hell).

My final piece of advice, such as it is, is to be careful with systems
that have NVIDIA support chipsets, such as the NForce4. I’ve been
hoping to test some of these in our labs, but haven’t been able to yet.
I *am* aware of people have trouble with them in desktop systems.

The 64-bit revolution starts NOW!

Peter
OSR

14

> ----------

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on behalf of PeterGV (OSR)[SMTP:xxxxx@osr.com]
Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 5:07 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

Except you will quickly find that many, many, INSTALLERS are actually
16-bit apps. Windows x64 actually has special accomodations for this
(as well as a recent update from Windows Update).

You’re right, I forgot it. Some things never change.

My final piece of advice, such as it is, is to be careful with systems
that have NVIDIA support chipsets, such as the NForce4. I’ve been
hoping to test some of these in our labs, but haven’t been able to yet.
I *am* aware of people have trouble with them in desktop systems.

Hmm, it seems I should reconsider my choice as Asus only suitable mb has this chipset. Thanks, this is what I wanted to know.

The 64-bit revolution starts NOW!

Tell it to people who insist on w9x :wink:

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

15

Michal,

SoftICE didn’t support any 64bit system until late
2003 IIRC. We started developing 64-bit Radeon video
driver way before 64-bit S-ICE’s release, therefore, a
lot of S-ICE lovers had to switch to WindBag-:). Also
the driver support for amd64 and Itanium was awful.
Neither the onboard gigabit NIC has a 64-bit driver
nor did all other popular 10/100 nics. I had to build
my own 64-bit ndis driver to get my 3com905 online-:slight_smile:
That’s the story of victim of early 64-bit developers
a couple of years ago.

Driver support is much better now, but still, as
Peter suggested, you’d better double check the
critical device such as video, network… I know all
recent ATi Radeon family adapters have decent 64-bit
drivers for amd and Itanium. Even the old Rage128/XL
(mainly on server platform) should work too. For nic,
I would recommend Broadcom’s NetXtreme gigabit nic and
Intel’s E1000.

Calvin Guan Windows DDK MVP
Enterprise Network Controller Engineering
Broadcom Corp. http://www.broadcom.com

— Michal Vodicka wrote:
> We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our
> drivers so I’d need a new development machine. It
> seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I need
> it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is
> necessary. Now I’m trying to find complying
> motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad,
> with Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be
> recommended or rejected?
>
> Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit
> mode. If I understand correctly, OS should work with
> no problem but what about special software as
> SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown
> lmsubst tag argument: ‘’
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

16

Calvin,

good to know ATI has 64-bit drivers. We plan to use X600 Pro. I understand switching wasn’t easy in early phase. Fortunately, our customers didn’t care too much so we could wait until other 64-bit drivers are available :wink: Yes, still it is necessary to check before.

As for SoftICE, I meant using 32-bit “classic” version on 32-bit OS installed at dual Opteron. Theroretically it should work but better to ask, I’ll try Compuware. I don’t plan using 64-bit Visual SoftICE as user interface is horrible for me, even WindBag is better :wink:

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on behalf of Calvin Guan[SMTP:xxxxx@yahoo.ca]
Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 6:03 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

Michal,

SoftICE didn’t support any 64bit system until late
2003 IIRC. We started developing 64-bit Radeon video
driver way before 64-bit S-ICE’s release, therefore, a
lot of S-ICE lovers had to switch to WindBag-:). Also
the driver support for amd64 and Itanium was awful.
Neither the onboard gigabit NIC has a 64-bit driver
nor did all other popular 10/100 nics. I had to build
my own 64-bit ndis driver to get my 3com905 online-:slight_smile:
That’s the story of victim of early 64-bit developers
a couple of years ago.

Driver support is much better now, but still, as
Peter suggested, you’d better double check the
critical device such as video, network… I know all
recent ATi Radeon family adapters have decent 64-bit
drivers for amd and Itanium. Even the old Rage128/XL
(mainly on server platform) should work too. For nic,
I would recommend Broadcom’s NetXtreme gigabit nic and
Intel’s E1000.

Calvin Guan Windows DDK MVP
Enterprise Network Controller Engineering
Broadcom Corp. http://www.broadcom.com

— Michal Vodicka wrote:
> > We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our
> > drivers so I’d need a new development machine. It
> > seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I need
> > it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is
> > necessary. Now I’m trying to find complying
> > motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad,
> > with Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be
> > recommended or rejected?
> >
> > Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit
> > mode. If I understand correctly, OS should work with
> > no problem but what about special software as
> > SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Michal Vodicka
> > UPEK, Inc.
> > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown
> > lmsubst tag argument: ‘’
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@upek.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

17

On Tue, 24 May 2005 22:25:43 +0200, Michal Vodicka wrote:

We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a new
development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I need
it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now I’m trying
to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad, with
Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended or rejected?

Was in the same boat a few weeks ago, and ended with a system based on a
Tyan Thunder K8WE motherboard. Same chipset as the Asus, but is a little
larger (E-ATX vs. a little-too-large ATX for K8N-DL) and features 3*PCI-X
slots, have the ability to run two PCI Express graphics cards in SLI mode
and also have dual Gigabit Ethernet. It does also come passive heat sinks
on the chipset compared to the fan on the K8N-DL. But I recommend a good
air flow in the cabinet, since these sinks becomes very hot.

The board costs more than the K8N-DL, but in my eyes also seems better. Did
also consider the K8N-DL for a while, and the “older” AMD chipset based
Tyan K8W. For a very stable computer for “mission critical” work, I was
recommended to go for the K8W since it have been on the market quite some
time and bugs and “features” have been handled or FAQed. The nForce4 Pro
boards are rather fresh, and still needs some BIOS tweaking. I choosed new
technology above granted stability :wink:

Good sources for information I have found about the K8WE board might be
http://www.k8we.com, http://forums.amd.com, http://www.abxzone.com/ and
http://forums.2cpu.com/. Typically found more information on K8WE than
K8N-DL, but the Asus board was available later on the market AFAIK.

Ola

18

Visual SoftICE supports AMD64. It comes with both SI Driver
Suite and DriverStudio.

Alberto.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Calvin Guan”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”

Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

> Michal,
>
> SoftICE didn’t support any 64bit system until late
> 2003 IIRC. We started developing 64-bit Radeon video
> driver way before 64-bit S-ICE’s release, therefore, a
> lot of S-ICE lovers had to switch to WindBag-:). Also
> the driver support for amd64 and Itanium was awful.
> Neither the onboard gigabit NIC has a 64-bit driver
> nor did all other popular 10/100 nics. I had to build
> my own 64-bit ndis driver to get my 3com905 online-:slight_smile:
> That’s the story of victim of early 64-bit developers
> a couple of years ago.
>
> Driver support is much better now, but still, as
> Peter suggested, you’d better double check the
> critical device such as video, network… I know all
> recent ATi Radeon family adapters have decent 64-bit
> drivers for amd and Itanium. Even the old Rage128/XL
> (mainly on server platform) should work too. For nic,
> I would recommend Broadcom’s NetXtreme gigabit nic and
> Intel’s E1000.
>
>
> Calvin Guan Windows DDK MVP
> Enterprise Network Controller Engineering
> Broadcom Corp. http://www.broadcom.com
>
> — Michal Vodicka wrote:
>> We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our
>> drivers so I’d need a new development machine. It
>> seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I need
>> it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is
>> necessary. Now I’m trying to find complying
>> motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad,
>> with Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be
>> recommended or rejected?
>>
>> Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit
>> mode. If I understand correctly, OS should work with
>> no problem but what about special software as
>> SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Michal Vodicka
>> UPEK, Inc.
>> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>>
>>
>> —
>> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>>
>> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown
>> lmsubst tag argument: ‘’
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>> xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ieee.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com

19

Michal,

You can always stick to the Visual SoftICE command window. The
only thing is, it won’t show up in your monochrome monitor ;-).
But, you know, once you get the hang of it, the interface’s not
that bad; it’s like classical music, it grows on you the more
you use it.

Plus, if you already have DriverStudio, target installations are
free!

Alberto.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Michal Vodicka”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”

Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 12:55 AM
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

Calvin,

good to know ATI has 64-bit drivers. We plan to use X600 Pro. I
understand switching wasn’t easy in early phase. Fortunately,
our customers didn’t care too much so we could wait until other
64-bit drivers are available :wink: Yes, still it is necessary to
check before.

As for SoftICE, I meant using 32-bit “classic” version on 32-bit
OS installed at dual Opteron. Theroretically it should work but
better to ask, I’ll try Compuware. I don’t plan using 64-bit
Visual SoftICE as user interface is horrible for me, even
WindBag is better :wink:

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

> ----------
> From:
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> on behalf of Calvin Guan[SMTP:xxxxx@yahoo.ca]
> Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 6:03 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?
>
> Michal,
>
> SoftICE didn’t support any 64bit system until late
> 2003 IIRC. We started developing 64-bit Radeon video
> driver way before 64-bit S-ICE’s release, therefore, a
> lot of S-ICE lovers had to switch to WindBag-:). Also
> the driver support for amd64 and Itanium was awful.
> Neither the onboard gigabit NIC has a 64-bit driver
> nor did all other popular 10/100 nics. I had to build
> my own 64-bit ndis driver to get my 3com905 online-:slight_smile:
> That’s the story of victim of early 64-bit developers
> a couple of years ago.
>
> Driver support is much better now, but still, as
> Peter suggested, you’d better double check the
> critical device such as video, network… I know all
> recent ATi Radeon family adapters have decent 64-bit
> drivers for amd and Itanium. Even the old Rage128/XL
> (mainly on server platform) should work too. For nic,
> I would recommend Broadcom’s NetXtreme gigabit nic and
> Intel’s E1000.
>
>
> Calvin Guan Windows DDK MVP
> Enterprise Network Controller Engineering
> Broadcom Corp. http://www.broadcom.com
>
> — Michal Vodicka wrote:
> > We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our
> > drivers so I’d need a new development machine. It
> > seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I need
> > it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is
> > necessary. Now I’m trying to find complying
> > motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad,
> > with Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be
> > recommended or rejected?
> >
> > Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit
> > mode. If I understand correctly, OS should work with
> > no problem but what about special software as
> > SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Michal Vodicka
> > UPEK, Inc.
> > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown
> > lmsubst tag argument: ‘’
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> xxxxx@upek.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag
argument: ‘’
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
xxxxx@lists.osr.com

20

Thanks Doron, Prokash and Michal for your answers, I do appreciate it.
That’s great, because immediately right now at my workplace there is a
shortage of available 64 bit machines, so this will help. This will get me
off the ground and started.

thanks,

Philip Lukidis

PS: the original reply yesterday went to Doron’s email through a mistake of
my own. My apologies Doron!

-----Original Message-----
From: Doron Holan
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: 05/24/2005 5:45 PM
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

No need for a 64 bit dev machine. I compile all of my amd64 binaries on
my x86. The debugger for the amd64 machine is also running on an x86.

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Philip Lukidis
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:27 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

Hello Michal, I have begun contemplating a near future jump into 64 bit
porting. I’ve been reading up on 64 bit porting issues in the DDK, but
nowhere did I see (at least so far) that a 64 bit development machine
would
be required. Would I need a 64 bit host for debugging a 64 bit target
(via
WinDBG)? The WinDBG docs mention that host and target do not need to be
running on the same platform. That’s why I’m curious why you need a 64
bit
development machine.

Would there be any other reason why I would need a 64 bit development
machine as well as a 64 bit test machine(s)?

thanks,

Philip Lukidis

-----Original Message-----
From: Michal Vodicka [mailto:xxxxx@upek.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 4:26 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Dual Opteron motherboard?

We finally decided to make 64-bit versions of our drivers so I’d need a
new
development machine. It seems as dual Opteron is the best choice as I
need
it for both 32 and 64-bit development and SMP is necessary. Now I’m
trying
to find complying motherboard. Has anybody an experience, good or bad,
with
Asus K8N-DL? Or any other mb which can be recommended or rejected?

Also, I’d like to know how well it works in 32-bit mode. If I understand
correctly, OS should work with no problem but what about special
software as
SoftICE and VMware? Any experiece?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag argument:
‘’
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

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You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@windows.microsoft.com
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