I guess everyone will see in January, at the CES.
Peter
OSR
They would really have to clean up the code and remove a lot of bloat and overhead. WindowsCE/Windows Mobile run well on ARM and support a very similar API, but is much lighter weight under the hood.
It will be very interesting to see how well this thing will run.
Greg
— xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
From: xxxxx@osr.com
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Subject: RE:[ntdev] Windows for ARM? That makes life a bit more interesting…
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 15:29:47 -0500 (EST)
I guess everyone will see in January, at the CES.
Peter
OSR
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Gregory G Dyess wrote:
They would really have to clean up the code and remove a lot of bloat and overhead. WindowsCE/Windows Mobile run well on ARM and support a very similar API, but is much lighter weight under the hood.
I don’t think so. The ARM is a perfectly capable processor, more than
enough to host desktop Windows. It will, however, be a day of
revelation for those driver and application developers who have
forgotten the lessons of the Alpha, MIPS, and PowerPC days of NT…
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
Will it be desktop/server type or just KIOSK?
-pro
On Dec 22, 2010, at 12:29 PM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
I guess everyone will see in January, at the CES.
Peter
OSR
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Peter wrote:
I guess everyone will see in January, at the CES.
Prokash Sinha wrote:
Will it be desktop/server type or just KIOSK?
I guess everyone will see in January, at the CES.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>> They would really have to clean up the code and remove a lot of bloat and overhead.
>WindowsCE/Windows Mobile run well on ARM and support a very similar API, but is much lighter
>weight under the hood.
I don’t think so. The ARM is a perfectly capable processor, more than enough to host desktop Windows.
Actually, I would agree with Gregory here. Please note that the entire concept of pageable kernel ( that MSFT aficinados defend so much on this list) is …ugh, rather problematic, so to say, on ARM architecture. First of all, it does not have either Dirty or Accessed bits in PTE. This part can be worked around pretty much the same way copy-on-write works, but what are they going to do when it comes to actually swapping data if the target machine has no secondary storage other than NAND flash???
Therefore, they will have to clean up quite a few things in order to port it to ARM…
Anton Bassov
> Will it be desktop/server type or just KIOSK?
IIRC, Jake said not so long ago in this NG that they had made an internal decision to NEVER port NT-based systems to any architecture other than x86, x86_64 and IA64. Therefore, there is a good chance that we are discussing a rumor that has no facts to back it up…
Anton Bassov
>
> Will it be desktop/server type or just KIOSK?
IIRC, Jake said not so long ago in this NG that they had made an
internal
decision to NEVER port NT-based systems to any architecture other than
x86,
x86_64 and IA64. Therefore, there is a good chance that we are
discussing a
rumor that has no facts to back it up…
And they’re slowly backing away from IA64 too according to what I’ve
read.
James
Slowly? How about a full-scale dropping of the platform not long ago?
— xxxxx@bendigoit.com.au wrote:
From: “James Harper”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Windows for ARM? That makes life a bit more interesting…
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 10:47:10 +1100
>
> > Will it be desktop/server type or just KIOSK?
>
> IIRC, Jake said not so long ago in this NG that they had made an
internal
> decision to NEVER port NT-based systems to any architecture other than
x86,
> x86_64 and IA64. Therefore, there is a good chance that we are
discussing a
> rumor that has no facts to back it up…
>
And they’re slowly backing away from IA64 too according to what I’ve
read.
James
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I was told that W2K8 R2 was the last release that supports IA64.
Bill Wandel
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Gregory G Dyess
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 6:59 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Windows for ARM? That makes life a bit more
interesting…
Slowly? How about a full-scale dropping of the platform not long ago?
— xxxxx@bendigoit.com.au wrote:
From: “James Harper”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Windows for ARM? That makes life a bit more
interesting…
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 10:47:10 +1100
>
> > Will it be desktop/server type or just KIOSK?
>
> IIRC, Jake said not so long ago in this NG that they had made an
internal
> decision to NEVER port NT-based systems to any architecture other than
x86,
> x86_64 and IA64. Therefore, there is a good chance that we are
discussing a
> rumor that has no facts to back it up…
>
And they’re slowly backing away from IA64 too according to what I’ve read.
James
—
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—
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Good point. Though, IA got a nick name “Itanic” now a days 
-pro
On Dec 22, 2010, at 3:31 PM, xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:
> Will it be desktop/server type or just KIOSK?
IIRC, Jake said not so long ago in this NG that they had made an internal decision to NEVER port NT-based systems to any architecture other than x86, x86_64 and IA64. Therefore, there is a good chance that we are discussing a rumor that has no facts to back it up…
Anton Bassov
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Let it rest in peace…
Calvin
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Prokash Sinha
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 5:50 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Windows for ARM? That makes life a bit more
interesting…
Good point. Though, IA got a nick name “Itanic” now a days
-pro
On Dec 22, 2010, at 3:31 PM, xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:
> Will it be desktop/server type or just KIOSK?
IIRC, Jake said not so long ago in this NG that they had made an internal
decision to NEVER port NT-based systems to any architecture other than x86,
x86_64 and IA64. Therefore, there is a good chance that we are discussing a
rumor that has no facts to back it up…Anton Bassov
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
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Gregory G Dyess wrote:
They would really have to clean up the code and remove a lot of bloat
and overhead.
Tim Roberts wrote:
I don’t think so. The ARM is a perfectly capable processor, more
than enough to host desktop Windows.
[=> you could have as much bloat here as on x86/x64 ;-)]
Yes, and with Intel’s Linux-based Moblin and MeeGo efforts, MS would
actually be wise to support an additional platform to x86/x64.
Gregory G Dyess wrote:
WindowsCE/Windows Mobile run well on ARM […]
Yes, and in my opinion this “Windows on ARM” announcement is likely to
actually be “Win7 Mobile”. But I’d be very happy to be wrong here.
Tim Roberts wrote:
It will, however, be a day of revelation for those driver and
application developers who have forgotten the lessons of the Alpha,
MIPS, and PowerPC days of NT…
…or are too young to have learned them in the first place (like me).
As I see it, multiple *different* platforms usually result in cleaner
code - you realize your hidden assumptions (E.g. endianness, sector
size, memory page size, etc.) - pretty soon. And *this* is good.
>actually swapping data if the target machine has no secondary storage other than NAND flash???
Why is this the problem? just do not page anything out. Trivial.
Paged code in the kernel becomes nonpaged automatically.
–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
I once consulted with a firm that put Windows XP Embedded in a processor
that was embedded in (NDA) something else. People bought the “something
else” objects for their purposes, but the interface was a small
touch-sensitive screen (no keyboard) controlled entirely by Windows. It
booted from a flash drive and had no swapping mechanism at all. It had 2GB
of physical memory and the OS and all apps had to fit in that space. There
were several apps, to handle (NDA) Task 1, Task2 and Task3, plus custom
TaskN components that a customer could order as add-ons; if the customer
ordered too many apps to fit, they upgraded (at extra cost to the customer)
to 4GB of RAM. So these configurations work, and are sold every day by any
number of vendors. It seemed quite natural to them to not have a secondary
storage device and no paging.
For these machines, they used embedded x86 chips rather than ARM, but if you
have an ARM-based OS, you can build ARM-based apps for it. So I think the
operative question is how they are going to package this, such as in the
fashion of XP Embedded (Win7 Embedded?), or purely going to sell it to
people like phone vendors under strict NDA. But, as already pointed out,
we’ll find out at CES.
joe
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 4:35 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Windows for ARM? That makes life a bit more
interesting…
actually swapping data if the target machine has no secondary storage
other than NAND flash???
Why is this the problem? just do not page anything out. Trivial.
Paged code in the kernel becomes nonpaged automatically.
–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
I once consulted with a firm that put Windows XP Embedded in a processor
that was embedded in (NDA) something else. People bought the “something
else” objects for their purposes, but the interface was a small
touch-sensitive screen (no keyboard) controlled entirely by Windows.
I mentioned this in a private message to Hagen, but I like to hear
myself talk, so I’ll repeat it.
I, personally, find it very difficult to believe that Microsoft would
undertake the quite considerable effort to take a fine-toothed comb
through the NT kernel – and all of its device drivers – and re-certify
that they do not contain any x86/x64/ia64 assumptions. I think it is
much more likely that we’re seeing some kind of expansion of Windows
Mobile, which already runs on a big bunch of processors.
Consider this. Microsoft tried for 10 years to convince the world that
tablets and pads should be pint-sized laptops. That strategy was not
successful. Apple, in a gamble that really was genius, decided that
pads should instead be large-sized cell phones. The general public,
apparently, agrees with Apple. That’s why they’ve sold millions of iPads.
Microsoft’s marketing team cannot have ignored that lesson. I’d be
shocked if the next generation of Windows pads were not based on a
Windows Phone-like system.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
> I once consulted with a firm that put Windows XP Embedded in a
processor
> that was embedded in (NDA) something else. People bought the
“something
> else” objects for their purposes, but the interface was a small
> touch-sensitive screen (no keyboard) controlled entirely by Windows.I mentioned this in a private message to Hagen, but I like to hear
myself talk, so I’ll repeat it.I, personally, find it very difficult to believe that Microsoft would
undertake the quite considerable effort to take a fine-toothed comb
through the NT kernel – and all of its device drivers – and
re-certify
that they do not contain any x86/x64/ia64 assumptions. I think it is
much more likely that we’re seeing some kind of expansion of Windows
Mobile, which already runs on a big bunch of processors.Consider this. Microsoft tried for 10 years to convince the world
that
tablets and pads should be pint-sized laptops. That strategy was not
successful. Apple, in a gamble that really was genius, decided that
pads should instead be large-sized cell phones. The general public,
apparently, agrees with Apple. That’s why they’ve sold millions of
iPads.Microsoft’s marketing team cannot have ignored that lesson. I’d be
shocked if the next generation of Windows pads were not based on a
Windows Phone-like system.
The other thing to consider is that they already did this with PPC,
Alpha, etc, so they should know exactly what they are getting themselves
into. A “Windows on ARM” story made it into Slashdot this morning
(AEDT), but unsurprisingly there hasn’t been much intelligent discussion
apart from “ubuntu already runs on ARM” and then “Debian has supported
ARM for decades”.
Even if they did get the kernel up and running on ARM, would you buy an
ARM laptop that wouldn’t run any of your favourite 3rd party
applications?
James
I really don’t see the full-blown desktop version of Windows 7 being put on ARM. The last time Microsoft had a true multi-platform version of Windows was one of the later release candidates for Windows 2000. Since then, I am sure a lot of x86/x64-specific code has crept into the base. I don’t have source code access, so I can’t confirm this. Even though Windows 7 is SO much better than Vista in terms of excessive bloat, it is still more than would be considered responsive on even the fastest ARM-based machine.
Would a variant of XP/Win7 Embedded work? I could see where one of those could be trimmed down enough to work in a kiosk or tablet based on an ARM processor, but since they are just modularized versions of the XP/Win7 code base that OEMs can configure to suit their needs, I doubt that would be the route they would take. It would be just as bad as Win7 in terms of rewriting the code.
It could be the new Windows Mobile 7. But why would this be any big announcement since it already runs on ARM, and has since at least 2.x days? Maybe they’re upgrading WM’s tablet-like capabilities, but much of that was already there as well. Perhaps the total rework of WM7 has made it appear more like Win7? I don’t know since I dropped doing consulting with the massive changes and costly require development tool “upgrades”.
Like Peter said, I think we will all just have to wait and see if MS is really doint this or is planning to cede the entire market space to Apple and Android-like appliances.
— xxxxx@bendigoit.com.au wrote:
From: “James Harper”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Windows for ARM? That makes life a bit more interesting…
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 11:41:22 +1100
>
> Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
> > I once consulted with a firm that put Windows XP Embedded in a
processor
> > that was embedded in (NDA) something else. People bought the
“something
> > else” objects for their purposes, but the interface was a small
> > touch-sensitive screen (no keyboard) controlled entirely by Windows.
>
> I mentioned this in a private message to Hagen, but I like to hear
> myself talk, so I’ll repeat it.
>
> I, personally, find it very difficult to believe that Microsoft would
> undertake the quite considerable effort to take a fine-toothed comb
> through the NT kernel – and all of its device drivers – and
re-certify
> that they do not contain any x86/x64/ia64 assumptions. I think it is
> much more likely that we’re seeing some kind of expansion of Windows
> Mobile, which already runs on a big bunch of processors.
>
> Consider this. Microsoft tried for 10 years to convince the world
that
> tablets and pads should be pint-sized laptops. That strategy was not
> successful. Apple, in a gamble that really was genius, decided that
> pads should instead be large-sized cell phones. The general public,
> apparently, agrees with Apple. That’s why they’ve sold millions of
iPads.
>
> Microsoft’s marketing team cannot have ignored that lesson. I’d be
> shocked if the next generation of Windows pads were not based on a
> Windows Phone-like system.
>
The other thing to consider is that they already did this with PPC,
Alpha, etc, so they should know exactly what they are getting themselves
into. A “Windows on ARM” story made it into Slashdot this morning
(AEDT), but unsurprisingly there hasn’t been much intelligent discussion
apart from “ubuntu already runs on ARM” and then “Debian has supported
ARM for decades”.
Even if they did get the kernel up and running on ARM, would you buy an
ARM laptop that wouldn’t run any of your favourite 3rd party
applications?
James
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
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-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of James Harper
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:41 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Windows for ARM? That makes life a bit more
interesting...
Even if they did get the kernel up and running on ARM, would you buy an ARM
laptop that wouldn't run any of your favourite 3rd party applications?
James
***************
The point of iPad is that you don't run "your favorite apps"; there's no
Word, no PowerPoint, no Excel (thus rendering it completely useless to me;
without at least Word and PowerPoint, it is just a cell phone you can't talk
on). But there are 100,000 apps for the iPhone (and one reason I don't get
one is that I don't have time to browse a database of apps that large; the
other reason is that it has a camera, and I all-too-often find myself in
places where possession of a camera phone would also involve rather
unpleasant people wearing camo uniforms asking me awkward questions at
gunpoint. And other places that just call the police and/or terminate my
contract for industrial espionage).
Since ARMs are used in embedded systems, it is more likely you will find
this not as an end-user product, but serving the same role as XP Embedded,
or even Windows Mobile (XP Embedded is for those who can't deal with Windows
Mobile, i.e., those who want a *real* OS).
My S.O. won an iPad (every faculty/staff member who donated to United Way
was entered in the contest) and she reported she is "having trouble bonding"
with it. The inevitable consequence of this is documented in
iPad Bonding. For the uninitiated, I am The
Flounder, and The Little Gray Cat is Bernadette. The Flounder always has a
solution to a problem. Her assessment: the iPad is oriented towards
consumers (music, books, Web, social networking sites, etc.) and she (and I)
are not part of the Consumer Culture. We are creators, not consumers, and
the iPad is not a tool for creators, or at least that is not its major
thrust (except for creating content for social networking sites, see
aforementioned lack of interest in social networking).
For those of you who may be amused by an adaptation of a seasonal standard,
see Night Before Christmas 1. And a Very Merry
Winter Solstice Holiday Of Your Choice.
joe
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