xxxxx@fastmail.fm wrote:
OSR forums/lists are great and unique. But Microsoft is Microsoft. We should
not critisize them for having their own forum for the stuff they own.
No, but we should criticize them for replacing a newsgroup with a web
forum - what a backwards step.
We’ve already been over this top in the MFC newsgroup, and what it boils
down to is a collection of cascading bad decisions, a strong “NIH” factor,
and a need to employ 12-year-old Web designers. Look for the “NNTP Bridge”
project which is supposed to solve the problem. But when I went to install
it, it gave me one of the typical childish error messages Microsoft now
considers standard practice “A required DLL was not found”. Of course, in a
sane world run by intelligent and responsible people, it would tell me what
the name of the DLL was, but those 12-year-old programmers have to have
SOMETHING to do, and they can’t all be used to design Web forum sites. So
some of them get to design error messages.
It is a losing battle to try to explain to Microsoft why newsgroups make
more sense than their own private, over-cool, amateur designs for user
interaction/
The NNTP Bridge can be found at:
http://communitybridge.codeplex.com/releases/view/48335
If anyone determines WHAT DLL is missing, the rest of us would like to know.
joe
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of J. J. Farrell
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 8:40 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] WDK Forum on MSDN
xxxxx@fastmail.fm wrote:
OSR forums/lists are great and unique. But Microsoft is Microsoft. We
should not critisize them for having their own forum for the stuff they
own.
No, but we should criticize them for replacing a newsgroup with a web forum
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
–
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
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“J. J. Farrell” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> xxxxx@fastmail.fm wrote:
>> OSR forums/lists are great and unique. But Microsoft is Microsoft. We
>> should
>> not critisize them for having their own forum for the stuff they own.
>
> No, but we should criticize them for replacing a newsgroup with a web
> forum - what a backwards step.
>
A bit too late.
–pa
Thank you very much, Jennifer, Tim and Joseph,
for the helpful pointers and comments.
However, *for me* a bridge is not a replacement for NNTP access.
(Unless the bridge runs on a Microsoft server, of course.)
I hope you guys will share your wisdom with the masses
that haven’t discovered this (OSR Online) resource yet.
Well, looks like I might be better off not using any bridge,
but cutting down on newsgroup reading instead.
Nevertheless, many thanks for pointing me to this alternative!
+++background
So. The former XYZ newsgroups are are now available as web-forums only.
Probably “best viewed with YG9.4.5674.3456 and MoonFlashLight”.
Please consider: any web interface is probably Much Slower here where I
live. Also it will work only while connected to the 'net.
Any bridge solution (1) adds components and (2) complexity to my already
complex PC setup. Also I may be not even allowed to install it on all
PCs that I can use for newsgroup reading.
NNTP readers download headlines first. Then you can sort the message
title display to your preferences, without the need to reload every page
/ posting. It can also download whole posts for (gasp!!) offline reading
(useful for these train journeys).
Also NNTP has been around for a *long* time, is lightweight, and is
integrated in lots of mail/news readers. This is why I prefer NNTP.
—background
+++dev rant
Similar philosophy has crept into lots of drivers and applications.
On my home PC e.g. there are these permanently running processes:
The GPS and Camcorder processes actually fight each other (monitoring
for USB MSDs) and actually and provably *destabilize* my system!!
These apps get it right: AV scanner and Flash check for updates once at
system startup, then terminate the check process. Some apps use the task
scheduler. Other apps do it (configurably!) whenever I start them.
=> Please don’t treat my PC as if it were your property. Thanks!
—dev rant
On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 12:30:23 +0100
Hagen Patzke wrote:
> However, for me a bridge is not a replacement for NNTP access.
> (Unless the bridge runs on a Microsoft server, of course.)
Unfortunately it’s the way things are going: people nowadays seem to
prefer the easy access of web forums to ease of use of newsgroups.
–
Bruce Cran
> Please don’t treat my PC as if it were your property. Thanks!
Your PC itself is not their property, but, according to EULA, Windows OS that runs on it is - they just license it to you, so that they reserve the right to inspect/install/etc whatever they like without asking your permission.
If you don’t like it…well, just don’t use Windows then…
Anton Bassov
>> Please don’t treat my PC as if it were your property. Thanks!
Your PC itself is not their property, but, according to EULA, Windows
OS that runs on it is […]
The argument was not about MS-Windows, it was generally about
(application) programmers littering the taskbar and process list.
> The argument was not about MS-Windows, it was generally about (application) programmers
littering the taskbar and process list
Well , my argument stays the same - if you don’t like it just don’t use apps that do it (unless they come with Windows, in which case my previous post applies). Simple, ugh…
Anton Bassov
But your argument is not much more than a nonsensical rant. Of course your PC is yours. It’s nothing more than an intellectual appliance, like a toaster is a kitchen appliance or a vacuum cleaner is a household appliance. The OS you install on that brick is not yours, on that I agree. However, no one, at least not in this country, can tell you what OS you may or may not install on that brick as long as you own a legitimate license or permission to install that OS on your own personal brick, or computer in this case. You equated the PC to the OS and that simply is nonsense.
Gary Little
----- Original Message -----
From: “soviet bloke”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2010 6:35:40 AM
Subject: RE:[ntdev] WDK Forum on MSDN
> The argument was not about MS-Windows, it was generally about (application) programmers
> littering the taskbar and process list
Well , my argument stays the same - if you don’t like it just don’t use apps that do it (unless they come with Windows, in which case my previous post applies). Simple, ugh…
Anton Bassov
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> But your argument is not much more than a nonsensical rant.
…
You equated the PC to the OS and that simply is nonsense.
Did you actually read what I was saying ??? I did not equate PC to the OS - instead, I made it clear that these are two separate things, so that you can simply replace your OS if you don’t like what it does. Sorry, but you seem to be arguing only with yourself…
In any case, I think that it is the right time to move this discussion to NTTALK - this whole thread seems to be a way off-topic issue on NTDEV…
Anton Bassov
Yes, I actually really did READ what you were saying, and I read it again, and I see that again my trifocals screwed the pooch, or me as it were. Seems I completely missed " … itself is …" on first reading. Given that, I then must say that I agree.
“Your PC itself is not their property, but, according to EULA, Windows OS that runs on it is - they just license it to you, so that they reserve the right to inspect/install/etc whatever they like without asking your permission.”
----- Original Message -----
From: “soviet bloke”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2010 8:11:56 AM
Subject: RE:[ntdev] WDK Forum on MSDN
> But your argument is not much more than a nonsensical rant.
…
> You equated the PC to the OS and that simply is nonsense.
Did you actually read what I was saying ??? I did not equate PC to the OS - instead, I made it clear that these are two separate things, so that you can simply replace your OS if you don’t like what it does. Sorry, but you seem to be arguing only with yourself…
In any case, I think that it is the right time to move this discussion to NTTALK - this whole thread seems to be a way off-topic issue on NTDEV…
Anton Bassov
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Your argument about NNTP being effective, lightweight, well-understood, etc.
has one deep and serious flaw: it is a completely rationale, totally
sensible argument. We learned that this holds no validity at Microsoft;
instead, “We need Web forums” is a decision made at a high level by people
who don’t actually interact with real human beings, and handed down as a
goal which must be implemented. Rational arguments as to why it is a
Fundamentally Bad Idea are not even considered as being worth listening to,
because such arguments might demonstrate that whoever made the decision is a
total flaming idiot, and that is Not Acceptable. In fact, look at a lot of
these recent decisions, including the WHQL testing (you must have a server
that is not a domain controller, for reasons that make no sense to most of
us), etc., and you will see a pattern of “I have made my decision, now don’t
confuse me with facts” thinking. This is just one more instance. (One
argument is that the latest versions of Exchange do not support NNTP, but of
course, this raises the question of how anyone could be so stupid as to
ignore one of the major network protocols in a design, and the answer we got
was “We didn’t consider it important”, which goes back to the NIH pattern of
decision-making).
joe
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Hagen Patzke
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 6:30 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] WDK Forum on MSDN
Thank you very much, Jennifer, Tim and Joseph, for the helpful pointers and
comments.
However, *for me* a bridge is not a replacement for NNTP access.
(Unless the bridge runs on a Microsoft server, of course.)
I hope you guys will share your wisdom with the masses that haven’t
discovered this (OSR Online) resource yet.
Well, looks like I might be better off not using any bridge, but cutting
down on newsgroup reading instead.
Nevertheless, many thanks for pointing me to this alternative!
+++background
So. The former XYZ newsgroups are are now available as web-forums only.
Probably “best viewed with YG9.4.5674.3456 and MoonFlashLight”.
Please consider: any web interface is probably Much Slower here where I
live. Also it will work only while connected to the 'net.
Any bridge solution (1) adds components and (2) complexity to my already
complex PC setup. Also I may be not even allowed to install it on all PCs
that I can use for newsgroup reading.
NNTP readers download headlines first. Then you can sort the message title
display to your preferences, without the need to reload every page /
posting. It can also download whole posts for (gasp!!) offline reading
(useful for these train journeys).
Also NNTP has been around for a *long* time, is lightweight, and is
integrated in lots of mail/news readers. This is why I prefer NNTP.
—background
+++dev rant
Similar philosophy has crept into lots of drivers and applications.
On my home PC e.g. there are these permanently running processes:
The GPS and Camcorder processes actually fight each other (monitoring for
USB MSDs) and actually and provably *destabilize* my system!!
These apps get it right: AV scanner and Flash check for updates once at
system startup, then terminate the check process. Some apps use the task
scheduler. Other apps do it (configurably!) whenever I start them.
=> Please don’t treat my PC as if it were your property. Thanks!
—dev rant
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
–
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 12:36:30 -0500
“Joseph M. Newcomer” wrote:
> Your argument about NNTP being effective, lightweight,
> well-understood, etc. has one deep and serious flaw: it is a
> completely rationale, totally sensible argument. We learned that
> this holds no validity at Microsoft; instead, “We need Web forums” is
> a decision made at a high level by people who don’t actually interact
> with real human beings, and handed down as a goal which must be
> implemented. Rational arguments as to why it is a Fundamentally Bad
> Idea are not even considered as being worth listening to, because
> such arguments might demonstrate that whoever made the decision is a
> total flaming idiot, and that is Not Acceptable.
I believe it is quite rational: while I and many other “traditional”
users prefer NNTP and using desktop clients, many new users do prefer
web-based forums. I know in the last couple of years since the FreeBSD
project added forums to complement their traditional mailing lists
they’ve been hugely successful, far more so than their mailing lists
which lots of the more technical people keep using.
–
Bruce Cran
Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
Your argument about NNTP being effective, lightweight, well-understood, etc.
has one deep and serious flaw: it is a completely rationale, totally
sensible argument. We learned that this holds no validity at Microsoft;
instead, “We need Web forums” is a decision made at a high level by people
who don’t actually interact with real human beings, and handed down as a
goal which must be implemented.
Well, even though I totally agree with the root sentiment you are
expressing, this assessment is not fair.
The NNTP vs web forums debate is almost entirely an age thing. Those of
us who are creaking dinosaurs, who cut our teeth on slide rules and
teletypes, who remember running compilers from floppy disks, have a
tendency to glorify doing more with less. NNTP is cool to us because it
is minimal.
Today’s generation simply does not think that way. They use different
criteria. Their world is one of mice and icons, browsers and social
networking. To many of these folks, a computer is little more than a
vehicle for running a web browser. A command line is simply a crusty
inconvenience they are required to deal with occasionally, if at all.
Folks like that seem to find the web forum interface to be familiar and
natural, and NNTP to be an antique and confusing relic of ages past.
They PREFER it, and they are productive using it… That’s neither right
nor wrong, it’s just a fact.
And unfortunately, for the most part, there are WAY more of them then
there are of us. Microsoft made the decision they did because the vast
majority of their user base wanted to work that way. If you don’t have
a Facebook page, then you probably hate the web forum interface, but we
are an increasingly irrelevant minority of the Microsoft customer base.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
And as I’ve regularly reminded people, even HERE in the bastion of retrograde practices, forum activity has outpaced NNTP activity by a 2:1 margin, for the past 18 months.
BTW, the single most common way people post to the forums is still email… which accounts for rouglhly half of all posts. So, if you want to argue that the MSFT forums aren’t meeting people’s needs, you could easily argue that what’s most desired is LISTSRV compatibility and not NNTP.
In any case, it’s taken a lot of effort but we’ve managed to maintain all three interfaces here on NTDEV/NTFSD/WINDBG… cuz that’s what we heard you guys say you wanted.
Peter
OSR
If Microsoft sets up an e-mail interface to the new forums, I might be
inclined to subscribe. I doubt that I will take the time to poll the groups
through the web interface. Take that as a request, for whatever it’s worth,
Jen.
Philip D. Barila??? (303) 776-1264
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 12:42 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] WDK Forum on MSDN
And as I’ve regularly reminded people, even HERE in the bastion of
retrograde practices, forum activity has outpaced NNTP activity by a 2:1
margin, for the past 18 months.
BTW, the single most common way people post to the forums is still email…
which accounts for rouglhly half of all posts. So, if you want to argue
that the MSFT forums aren’t meeting people’s needs, you could easily argue
that what’s most desired is LISTSRV compatibility and not NNTP.
In any case, it’s taken a lot of effort but we’ve managed to maintain all
three interfaces here on NTDEV/NTFSD/WINDBG… cuz that’s what we heard you
guys say you wanted.
Peter
OSR
You can subscribe to the forum RSS feed. But, that is pretty poor compared
to email list or NTTP IMHO.
Thomas F. Divine
From: “Philip D Barila”
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:54 PM
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Subject: RE: [ntdev] WDK Forum on MSDN
> If Microsoft sets up an e-mail interface to the new forums, I might be
> inclined to subscribe. I doubt that I will take the time to poll the
> groups
> through the web interface. Take that as a request, for whatever it’s
> worth,
> Jen.
>
> Philip D. Barila (303) 776-1264
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 12:42 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE:[ntdev] WDK Forum on MSDN
>
> And as I’ve regularly reminded people, even HERE in the bastion of
> retrograde practices, forum activity has outpaced NNTP activity by a 2:1
> margin, for the past 18 months.
>
> BTW, the single most common way people post to the forums is still
> email…
> which accounts for rouglhly half of all posts. So, if you want to argue
> that the MSFT forums aren’t meeting people’s needs, you could easily argue
> that what’s most desired is LISTSRV compatibility and not NNTP.
>
> In any case, it’s taken a lot of effort but we’ve managed to maintain all
> three interfaces here on NTDEV/NTFSD/WINDBG… cuz that’s what we heard
> you
> guys say you wanted.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
You can subscribe to the forum RSS feed. But, that is pretty poor compared
to email list or NTTP IMHO.
Thomas F. Divine
From: “Philip D Barila”
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:54 PM
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Subject: RE: [ntdev] WDK Forum on MSDN
> If Microsoft sets up an e-mail interface to the new forums, I might be
> inclined to subscribe. I doubt that I will take the time to poll the
> groups
> through the web interface. Take that as a request, for whatever it’s
> worth,
> Jen.
>
> Philip D. Barila (303) 776-1264
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 12:42 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE:[ntdev] WDK Forum on MSDN
>
> And as I’ve regularly reminded people, even HERE in the bastion of
> retrograde practices, forum activity has outpaced NNTP activity by a 2:1
> margin, for the past 18 months.
>
> BTW, the single most common way people post to the forums is still
> email…
> which accounts for rouglhly half of all posts. So, if you want to argue
> that the MSFT forums aren’t meeting people’s needs, you could easily argue
> that what’s most desired is LISTSRV compatibility and not NNTP.
>
> In any case, it’s taken a lot of effort but we’ve managed to maintain all
> three interfaces here on NTDEV/NTFSD/WINDBG… cuz that’s what we heard
> you
> guys say you wanted.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Tim,
I don’t think it’s generational or even related to physical age. It’s the path we
took to get here. 99% of the people in my barbershop chorus, ages ranging
from 18 to 80+, and which maintains a quite extensive web presence, will
opt for reading email and forums on the web. Why? Because it’s less work
and takes less understanding of something they really have no desire to
understand. That 1% remaining in that organization understand, are computer
literate, savvy, have careers in IT and computers technology, and know enough
about NNTP to be able to set it up for Outlook, Outlook Express, Vista’s Mail
or any other reader.
It’s the road we traveled, and not the gray in our hair, or lack thereof, that is the
governing factor in how we handle email.
Gary Little
----- Original Message -----
From: “Tim Roberts”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2010 12:08:00 PM
Subject: Re: [ntdev] WDK Forum on MSDN
Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
> Your argument about NNTP being effective, lightweight, well-understood, etc.
> has one deep and serious flaw: it is a completely rationale, totally
> sensible argument. We learned that this holds no validity at Microsoft;
> instead, “We need Web forums” is a decision made at a high level by people
> who don’t actually interact with real human beings, and handed down as a
> goal which must be implemented.
Well, even though I totally agree with the root sentiment you are
expressing, this assessment is not fair.
The NNTP vs web forums debate is almost entirely an age thing. Those of
us who are creaking dinosaurs, who cut our teeth on slide rules and
teletypes, who remember running compilers from floppy disks, have a
tendency to glorify doing more with less. NNTP is cool to us because it
is minimal.
Today’s generation simply does not think that way. They use different
criteria. Their world is one of mice and icons, browsers and social
networking. To many of these folks, a computer is little more than a
vehicle for running a web browser. A command line is simply a crusty
inconvenience they are required to deal with occasionally, if at all.
Folks like that seem to find the web forum interface to be familiar and
natural, and NNTP to be an antique and confusing relic of ages past.
They PREFER it, and they are productive using it… That’s neither right
nor wrong, it’s just a fact.
And unfortunately, for the most part, there are WAY more of them then
there are of us. Microsoft made the decision they did because the vast
majority of their user base wanted to work that way. If you don’t have
a Facebook page, then you probably hate the web forum interface, but we
are an increasingly irrelevant minority of the Microsoft customer base.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
I think osr here does a pretty decent job. I don’t care for redundancy where two sites go off competing for the same thing creating fragmentation, but I’ll take a wait and see approach to see how the msft fora progresses with content. I mainly poll to keep current on interesting topics.
I don’t know about MVP or the politics involved, but if it is kaput then it is curious at least someone is still proclaiming to be MVP or is DKD is something different than drivers.