Re: Certification for windows device driver developer s

Let’s not deviate too much. Patients do not relate to Doctors
as Employers to Employees. Patients have no reasonable means
to evaluate Doctors’ expertise. Some kind of public institution
is required to do that for them. No so for Employers. Your point
is thus not acceptable. Let’s not go outside of facts and history
of our industry. When our company tries to hire a driver developer
he is invited for interview by his would-be-peers. This certification
process works very reliably. There are no mistakes made. Now, imagine
a guy appears with a certificate issued by Microsoft. Would we hire
him without our interview now? Stupid question, don’t you think?
Ok, Ok, if an employer gets many resumes, half of them certified,
they might put them to the head of the interview line. That’s all
the cert would buy for them. But I don’t think it would be a smart
move. Really good people are too busy to spend weeks preparing for
a certification.

— “Roddy, Mark” wrote:
> Er no, doctors go to school for whatever, but in order to practice in a
> specialty they get ‘board certified’ by the appropriate professional
> association, who may also decertify them. Before you propose a
> counterfactual you really ought to find out if it is true.
>
> A simple google of:
> medical certification process
> would have prevented this mistake.
>
> For example: http://www.abns.org/certproc.htm
>
> I have no problem with software professionals getting certified in their
> area of expertise, as long as the process is fair and reasonable.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Asher Hoodin [mailto:xxxxx@aam-ch.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 1:04 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > developer s
> >
> >
> >
> > They dont get certified they go to college for 10 years.
> > Big difference. Certification = waste.
> >
> > HAND,
> > Asher
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Roddy, Mark
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:32 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > developer s
> >
> >
> > You feel the same way about certification of other
> > professionals, such as, for example, doctors?
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ntdev Reader [mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:29 PM
> > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > developers
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah, certification is really a VERY BAD idea. What it will
> > > turn into is that bosses around will start requiring the
> > > certification and driver developers will have to pay money to
> > > the certifying authority maybe even including travelling
> > > there, for who would certify you by e-mail or phone? And your
> > > current boss will not pay for this, for he already knows your
> > > abilities. You will have to pay yourself, to get a
> > > certificate before you find another job. So, this will just
> > > transfer money from your pocket to the certifier, and won’t
> > > make you any better developer. And they still won’t hire
> > > people without experience :slight_smile:
> > >
> > > What the original poster’s boss is looking for is likely to
> > > find pretexts to be able to lay off somebody if a need
> > > arises. The only cure for this is to spend more time learning
> > > and demonstrating to him that you can to a good job. The boss
> > > needs reliable drivers in predictable time. If you can give
> > > him this, he will love you. Otherwise no certification will help.
> > >
> > > — Asher Hoodin wrote:
> > > > OSR already has seminars. Other companies have WDM
> > > Training. Bother
> > > > to look at the OSR web sight. As for certification in
> > > general…well
> > > > MCSE failed miserably at making an inexperienced workforce
> > > any good.
> > > > Nobody I have ever met is an MCSD. Maybe your boss should
> > > spring for
> > > > some seminars. I am sure that some third party companies
> > > have testing
> > > > available. I will forward
> > > > the names of the companies shortly.
> > > >
> > > > Asher
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Guys,
> > > > >
> > > > > These not being the best of times, my Boss wants me take
> > > some sort
> > > > > of tests to quantify my proficiency in Windows device driver
> > > > > development.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does any one of you know of good certifying authorities in
> > > > > driverland. If there are no one, does OSR plan to certify?
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Vinay.
> > > > >
> > > > > —
> > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > xxxxx@jil.co.in
> > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@aam-ch.com To
> > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com To
> > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > http://games.yahoo.com/
> >
> > —
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com To
> > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> >
> > —
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@aam-ch.com
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> >
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

You are assuming no one consults on Windows drivers aren’t you? How do you
judge the consultant?


Bill McKenzie

“Ntdev Reader” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> Let’s not deviate too much. Patients do not relate to Doctors
> as Employers to Employees. Patients have no reasonable means
> to evaluate Doctors’ expertise. Some kind of public institution
> is required to do that for them. No so for Employers. Your point
> is thus not acceptable. Let’s not go outside of facts and history
> of our industry. When our company tries to hire a driver developer
> he is invited for interview by his would-be-peers. This certification
> process works very reliably. There are no mistakes made. Now, imagine
> a guy appears with a certificate issued by Microsoft. Would we hire
> him without our interview now? Stupid question, don’t you think?
> Ok, Ok, if an employer gets many resumes, half of them certified,
> they might put them to the head of the interview line. That’s all
> the cert would buy for them. But I don’t think it would be a smart
> move. Really good people are too busy to spend weeks preparing for
> a certification.
>
> — “Roddy, Mark” wrote:
> > Er no, doctors go to school for whatever, but in order to practice in a
> > specialty they get ‘board certified’ by the appropriate professional
> > association, who may also decertify them. Before you propose a
> > counterfactual you really ought to find out if it is true.
> >
> > A simple google of:
> > medical certification process
> > would have prevented this mistake.
> >
> > For example: http://www.abns.org/certproc.htm
> >
> > I have no problem with software professionals getting certified in their
> > area of expertise, as long as the process is fair and reasonable.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Asher Hoodin [mailto:xxxxx@aam-ch.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 1:04 PM
> > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > developer s
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > They dont get certified they go to college for 10 years.
> > > Big difference. Certification = waste.
> > >
> > > HAND,
> > > Asher
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Roddy, Mark
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:32 PM
> > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > developer s
> > >
> > >
> > > You feel the same way about certification of other
> > > professionals, such as, for example, doctors?
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ntdev Reader [mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:29 PM
> > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > developers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, certification is really a VERY BAD idea. What it will
> > > > turn into is that bosses around will start requiring the
> > > > certification and driver developers will have to pay money to
> > > > the certifying authority maybe even including travelling
> > > > there, for who would certify you by e-mail or phone? And your
> > > > current boss will not pay for this, for he already knows your
> > > > abilities. You will have to pay yourself, to get a
> > > > certificate before you find another job. So, this will just
> > > > transfer money from your pocket to the certifier, and won’t
> > > > make you any better developer. And they still won’t hire
> > > > people without experience :slight_smile:
> > > >
> > > > What the original poster’s boss is looking for is likely to
> > > > find pretexts to be able to lay off somebody if a need
> > > > arises. The only cure for this is to spend more time learning
> > > > and demonstrating to him that you can to a good job. The boss
> > > > needs reliable drivers in predictable time. If you can give
> > > > him this, he will love you. Otherwise no certification will help.
> > > >
> > > > — Asher Hoodin wrote:
> > > > > OSR already has seminars. Other companies have WDM
> > > > Training. Bother
> > > > > to look at the OSR web sight. As for certification in
> > > > general…well
> > > > > MCSE failed miserably at making an inexperienced workforce
> > > > any good.
> > > > > Nobody I have ever met is an MCSD. Maybe your boss should
> > > > spring for
> > > > > some seminars. I am sure that some third party companies
> > > > have testing
> > > > > available. I will forward
> > > > > the names of the companies shortly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Asher
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Guys,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > These not being the best of times, my Boss wants me take
> > > > some sort
> > > > > > of tests to quantify my proficiency in Windows device driver
> > > > > > development.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does any one of you know of good certifying authorities in
> > > > > > driverland. If there are no one, does OSR plan to certify?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Vinay.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > —
> > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > > xxxxx@jil.co.in
> > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > —
> > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@aam-ch.com To
> > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > —
> > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com To
> > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > > http://games.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > > —
> > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com To
> > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > >
> > > —
> > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@aam-ch.com
> > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > —
> > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com
> > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > >
> >
> > —
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
>
>
>

> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> http://games.yahoo.com/
>
>

The measure here is competency … not the number of letters after your
signature. Measuring competency is a yardstick that is difficult to find.
How does a potential contractee determine if a potential contractor is
blowing smoke? One has 20 years in the industry, millions of lines of code
under his belt, personally knows Walter Oney, has had lunch with Jamey
Hanrahan, but only has a degree in Phys Ed. The other has a doctorate from
MIT, half the alphabet after his name, wrote his thesis on Framii, has
heard of Walter, thought Jamie was a myth, and sacrifices goats to Max
weekly. Who should the employer issue the contract, to write a driver for a
100 terabit Red Widget?

Maybe we all need signs like Bill Engvals “STUPID” signs.

Gary G. Little
xxxxx@broadstor.com
xxxxx@inland.net

“Bill McKenzie” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> You are assuming no one consults on Windows drivers aren’t you? How do
you
> judge the consultant?
>
> –
> Bill McKenzie
>
>
>
> “Ntdev Reader” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> > Let’s not deviate too much. Patients do not relate to Doctors
> > as Employers to Employees. Patients have no reasonable means
> > to evaluate Doctors’ expertise. Some kind of public institution
> > is required to do that for them. No so for Employers. Your point
> > is thus not acceptable. Let’s not go outside of facts and history
> > of our industry. When our company tries to hire a driver developer
> > he is invited for interview by his would-be-peers. This certification
> > process works very reliably. There are no mistakes made. Now, imagine
> > a guy appears with a certificate issued by Microsoft. Would we hire
> > him without our interview now? Stupid question, don’t you think?
> > Ok, Ok, if an employer gets many resumes, half of them certified,
> > they might put them to the head of the interview line. That’s all
> > the cert would buy for them. But I don’t think it would be a smart
> > move. Really good people are too busy to spend weeks preparing for
> > a certification.
> >
> > — “Roddy, Mark” wrote:
> > > Er no, doctors go to school for whatever, but in order to practice in
a
> > > specialty they get ‘board certified’ by the appropriate professional
> > > association, who may also decertify them. Before you propose a
> > > counterfactual you really ought to find out if it is true.
> > >
> > > A simple google of:
> > > medical certification process
> > > would have prevented this mistake.
> > >
> > > For example: http://www.abns.org/certproc.htm
> > >
> > > I have no problem with software professionals getting certified in
their
> > > area of expertise, as long as the process is fair and reasonable.
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Asher Hoodin [mailto:xxxxx@aam-ch.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 1:04 PM
> > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > developer s
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > They dont get certified they go to college for 10 years.
> > > > Big difference. Certification = waste.
> > > >
> > > > HAND,
> > > > Asher
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Roddy, Mark
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:32 PM
> > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > developer s
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You feel the same way about certification of other
> > > > professionals, such as, for example, doctors?
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Ntdev Reader [mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:29 PM
> > > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > > developers
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah, certification is really a VERY BAD idea. What it will
> > > > > turn into is that bosses around will start requiring the
> > > > > certification and driver developers will have to pay money to
> > > > > the certifying authority maybe even including travelling
> > > > > there, for who would certify you by e-mail or phone? And your
> > > > > current boss will not pay for this, for he already knows your
> > > > > abilities. You will have to pay yourself, to get a
> > > > > certificate before you find another job. So, this will just
> > > > > transfer money from your pocket to the certifier, and won’t
> > > > > make you any better developer. And they still won’t hire
> > > > > people without experience :slight_smile:
> > > > >
> > > > > What the original poster’s boss is looking for is likely to
> > > > > find pretexts to be able to lay off somebody if a need
> > > > > arises. The only cure for this is to spend more time learning
> > > > > and demonstrating to him that you can to a good job. The boss
> > > > > needs reliable drivers in predictable time. If you can give
> > > > > him this, he will love you. Otherwise no certification will help.
> > > > >
> > > > > — Asher Hoodin wrote:
> > > > > > OSR already has seminars. Other companies have WDM
> > > > > Training. Bother
> > > > > > to look at the OSR web sight. As for certification in
> > > > > general…well
> > > > > > MCSE failed miserably at making an inexperienced workforce
> > > > > any good.
> > > > > > Nobody I have ever met is an MCSD. Maybe your boss should
> > > > > spring for
> > > > > > some seminars. I am sure that some third party companies
> > > > > have testing
> > > > > > available. I will forward
> > > > > > the names of the companies shortly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Asher
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Guys,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > These not being the best of times, my Boss wants me take
> > > > > some sort
> > > > > > > of tests to quantify my proficiency in Windows device driver
> > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does any one of you know of good certifying authorities in
> > > > > > > driverland. If there are no one, does OSR plan to certify?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > Vinay.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > > > xxxxx@jil.co.in
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > —
> > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@aam-ch.com To
> > > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > —
> > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com To
> > > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > > > http://games.yahoo.com/
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com To
> > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@aam-ch.com
> > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com
> > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > >
> > >
> > > —
> > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com
> > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> >
> >
> >

> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > http://games.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Well, I am not a big believer in certification, but I do see some merit.
Something is better than nothing in some cases I guess. I have seen a
sufficient number of bad haircuts from contractors to say that maybe a
Microsoft sanctioned cert wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing. Then again,
it wouldn’t buy you all that much so… The one area I think it might help
is Joe Blow’s Hardware Design Emporium might have a better chance of getting
someone reasonable as all of Joe’s folks are hardware designers and thus
can’t even spell driver.


Bill McKenzie

“Gary G. Little” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> The measure here is competency … not the number of letters after your
> signature. Measuring competency is a yardstick that is difficult to find.
> How does a potential contractee determine if a potential contractor is
> blowing smoke? One has 20 years in the industry, millions of lines of code
> under his belt, personally knows Walter Oney, has had lunch with Jamey
> Hanrahan, but only has a degree in Phys Ed. The other has a doctorate from
> MIT, half the alphabet after his name, wrote his thesis on Framii, has
> heard of Walter, thought Jamie was a myth, and sacrifices goats to Max
> weekly. Who should the employer issue the contract, to write a driver for
a
> 100 terabit Red Widget?
>
> Maybe we all need signs like Bill Engvals “STUPID” signs.
> –
> Gary G. Little
> xxxxx@broadstor.com
> xxxxx@inland.net
>
> “Bill McKenzie” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> > You are assuming no one consults on Windows drivers aren’t you? How do
> you
> > judge the consultant?
> >
> > –
> > Bill McKenzie
> >
> >
> >
> > “Ntdev Reader” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > >
> > > Let’s not deviate too much. Patients do not relate to Doctors
> > > as Employers to Employees. Patients have no reasonable means
> > > to evaluate Doctors’ expertise. Some kind of public institution
> > > is required to do that for them. No so for Employers. Your point
> > > is thus not acceptable. Let’s not go outside of facts and history
> > > of our industry. When our company tries to hire a driver developer
> > > he is invited for interview by his would-be-peers. This certification
> > > process works very reliably. There are no mistakes made. Now, imagine
> > > a guy appears with a certificate issued by Microsoft. Would we hire
> > > him without our interview now? Stupid question, don’t you think?
> > > Ok, Ok, if an employer gets many resumes, half of them certified,
> > > they might put them to the head of the interview line. That’s all
> > > the cert would buy for them. But I don’t think it would be a smart
> > > move. Really good people are too busy to spend weeks preparing for
> > > a certification.
> > >
> > > — “Roddy, Mark” wrote:
> > > > Er no, doctors go to school for whatever, but in order to practice
in
> a
> > > > specialty they get ‘board certified’ by the appropriate professional
> > > > association, who may also decertify them. Before you propose a
> > > > counterfactual you really ought to find out if it is true.
> > > >
> > > > A simple google of:
> > > > medical certification process
> > > > would have prevented this mistake.
> > > >
> > > > For example: http://www.abns.org/certproc.htm
> > > >
> > > > I have no problem with software professionals getting certified in
> their
> > > > area of expertise, as long as the process is fair and reasonable.
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Asher Hoodin [mailto:xxxxx@aam-ch.com]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 1:04 PM
> > > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > > developer s
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > They dont get certified they go to college for 10 years.
> > > > > Big difference. Certification = waste.
> > > > >
> > > > > HAND,
> > > > > Asher
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Roddy, Mark
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:32 PM
> > > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > > developer s
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You feel the same way about certification of other
> > > > > professionals, such as, for example, doctors?
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Ntdev Reader [mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:29 PM
> > > > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > > > developers
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yeah, certification is really a VERY BAD idea. What it will
> > > > > > turn into is that bosses around will start requiring the
> > > > > > certification and driver developers will have to pay money to
> > > > > > the certifying authority maybe even including travelling
> > > > > > there, for who would certify you by e-mail or phone? And your
> > > > > > current boss will not pay for this, for he already knows your
> > > > > > abilities. You will have to pay yourself, to get a
> > > > > > certificate before you find another job. So, this will just
> > > > > > transfer money from your pocket to the certifier, and won’t
> > > > > > make you any better developer. And they still won’t hire
> > > > > > people without experience :slight_smile:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What the original poster’s boss is looking for is likely to
> > > > > > find pretexts to be able to lay off somebody if a need
> > > > > > arises. The only cure for this is to spend more time learning
> > > > > > and demonstrating to him that you can to a good job. The boss
> > > > > > needs reliable drivers in predictable time. If you can give
> > > > > > him this, he will love you. Otherwise no certification will
help.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > — Asher Hoodin wrote:
> > > > > > > OSR already has seminars. Other companies have WDM
> > > > > > Training. Bother
> > > > > > > to look at the OSR web sight. As for certification in
> > > > > > general…well
> > > > > > > MCSE failed miserably at making an inexperienced workforce
> > > > > > any good.
> > > > > > > Nobody I have ever met is an MCSD. Maybe your boss should
> > > > > > spring for
> > > > > > > some seminars. I am sure that some third party companies
> > > > > > have testing
> > > > > > > available. I will forward
> > > > > > > the names of the companies shortly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Asher
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Guys,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > These not being the best of times, my Boss wants me take
> > > > > > some sort
> > > > > > > > of tests to quantify my proficiency in Windows device driver
> > > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Does any one of you know of good certifying authorities in
> > > > > > > > driverland. If there are no one, does OSR plan to certify?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > Vinay.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > > > > xxxxx@jil.co.in
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@aam-ch.com
To
> > > > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com
To
> > > > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > > > > http://games.yahoo.com/
> > > > >
> > > > > —
> > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com
To
> > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > >
> > > > > —
> > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@aam-ch.com
> > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > —
> > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com
> > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com
> > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > >
> > >
> > >

> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > > http://games.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

I believe most of us who have been following the postings here for some
while, all agree that the recently awarded DDK MVP awards did ‘hit’ the
right people. Isn’t this also a kind of certification? (of course probably
only those on this list know…)

Robin Mitra

“Bill McKenzie” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> Well, I am not a big believer in certification, but I do see some merit.
> Something is better than nothing in some cases I guess. I have seen a
> sufficient number of bad haircuts from contractors to say that maybe a
> Microsoft sanctioned cert wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing. Then
again,
> it wouldn’t buy you all that much so… The one area I think it might
help
> is Joe Blow’s Hardware Design Emporium might have a better chance of
getting
> someone reasonable as all of Joe’s folks are hardware designers and thus
> can’t even spell driver.
>
> –
> Bill McKenzie
>
>
>
> “Gary G. Little” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> > The measure here is competency … not the number of letters after your
> > signature. Measuring competency is a yardstick that is difficult to
find.
> > How does a potential contractee determine if a potential contractor is
> > blowing smoke? One has 20 years in the industry, millions of lines of
code
> > under his belt, personally knows Walter Oney, has had lunch with Jamey
> > Hanrahan, but only has a degree in Phys Ed. The other has a doctorate
from
> > MIT, half the alphabet after his name, wrote his thesis on Framii, has
> > heard of Walter, thought Jamie was a myth, and sacrifices goats to Max
> > weekly. Who should the employer issue the contract, to write a driver
for
> a
> > 100 terabit Red Widget?
> >
> > Maybe we all need signs like Bill Engvals “STUPID” signs.
> > –
> > Gary G. Little
> > xxxxx@broadstor.com
> > xxxxx@inland.net
> >
> > “Bill McKenzie” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > >
> > > You are assuming no one consults on Windows drivers aren’t you? How
do
> > you
> > > judge the consultant?
> > >
> > > –
> > > Bill McKenzie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > “Ntdev Reader” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > >
> > > > Let’s not deviate too much. Patients do not relate to Doctors
> > > > as Employers to Employees. Patients have no reasonable means
> > > > to evaluate Doctors’ expertise. Some kind of public institution
> > > > is required to do that for them. No so for Employers. Your point
> > > > is thus not acceptable. Let’s not go outside of facts and history
> > > > of our industry. When our company tries to hire a driver developer
> > > > he is invited for interview by his would-be-peers. This
certification
> > > > process works very reliably. There are no mistakes made. Now,
imagine
> > > > a guy appears with a certificate issued by Microsoft. Would we hire
> > > > him without our interview now? Stupid question, don’t you think?
> > > > Ok, Ok, if an employer gets many resumes, half of them certified,
> > > > they might put them to the head of the interview line. That’s all
> > > > the cert would buy for them. But I don’t think it would be a smart
> > > > move. Really good people are too busy to spend weeks preparing for
> > > > a certification.
> > > >
> > > > — “Roddy, Mark” wrote:
> > > > > Er no, doctors go to school for whatever, but in order to practice
> in
> > a
> > > > > specialty they get ‘board certified’ by the appropriate
professional
> > > > > association, who may also decertify them. Before you propose a
> > > > > counterfactual you really ought to find out if it is true.
> > > > >
> > > > > A simple google of:
> > > > > medical certification process
> > > > > would have prevented this mistake.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example: http://www.abns.org/certproc.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > I have no problem with software professionals getting certified in
> > their
> > > > > area of expertise, as long as the process is fair and reasonable.
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Asher Hoodin [mailto:xxxxx@aam-ch.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 1:04 PM
> > > > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > > > developer s
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They dont get certified they go to college for 10 years.
> > > > > > Big difference. Certification = waste.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > HAND,
> > > > > > Asher
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > > > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Roddy, Mark
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:32 PM
> > > > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > > > developer s
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You feel the same way about certification of other
> > > > > > professionals, such as, for example, doctors?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Ntdev Reader [mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com]
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:29 PM
> > > > > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > > > > developers
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yeah, certification is really a VERY BAD idea. What it will
> > > > > > > turn into is that bosses around will start requiring the
> > > > > > > certification and driver developers will have to pay money to
> > > > > > > the certifying authority maybe even including travelling
> > > > > > > there, for who would certify you by e-mail or phone? And your
> > > > > > > current boss will not pay for this, for he already knows your
> > > > > > > abilities. You will have to pay yourself, to get a
> > > > > > > certificate before you find another job. So, this will just
> > > > > > > transfer money from your pocket to the certifier, and won’t
> > > > > > > make you any better developer. And they still won’t hire
> > > > > > > people without experience :slight_smile:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What the original poster’s boss is looking for is likely to
> > > > > > > find pretexts to be able to lay off somebody if a need
> > > > > > > arises. The only cure for this is to spend more time learning
> > > > > > > and demonstrating to him that you can to a good job. The boss
> > > > > > > needs reliable drivers in predictable time. If you can give
> > > > > > > him this, he will love you. Otherwise no certification will
> help.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > — Asher Hoodin wrote:
> > > > > > > > OSR already has seminars. Other companies have WDM
> > > > > > > Training. Bother
> > > > > > > > to look at the OSR web sight. As for certification in
> > > > > > > general…well
> > > > > > > > MCSE failed miserably at making an inexperienced workforce
> > > > > > > any good.
> > > > > > > > Nobody I have ever met is an MCSD. Maybe your boss should
> > > > > > > spring for
> > > > > > > > some seminars. I am sure that some third party companies
> > > > > > > have testing
> > > > > > > > available. I will forward
> > > > > > > > the names of the companies shortly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Asher
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Guys,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > These not being the best of times, my Boss wants me take
> > > > > > > some sort
> > > > > > > > > of tests to quantify my proficiency in Windows device
driver
> > > > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Does any one of you know of good certifying authorities in
> > > > > > > > > driverland. If there are no one, does OSR plan to certify?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > Vinay.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > > > > > xxxxx@jil.co.in
> > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@aam-ch.com
> To
> > > > > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com
> To
> > > > > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > > > > > http://games.yahoo.com/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > —
> > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com
> To
> > > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > >
> > > > > > —
> > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@aam-ch.com
> > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > —
> > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com
> > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > —
> > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com
> > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >

> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > > > http://games.yahoo.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Well, I don’t know. That means I am ‘certified’ and that is a really
dangerous proposition :slight_smile:

Actually, like I said certification probably won’t buy you much. I think
better communication/explanation of the driver model would get MS a whole
lot closer to where they want to be than certification. I don’t think they
are blind to this either.


Bill McKenzie

“Robin Mitra” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> I believe most of us who have been following the postings here for some
> while, all agree that the recently awarded DDK MVP awards did ‘hit’ the
> right people. Isn’t this also a kind of certification? (of course probably
> only those on this list know…)
>
> Robin Mitra
>
> “Bill McKenzie” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> > Well, I am not a big believer in certification, but I do see some merit.
> > Something is better than nothing in some cases I guess. I have seen a
> > sufficient number of bad haircuts from contractors to say that maybe a
> > Microsoft sanctioned cert wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing. Then
> again,
> > it wouldn’t buy you all that much so… The one area I think it might
> help
> > is Joe Blow’s Hardware Design Emporium might have a better chance of
> getting
> > someone reasonable as all of Joe’s folks are hardware designers and thus
> > can’t even spell driver.
> >
> > –
> > Bill McKenzie
> >
> >
> >
> > “Gary G. Little” wrote in message
> > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > >
> > > The measure here is competency … not the number of letters after
your
> > > signature. Measuring competency is a yardstick that is difficult to
> find.
> > > How does a potential contractee determine if a potential contractor is
> > > blowing smoke? One has 20 years in the industry, millions of lines of
> code
> > > under his belt, personally knows Walter Oney, has had lunch with Jamey
> > > Hanrahan, but only has a degree in Phys Ed. The other has a doctorate
> from
> > > MIT, half the alphabet after his name, wrote his thesis on Framii,
has
> > > heard of Walter, thought Jamie was a myth, and sacrifices goats to Max
> > > weekly. Who should the employer issue the contract, to write a driver
> for
> > a
> > > 100 terabit Red Widget?
> > >
> > > Maybe we all need signs like Bill Engvals “STUPID” signs.
> > > –
> > > Gary G. Little
> > > xxxxx@broadstor.com
> > > xxxxx@inland.net
> > >
> > > “Bill McKenzie” wrote in message
> > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > >
> > > > You are assuming no one consults on Windows drivers aren’t you? How
> do
> > > you
> > > > judge the consultant?
> > > >
> > > > –
> > > > Bill McKenzie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > “Ntdev Reader” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > >
> > > > > Let’s not deviate too much. Patients do not relate to Doctors
> > > > > as Employers to Employees. Patients have no reasonable means
> > > > > to evaluate Doctors’ expertise. Some kind of public institution
> > > > > is required to do that for them. No so for Employers. Your point
> > > > > is thus not acceptable. Let’s not go outside of facts and history
> > > > > of our industry. When our company tries to hire a driver developer
> > > > > he is invited for interview by his would-be-peers. This
> certification
> > > > > process works very reliably. There are no mistakes made. Now,
> imagine
> > > > > a guy appears with a certificate issued by Microsoft. Would we
hire
> > > > > him without our interview now? Stupid question, don’t you think?
> > > > > Ok, Ok, if an employer gets many resumes, half of them certified,
> > > > > they might put them to the head of the interview line. That’s all
> > > > > the cert would buy for them. But I don’t think it would be a smart
> > > > > move. Really good people are too busy to spend weeks preparing for
> > > > > a certification.
> > > > >
> > > > > — “Roddy, Mark” wrote:
> > > > > > Er no, doctors go to school for whatever, but in order to
practice
> > in
> > > a
> > > > > > specialty they get ‘board certified’ by the appropriate
> professional
> > > > > > association, who may also decertify them. Before you propose a
> > > > > > counterfactual you really ought to find out if it is true.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A simple google of:
> > > > > > medical certification process
> > > > > > would have prevented this mistake.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For example: http://www.abns.org/certproc.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have no problem with software professionals getting certified
in
> > > their
> > > > > > area of expertise, as long as the process is fair and
reasonable.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Asher Hoodin [mailto:xxxxx@aam-ch.com]
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 1:04 PM
> > > > > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > > > > developer s
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They dont get certified they go to college for 10 years.
> > > > > > > Big difference. Certification = waste.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > HAND,
> > > > > > > Asher
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > > > > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Roddy,
Mark
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:32 PM
> > > > > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > > > > developer s
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You feel the same way about certification of other
> > > > > > > professionals, such as, for example, doctors?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Ntdev Reader [mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com]
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:29 PM
> > > > > > > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > > > > > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Certification for windows device driver
> > > > > > > > developers
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yeah, certification is really a VERY BAD idea. What it will
> > > > > > > > turn into is that bosses around will start requiring the
> > > > > > > > certification and driver developers will have to pay money
to
> > > > > > > > the certifying authority maybe even including travelling
> > > > > > > > there, for who would certify you by e-mail or phone? And
your
> > > > > > > > current boss will not pay for this, for he already knows
your
> > > > > > > > abilities. You will have to pay yourself, to get a
> > > > > > > > certificate before you find another job. So, this will just
> > > > > > > > transfer money from your pocket to the certifier, and won’t
> > > > > > > > make you any better developer. And they still won’t hire
> > > > > > > > people without experience :slight_smile:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What the original poster’s boss is looking for is likely to
> > > > > > > > find pretexts to be able to lay off somebody if a need
> > > > > > > > arises. The only cure for this is to spend more time
learning
> > > > > > > > and demonstrating to him that you can to a good job. The
boss
> > > > > > > > needs reliable drivers in predictable time. If you can give
> > > > > > > > him this, he will love you. Otherwise no certification will
> > help.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > — Asher Hoodin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > OSR already has seminars. Other companies have WDM
> > > > > > > > Training. Bother
> > > > > > > > > to look at the OSR web sight. As for certification in
> > > > > > > > general…well
> > > > > > > > > MCSE failed miserably at making an inexperienced workforce
> > > > > > > > any good.
> > > > > > > > > Nobody I have ever met is an MCSD. Maybe your boss should
> > > > > > > > spring for
> > > > > > > > > some seminars. I am sure that some third party companies
> > > > > > > > have testing
> > > > > > > > > available. I will forward
> > > > > > > > > the names of the companies shortly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Asher
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > These not being the best of times, my Boss wants me take
> > > > > > > > some sort
> > > > > > > > > > of tests to quantify my proficiency in Windows device
> driver
> > > > > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Does any one of you know of good certifying authorities
in
> > > > > > > > > > driverland. If there are no one, does OSR plan to
certify?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Vinay.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > > > > > > xxxxx@jil.co.in
> > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
xxxxx@aam-ch.com
> > To
> > > > > > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
xxxxx@yahoo.com
> > To
> > > > > > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > > > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > > > > > > http://games.yahoo.com/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
xxxxx@stratus.com
> > To
> > > > > > > unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@aam-ch.com
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
xxxxx@stratus.com
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > —
> > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com
> > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >

> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > > > > http://games.yahoo.com/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>