Re: [ntdev] Off-topic Meta-Discussion

I suspect two key reasons for overall decline:

Better tools from Microsoft lead to fewer questions; and

Vista was a long time ago now and no similar paradigm shifts have happened (VS is back, but that is less dramatic I think)

Sent from Surface Pro

From: xxxxx@osr.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎10‎, ‎2015 ‎10‎:‎29‎ ‎AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List

There’s been a steady decline over the years in the number of posts.

If you go back to 2010, we averaged almost 2,000 posts a month. If you look at 2014, we averaged about 1,000.

We had a significant drop-off in November 2014… anybody have any idea why that would be?

I’ll be back in a second to deal with Mr. Bassov’s post…

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

Also, I think that the total volume of what we would call professional development has declined for all platforms. This kind of development costs real money and many companies are simply not investing in R&D. And for those that are, how many junior / trainees have you seen recently? Experienced developers ask fewer questions then they answer

MSFT has spent the past 10+ years working hard to make all of there products more robust and reliable. This also makes it harder for us to hang ourselves with bad code and reduces the amount of arcane knowledge needed

Sent from Surface Pro

From: Don Burn
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎11‎, ‎2015 ‎11‎:‎48‎ ‎AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List

Actually, there has been a decrease in questions on the Microsoft WDK forum also. I answer a lot there, and there have been a number of weekends in the last 6 months where no questions were asked.

I think it is a combination of a lot of things that is slowing down the questions on the Microsoft forum and here. Some of these are good, and some are terrible, the good include:

  1. Microsoft keeps improving the documentation, this eliminates a lot of questions
  2. WDF has made it easier to develop drivers, so a lot of things people used to ask about are handled by the framework
  3. The Visual Studio integration has eliminated a large class of “how to build things” questions

On the bad:

  1. There are a lot of firms that are drinking the “PC is dead” or the “Windows is dead, Linux rules everywhere” koolaid, and not targeting Windows at all. Fortunately, this is changing I am getting queries from people who said “We need help for a Windows version of our product ASAP, our customers won’t commit without Windows support”
  2. The recession did hit a lot the Windows space hard, this is improving.
  3. There are a lot more samples on the web for Windows drivers, this should be good but a lot of them are pure garbage.

Finally, lot of work was off shored, and in many of the countries that it moved to the community there is trying to answer the questions. Whether this is good or bad, is hard to say, but when the questions do percolate up to Microsoft forums, many times the best answer would be “kill off the project team and start over”

Don Burn
Windows Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

I may be obtuse, but WHQL and code signing have no bearing on hobby programming nor embedded or special closed environment deployments. For mass market distribution, these costs are (or should be) incidental. What am I missing?

Sent from Surface Pro

From: xxxxx@gmail.com
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎March‎ ‎12‎, ‎2015 ‎8‎:‎18‎ ‎PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List

And how do we get around the cost of whql?


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

While I agree that for what they provide, the public CAs are stupidly expressive, a few hundred dollars for a certificate is a rounding error versus the cost of development of any quality driver. It is an extra cost no doubt, but the equivalent number of dollars get burned up in the first hour I look into a problem

On the other hand, I also have not bought a public certificate since 2002. After that we implemented our own private CA and because we don’t care about mass distribution over the internet, but only within our own enterprise, we have no need for a public cert. notwithstanding the many open source solutions, anyone with a copy of Windows server 2003 or later can do the same for free

Sent from Surface Pro

From: xxxxx@osr.com
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎March‎ ‎13‎, ‎2015 ‎5‎:‎16‎ ‎PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List

code signing certs are stupidly expensive.

Wait until you see what “Extended Validation” Code Signing Certs cost.

Whew!

I agree with Mr. Burn and Mr. Roddy: There’s no point in signing drivers unless you’re SHIPPING those drivers to end-user customers. We *do* have code signing certs for things like our tools and our toolkits. But we have *never* signed a custom development project using one of our certs. OTOH, we *have* done the signing (and WHQL) process on behalf of clients and used THEIR cert to sign their project.

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

It is also interesting to note that running MS OSes on Hyper-V enables the Para-virtualization that doesn’t work when you mix platforms between host and guest. Para-virtualization is vital for any performance sensitive application, so this is a good reason not to mix platform - either stick with *NIX and VMWare or Hyper-V and Windows

From another point of view, it is good to mix platforms because the bugs and vulnerabilities from one platform probably won’t overlap with the other, so it might be harder to hack into a host OS from a compromised guest if they are different

Sent from Surface Pro

From: Jan Bottorff
Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎March‎ ‎16‎, ‎2015 ‎4‎:‎48‎ ‎AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List

Last I checked (less than a year ago), VirtualBox’s license ONLY allowed an individual to install it. It would be a license violation to create a master image and distribute that image to many systems in your company. VirtualBox is only “free” for “individual” use. The license does not prohibit an individual in a company from personally installing a copy.

The licensing makes a huge cost difference in hypervisors. Say you want to run 20 Windows VMs as your server workload. If you run Windows Server 2012 R2 Datacenter Edition, you get license passthrough to as many VMs as you want, at no additional cost. If you run VMWare, or a Linux hypervisor, you will either need to license each Windows VM OS (you will need 20 OS licenses), or you will need to buy a copy of Windows Server 2012 R2 Datacenter Edition for your machine running VMWare/Linux (which get’s assigned to the machine so you get the license passthrough, even though it’s running VMWare/Linux).

When you do the math of license costs, if you want/need to run Windows VMs, running a Microsoft hypervisor is extremely cost attractive. An interesting side effect of this is if you run your workload in VMs, the cost differential between running all free Linux systems, and all Windows systems get’s a lot smaller. Microsoft also has extremely attractive pricing on bundled OS+System Center management tools. On a big server you might run 100 VMs, and a single dual physical processor Datacenter license is like $6000, vs 100 OS licenses for VMs at like $1000 each, saving you $94,000 (per physical server).

Jan

On 3/15/15, 2:20 PM, “Martin O’Brien” wrote:

>Interesting - why do you prefer VirtualBox over VMWare, Max?
>
>Just curious. I’ve used both. I prefer VMWare Workstation, though I
>thought that VBox worked pretty well too, especially for the price.
>
>It does have an absolutely maddening code base, IMO - an endless layer of
>abstractions - though I’m by far most familiar with Xen’s, which is pretty
>much the opposite of that.
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>mm
>-----Original Message-----
>From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
>Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 2:11 PM
>To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
>Subject: Re:[ntdev] Off-topic Meta-Discussion
>
>>> VMWare is evil :slight_smile: consider Virtual PC or Hyper-V
>>
>> What else can be expected from our “Windows Fanboy”???
>
>I can add that VirtualBox is good :slight_smile:
>
>I don’t know why people are using clumsy VMWare products. There are better
>free alternatives, both from MS and open source world.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> With the other stuff: there is a conspiracy theory that all
>>> anti-monopoly stuff against MS was due to Big Guys desire to disallow
>>> BillG from going the really serious and influential (not IT toys)
>>> business with his billions. There is even a conspiracy theory that MS
>>> is a secret daughter company of IBM, or both of them are actually owned
>by the same group (Rockfellers?) of the Big Guys from Wall Street.
>>
>>
>> Yes, and they all are controlled by the reptilian master race anyway -
>after all, once schizophrenia starts kicking in only sky is the limit…
>>
>>
>> Anton Bassov
>>
>
>—
>NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
>Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
>
>OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
>
>For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
>http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
>To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
>http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>
>—
>NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
>Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
>
>OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
>
>For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
>http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
>To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

There seems to be lots of 'hardware’ that Linux likes. That doesn’t necessarily make it a good match

Sent from Surface Pro

From: Maxim S. Shatskih
Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎March‎ ‎16‎, ‎2015 ‎7‎:‎49‎ ‎PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List

Linux is VERY much fine in Hyper-V.

IIRC Hyper-V, from the guest point of view, is the same as Xen.


Maxim S. Shatskih
Microsoft MVP on File System And Storage
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

“Marion Bond” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…

It is also interesting to note that running MS OSes on Hyper-V enables the Para-virtualization that doesn’t work when you mix platforms between host and guest. Para-virtualization is vital for any performance sensitive application, so this is a good reason not to mix platform - either stick with *NIX and VMWare or Hyper-V and Windows

From another point of view, it is good to mix platforms because the bugs and vulnerabilities from one platform probably won’t overlap with the other, so it might be harder to hack into a host OS from a compromised guest if they are different

Sent from Surface Pro

From: Jan Bottorff
Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎March‎ ‎16‎, ‎2015 ‎4‎:‎48‎ ‎AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List

Last I checked (less than a year ago), VirtualBox’s license ONLY allowed an individual to install it. It would be a license violation to create a master image and distribute that image to many systems in your company. VirtualBox is only “free” for “individual” use. The license does not prohibit an individual in a company from personally installing a copy.

The licensing makes a huge cost difference in hypervisors. Say you want to run 20 Windows VMs as your server workload. If you run Windows Server 2012 R2 Datacenter Edition, you get license passthrough to as many VMs as you want, at no additional cost. If you run VMWare, or a Linux hypervisor, you will either need to license each Windows VM OS (you will need 20 OS licenses), or you will need to buy a copy of Windows Server 2012 R2 Datacenter Edition for your machine running VMWare/Linux (which get’s assigned to the machine so you get the license passthrough, even though it’s running VMWare/Linux).

When you do the math of license costs, if you want/need to run Windows VMs, running a Microsoft hypervisor is extremely cost attractive. An interesting side effect of this is if you run your workload in VMs, the cost differential between running all free Linux systems, and all Windows systems get’s a lot smaller. Microsoft also has extremely attractive pricing on bundled OS+System Center management tools. On a big server you might run 100 VMs, and a single dual physical processor Datacenter license is like $6000, vs 100 OS licenses for VMs at like $1000 each, saving you $94,000 (per physical server).

Jan

On 3/15/15, 2:20 PM, “Martin O’Brien” wrote:

>Interesting - why do you prefer VirtualBox over VMWare, Max?
>
>Just curious. I’ve used both. I prefer VMWare Workstation, though I
>thought that VBox worked pretty well too, especially for the price.
>
>It does have an absolutely maddening code base, IMO - an endless layer of
>abstractions - though I’m by far most familiar with Xen’s, which is pretty
>much the opposite of that.
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>mm
>-----Original Message-----
>From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
>Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 2:11 PM
>To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
>Subject: Re:[ntdev] Off-topic Meta-Discussion
>
>>> VMWare is evil :slight_smile: consider Virtual PC or Hyper-V
>>
>> What else can be expected from our “Windows Fanboy”???
>
>I can add that VirtualBox is good :slight_smile:
>
>I don’t know why people are using clumsy VMWare products. There are better
>free alternatives, both from MS and open source world.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> With the other stuff: there is a conspiracy theory that all
>>> anti-monopoly stuff against MS was due to Big Guys desire to disallow
>>> BillG from going the really serious and influential (not IT toys)
>>> business with his billions. There is even a conspiracy theory that MS
>>> is a secret daughter company of IBM, or both of them are actually owned
>by the same group (Rockfellers?) of the Big Guys from Wall Street.
>>
>>
>> Yes, and they all are controlled by the reptilian master race anyway -
>after all, once schizophrenia starts kicking in only sky is the limit…
>>
>>
>> Anton Bassov
>>
>
>—
>NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
>Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
>
>OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
>
>For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
>http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
>To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
>http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>
>—
>NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
>Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
>
>OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
>
>For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
>http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
>To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

Anton

Remember the old quote about open source? It is only free if your time is also free

What you say is true, and embedded Linux is almost certainly the best choice for what Mike needs, but I for one would feel better about agreeing with you if you weren’t chronically a wet blanket about everything but. You are clearly an individual with a plus IQ, but you should give us all some credit too

Sent from Surface Pro

From: xxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎17‎, ‎2015 ‎9‎:‎23‎ ‎PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List

Mike,

To be honest, I don’t really understand what you are up to. If you just want to do Linux embedded you don’t really need a Linux host. What you need is, first, an emulator of your target platform, and, second, a toolchain (which,at the very minimum, includes an assembler, a compiler and a debugger for your target architecture). One can be almost certain that you will be provided with all of the above mentioned things(apparently, as parts of a full-fledged IDE), as well as with pre-built embedded Linux image and a set of development libraries, headers and samples, by your development board vendor. You will be given an option of your host system, so that you will be able to get your IDE for Windows or Mac if you wish, and,hence, do all your embedded Linux development on your Windows machine. Judging from what you say, this is exactly what you need. If you want something a bit more than that…well, more on it below.

I am hoping Linux is the way to go

Correct…

Linux is, indeed, the best possible option for any technically-minded person. Why? Simply because you immediately get an access to a plethora of free development tools that you can use, weak and modify as you wish . For example, in your particular case you may want to build your own toolchain,
to launch your own Linux distro from the scratch, or to extend QUEMU and add a support to some piece of hardware that does not yet exist( because you are about to design it) to it, or even try some new architecture that you are about to launch. In the latter case simply building your toolchain will not suffice, for understandable reasons - you will have to port it to your architecture. In other words, everything depends on your objectives - you will be able to find an approach that best suits your particular needs and your available timeframe.

This is not limited to software development. For example, you will get an access to a suit of free
electronics development tools (both digital electronics tools like Icarus Verilog and analogue ones like GEDA suit),as well as NGSPICE simulator. The latter one is a particularly powerful tool that allows you to go as far as running a mixed-signal simulation (with some rather convoluted steps, I admit). However, proprietary “easy-to-use” SPICEs that target only Windows hosts and don’t require steps like that are going to cost you many thousands USD a year per seat, while NGSPICE is absolutely free…

Sure you can build and install at least some of open-source tools under Windows as well. However, the available choice and overall flexibility that Linux offers just cannot be compared to that Windows. You have to try it - you are going to see it yourself…

Anton Bassov


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer