Driver development costs

NTDEV
1

I saw an interesting article analyzing what it would cost to rewrite Linux
(Fedora 9).

In a nutshell, it’s about $53 per line of mixed kernel/user code. The
analysis also has more detail about kernel development productivity, which
may be useful for those of us writing kernel Windows code. It uses the
formula person-months = 4.64607 * (KSLOC**1.12)), which on small projects
works out to about 2300 lines of code per person-year. This seems pretty
pessimistic, although by the time you count testing and debugging to the
point of highly stable code, maybe isn’t that unrealistic.

http://www.linuxfoundation.org/publications/estimatinglinux.php

Jan

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2

I just wonder what Bill is about to say…

Anton Bassov

3

Interesting article!

I think about a month or two ago, there was an article on Linux Journal
about how IBM and NASA came up with a massively parallel server
computing that happens to have the highest metric ( just one metric)
FLOPS …

I hope someday the computing really goes to net… Consumers buys only
presentation manager/device. If the quality does not satisfy, they
return the device ( like TV or other electronics )… The reason behind
it is simple consumer model, and as we all know the current systems
model is based on old technology that gave us enough troubles over the
years. On the server side, let the IT people decide what is/are best for
them…

That is my less than 2 cents.

-pro

Jan Bottorff wrote:

I saw an interesting article analyzing what it would cost to rewrite Linux
(Fedora 9).

In a nutshell, it’s about $53 per line of mixed kernel/user code. The
analysis also has more detail about kernel development productivity, which
may be useful for those of us writing kernel Windows code. It uses the
formula person-months = 4.64607 * (KSLOC**1.12)), which on small projects
works out to about 2300 lines of code per person-year. This seems pretty
pessimistic, although by the time you count testing and debugging to the
point of highly stable code, maybe isn’t that unrealistic.

http://www.linuxfoundation.org/publications/estimatinglinux.php

Jan

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3550 (20081023) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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4

Prokash Sinha wrote:

Interesting article!

I think about a month or two ago, there was an article on Linux
Journal about how IBM and NASA came up with a massively parallel
server computing that happens to have the highest metric ( just one
metric) FLOPS …

There was an announcement this week that IBM has successfully sustained
one petaFLOPS. That’s a lot of cycles, by golly.

I hope someday the computing really goes to net… Consumers buys only
presentation manager/device. If the quality does not satisfy, they
return the device ( like TV or other electronics )… The reason
behind it is simple consumer model, and as we all know the current
systems model is based on old technology that gave us enough troubles
over the years. On the server side, let the IT people decide what
is/are best for them…

It’s an appealing idea, but that requires an enormous amount of trust.
In that world, who provides the processing cycles? The government? Are
they going to allow me to do arbitrary processing without interference?
Or would the cycles be owned by Phillip-Morris?

I can’t picture a world like that without bringing up visions of SkyNet
in “Terminator”, or San Angeles in “Demolition Man”, or even Colossus in
“Colossus: The Forbin Project.”

–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

5

> Consumers buys only

presentation manager/device. If the quality does not satisfy, they
return the device ( like TV or other electronics )

The reason behind it is simple consumer model, and as we all know the current
systems model is based on old technology that gave us enough troubles
over the years.

If you think about it carefully you will realize that, from the architectural point of view, there is nothing revolutionary here - it is, essentially, just good old UNIX in its classical form, i.e. multi-user system with “low-intelligence” presentation devices communicating with “highly intelligent” server that does all actual job, decides whether a given user is allowed to access given file or do any other given operation, etc . The only difference is in communication media (I assume these devices will be wireless).

Anton Bassov

6

Yes that is clear, that it is an old architecture… But what happens is
that , perhaps the model changes, and consumers wants to just experience
the computing they need to have . How the architectural changes would come
is with the fact that if 10 or 20 or 30 companies fight against each other
the architectural changes would come naturally :slight_smile:

-pro

Consumers buys only

> presentation manager/device. If the quality does not satisfy, they
> return the device ( like TV or other electronics )

> The reason behind it is simple consumer model, and as we all know the
> current
> systems model is based on old technology that gave us enough troubles
> over the years.

If you think about it carefully you will realize that, from the
architectural point of view, there is nothing revolutionary here - it
is, essentially, just good old UNIX in its classical form, i.e.
multi-user system with “low-intelligence” presentation devices
communicating with “highly intelligent” server that does all actual job,
decides whether a given user is allowed to access given file or do any
other given operation, etc . The only difference is in communication
media (I assume these devices will be wireless).

Anton Bassov

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

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7

> Prokash Sinha wrote:

> Interesting article!
>
> I think about a month or two ago, there was an article on Linux
> Journal about how IBM and NASA came up with a massively parallel
> server computing that happens to have the highest metric ( just one
> metric) FLOPS …

There was an announcement this week that IBM has successfully sustained
one petaFLOPS. That’s a lot of cycles, by golly.

Yes it is amazing. But I would also be interested in reliablity ( with or
w/o redundancy etc…). I’m sure they have that as first thing in their
mind, since w/NASA, but would be nice to see some data / analysis on
those.

> I hope someday the computing really goes to net… Consumers buys only
> presentation manager/device. If the quality does not satisfy, they
> return the device ( like TV or other electronics )… The reason
> behind it is simple consumer model, and as we all know the current
> systems model is based on old technology that gave us enough troubles
> over the years. On the server side, let the IT people decide what
> is/are best for them…

It’s an appealing idea, but that requires an enormous amount of trust.
In that world, who provides the processing cycles? The government? Are
they going to allow me to do arbitrary processing without interference?
Or would the cycles be owned by Phillip-Morris?

Yes this is the scary part. But I think there is a need for net computing,
along side with crazy computing ( that we do: love to brag about WIFI,
slick Hard drive, interesting screens, N-way processor, greenness at what
not …). Definitely gov., should not drive this feature. But should open
up compititions. Several companies should go in that direction ( just like
phone de-regulations …), and that would give consumer some choices. “But
never in my life I would understand that IBM or other companies are
picking Linux, because it is better”, but that is a different topic all
together…

I can’t picture a world like that without bringing up visions of SkyNet
in “Terminator”, or San Angeles in “Demolition Man”, or even Colossus in
“Colossus: The Forbin Project.”

Possibilites are there, but could be avoided !

–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

-pro

8

> "But never in my life I would understand that IBM or other companies are picking Linux,

because it is better"

Did you actually read the article Jan refers us to??? Certainly, if you don’t mind waiting at least five years and have spare 5 billion USD that you don’t mind spending you can try to write something better than Linux and make it proprietary, but it just does not seem to be a reasonable approach…

Anton Bassov

9

Sure I skim thru… At least I looked at the numbers you are specifying.

This is an interesting point, ‘don’t spend 5 bln’. But this does not
give us a better playing field. I only look at the customers point of
view —

If I ask couple questions to myself:

  1. How often do I need to update my hardware?.

  2. What are the estimated cost per year / computer.

  3. How easy for novice to use computer ( or that sort) for basic
    computing ( internet, email, news, banking, scheduling etc. etc)

  4. Compare with other electronics ( TV, DVD machines ) etc.

None of the existing model permits real scalability !

For me a free OS, perhaps a free laptop and other things reduce cost but
wouldn’t I be selfish to think that way?

These days, it is so vital to have a computer for every member of a
family that a reasonable model must satisfies all the above mentioned
self-probing questions. IF not every member, at least most household
should have one.

If I had money, I would think about giving hardware for free. For
example, for every kid that goes to school, then I bet I will have few
potential enemy. And I will have the same logic “why do IBM or INTEL
need to spend billions of dollars for their HW?” Seriously, if any
company can provide HW for (let say) $5, I would be dancing on the
street. Then the HW cos will know what does it take to survive!

-pro

xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:

> “But never in my life I would understand that IBM or other companies are picking Linux,
> because it is better”
>

Did you actually read the article Jan refers us to??? Certainly, if you don’t mind waiting at least five years and have spare 5 billion USD that you don’t mind spending you can try to write something better than Linux and make it proprietary, but it just does not seem to be a reasonable approach…

Anton Bassov

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

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10

> formula person-months = 4.64607 * (KSLOC**1.12)), which on small projects

works out to about 2300 lines of code per person-year.

A years of Linux developer (which works on Linux as a hobby) is not the same
as a year of a commercial developer who works 41h/week.

So, there is some doubt in how they counted these years.

–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

11

Maxim S. Shatskih wrote:

A years of Linux developer (which works on Linux as a hobby) is not the same
as a year of a commercial developer who works 41h/week.

So, there is some doubt in how they counted these years.

(A) There are professional Linux developers, working for companies like
SuSE or RedHat.

(B) In metrics, usually you compute “normal” man-years.

So what is your point?

12

Maxim S. Shatskih wrote:

> formula person-months = 4.64607 * (KSLOC**1.12)), which on small projects
> works out to about 2300 lines of code per person-year.
>

A years of Linux developer (which works on Linux as a hobby) is not the same
as a year of a commercial developer who works 41h/week.

So, there is some doubt in how they counted these years.

No matter how you count, it is a significant force. The platform is
built to provide that opportunity for other companies to customize and
source level debugging. Sure there are lots of hobbyist they produce
codes almost daily basis to go to those trunks.

Frankly, who would like just a few companies domination in anything? The
Hardware companies always thinks software is intangible, hence not well
understood about its costs.

From a consumers point of view, I would like to see the value of dollar
is as high as possible, that will drive the Hardware costs higher for
other countries, and that will force some kind of intrusion into the HW
market by small companies outside developed countries… And what is
really the cost of anything???. Then $5 dual-core, wifi, infiniban, and
what not should be available to public … Whole system with all the
printers and other gadgets within $10. Holiday special: buy one get 10
free…

And there should be more companies like Google, Amazon, etc… Sure who
likes to see any domination of anything???

-pro

13

> From a consumers point of view, I would like to see the value of dollar is as high as possible,

that will drive the Hardware costs higher for other countries, and that will force some kind
of intrusion into the HW market by small companies outside developed countries…

This is how it would work if all hardware was manufactured in the US. However, this is not the case - AFAIK, a very large proportion of hardware that is sold in the West is, actually, produced in Asia, although it may have US brand and/or be based upon the US technology. Therefore, the intrusion you are speaking about is already there.

When it comes to software, the situation is somewhat different. Therefore, one can see an interesting trend of proprietary software getting more and more expensive while hardware gets cheaper and cheaper.

Anton Bassov

14

xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:

> From a consumers point of view, I would like to see the value of dollar is as high as possible,

> that will drive the Hardware costs higher for other countries, and that will force some kind
> of intrusion into the HW market by small companies outside developed countries…
>

This is how it would work if all hardware was manufactured in the US. However, this is not the case - AFAIK, a very large proportion of hardware that is sold in the West is, actually, produced in Asia, although it may have US brand and/or be based upon the US technology. Therefore, the intrusion you are speaking about is already there.

My concern here is very limited. I read the article Jan submitted here
on this NG. The claim is that sub $500 dollars laptop or computer is
possible due to open source !. After almost 25 years in the software
industry, I personally feel it is a shame that HW industry does not have
a respectable notion of software. And people who are proponent of open
source would always argue " without open source/free software Google /
Amazon would not have happened". They would argue proprietary software (
of course mainly Microsoft) is the main obstacles to these… To me,
quite frankly it is very narrow minded thinking …

Dynamics of business houses is way more complex than anything.
Competition is one thing every one is afraid of, but no one really wants
to admit. Amazon is a monopoly already, small country style bookstores
are being closed every month. Google is a virtual monopoly all ready. So
when it comes to business, I think everyone should shake off those ill
conceived notion. Let the best players play should be the motto.

---- Yes hardwares are being built in asia , but there is a huge R&D for
HW companies. Also it is ill perceived to say laptops are now below
$500… What about $10 or for almost free. Just think about it. ( So as
I said, if I had money , like some of the Arabian kings, I would start
HW company to produce almost free HW, and I can bet I will have lot of
enemies, and those who thinks free software gave them an edge would
oppose the same free HW. Then take on other industries … Yes it seems
very hypothetical, but you never know :-).

On the otherhand, software ( specially proprietary) also being built
outside of US, and there is also a huge R & D cost to bear.

Time is money. So if people can spend lot of time to build a platform,
that can change the software model, then I think there should be a great
effort to change the hardware model too…

Personally beggars can’t be chooser, so I don’t have much of a choice
but to keep plugging in with keyboard :-).

When it comes to software, the situation is somewhat different. Therefore, one can see an interesting trend of proprietary software getting more and more expensive while hardware gets cheaper and cheaper.

Once someone has enough market share, situation can be different. Also
subscription based or net based computing would be another interesting
propositions ( where those intelligent servers would have resources pool
to reduce HW market share, specially when virtualization become really
mature ).

-pro

Anton Bassov

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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15

Pleaseeee allow me to hijack this thread :slight_smile:

The claim is that sub $500 dollars laptop or computer is possible due
to open source !.

http://laptopgiving.org/en/software-and-interface.php

100 $ laptop :stuck_out_tongue:

http://laptopgiving.org/en/vision.php

goddman thing got a bicycle pump to generate power and run in remote
places that dont have electiricity anywhere near :stuck_out_tongue:

On 10/27/08, Prokash Sinha wrote:
> xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > From a consumers point of view, I would like to see the value of dollar
> is as high as possible,
> >
> > > that will drive the Hardware costs higher for other countries, and that
> will force some kind of intrusion into the HW market by small companies
> outside developed countries…
> > >
> >
> > This is how it would work if all hardware was manufactured in the US.
> However, this is not the case - AFAIK, a very large proportion of hardware
> that is sold in the West is, actually, produced in Asia, although it may
> have US brand and/or be based upon the US technology. Therefore, the
> intrusion you are speaking about is already there.
> >
> >
> My concern here is very limited. I read the article Jan submitted here on
> this NG. The claim is that sub $500 dollars laptop or computer is possible
> due to open source !. After almost 25 years in the software industry, I
> personally feel it is a shame that HW industry does not have a respectable
> notion of software. And people who are proponent of open source would always
> argue " without open source/free software Google / Amazon would not have
> happened". They would argue proprietary software ( of course mainly
> Microsoft) is the main obstacles to these… To me, quite frankly it is
> very narrow minded thinking …
>
> Dynamics of business houses is way more complex than anything. Competition
> is one thing every one is afraid of, but no one really wants to admit.
> Amazon is a monopoly already, small country style bookstores are being
> closed every month. Google is a virtual monopoly all ready. So when it comes
> to business, I think everyone should shake off those ill conceived notion.
> Let the best players play should be the motto.
>
> ---- Yes hardwares are being built in asia , but there is a huge R&D for HW
> companies. Also it is ill perceived to say laptops are now below $500…
> What about $10 or for almost free. Just think about it. ( So as I said, if I
> had money , like some of the Arabian kings, I would start HW company to
> produce almost free HW, and I can bet I will have lot of enemies, and those
> who thinks free software gave them an edge would oppose the same free HW.
> Then take on other industries … Yes it seems very hypothetical, but you
> never know :-).
>
> On the otherhand, software ( specially proprietary) also being built outside
> of US, and there is also a huge R & D cost to bear.
>
> Time is money. So if people can spend lot of time to build a platform, that
> can change the software model, then I think there should be a great effort
> to change the hardware model too…
>
> Personally beggars can’t be chooser, so I don’t have much of a choice but to
> keep plugging in with keyboard :-).
>
>
> > When it comes to software, the situation is somewhat different. Therefore,
> one can see an interesting trend of proprietary software getting more and
> more expensive while hardware gets cheaper and cheaper.
> >
> >
> Once someone has enough market share, situation can be different. Also
> subscription based or net based computing would be another interesting
> propositions ( where those intelligent servers would have resources pool to
> reduce HW market share, specially when virtualization become really mature
> ).
>
>
> -pro
>
> > Anton Bassov
> >
> > —
> > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
> >
> > For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

16

> Also subscription based or net based computing would be another interesting propositions
> where those intelligent servers would have resources pool to reduce HW market share,

specially when virtualization become really mature ).

Prokash, I am afraid you put too much faith in subscription-based services - you seem to believe they are about to basically change the technology. In actuality, they don’t necessarily have to. As I said it already, in terms of architecture it is just good old UNIX,. Therefore, modern Linux is just an ideal platform to set up the whole thing without too heavy expenses. All you need is:

  1. On the client side, Linux installation with kernel module that implements a virtual block device that, instead of dealing with disk controller, forwards all commands to the server over the network. You are able to mount a file system on it, and, in all, respects, treat it as your local disk

  2. On the server side, Linux installation with kernel module that implements a virtual block device (one for each user) that actually provides underlying storage (which can be physically stored just as file on a local file system) , so that, upon receiving the command via the network, it goes to the local file system, rather than to the disk itself, and reads/writes disk sector from the file.

Certainly, you will have to do a bit of work on it on both client and server sides, but there is nothing revolutionary here…

Anton Bassov

17

Prokash Sinha wrote:

The claim is that sub $500 dollars laptop or computer is possible due
to open source !

The claim is probably true - competition makes products better and
cheaper, this is one of the fundamental principles of a free market.

It applies to HW and SW, too. For OS software it works since “open
source” became a sufficiently good alternative to “commercial” OSes.

Note: the term “open source” is unfortunately not a real antonym to
“closed source”: it always has a “free of charge” connotation as well.

Therefore I’d like to use the term “published source” as the opposite of
“closed source”, to be able to distinguish

  • “commercial” vs. “free of charge”, and
  • “closed source” vs. “published source”.

“Published source” is source code that everybody can inspect whenever
they like, and

  • implies easy access (e.g. via download or internet browsser),
  • implies a no-charge policy for this access, and no special need for
    “group membership”,
  • but does NOT imply any right to modify the source code or to use it
    in any product of your own “free of charge”.

“Published source” would still allow everyone to learn about general
programming principles, about the API (if any) and would be helpful to
more easily track down bugs.

(With the Minix source code, the publisher of volume two of the Minix
book set proved that copyright laws allow such a set-up.)

With this definition, “commercial” software can also be “published
source”. Actually, this seems to be exactly what a lot of people here
want - “published” WDF source would be greatly appreciated.

Another side comment: you *are* allowed to charge money for products you
build from “open source”, did you know this?

True, people might not want to buy the product, if your work does not
add significant advantages in some area (handling, ease of use, support,
etc.) but it is possible. (Free as in “freedom”, not as in “free beer”.)
SuSE, RedHat, SAP and IBM prove that some people are actually able to
make a living with the help of open source software.

After almost 25 years in the software industry, I personally feel it
is a shame that HW industry does not have a respectable notion of
software.

Ahem… does the software industry have a respectable notion of
hardware? Could you please elucidate what you mean?

Amazon is a monopoly already, small country style bookstores are
being closed every month.

This is IMHO more a matter of convenience.

Similar concepts happen in the software and hardware development world.
New technology or new business models sets new standards and thus
improve life for “the general public”.

Example: mobile phones. They would have never been successful with a
“you pay $10000 upfront for the phone AND $10 per minute” scheme, at
least not on a mass-market scale.

18

xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:

> Also subscription based or net based computing would be another interesting propositions
>
> where those intelligent servers would have resources pool to reduce HW market share,

> specially when virtualization become really mature ).
>

Prokash, I am afraid you put too much faith in subscription-based services - you seem to believe they are about to basically change the technology. In actuality, they don’t necessarily have to. As I said it already, in terms of architecture it is just good old UNIX,. Therefore, modern Linux is just an ideal platform to set up the whole thing without too heavy expenses. All you need is:

Anton, once you believe in one thing, it is hard to move to other. From
the historical point of view, terminal service is way before Unix ( TSO
is one ). So on this particular thing, it should not matter. Possible
that linux could be the there and windows could be there and OS X could
be there, or something else could be there … But eventually, customers
would be benefited and most of the HW would be back to server firms.

Resource pooling will reduce red-ness and will increase greenness.

  1. On the client side, Linux installation with kernel module that implements a virtual block device that, instead of dealing with disk controller, forwards all commands to the server over the network. You are able to mount a file system on it, and, in all, respects, treat it as your local disk

As if there is no other OSes than can have a solution here :slight_smile:

  1. On the server side, Linux installation with kernel module that implements a virtual block device (one for each user) that actually provides underlying storage (which can be physically stored just as file on a local file system) , so that, upon receiving the command via the network, it goes to the local file system, rather than to the disk itself, and reads/writes disk sector from the file.

Same as above :slight_smile:

Certainly, you will have to do a bit of work on it on both client and server sides, but there is nothing revolutionary here…

Sure nothing revolutionary for us, but for customers, it would be !!!

Anton Bassov

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

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19

Hagen Patzke wrote:

Prokash Sinha wrote:
> The claim is that sub $500 dollars laptop or computer is possible due
> to open source !

The claim is probably true - competition makes products better and
cheaper, this is one of the fundamental principles of a free market.

It applies to HW and SW, too. For OS software it works since “open
source” became a sufficiently good alternative to “commercial” OSes.

For HW, it should be the same! A huge amount of R & D has nothing to do
with production costs, so some of the pioneers should spend the time to
come up with designs for free ( for a rich person like me :slight_smile: to embark
on under $10 systems.

Note: the term “open source” is unfortunately not a real antonym to
“closed source”: it always has a “free of charge” connotation as well.

Therefore I’d like to use the term “published source” as the opposite
of “closed source”, to be able to distinguish

  • “commercial” vs. “free of charge”, and
  • “closed source” vs. “published source”.

Anything free scares the hell out of me, (does not fit the sense of
economics, business and ethics ) perhaps I was forced to take a bunch of
courses in Mathematical sciences that includes: mathematical economics,
managerial economics, statistical mechanics etc. A REASONABLY PRICED
PRODUCT make sense. Some country seems to have way below workers’ pay,
in other words some amount of their labor is free, and used for
business… I can’t digest that, sorry :slight_smile:

“Published source” is source code that everybody can inspect whenever
they like, and

  • implies easy access (e.g. via download or internet browsser),
  • implies a no-charge policy for this access, and no special need for
    “group membership”,
  • but does NOT imply any right to modify the source code or to use it
    in any product of your own “free of charge”.

You may be right, ‘every body can inspect’, but I strongly believe in
‘separation of concern’ and ‘asymptotic theory’. If some 15000 employees
of MS ( out of 70+K, a conservative estimate is 15000 dev and test
people) could not figure out the problems, I don’t think some cursory
inspection will fix those !!!. Also I don’t want to fix their
problem(s), I’m a customer use it or throw it.- separation of concern.

“Published source” would still allow everyone to learn about general
programming principles, about the API (if any) and would be helpful to
more easily track down bugs.

(With the Minix source code, the publisher of volume two of the Minix
book set proved that copyright laws allow such a set-up.)

Mainstream use of computing facility seems to be different from this
approach. Think about other industries, for common people mucking around
with anything is pointless-waste-of-time.

With this definition, “commercial” software can also be “published
source”. Actually, this seems to be exactly what a lot of people here
want - “published” WDF source would be greatly appreciated.

This is a very narrow sub-class of the topic. We had a discussion about
year and half ago, and my main concern was that what did those FS guys
do wrong?. They should get filter manager and other source code since
that area is even much more difficult. Then those working with server
applications they will ask have source access … Now you iterate or
recurse as you like :slight_smile:

Another side comment: you *are* allowed to charge money for products you
build from “open source”, did you know this?
Actually this is where I have a huge problem. No one should be allowed
to charge for open source based systems. More than 90% of the code I
deal with is open source based… But I really don’t look at the
terminologies, legal departments takes care of them :slight_smile:

True, people might not want to buy the product, if your work does not
add significant advantages in some area (handling, ease of use, support,
etc.) but it is possible. (Free as in “freedom”, not as in “free beer”.)
SuSE, RedHat, SAP and IBM prove that some people are actually able to
make a living with the help of open source software.
Exactly, I want HW to be free, the university research should be free
too. Cars are so expensive for some people to make a living – can we
make it free?

> After almost 25 years in the software industry, I personally feel it
> is a shame that HW industry does not have a respectable notion of
> software.

Ahem… does the software industry have a respectable notion of
hardware? Could you please elucidate what you mean?

I don’t think I need to. Seriously, this have been discussed in forums,
journals for a long long time. If you even read some of the discussion
of Ken Thomson, you will find a touch of smell !

> Amazon is a monopoly already, small country style bookstores are
> being closed every month.

This is IMHO more a matter of convenience.
Windows 3.1 was also a convenience for lot of people !!!

Similar concepts happen in the software and hardware development world.
New technology or new business models sets new standards and thus
improve life for “the general public”.
Waiting for free HW :-). At least the chassi, MOBO, CPU , FAN, HDD,
CDROM, SCREEN (lcd preferrable). I will have value add ( mouse and
keyboard ) :-).

Example: mobile phones. They would have never been successful with a
“you pay $10000 upfront for the phone AND $10 per minute” scheme, at
least not on a mass-market scale.

-pro

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20

You really should send those links to Intel chairman, who happens to be a
class-mate of the pioneer here …

Frankly, he should have thought about $10 laptop and it is for everybody (
not just school children of less privilaged kids), and as I said I would
love to see that happen, and HW cos comes and says, it is opening up the
field to play… He did not do that yet, and that is why I still have
respect for the approach – it is humanitarian…

'nough said from my side…
-pro

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 1:31 AM, raj_r wrote:

> Pleaseeee allow me to hijack this thread :slight_smile:
>
> The claim is that sub $500 dollars laptop or computer is possible due
> to open source !.
>
> http://laptopgiving.org/en/software-and-interface.php
>
> 100 $ laptop :stuck_out_tongue:
>
> http://laptopgiving.org/en/vision.php
>
> goddman thing got a bicycle pump to generate power and run in remote
> places that dont have electiricity anywhere near :stuck_out_tongue:
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/27/08, Prokash Sinha wrote:
> > xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > From a consumers point of view, I would like to see the value of
> dollar
> > is as high as possible,
> > >
> > > > that will drive the Hardware costs higher for other countries, and
> that
> > will force some kind of intrusion into the HW market by small companies
> > outside developed countries…
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is how it would work if all hardware was manufactured in the US.
> > However, this is not the case - AFAIK, a very large proportion of
> hardware
> > that is sold in the West is, actually, produced in Asia, although it may
> > have US brand and/or be based upon the US technology. Therefore, the
> > intrusion you are speaking about is already there.
> > >
> > >
> > My concern here is very limited. I read the article Jan submitted here on
> > this NG. The claim is that sub $500 dollars laptop or computer is
> possible
> > due to open source !. After almost 25 years in the software industry, I
> > personally feel it is a shame that HW industry does not have a
> respectable
> > notion of software. And people who are proponent of open source would
> always
> > argue " without open source/free software Google / Amazon would not have
> > happened". They would argue proprietary software ( of course mainly
> > Microsoft) is the main obstacles to these… To me, quite frankly it is
> > very narrow minded thinking …
> >
> > Dynamics of business houses is way more complex than anything.
> Competition
> > is one thing every one is afraid of, but no one really wants to admit.
> > Amazon is a monopoly already, small country style bookstores are being
> > closed every month. Google is a virtual monopoly all ready. So when it
> comes
> > to business, I think everyone should shake off those ill conceived
> notion.
> > Let the best players play should be the motto.
> >
> > ---- Yes hardwares are being built in asia , but there is a huge R&D for
> HW
> > companies. Also it is ill perceived to say laptops are now below $500…
> > What about $10 or for almost free. Just think about it. ( So as I said,
> if I
> > had money , like some of the Arabian kings, I would start HW company to
> > produce almost free HW, and I can bet I will have lot of enemies, and
> those
> > who thinks free software gave them an edge would oppose the same free HW.
> > Then take on other industries … Yes it seems very hypothetical, but you
> > never know :-).
> >
> > On the otherhand, software ( specially proprietary) also being built
> outside
> > of US, and there is also a huge R & D cost to bear.
> >
> > Time is money. So if people can spend lot of time to build a platform,
> that
> > can change the software model, then I think there should be a great
> effort
> > to change the hardware model too…
> >
> > Personally beggars can’t be chooser, so I don’t have much of a choice but
> to
> > keep plugging in with keyboard :-).
> >
> >
> > > When it comes to software, the situation is somewhat different.
> Therefore,
> > one can see an interesting trend of proprietary software getting more and
> > more expensive while hardware gets cheaper and cheaper.
> > >
> > >
> > Once someone has enough market share, situation can be different. Also
> > subscription based or net based computing would be another interesting
> > propositions ( where those intelligent servers would have resources pool
> to
> > reduce HW market share, specially when virtualization become really
> mature
> > ).
> >
> >
> > -pro
> >
> > > Anton Bassov
> > >
> > > —
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> > >
> > > For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > —
> > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
> >
> > For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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> >
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> >
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
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