Will we need to use the Windows(r) Driver Kit to develop filter drivers for
Longhorn?
Ken
Will we need to use the Windows(r) Driver Kit to develop filter drivers for
Longhorn?
Ken
Ken Galipeau wrote:
Will we need to use the Windows® Driver Kit to develop filter drivers
for Longhorn?
I’m not sure I understand the question.
You’ll always need the DDK to develop drivers for Windows (well,
“always” is a long time, but you know what I mean). There have been
rumours for quite some time that the IFS Kit will finally be integrated
into the standard Winndows DDK (or Longhorn Driver Kit, LDK, as
Microsoft calls it) in the Longhorn timeframe.
We won’t be able to count on such an integration happening, however,
until we actually get our hands on pre-release LDKs that include the IFS
kit contents. Until then, it’s anybody’s guess.
Peter
OSR
Hi Peter,
MS sent this out:
“Microsoft formally invites your project team to participate in the
Microsoft(r) Windows(r) Driver Kit (WDK) Technical Adoption Program
(TAP)!”
Is this a general DDK for devices or will this be used for filter drivers as
well? If we keep on using the “IFSKIT” (in whatever forms it takes) will
they eventually be one and the same?
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Viscarola (OSR) [mailto:xxxxx@osr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 6:30 PM
To: Windows File Systems Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntfsd] Windows Driver Kit
Ken Galipeau wrote:
Will we need to use the Windows(r) Driver Kit to develop filter drivers
for Longhorn?
I’m not sure I understand the question.
You’ll always need the DDK to develop drivers for Windows (well,
“always” is a long time, but you know what I mean). There have been
rumours for quite some time that the IFS Kit will finally be integrated
into the standard Winndows DDK (or Longhorn Driver Kit, LDK, as
Microsoft calls it) in the Longhorn timeframe.
We won’t be able to count on such an integration happening, however,
until we actually get our hands on pre-release LDKs that include the IFS
kit contents. Until then, it’s anybody’s guess.
Peter
OSR
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at
https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@emc.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> There have been rumours for quite some time that the IFS
Kit will finally be integrated into the standard Winndows DDK
Hopefully MS will make the IFS headers, DDK headers
and SDK headers usable with each other (I tried to
include ntifs.h with windows.h and the result was
about 1000 duplicate symbols).
L.
Ladislav Zezula wrote:
Hopefully MS will make the IFS headers, DDK headers
and SDK headers usable with each other (I tried to
include ntifs.h with windows.h and the result was
about 1000 duplicate symbols).
Why would you do that? They are completely different APIs.
If ntifs.h and ntddk.h conflicted there may be an issue though.
Tony
> Why would you do that? They are completely different APIs.
If ntifs.h and ntddk.h conflicted there may be an issue though.
Well, it was a special case - I needed to get the logged
from the memory block sent by the FileSpy driver
(There is e.g. IO_STACK_LOCATION or
FILE_INFORMATION_CLASS)
I agree that this is not very often case.
L.
Ken Galipeau wrote:
MS sent this out:
“Microsoft formally invites your project team to participate in
the Microsoft(r) Windows(r) Driver Kit (WDK) Technical Adoption
Program (TAP)!”Is this a general DDK for devices or will this be used for filter
drivers as well? If we keep on using the “IFSKIT” (in whatever forms it
takes) will they eventually be one and the same?
Yes, the plan is that the kits WILL be combined (Sorry to have to be so
obscure in my previous post… I just now got mail from one of the DDK
program managers saying that combining the kits is still in the plan,
and is no longer confidential). Of course, like all plans, you should
believe it when you see it, right?? Things change. So, this isn’t a
commitement, it’s a PLAN.
Back at WinHEC last year, I did a presentation describing how the
headers in the DDK are being “cleaned up” for LH. The headers will be
fully hierarchical: NTIFS.H includes NTDDK.H which includes WDM.H (for
example). This clears the way for a (semi) convenient combination of
the IFS Kit heads and the DDK headers.
Hey Ladislav: Sorry to disappoint you dude, but I haven’t heard any
plans to make it possible to include DDK/IFS headers and SDK headers in
the same program.
In terms of “TAP”, I actually don’t know it is (Microsoft has more
“programs” than television network). I *do* know that the LH DDK beta
program should be available for sign-up around the WinHEC timeframe.
I’d really, really, urge (er, beg?) file system and file system filter
developers to get on that beta as early as possible, to help get any
bugs shaken out that might get introduced when the kits are combined.
Anybody who’s not already on the DDK beta program, and wants to be, can
contact me off list and I’ll get you in contact with the right folks in
DDK team.
Peter
OSR
TAP -> Technology Adoption Program
— “Peter Viscarola (OSR)” wrote:
> Ken Galipeau wrote:
> >
> > MS sent this out:
> >
> > “Microsoft formally invites your project
> team to participate in
> > the Microsoft(r) Windows(r) Driver Kit (WDK)
> Technical Adoption
> > Program (TAP)!”
> >
> > Is this a general DDK for devices or will this be
> used for filter
> > drivers as well? If we keep on using the “IFSKIT”
> (in whatever forms it
> > takes) will they eventually be one and the same?
> >
>
>
> Yes, the plan is that the kits WILL be combined
> (Sorry to have to be so
> obscure in my previous post… I just now got mail
> from one of the DDK
> program managers saying that combining the kits is
> still in the plan,
> and is no longer confidential). Of course, like all
> plans, you should
> believe it when you see it, right?? Things change.
> So, this isn’t a
> commitement, it’s a PLAN.
>
> Back at WinHEC last year, I did a presentation
> describing how the
> headers in the DDK are being “cleaned up” for LH.
> The headers will be
> fully hierarchical: NTIFS.H includes NTDDK.H which
> includes WDM.H (for
> example). This clears the way for a (semi)
> convenient combination of
> the IFS Kit heads and the DDK headers.
>
> Hey Ladislav: Sorry to disappoint you dude, but I
> haven’t heard any
> plans to make it possible to include DDK/IFS headers
> and SDK headers in
> the same program.
>
> In terms of “TAP”, I actually don’t know it is
> (Microsoft has more
> “programs” than television network). I do know
> that the LH DDK beta
> program should be available for sign-up around the
> WinHEC timeframe.
> I’d really, really, urge (er, beg?) file system and
> file system filter
> developers to get on that beta as early as possible,
> to help get any
> bugs shaken out that might get introduced when the
> kits are combined.
>
> Anybody who’s not already on the DDK beta program,
> and wants to be, can
> contact me off list and I’ll get you in contact with
> the right folks in
> DDK team.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
> —
> Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at
> https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as:
> xxxxx@yahoo.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
Ladislav Zezula wrote:
Hopefully MS will make the IFS headers, DDK headers
and SDK headers usable with each other (I tried to
include ntifs.h with windows.h and the result was
about 1000 duplicate symbols).
Why would you do that? They are completely different APIs.
If ntifs.h and ntddk.h conflicted there may be an issue though.
Tony
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> Why would you do that? They are completely different APIs.
If ntifs.h and ntddk.h conflicted there may be an issue though.
Well, it was a special case - I needed to get the logged
from the memory block sent by the FileSpy driver
(There is e.g. IO_STACK_LOCATION or
FILE_INFORMATION_CLASS)
I agree that this is not very often case.
L.
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Ken Galipeau wrote:
MS sent this out:
“Microsoft formally invites your project team to participate in
the Microsoft(r) Windows(r) Driver Kit (WDK) Technical Adoption
Program (TAP)!”Is this a general DDK for devices or will this be used for filter
drivers as well? If we keep on using the “IFSKIT” (in whatever forms it
takes) will they eventually be one and the same?
Yes, the plan is that the kits WILL be combined (Sorry to have to be so
obscure in my previous post… I just now got mail from one of the DDK
program managers saying that combining the kits is still in the plan,
and is no longer confidential). Of course, like all plans, you should
believe it when you see it, right?? Things change. So, this isn’t a
commitement, it’s a PLAN.
Back at WinHEC last year, I did a presentation describing how the
headers in the DDK are being “cleaned up” for LH. The headers will be
fully hierarchical: NTIFS.H includes NTDDK.H which includes WDM.H (for
example). This clears the way for a (semi) convenient combination of
the IFS Kit heads and the DDK headers.
Hey Ladislav: Sorry to disappoint you dude, but I haven’t heard any
plans to make it possible to include DDK/IFS headers and SDK headers in
the same program.
In terms of “TAP”, I actually don’t know it is (Microsoft has more
“programs” than television network). I *do* know that the LH DDK beta
program should be available for sign-up around the WinHEC timeframe.
I’d really, really, urge (er, beg?) file system and file system filter
developers to get on that beta as early as possible, to help get any
bugs shaken out that might get introduced when the kits are combined.
Anybody who’s not already on the DDK beta program, and wants to be, can
contact me off list and I’ll get you in contact with the right folks in
DDK team.
Peter
OSR
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
TAP -> Technology Adoption Program
— “Peter Viscarola (OSR)” wrote:
> Ken Galipeau wrote:
> >
> > MS sent this out:
> >
> > “Microsoft formally invites your project
> team to participate in
> > the Microsoft(r) Windows(r) Driver Kit (WDK)
> Technical Adoption
> > Program (TAP)!”
> >
> > Is this a general DDK for devices or will this be
> used for filter
> > drivers as well? If we keep on using the “IFSKIT”
> (in whatever forms it
> > takes) will they eventually be one and the same?
> >
>
>
> Yes, the plan is that the kits WILL be combined
> (Sorry to have to be so
> obscure in my previous post… I just now got mail
> from one of the DDK
> program managers saying that combining the kits is
> still in the plan,
> and is no longer confidential). Of course, like all
> plans, you should
> believe it when you see it, right?? Things change.
> So, this isn’t a
> commitement, it’s a PLAN.
>
> Back at WinHEC last year, I did a presentation
> describing how the
> headers in the DDK are being “cleaned up” for LH.
> The headers will be
> fully hierarchical: NTIFS.H includes NTDDK.H which
> includes WDM.H (for
> example). This clears the way for a (semi)
> convenient combination of
> the IFS Kit heads and the DDK headers.
>
> Hey Ladislav: Sorry to disappoint you dude, but I
> haven’t heard any
> plans to make it possible to include DDK/IFS headers
> and SDK headers in
> the same program.
>
> In terms of “TAP”, I actually don’t know it is
> (Microsoft has more
> “programs” than television network). I do know
> that the LH DDK beta
> program should be available for sign-up around the
> WinHEC timeframe.
> I’d really, really, urge (er, beg?) file system and
> file system filter
> developers to get on that beta as early as possible,
> to help get any
> bugs shaken out that might get introduced when the
> kits are combined.
>
> Anybody who’s not already on the DDK beta program,
> and wants to be, can
> contact me off list and I’ll get you in contact with
> the right folks in
> DDK team.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
> —
> Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at
> https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as:
> xxxxx@yahoo.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
—
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> Why would you do that? They are completely different APIs.
If ntifs.h and ntddk.h conflicted there may be an issue though.
Well, it was a special case - I needed to get the logged
from the memory block sent by the FileSpy driver
(There is e.g. IO_STACK_LOCATION or
FILE_INFORMATION_CLASS)
I agree that this is not very often case.
L.
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
TAP -> Technology Adoption Program
— “Peter Viscarola (OSR)” wrote:
> Ken Galipeau wrote:
> >
> > MS sent this out:
> >
> > “Microsoft formally invites your project
> team to participate in
> > the Microsoft(r) Windows(r) Driver Kit (WDK)
> Technical Adoption
> > Program (TAP)!”
> >
> > Is this a general DDK for devices or will this be
> used for filter
> > drivers as well? If we keep on using the “IFSKIT”
> (in whatever forms it
> > takes) will they eventually be one and the same?
> >
>
>
> Yes, the plan is that the kits WILL be combined
> (Sorry to have to be so
> obscure in my previous post… I just now got mail
> from one of the DDK
> program managers saying that combining the kits is
> still in the plan,
> and is no longer confidential). Of course, like all
> plans, you should
> believe it when you see it, right?? Things change.
> So, this isn’t a
> commitement, it’s a PLAN.
>
> Back at WinHEC last year, I did a presentation
> describing how the
> headers in the DDK are being “cleaned up” for LH.
> The headers will be
> fully hierarchical: NTIFS.H includes NTDDK.H which
> includes WDM.H (for
> example). This clears the way for a (semi)
> convenient combination of
> the IFS Kit heads and the DDK headers.
>
> Hey Ladislav: Sorry to disappoint you dude, but I
> haven’t heard any
> plans to make it possible to include DDK/IFS headers
> and SDK headers in
> the same program.
>
> In terms of “TAP”, I actually don’t know it is
> (Microsoft has more
> “programs” than television network). I do know
> that the LH DDK beta
> program should be available for sign-up around the
> WinHEC timeframe.
> I’d really, really, urge (er, beg?) file system and
> file system filter
> developers to get on that beta as early as possible,
> to help get any
> bugs shaken out that might get introduced when the
> kits are combined.
>
> Anybody who’s not already on the DDK beta program,
> and wants to be, can
> contact me off list and I’ll get you in contact with
> the right folks in
> DDK team.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
> —
> Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at
> https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as:
> xxxxx@yahoo.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
—
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
—
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Ladislav Zezula wrote:
Hopefully MS will make the IFS headers, DDK headers
and SDK headers usable with each other (I tried to
include ntifs.h with windows.h and the result was
about 1000 duplicate symbols).
Why would you do that? They are completely different APIs.
If ntifs.h and ntddk.h conflicted there may be an issue though.
Tony
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Hello Peter,
I’d really, really, urge (er, beg?) file system and file system filter
developers to get on that beta as early as possible, to help get any
bugs shaken out that might get introduced when the kits are combined.
May I add IFSTest to the list? Because IFSTest has been taken out of
IFS Kit and
is now in WHQL test tools ‘only’ (right?). Or is there an IFSTest beta program
that I missed?
Best regards,
David Burg
Software Development
Subject: Re: Windows Driver Kit
From: “Peter Viscarola (OSR)”
> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:26:28 -0500
> X-Message-Number: 10
>
> Ken Galipeau wrote:
>>
>> MS sent this out:
>>
>> “Microsoft formally invites your project team to participate in
>> the Microsoft(r) Windows(r) Driver Kit (WDK) Technical Adoption
>> Program (TAP)!”
>>
>> Is this a general DDK for devices or will this be used for filter
>> drivers as well? If we keep on using the “IFSKIT” (in whatever forms it
>> takes) will they eventually be one and the same?
>>
>
>
> Yes, the plan is that the kits WILL be combined (Sorry to have to be so
> obscure in my previous post… I just now got mail from one of the DDK
> program managers saying that combining the kits is still in the plan,
> and is no longer confidential). Of course, like all plans, you should
> believe it when you see it, right?? Things change. So, this isn’t a
> commitement, it’s a PLAN.
>
> Back at WinHEC last year, I did a presentation describing how the
> headers in the DDK are being “cleaned up” for LH. The headers will be
> fully hierarchical: NTIFS.H includes NTDDK.H which includes WDM.H (for
> example). This clears the way for a (semi) convenient combination of
> the IFS Kit heads and the DDK headers.
>
> Hey Ladislav: Sorry to disappoint you dude, but I haven’t heard any
> plans to make it possible to include DDK/IFS headers and SDK headers in
> the same program.
>
> In terms of “TAP”, I actually don’t know it is (Microsoft has more
> “programs” than television network). I do know that the LH DDK beta
> program should be available for sign-up around the WinHEC timeframe.
> I’d really, really, urge (er, beg?) file system and file system filter
> developers to get on that beta as early as possible, to help get any
> bugs shaken out that might get introduced when the kits are combined.
>
> Anybody who’s not already on the DDK beta program, and wants to be, can
> contact me off list and I’ll get you in contact with the right folks in
> DDK team.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
Ken Galipeau wrote:
MS sent this out:
“Microsoft formally invites your project team to participate in
the Microsoft(r) Windows(r) Driver Kit (WDK) Technical Adoption
Program (TAP)!”Is this a general DDK for devices or will this be used for filter
drivers as well? If we keep on using the “IFSKIT” (in whatever forms it
takes) will they eventually be one and the same?
Yes, the plan is that the kits WILL be combined (Sorry to have to be so
obscure in my previous post… I just now got mail from one of the DDK
program managers saying that combining the kits is still in the plan,
and is no longer confidential). Of course, like all plans, you should
believe it when you see it, right?? Things change. So, this isn’t a
commitement, it’s a PLAN.
Back at WinHEC last year, I did a presentation describing how the
headers in the DDK are being “cleaned up” for LH. The headers will be
fully hierarchical: NTIFS.H includes NTDDK.H which includes WDM.H (for
example). This clears the way for a (semi) convenient combination of
the IFS Kit heads and the DDK headers.
Hey Ladislav: Sorry to disappoint you dude, but I haven’t heard any
plans to make it possible to include DDK/IFS headers and SDK headers in
the same program.
In terms of “TAP”, I actually don’t know it is (Microsoft has more
“programs” than television network). I *do* know that the LH DDK beta
program should be available for sign-up around the WinHEC timeframe.
I’d really, really, urge (er, beg?) file system and file system filter
developers to get on that beta as early as possible, to help get any
bugs shaken out that might get introduced when the kits are combined.
Anybody who’s not already on the DDK beta program, and wants to be, can
contact me off list and I’ll get you in contact with the right folks in
DDK team.
Peter
OSR
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> Why would you do that? They are completely different APIs.
If ntifs.h and ntddk.h conflicted there may be an issue though.
Well, it was a special case - I needed to get the logged
from the memory block sent by the FileSpy driver
(There is e.g. IO_STACK_LOCATION or
FILE_INFORMATION_CLASS)
I agree that this is not very often case.
L.
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Ken Galipeau wrote:
MS sent this out:
“Microsoft formally invites your project team to participate in
the Microsoft(r) Windows(r) Driver Kit (WDK) Technical Adoption
Program (TAP)!”Is this a general DDK for devices or will this be used for filter
drivers as well? If we keep on using the “IFSKIT” (in whatever forms it
takes) will they eventually be one and the same?
Yes, the plan is that the kits WILL be combined (Sorry to have to be so
obscure in my previous post… I just now got mail from one of the DDK
program managers saying that combining the kits is still in the plan,
and is no longer confidential). Of course, like all plans, you should
believe it when you see it, right?? Things change. So, this isn’t a
commitement, it’s a PLAN.
Back at WinHEC last year, I did a presentation describing how the
headers in the DDK are being “cleaned up” for LH. The headers will be
fully hierarchical: NTIFS.H includes NTDDK.H which includes WDM.H (for
example). This clears the way for a (semi) convenient combination of
the IFS Kit heads and the DDK headers.
Hey Ladislav: Sorry to disappoint you dude, but I haven’t heard any
plans to make it possible to include DDK/IFS headers and SDK headers in
the same program.
In terms of “TAP”, I actually don’t know it is (Microsoft has more
“programs” than television network). I *do* know that the LH DDK beta
program should be available for sign-up around the WinHEC timeframe.
I’d really, really, urge (er, beg?) file system and file system filter
developers to get on that beta as early as possible, to help get any
bugs shaken out that might get introduced when the kits are combined.
Anybody who’s not already on the DDK beta program, and wants to be, can
contact me off list and I’ll get you in contact with the right folks in
DDK team.
Peter
OSR
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Ladislav Zezula wrote:
Hopefully MS will make the IFS headers, DDK headers
and SDK headers usable with each other (I tried to
include ntifs.h with windows.h and the result was
about 1000 duplicate symbols).
Why would you do that? They are completely different APIs.
If ntifs.h and ntddk.h conflicted there may be an issue though.
Tony
Questions? First check the IFS FAQ at https://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=17
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@helpco.kiev.ua
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