The future of the BIOS

All,

I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,
Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for
the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…

Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS
technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.

Some questions that I have:

  • How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the
    market place?
  • Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…

I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I
do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch
on in the market place.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jamey Kirby
StorageCraft

> -----Original Message-----

From: Jamey Kirby [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM

I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,
Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for
the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…

Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS
technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.

Some questions that I have:

  • How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies
    surface in the
    market place?
  • Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…

Hey Jamey,

The PCBiosBoot news group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcbiosboot/ may be
the place to find out what you want to know. I believe that Intel and
Phoenix have members in the list. As you might suspect, the traffic is
light but the subject matter is not.

Harmony,

–Christine

I have a friend who is a senior qa engineer at phoenix and he was describing
that they were finishing up on a bios that sounds very familiar to the one
you described. This was about 2 years ago. I still haven’t seen it. But
basically it was going to have networking capabilities and other “advanced”
capabilities pre os.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jamey Kirby [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] The future of the BIOS

All,

I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,
Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for
the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…

Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS
technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.

Some questions that I have:

  • How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the
    market place?
  • Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…

I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I
do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch
on in the market place.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jamey Kirby
StorageCraft


You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@websense.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as
complex as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of
grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mesdaq, Ali
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 4:50 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

I have a friend who is a senior qa engineer at phoenix and he was
describing that they were finishing up on a bios that sounds very
familiar to the one you described. This was about 2 years ago. I still
haven’t seen it. But basically it was going to have networking
capabilities and other “advanced” capabilities pre os.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jamey Kirby [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] The future of the BIOS

All,

I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,
Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for
the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…

Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS
technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.

Some questions that I have:

  • How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the
    market place?
  • Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…

I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I

do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch

on in the market place.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jamey Kirby
StorageCraft


You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@websense.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com


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For a VERY advanced BIOS look at the Intel 64bit architecture. It’s a
mini-OS all in itself. Can manage disks, run utilities, diagnostics, copy
files, and a whole SDK available for running and developing ESI
applications.
It’s only natural that the IA32 platform should get similar capabilities –
VERY useful if you ask me, and Looooong overdue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as complex
as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mesdaq, Ali
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 4:50 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

I have a friend who is a senior qa engineer at phoenix and he was describing
that they were finishing up on a bios that sounds very familiar to the one
you described. This was about 2 years ago. I still haven’t seen it. But
basically it was going to have networking capabilities and other “advanced”
capabilities pre os.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jamey Kirby [ mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com
mailto:xxxxx ]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] The future of the BIOS

All,

I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,
Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for
the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…

Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS
technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.

Some questions that I have:

- How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the
market place?
- Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…

I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I
do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch
on in the market place.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jamey Kirby
StorageCraft


You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@websense.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com


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Dude. Be THANKFUL to Intel, Phoenix, and Compaq that your computer boots at
all.

BTW, I believe an argument can be made that a motherboard BIOS *is* as
complex as an operating system. It is not a simple problem to go from the
application of power to a running OS.

Harmony,

–Christine

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as complex
as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

Well, if I was a Microsoft VP, I’d sense an opportunity and task Jake
Oshins to create Windows XP BIOS edition. :slight_smile:

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Christine Ames
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:01 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Dude. Be THANKFUL to Intel, Phoenix, and Compaq that your computer
boots at all.

BTW, I believe an argument can be made that a motherboard BIOS *is* as
complex as an operating system. It is not a simple problem to go from
the application of power to a running OS.

Harmony,

–Christine

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as
complex as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of
grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@nryan.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

Dude. You’re too late – XP Embedded is already out there :wink:

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:22 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Well, if I was a Microsoft VP, I’d sense an opportunity and task Jake
Oshins to create Windows XP BIOS edition. :slight_smile:

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Christine Ames
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:01 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Dude. Be THANKFUL to Intel, Phoenix, and Compaq that your computer
boots at all.

BTW, I believe an argument can be made that a motherboard BIOS *is* as
complex as an operating system. It is not a simple problem to go from
the application of power to a running OS.

Harmony,

–Christine

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as
complex as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of
grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@nryan.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com


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To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

It is called EFI… Extensible Firmware Interface. It is stage one of a
move away from legacy BIOS. It is mostly written in C and is quite modular
and extensible. BIOS has always been a thorn in Intel’s side. There is
quite a bit of politics that go on surrounding the issue, but the bottom
line is that they are developing a standard.

-Justin

PS Nicholas, Should all machines boot DOS till the end of time? EFI can
act like a thin OS to allow the machine to diagnosed / upgraded / installed
in a OS independent way.

At 03:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

“urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office”>
For a VERY advanced BIOS look at the Intel 64bit architecture. It’s a
mini-OS all in itself. Can manage disks, run utilities, diagnostics, copy
files, and a whole SDK available for running and developing ESI applications.
It’s only natural that the IA32 platform should get similar capabilities
– VERY useful if you ask me, and Looooong overdue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as complex
as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mesdaq, Ali
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 4:50 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

I have a friend who is a senior qa engineer at phoenix and he was
describing that they were finishing up on a bios that sounds very familiar
to the one you described. This was about 2 years ago. I still haven’t seen
it. But basically it was going to have networking capabilities and other
“advanced” capabilities pre os.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jamey Kirby
[mailto:xxxxxmailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM
>To: NT Developers Interest List
>Subject: [ntdev] The future of the BIOS
>
>All,
>
>I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,
>Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for
>the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…
>
>Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS
>technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.
>
>Some questions that I have:
>
>- How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the
>market place?
>- Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…
>
>I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I
>do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch
>on in the market place.
>
>Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jamey Kirby
>StorageCraft
>
>
>
>
>
>—
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@websense.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
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>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@nryan.com
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>
>—
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ultrabac.com
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>To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com</mailto:xxxxx>

But Embedded still requires a standard BIOS, no? This would allow XP
Embedded to run on top of XP BIOS. Hmm, maybe this isn’t such a good
idea…

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bunn
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:34 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Dude. You’re too late – XP Embedded is already out there :wink:

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:22 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Well, if I was a Microsoft VP, I’d sense an opportunity and
task Jake Oshins to create Windows XP BIOS edition. :slight_smile:

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On > Behalf Of Christine
Ames
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:01 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Dude. Be THANKFUL to Intel, Phoenix, and Compaq that your
computer boots at all.

BTW, I believe an argument can be made that a motherboard
BIOS *is* as complex as an operating system. It is not a
simple problem to go from the application of power to a running OS.

Harmony,

–Christine

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS
just as complex as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are
having delusions of grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@nryan.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com


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Yep, my bad. EFI. Great stuff. No reason why Intel couldn’t come out with
an IA32 version of EFI then, huh ?
All that they’d have to do would be to have an EFI program to provide all
the Int services that legacy OS’s require to boot…

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Frodsham [mailto:zeppelin@io.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:33 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

It is called EFI… Extensible Firmware Interface. It is stage one of a move
away from legacy BIOS. It is mostly written in C and is quite modular and
extensible. BIOS has always been a thorn in Intel’s side. There is quite a
bit of politics that go on surrounding the issue, but the bottom line is
that they are developing a standard.

-Justin

PS Nicholas, Should all machines boot DOS till the end of time? EFI can
act like a thin OS to allow the machine to diagnosed / upgraded / installed
in a OS independent way.

At 03:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

“urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office”>
For a VERY advanced BIOS look at the Intel 64bit architecture. It’s a
mini-OS all in itself. Can manage disks, run utilities, diagnostics, copy
files, and a whole SDK available for running and developing ESI
applications.
It’s only natural that the IA32 platform should get similar capabilities –
VERY useful if you ask me, and Looooong overdue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com mailto:xxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as complex
as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of grandeur.

- Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [
mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
mailto:xxxxx] On Behalf Of Mesdaq, Ali

Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 4:50 PM

To: NT Developers Interest List

Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

I have a friend who is a senior qa engineer at phoenix and he was describing
that they were finishing up on a bios that sounds very familiar to the one
you described. This was about 2 years ago. I still haven’t seen it. But
basically it was going to have networking capabilities and other “advanced”
capabilities pre os.

-----Original Message-----

From: Jamey Kirby [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com
mailto:xxxxx]

Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM

To: NT Developers Interest List

Subject: [ntdev] The future of the BIOS

All,

I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,

Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for

the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…

Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS

technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.

Some questions that I have:

- How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the

market place?

- Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…

I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I

do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch

on in the market place.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jamey Kirby

StorageCraft



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Not sure. I doubt the fridges, washing machines, cellphones or whatever
that are running CE/XP Embedded or whatever, have a “BIOS” to speak of –
more of just a simple boot loader, I’d guess… but then, that’s still
technically a BIOS of sorts…
my point was that XP Embedded must be able to be configured to not be
dependent on traditional BIOS functions…

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:34 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

But Embedded still requires a standard BIOS, no? This would allow XP
Embedded to run on top of XP BIOS. Hmm, maybe this isn’t such a good
idea…

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bunn
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:34 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Dude. You’re too late – XP Embedded is already out there :wink:

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:22 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Well, if I was a Microsoft VP, I’d sense an opportunity and
task Jake Oshins to create Windows XP BIOS edition. :slight_smile:

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On > Behalf Of Christine
Ames
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:01 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Dude. Be THANKFUL to Intel, Phoenix, and Compaq that your
computer boots at all.

BTW, I believe an argument can be made that a motherboard
BIOS *is* as complex as an operating system. It is not a
simple problem to go from the application of power to a running OS.

Harmony,

–Christine

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS
just as complex as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are
having delusions of grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@nryan.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com


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Would it be as good as OpenBoot in those SPARCs?

It already exists… :slight_smile:

At 04:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

Yep, my bad. EFI. Great stuff. No reason why Intel couldn’t come out
with an IA32 version of EFI then, huh ?
All that they’d have to do would be to have an EFI program to provide all
the Int services that legacy OS’s require to boot…

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Frodsham [mailto:zeppelin@io.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:33 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

It is called EFI… Extensible Firmware Interface. It is stage one of a
move away from legacy BIOS. It is mostly written in C and is quite
modular and extensible. BIOS has always been a thorn in Intel’s
side. There is quite a bit of politics that go on surrounding the issue,
but the bottom line is that they are developing a standard.

-Justin

PS Nicholas, Should all machines boot DOS till the end of time? EFI can
act like a thin OS to allow the machine to diagnosed / upgraded /
installed in a OS independent way.

At 03:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:
>“urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office”>
>For a VERY advanced BIOS look at the Intel 64bit architecture. It’s a
>mini-OS all in itself. Can manage disks, run utilities, diagnostics,
>copy files, and a whole SDK available for running and developing ESI
>applications.
>It’s only natural that the IA32 platform should get similar capabilities
>– VERY useful if you ask me, and Looooong overdue.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
>To: NT Developers Interest List
>Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS
>
>Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as
>complex as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of grandeur.
>
>
>- Nicholas Ryan
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mesdaq, Ali
>Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 4:50 PM
>To: NT Developers Interest List
>Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS
>
>I have a friend who is a senior qa engineer at phoenix and he was
>describing that they were finishing up on a bios that sounds very
>familiar to the one you described. This was about 2 years ago. I still
>haven’t seen it. But basically it was going to have networking
>capabilities and other “advanced” capabilities pre os.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jamey Kirby
>[mailto:xxxxxmailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM
>>To: NT Developers Interest List
>>Subject: [ntdev] The future of the BIOS
>>
>>All,
>>
>>I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,
>>Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for
>>the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…
>>
>>Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS
>>technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.
>>
>>Some questions that I have:
>>
>>- How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the
>>market place?
>>- Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…
>>
>>I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I
>>do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch
>>on in the market place.
>>Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Jamey Kirby
>>StorageCraft
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>—
>>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@websense.com
>>To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>>—
>>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@nryan.com
>>To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>>—
>>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ultrabac.com
>>To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
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ah… proof that it’s not *just* great minds that think alike :wink:

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Frodsham [mailto:zeppelin@io.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:03 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

It already exists… :slight_smile:

At 04:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

Yep, my bad. EFI. Great stuff. No reason why Intel couldn’t come out with
an IA32 version of EFI then, huh ?
All that they’d have to do would be to have an EFI program to provide all
the Int services that legacy OS’s require to boot…

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Frodsham [mailto:zeppelin@io.com mailto:zeppelin]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:33 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

It is called EFI… Extensible Firmware Interface. It is stage one of a move
away from legacy BIOS. It is mostly written in C and is quite modular and
extensible. BIOS has always been a thorn in Intel’s side. There is quite a
bit of politics that go on surrounding the issue, but the bottom line is
that they are developing a standard.

-Justin

PS Nicholas, Should all machines boot DOS till the end of time? EFI can
act like a thin OS to allow the machine to diagnosed / upgraded / installed
in a OS independent way.

At 03:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

“urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office”>
For a VERY advanced BIOS look at the Intel 64bit architecture. It’s a
mini-OS all in itself. Can manage disks, run utilities, diagnostics, copy
files, and a whole SDK available for running and developing ESI
applications.
It’s only natural that the IA32 platform should get similar capabilities –
VERY useful if you ask me, and Looooong overdue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com mailto:xxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as complex
as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of grandeur.

- Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [
mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
mailto:xxxxx] On Behalf Of Mesdaq, Ali

Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 4:50 PM

To: NT Developers Interest List

Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

I have a friend who is a senior qa engineer at phoenix and he was describing
that they were finishing up on a bios that sounds very familiar to the one
you described. This was about 2 years ago. I still haven’t seen it. But
basically it was going to have networking capabilities and other “advanced”
capabilities pre os.

-----Original Message-----

From: Jamey Kirby [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com
mailto:xxxxx]

Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM

To: NT Developers Interest List

Subject: [ntdev] The future of the BIOS

All,

I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,

Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for

the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…

Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS

technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.

Some questions that I have:

- How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the

market place?

- Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…

I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I

do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch

on in the market place.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jamey Kirby

StorageCraft



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Having basic networking services such as IP available from the BIOS
would be significant. There are times that one does not want to load an
entire OS. Automated installs, disaster recovery, diskless workstations,
etc.

Loading the NT kernel from multiple floppies or a CD with known drivers
and such to perform disaster recovery or push installs is ridiculous. I
have seen complete TCP/IP implementations done in 512 bytes of code;
including telnet and ftp.

If there was a BIOS level TCP/IP stack that was standardized, the world
would be a much better place; throw in some flash loadable modules and
you can reduce the TCO by allowing more robust installs and DR.

Jamey

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Nicholas Ryan
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as
complex as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of
grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mesdaq, Ali
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 4:50 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

I have a friend who is a senior qa engineer at phoenix and he was
describing that they were finishing up on a bios that sounds very
familiar to the one you described. This was about 2 years ago. I still
haven’t seen it. But basically it was going to have networking
capabilities and other “advanced” capabilities pre os.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jamey Kirby [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] The future of the BIOS

All,

I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,
Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for
the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…

Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS
technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.

Some questions that I have:

  • How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the
    market place?
  • Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…

I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I

do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch

on in the market place.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jamey Kirby
StorageCraft


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So, when will all MOBOS ship with XP?

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bunn
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:34 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Dude. You’re too late – XP Embedded is already out there :wink:

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:22 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Well, if I was a Microsoft VP, I’d sense an opportunity and task Jake
Oshins to create Windows XP BIOS edition. :slight_smile:

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Christine Ames
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:01 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Dude. Be THANKFUL to Intel, Phoenix, and Compaq that your computer
boots at all.

BTW, I believe an argument can be made that a motherboard BIOS *is* as
complex as an operating system. It is not a simple problem to go from
the application of power to a running OS.

Harmony,

–Christine

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as
complex as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of
grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

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Yes, I got the EFI specification last week; all 1200+ pages of it. Any
word on how before adoption?

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bunn
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:17 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

ah… proof that it’s not *just* great minds that think alike :wink:

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Frodsham [mailto:zeppelin@io.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:03 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

It already exists… :slight_smile:

At 04:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

Yep, my bad. EFI. Great stuff. No reason why Intel couldn’t come out
with an IA32 version of EFI then, huh ?
All that they’d have to do would be to have an EFI program to provide
all the Int services that legacy OS’s require to boot…

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Frodsham [mailto:zeppelin@io.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:33 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

It is called EFI… Extensible Firmware Interface. It is stage one of a
move away from legacy BIOS. It is mostly written in C and is quite
modular and extensible. BIOS has always been a thorn in Intel’s side.
There is quite a bit of politics that go on surrounding the issue, but
the bottom line is that they are developing a standard.

-Justin

PS Nicholas, Should all machines boot DOS till the end of time? EFI
can act like a thin OS to allow the machine to diagnosed / upgraded /
installed in a OS independent way.

At 03:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

“urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office”>
For a VERY advanced BIOS look at the Intel 64bit architecture. It’s a
mini-OS all in itself. Can manage disks, run utilities, diagnostics,
copy files, and a whole SDK available for running and developing ESI
applications.
It’s only natural that the IA32 platform should get similar capabilities
– VERY useful if you ask me, and Looooong overdue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as
complex as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of
grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mesdaq, Ali

Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 4:50 PM

To: NT Developers Interest List

Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

I have a friend who is a senior qa engineer at phoenix and he was
describing that they were finishing up on a bios that sounds very
familiar to the one you described. This was about 2 years ago. I still
haven’t seen it. But basically it was going to have networking
capabilities and other “advanced” capabilities pre os.

-----Original Message-----

From: Jamey Kirby [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]

Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM

To: NT Developers Interest List

Subject: [ntdev] The future of the BIOS

All,

I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,

Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for

the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…

Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS

technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.

Some questions that I have:

  • How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the

market place?

  • Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…

I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I

do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch

on in the market place.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jamey Kirby

StorageCraft


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For IA-64, it is a done deal. It was in the firmware from day one. I
worked for the server division BIOS group, so I don’t have any specific
info on the IA-32 version, just vague memories from miscellaneous
conversations about certain groups having booted it/ developed on
it. IA-32 is hard area to move forward in. Look how long it took to get
rid of ISA slots. Ironically we never really got rid of ISA, as it is
still embedded in the system there are just no slots. The PS/2 ports are
still connect via LPC ISA among other things.

-Justin

At 10:57 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

Yes, I got the EFI specification last week; all 1200+ pages of it. Any
word on how before adoption?

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bunn
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:17 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

ah… proof that it’s not *just* great minds that think alike :wink:

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Frodsham [mailto:zeppelin@io.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:03 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

It already exists… :slight_smile:

At 04:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

Yep, my bad. EFI. Great stuff. No reason why Intel couldn’t come out
with an IA32 version of EFI then, huh ?
All that they’d have to do would be to have an EFI program to provide all
the Int services that legacy OS’s require to boot…

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Frodsham [mailto:zeppelin@io.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:33 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

It is called EFI… Extensible Firmware Interface. It is stage one of a
move away from legacy BIOS. It is mostly written in C and is quite
modular and extensible. BIOS has always been a thorn in Intel’s
side. There is quite a bit of politics that go on surrounding the issue,
but the bottom line is that they are developing a standard.

-Justin

PS Nicholas, Should all machines boot DOS till the end of time? EFI can
act like a thin OS to allow the machine to diagnosed / upgraded /
installed in a OS independent way.

At 03:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

“urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office”>
For a VERY advanced BIOS look at the Intel 64bit architecture. It’s a
mini-OS all in itself. Can manage disks, run utilities, diagnostics, copy
files, and a whole SDK available for running and developing ESI applications.
It’s only natural that the IA32 platform should get similar capabilities
– VERY useful if you ask me, and Looooong overdue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as complex
as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mesdaq, Ali

Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 4:50 PM

To: NT Developers Interest List

Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

I have a friend who is a senior qa engineer at phoenix and he was
describing that they were finishing up on a bios that sounds very familiar
to the one you described. This was about 2 years ago. I still haven’t seen
it. But basically it was going to have networking capabilities and other
“advanced” capabilities pre os.

-----Original Message-----

From: Jamey Kirby
[mailto:xxxxxmailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM
>
>To: NT Developers Interest List
>
>Subject: [ntdev] The future of the BIOS
>
>All,
>
>I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,
>
>Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for
>
>the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…
>
>Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS
>
>technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.
>
>Some questions that I have:
>
>- How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the
>
>market place?
>
>- Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…
>
>I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I
>
>do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch
>
>on in the market place.
>
>Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jamey Kirby
>
>StorageCraft
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>—
>
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@websense.com
>
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>—
>
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@nryan.com
>
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
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Hopefully it will take a long time to be adopted, since it already takes a very long time to
boot. He we have a bios that requires a fair amount of hard disk space and runs like a pig,
this is not something I want to see. Microsoft wants to speed up boot and install, yet this
monstrosity takes longer to get running than the current spec calls for the OS to boot.

I’ll be the first to agree that the current BIOS is a mess, with all the extensions that have
been added such as ACPI over the years. But what happens if we go to a new interface,
will all your PCI cards have flash roms to support the new model? Will Microsoft release
two versions of the NTLDR and the install program for the system? Will all of you with
SCSI devices that could run with NTLDR or be loaded with F6 run out and buy new
systems to add to your testing as well as keeping the old ones?

All that said, I think we should go to a new BIOS, but not EFI and not without a lot of
careful thought.

Don Burn
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting

----- Original Message -----
From: Jamey Kirby
To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 3:57 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Yes, I got the EFI specification last week; all 1200+ pages of it. Any word on how before adoption?

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bunn
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:17 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

ah… proof that it’s not *just* great minds that think alike :wink:

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Frodsham [mailto:zeppelin@io.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:03 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

It already exists… :slight_smile:

At 04:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

Yep, my bad. EFI. Great stuff. No reason why Intel couldn’t come out with an IA32 version of EFI then, huh ?
All that they’d have to do would be to have an EFI program to provide all the Int services that legacy OS’s require to boot…

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Frodsham [mailto:zeppelin@io.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:33 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

It is called EFI… Extensible Firmware Interface. It is stage one of a move away from legacy BIOS. It is mostly written in C and is quite modular and extensible. BIOS has always been a thorn in Intel’s side. There is quite a bit of politics that go on surrounding the issue, but the bottom line is that they are developing a standard.

-Justin

PS Nicholas, Should all machines boot DOS till the end of time? EFI can act like a thin OS to allow the machine to diagnosed / upgraded / installed in a OS independent way.

At 03:50 PM 3/4/2003, you wrote:

“urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office”>
For a VERY advanced BIOS look at the Intel 64bit architecture. It’s a mini-OS all in itself. Can manage disks, run utilities, diagnostics, copy files, and a whole SDK available for running and developing ESI applications.
It’s only natural that the IA32 platform should get similar capabilities – VERY useful if you ask me, and Looooong overdue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Ryan [mailto:xxxxx@nryan.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the point of having a BIOS just as complex as an OS? I think Phoenix and Intel are having delusions of grandeur.

  • Nicholas Ryan

-----Original Message-----

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mesdaq, Ali

Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 4:50 PM

To: NT Developers Interest List

Subject: [ntdev] RE: The future of the BIOS

I have a friend who is a senior qa engineer at phoenix and he was describing that they were finishing up on a bios that sounds very familiar to the one you described. This was about 2 years ago. I still haven’t seen it. But basically it was going to have networking capabilities and other “advanced” capabilities pre os.

-----Original Message-----

From: Jamey Kirby [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]

Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:26 AM

To: NT Developers Interest List

Subject: [ntdev] The future of the BIOS

All,

I have been thinking about BIOS enhancements. From what I have heard,

Intel has a new BIOS specification that provides advanced services for

the BIOS such as: IP networking, graphical UI, etc…

Are there any folks here that are working on these new BIOS

technologies; I hear Phoenix also has a new architecture.

Some questions that I have:

  • How close are we to seeing these new BIOS technologies surface in the

market place?

  • Who is winning the battle of the standards; Intel, Phoenix, etc…

I am considering doing some research and development in this area, but I

do not want to waste my time on technologies that are not going to catch

on in the market place.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jamey Kirby

StorageCraft


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