software guys lower importance than RTL(IP code implementor) guys, really

wesley · November 18, 2013, 9:14pm

I am a software guy in our IP design group.

The work/task or knowledge we need to grasp includes:
Specific IP protocol, such as USB2.0/3.0, xHCI, PCIe and so on
Class protocol, such as UAC, UVC, BOT, UAS, and so on
ARM firmware basic knowledge
Linux OS
Windows driver/os knowledge, WHQL

While RTL guys mainly focusing on specific protocol, and implement the RTL ip code.

But as a fact, this group’s product is RTL/IP code, not software, which means, not matter software do, it is auxiliary for RTL/IP guys.
Therefore, higher level manager of our group, think RTL guys are important than software guys, it demonstrate in the material aspect.

On the other aspect, higher level manager does not know software became more and more complex than when several years before, when he is a engineer.
Maybe in his opinion, lower level software is just read/write register, touch some hardware, or configure works, as soon as it finished, there’s no of software business again.

And third, as IP is group milk cow, but not software, there fore, IP project is a project, but software, not, what I mean is the software guys act as:

IP tester
when needed, quickly develop a software, then another place needed another software function, develop another software tool/code again. The software not develop/manage as a project, but just a piece of code, not take reusable into account.
Do you think in this kind group is a good place for software engineers?
How to demonstrate that software engineer’s importance?
Can group based on IP products, pay more attention to software groups?

Alex_Grig · November 18, 2013, 11:41pm

The IP is only worth as much as it’s able to work with the software. If the chip design doesn’t match the spec, it’s unusable. Money and time to market lost. It’s the software engineers who validate that the chip works with off-the-shelf software.

It’s better to have it completely validated before you do a tapeout and run a batch of wafers. Set of masks for a modern process runs in $ millions. You don’t want to waste it. Even if it’s possible to do metal fix sometimes, it still costs money.

wesley · November 19, 2013, 4:54am

but the fact is:

higher level group manager pay more attention on the IP product quality
more chance for promotion than software guys
more promotion on salary/material

What software guys do:
help find the bugs in the IP
firmwares
work as decoder to analyzing the PCIe trace, very low effectiveness, but tired, routine work, no technology, but familiarize.
some tools(software, but does not take reusable into account)

Does this related to management?

Maxim_S_Shatskih · November 19, 2013, 7:52am

> 1. Do you think in this kind group is a good place for software engineers?

This is more a human question.

Tell the boss that he is producting the hardware not for the vacuum, and not for the Ideal World of Perfect Software, but for the platform and for the OS (for Windows and Linux, for instance).

Windows and Linux is the same way by far greater than your hardware as, say, PCIe spec. All of these things will never bend to your boss’s wish, but vice versa is inevitable.

Also note: forget “standards”. “Standard” is “what Linus and his friends decided to commit to the latest master version”. They are smart guys and usually do the things right, but do not consider their work as God-Given Gospel.

Same with MS, except you deal with some anonymous people instead of Linus there, and often the anonymous poor marketoids (not even engineers), who just managed to fail nearly the whole mobile device market, starting from nearly the pole position on it

So, one should have considerable Windows and Linux knowledge to be the successful HW designer.

You can tell the boss. Will he listen? depends. Bosses - as all other people - are different

–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Microsoft MVP on File System And Storage
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

Tim_Roberts · November 19, 2013, 12:42pm

workingmailing@163.com wrote:

but the fact is:

higher level group manager pay more attention on the IP product quality

more chance for promotion than software guys

more promotion on salary/material

What software guys do:
help find the bugs in the IP
firmwares
work as decoder to analyzing the PCIe trace, very low effectiveness, but tired, routine work, no technology, but familiarize.
some tools(software, but does not take reusable into account)

This is not terribly uncommon in a company that is focused on hardware.
That’s partly how driver consultants like me stay in business.
Diagnostic software can be entertaining, and you do have several
advantages. For example, you never have to deal with idiotic customer
support complaints from the general public, most of whom are dumb as a
stump. You rarely have to deal with oppressive coding standards handed
down from on high, but that doesn’t mean you can skip using coding
standards. It means it’s going to be up to you to be a professional
programmer. It’s up to YOU to use good practices. It’s up to YOU to
build up a library of good, reusable code modules.

One of the things a position like that lets you do is experiment. You
can do your diagnostics in C# or even F# if you want. Who would care?
I have a couple of clients who do all of their diagnostic software in
Python. They have a C++ library that talks to the low-level hardware,
with a Python wrapper that lets you experiment much more easily. It’s
very easy to build a command-line debugging tool using the Python
interpreter.

I have another client who does the same thing with Tcl/Tk, but let’s not
go there.

–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

OSR_Community_User · November 19, 2013, 2:07pm

Wow!!
Let me just say that sending such emails in a group like this is not really the RIGHT thing to do.
Let’s see what software guys do…

Write OS.
Write RDBMS.
Write huge top notch search engines which makes companies like google.
Last but not least, expose and abstract your device to the rest of the world to use in a correct fashion.

You name a chip company and you will find that the ratio of software engineers to hardware engineers is almost 50-50.
Today if you underestimate software the companies cannot be competitive.

Wake up Sir the world is a different place now.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of workingmailing@163.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 1:55 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] software guys lower importance than RTL(IP code implementor) guys, really

but the fact is:

higher level group manager pay more attention on the IP product quality
more chance for promotion than software guys
more promotion on salary/material

What software guys do:
help find the bugs in the IP
firmwares
work as decoder to analyzing the PCIe trace, very low effectiveness, but tired, routine work, no technology, but familiarize.
some tools(software, but does not take reusable into account)

Does this related to management?

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

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OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

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Chris_Aseltine · November 19, 2013, 3:32pm

Ajitabh Saxena wrote:

Let me just say that sending such emails in a group like this is
not really the RIGHT thing to do.

Why not? I’ve found that most +86 and +91 posters to this list will simply come on, pose their question (which often makes no sense), and then disappear once they think they have their answer (or that no one is going to give them an answer.)

In contrast, “wesley” here is demonstrating (at least to me) a pretty remarkable amount of self-awareness compared to his peers/cousins in asking how he can demonstrate value as a driver developer. Seems like a good enough question to be asking to me.

Peter_Viscarola_OSR · November 19, 2013, 4:19pm

Took me a minute.

We definitely have a number of both +86 and +91 members who contribute answers… So, let’s not be TOO broad-brush about this, mmmmkay?

Peter
OSR

OSR_Community_User · November 19, 2013, 4:29pm

What is a “+86 poster?”

Curious,
Jake
(Clearly not as quick as Peter today)

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 1:20 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] software guys lower importance than RTL(IP code implementor) guys, really

Took me a minute.

We definitely have a number of both +86 and +91 members who contribute answers… So, let’s not be TOO broad-brush about this, mmmmkay?

Peter
OSR

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

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mm1 · November 19, 2013, 4:33pm

+1

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

Jake Oshins wrote:

What is a “+86 poster?”

Curious,
Jake
(Clearly not as quick as Peter today)

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
xxxxx@osr.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 1:20 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] software guys lower importance than RTL(IP code
implementor) guys, really

Took me a minute.

We definitely have a number of both +86 and +91 members who contribute
answers… So, let’s not be TOO broad-brush about this, mmmmkay?

Peter
OSR

—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

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—
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Daniel_Terhell · November 19, 2013, 4:35pm

>What is a “+86 poster?”

Think country code. I’m off to +91 next week and will stay in paradise till
spring.

//Daniel

Gregory_G_Dyess · November 19, 2013, 5:11pm

Thanks for asking. Now I know I’m not the only one…

— xxxxx@microsoft.com wrote:

From: Jake Oshins
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Subject: RE: RE:[ntdev] software guys lower importance than RTL(IP code implementor) guys, really
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:28:44 +0000

What is a “+86 poster?”

Curious,
Jake
(Clearly not as quick as Peter today)

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 1:20 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] software guys lower importance than RTL(IP code implementor) guys, really

Took me a minute.

We definitely have a number of both +86 and +91 members who contribute answers… So, let’s not be TOO broad-brush about this, mmmmkay?

Peter
OSR

—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

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To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

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Pavel_A1 · November 19, 2013, 6:49pm

On 20-Nov-2013 00:10, Gregory G Dyess wrote:

Thanks for asking. Now I know I’m not the only one…

Intl. phone codes of China and India (-_-)

OSR_Community_User · November 19, 2013, 7:05pm

It is a large, rectangular shape, traditionally 15" wide and 28" high (the
pun being that its perimeter is 86 inches). You can buy cheap knockoffs
printed on paper (and sold rolled-up) for about $5.95 in most stores. But
the best are bonded to foam board, and you typically find these in
higher-end “art” shops. They are blank, and you can provide your own
material for “poster sessions”. Some people just hang the blank poster on
the wall and claim they can get hours of restful contemplation by staring
at it.

The +91 came about as the consequence of a serious of one-upmanships
between graduate students doing poster sessions at a University of
Oklahoma conference in 1991; the year and the increased perimeter were
mere coincidences, but it does make it easier to remember the year. I
don’t recall the dimensions of the +91 poster.

The more you know…
joe

Thanks for asking. Now I know I’m not the only one…

— xxxxx@microsoft.com wrote:

From: Jake Oshins
> To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
> Subject: RE: RE:[ntdev] software guys lower importance than RTL(IP code
> implementor) guys, really
> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:28:44 +0000
>
> What is a “+86 poster?”
>
> Curious,
> Jake
> (Clearly not as quick as Peter today)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 1:20 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE:[ntdev] software guys lower importance than RTL(IP code
> implementor) guys, really
>
>

>
> Took me a minute.
>
> We definitely have a number of both +86 and +91 members who contribute
> answers… So, let’s not be TOO broad-brush about this, mmmmkay?
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
>
> OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
>
> OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
>
> OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

OSR_Community_User · November 19, 2013, 7:49pm

I once had, in my class, a “hardware engineer” who created new and
wondrous devices. He knew virtually nothing about hardware. But he would
write, in a VHDL, the “program” for the device, and after some
machinations, out the back came a set of masks for the fab line.

The software allowed him to test the device, even test the device under
marginal conditions, and create the timing diagrams for the pinouts as
well. "I write programs every day, yet I’m designated as a “hardware
designer” he told me. In his earlier years, he admitted, before he
understood operating systems, he had produced designs that were
unsupportable in modern operating systems, “But I learned, and I haven’t
done that in at least 15 years.”

He was taking my course because he wanted to understand more what a
Windows programmer saw regarding his devices. They did not have the
budget to send their regular software people to the course, so he was
expected to go back and teach them.

He had designed ISA, PCI, PCMCIA (People Can’t Manage Computer Industry
Acronyms), CardBus, Ethernet-based and was moving into USB-based products.
joe

Wow!!

Let me just say that sending such emails in a group like this is not
really the RIGHT thing to do.
Let’s see what software guys do…

Write OS.

Write RDBMS.

Write huge top notch search engines which makes companies like google.

Last but not least, expose and abstract your device to the rest of the
world to use in a correct fashion.

You name a chip company and you will find that the ratio of software
engineers to hardware engineers is almost 50-50.
Today if you underestimate software the companies cannot be competitive.

Wake up Sir the world is a different place now.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
workingmailing@163.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 1:55 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] software guys lower importance than RTL(IP code
implementor) guys, really

but the fact is:

higher level group manager pay more attention on the IP product quality

more chance for promotion than software guys

more promotion on salary/material

What software guys do:
help find the bugs in the IP
firmwares
work as decoder to analyzing the PCIe trace, very low effectiveness, but
tired, routine work, no technology, but familiarize.
some tools(software, but does not take reusable into account)

Does this related to management?

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

OSR_Community_User · November 19, 2013, 9:30pm

Very well put !!

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@flounder.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 4:49 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: RE:[ntdev] software guys lower importance than RTL(IP code implementor) guys, really

I once had, in my class, a “hardware engineer” who created new and
wondrous devices. He knew virtually nothing about hardware. But he would
write, in a VHDL, the “program” for the device, and after some
machinations, out the back came a set of masks for the fab line.

The software allowed him to test the device, even test the device under
marginal conditions, and create the timing diagrams for the pinouts as
well. "I write programs every day, yet I’m designated as a “hardware
designer” he told me. In his earlier years, he admitted, before he
understood operating systems, he had produced designs that were
unsupportable in modern operating systems, “But I learned, and I haven’t
done that in at least 15 years.”

He was taking my course because he wanted to understand more what a
Windows programmer saw regarding his devices. They did not have the
budget to send their regular software people to the course, so he was
expected to go back and teach them.

He had designed ISA, PCI, PCMCIA (People Can’t Manage Computer Industry
Acronyms), CardBus, Ethernet-based and was moving into USB-based products.
joe

Wow!!

Let me just say that sending such emails in a group like this is not
really the RIGHT thing to do.
Let’s see what software guys do…

Write OS.

Write RDBMS.

Write huge top notch search engines which makes companies like google.

Last but not least, expose and abstract your device to the rest of the
world to use in a correct fashion.

You name a chip company and you will find that the ratio of software
engineers to hardware engineers is almost 50-50.
Today if you underestimate software the companies cannot be competitive.

Wake up Sir the world is a different place now.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
workingmailing@163.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 1:55 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] software guys lower importance than RTL(IP code
implementor) guys, really

but the fact is:

higher level group manager pay more attention on the IP product quality

more chance for promotion than software guys

more promotion on salary/material

What software guys do:
help find the bugs in the IP
firmwares
work as decoder to analyzing the PCIe trace, very low effectiveness, but
tired, routine work, no technology, but familiarize.
some tools(software, but does not take reusable into account)

Does this related to management?

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

wesley · November 20, 2013, 5:03am

Actually, I have my experience in my former employer.

We develop PCTV driver based on AVStream/BDA framework.

At first, our CTO(windows driver background, but his windows understanding/knowledge is stale) consider that – “we should not always do what Microsoft ask us to do”.
Therefore, at first, we develop a very simple driver, just capture the TV data, and send it to higher level App(which is also not AVStream/BDA framework).

But we found that other company, include TV players, and drivers of TV tuners all comply with the avstream bda framwork.

Therefore, we restart our windows driver project.

In this time, the ASIC manager(who is also windows driver background, but also stale), jump out, and he recommend himself to give our driver/software guys a lesson of windows driver.
But his did not know what is AVStream/BDA, what is WDM, in his think, windows driver is very simple, just for configuration and register read/write.
From then on, this manager do not give any comments/suggestion on driver, but some time, complain about our driver quality.

With our driver pass the WHQL certification, and because our driver is a product as important as the chips, and with our new driver could talk with all tv players which also comply with bda framework, and support for OEMs software engineer to help them integrate our driver code into there software, or totally used by OEMs, our CTO, pay more and more attention to driver group.