hi all
can someone give me a rough estimate
as to the price beeing charged out there
for a usb device
which is an hid
like a force feedback joystick
my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
at 7,000$
does this sound fair?
to both sides?
assaf
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Double the time and the price.
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Assaf Wodeslavsky
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 6:36 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
hi all
can someone give me a rough estimate
as to the price beeing charged out there
for a usb device
which is an hid
like a force feedback joystick
my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
at 7,000$
does this sound fair?
to both sides?
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I’ve never done an HID device, but there is no such thing as a two-week job
it might take a week or two to code it, but testing and debugging and
dealing with installation can take just as long.
Dennis
Dennis Merrill
Embedded Systems Engineer
Thermo Nicolet Corporation
-----Original Message-----
From: Assaf Wodeslavsky [mailto:xxxxx@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 8:36 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
hi all
can someone give me a rough estimate
as to the price beeing charged out there
for a usb device
which is an hid
like a force feedback joystick
my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
at 7,000$
does this sound fair?
to both sides?
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>
I’ve never done an HID device, but there is no such thing as a two-week
job - it might take a week or two to code it, but testing and debugging
and dealing with installation can take just as long.
I totally agree.
I don’t think ANY driver project I’ve done was less that a couple months.
Some ran as long as a year (with a few people working on it). Or course I
know almost nothing about HID devices, aren’t they supposed to be generic,
with no driver needed? To test that the OS generic driver talks to a device
correctly might happen in two weeks, for somebody who specialized in HID
devices.
I was amazed a few months ago when some headhunter was looking for someone
to write a high performance W2K file system for a custom SAN protocol, and
said they though it would take one person 6 months. Unless something has
changed dramatically in file system development, I though that was pretty
optimistic (sounded more like a couple man years to me, at least). I try
REALLY hard to avoid projects that aren’t realistic. Working miracles is
fun, but can turn really ugly easily.
Based on the quality of drivers for many devices I buy, I think people need
to multiply their time/cost estimates by about 4. In the last week, I’ve
purchased a new inkjet printer and a digital camera, both with USB
interfaces, and within 20 minutes of use, BOTH of them had gotten “stuck”
and reporting communication problems (these were on totally different, very
stable W2K systems).
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>“Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>hi all
>
>can someone give me a rough estimate
>
>my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
>at 7,000$
>
A couple of points:
1) In my opinion, there is no useful driver that can be written in two
weeks… including testing. Jamey said “double” the time; Jan said “4
times” the time. I’d say Jan’s still at the low end of the scale, time
wise. Consider you have to develop a requirements document, write the code,
re-write the code, have (at the least) a very short, limited, private and
intensive testing period, fix the bugs, make the inf work, package it. At
least two months.
Now, price? This varies extremely widely, from country to country, and even
within the States. But $3500 for two weeks work, with the result being a
finished product? You couldn’t pay that in the States and get it done by
somebody who writes code for a living. Heck, I bet you couldn’t even hire
Mark Roddy for that kind of money!!
Peter
OSR
(who is thankful that OSR does not do HID device drivers… ever)
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What about all these wonderful tool kits out there designed to make driver
writing like turning a crank?
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of PeterGV
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:46 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
“Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>hi all
>
>can someone give me a rough estimate
>
>my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
>at 7,000$
>
A couple of points:
1) In my opinion, there is no useful driver that can be written in two
weeks… including testing. Jamey said “double” the time; Jan said “4
times” the time. I’d say Jan’s still at the low end of the scale, time
wise. Consider you have to develop a requirements document, write the code,
re-write the code, have (at the least) a very short, limited, private and
intensive testing period, fix the bugs, make the inf work, package it. At
least two months.
Now, price? This varies extremely widely, from country to country, and even
within the States. But $3500 for two weeks work, with the result being a
finished product? You couldn’t pay that in the States and get it done by
somebody who writes code for a living. Heck, I bet you couldn’t even hire
Mark Roddy for that kind of money!!
Peter
OSR
(who is thankful that OSR does not do HID device drivers… ever)
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Ow, I’ve been flamed!
Besides, wasn’t it 3500/wk for two weeks?
My two cents (which we now know represents less than one second of my very
cheap time,) was that:
a) you are likely to end up in a 12-week project for which the customer is
going to pay for two weeks and be pissed off that the project is late, that
is known as a lose-lose situation;
b) you shouldn’t worry too much about what is fair for your client, your
client will worry about that, you should worry a lot about what is fair for
you;
c) if you are starving none of the above matters.
-----Original Message-----
From: PeterGV [mailto:xxxxx@osr.com]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 3:46 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
“Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>hi all
>
>can someone give me a rough estimate
>
>my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
>at 7,000$
>
A couple of points:
1) In my opinion, there is no useful driver that can be written in two
weeks… including testing. Jamey said “double” the time; Jan said “4
times” the time. I’d say Jan’s still at the low end of the scale, time
wise. Consider you have to develop a requirements document, write the code,
re-write the code, have (at the least) a very short, limited, private and
intensive testing period, fix the bugs, make the inf work, package it. At
least two months.
Now, price? This varies extremely widely, from country to country, and even
within the States. But $3500 for two weeks work, with the result being a
finished product? You couldn’t pay that in the States and get it done by
somebody who writes code for a living. Heck, I bet you couldn’t even hire
Mark Roddy for that kind of money!!
Peter
OSR
(who is thankful that OSR does not do HID device drivers… ever)
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why doesn’t osr do hid devices?
assaf
----- Original Message -----
From: “PeterGV”
Newsgroups: ntdev
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 10:46 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
> >“Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >hi all
> >
> >can someone give me a rough estimate
> >
> >my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
> >at 7,000$
> >
>
> A couple of points:
> 1) In my opinion, there is no useful driver that can be written in two
> weeks… including testing. Jamey said “double” the time; Jan said “4
> times” the time. I’d say Jan’s still at the low end of the scale, time
> wise. Consider you have to develop a requirements document, write the
code,
> re-write the code, have (at the least) a very short, limited, private and
> intensive testing period, fix the bugs, make the inf work, package it. At
> least two months.
>
> Now, price? This varies extremely widely, from country to country, and
even
> within the States. But $3500 for two weeks work, with the result being a
> finished product? You couldn’t pay that in the States and get it done by
> somebody who writes code for a living. Heck, I bet you couldn’t even hire
> Mark Roddy for that kind of money!!
>
> Peter
> OSR
> (who is thankful that OSR does not do HID device drivers… ever)
>
>
>
>
>
> —
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my client has been using winDriver
or something like that
but now they need something more
assaf
----- Original Message -----
From: “Gregory G. Dyess”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:00 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
> What about all these wonderful tool kits out there designed to make driver
> writing like turning a crank?
>
> Greg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of PeterGV
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:46 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
>
>
> >“Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >hi all
> >
> >can someone give me a rough estimate
> >
> >my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
> >at 7,000$
> >
>
> A couple of points:
> 1) In my opinion, there is no useful driver that can be written in two
> weeks… including testing. Jamey said “double” the time; Jan said “4
> times” the time. I’d say Jan’s still at the low end of the scale, time
> wise. Consider you have to develop a requirements document, write the
code,
> re-write the code, have (at the least) a very short, limited, private and
> intensive testing period, fix the bugs, make the inf work, package it. At
> least two months.
>
> Now, price? This varies extremely widely, from country to country, and
even
> within the States. But $3500 for two weeks work, with the result being a
> finished product? You couldn’t pay that in the States and get it done by
> somebody who writes code for a living. Heck, I bet you couldn’t even hire
> Mark Roddy for that kind of money!!
>
> Peter
> OSR
> (who is thankful that OSR does not do HID device drivers… ever)
>
>
>
>
>
> —
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>
>
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3500/wk. You been swinging that purse on the corner long 
Sorry, I could not resist.
Jamey
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Roddy, Mark
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 12:53 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
Ow, I’ve been flamed!
Besides, wasn’t it 3500/wk for two weeks?
My two cents (which we now know represents less than one second of my
very cheap time,) was that:
a) you are likely to end up in a 12-week project for which the customer
is going to pay for two weeks and be pissed off that the project is
late, that is known as a lose-lose situation;
b) you shouldn’t worry too much about what is fair for your client, your
client will worry about that, you should worry a lot about what is fair
for you;
c) if you are starving none of the above matters.
-----Original Message-----
From: PeterGV [mailto:xxxxx@osr.com]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 3:46 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
“Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>hi all
>
>can someone give me a rough estimate
>
>my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
>at 7,000$
>
A couple of points:
1) In my opinion, there is no useful driver that can be written in two
weeks… including testing. Jamey said “double” the time; Jan said “4
times” the time. I’d say Jan’s still at the low end of the scale, time
wise. Consider you have to develop a requirements document, write the
code, re-write the code, have (at the least) a very short, limited,
private and intensive testing period, fix the bugs, make the inf work,
package it. At least two months.
Now, price? This varies extremely widely, from country to country, and
even within the States. But $3500 for two weeks work, with the result
being a finished product? You couldn’t pay that in the States and get
it done by somebody who writes code for a living. Heck, I bet you
couldn’t even hire Mark Roddy for that kind of money!!
Peter
OSR
(who is thankful that OSR does not do HID device drivers… ever)
—
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3500$ per week is too much or too little
im not getting what you are saying
by the way, im in israel
prices here are usually less than usa
assaf
----- Original Message -----
From: “Jamey Kirby”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:39 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
> 3500/wk. You been swinging that purse on the corner long
>
> Sorry, I could not resist.
>
> Jamey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Roddy, Mark
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 12:53 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
>
>
> Ow, I’ve been flamed!
>
> Besides, wasn’t it 3500/wk for two weeks?
>
> My two cents (which we now know represents less than one second of my
> very cheap time,) was that:
> a) you are likely to end up in a 12-week project for which the customer
> is going to pay for two weeks and be pissed off that the project is
> late, that is known as a lose-lose situation;
>
> b) you shouldn’t worry too much about what is fair for your client, your
> client will worry about that, you should worry a lot about what is fair
> for you;
>
> c) if you are starving none of the above matters.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PeterGV [mailto:xxxxx@osr.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 3:46 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
>
>
> >“Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >hi all
> >
> >can someone give me a rough estimate
> >
> >my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
> >at 7,000$
> >
>
> A couple of points:
> 1) In my opinion, there is no useful driver that can be written in two
> weeks… including testing. Jamey said “double” the time; Jan said “4
> times” the time. I’d say Jan’s still at the low end of the scale, time
> wise. Consider you have to develop a requirements document, write the
> code, re-write the code, have (at the least) a very short, limited,
> private and intensive testing period, fix the bugs, make the inf work,
> package it. At least two months.
>
> Now, price? This varies extremely widely, from country to country, and
> even within the States. But $3500 for two weeks work, with the result
> being a finished product? You couldn’t pay that in the States and get
> it done by somebody who writes code for a living. Heck, I bet you
> couldn’t even hire Mark Roddy for that kind of money!!
>
> Peter
> OSR
> (who is thankful that OSR does not do HID device drivers… ever)
>
>
>
>
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com To
> unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntdev-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
>
> —
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>
>
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“Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> 3500$ per week is too much or too little
> im not getting what you are saying
>
US$3500/week for a two week device driver project, delivering a complete
project, is considered very inexpensive here in the States.
I’m not sayin’ there are no driver developers you could contract here for
$88/hour, but I suspect you’d have to guarantee them more than two week’s
work (like, six months or a year) to get them to work at that rate.
We (OSR) don’t do HID drivers simply because we are not expert in that
field.
PeterGV
OSR
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There are no two week projects; trust me
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Peter Viscarola
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:27 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
“Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> 3500$ per week is too much or too little
> im not getting what you are saying
>
US$3500/week for a two week device driver project, delivering a complete
project, is considered very inexpensive here in the States.
I’m not sayin’ there are no driver developers you could contract here
for $88/hour, but I suspect you’d have to guarantee them more than two
week’s work (like, six months or a year) to get them to work at that
rate.
We (OSR) don’t do HID drivers simply because we are not expert in that
field.
PeterGV
OSR
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The labor cost isn’t really the issue. You should charge whatever the
rate is for this business in your part of the world. The issue as far as
I am concerned is that if you bid a project at two weeks, and your
customer expects to pay no more than two weeks of whatever your unit
labor cost is, and the project takes twelve weeks, then you have a
pissed off client and/or a sadly underpaid consultant, or typically
both. The issue is the two week estimate, the unit labor cost is
irrelevant.
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Assaf
Wodeslavsky
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 5:08 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] need a price estimate for usb hid device driver3500$ per week is too much or too little
im not getting what you are saying
by the way, im in israel
prices here are usually less than usaassaf
----- Original Message -----
From: “Jamey Kirby”
> To: “NT Developers Interest List”
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:39 PM
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
>
>
> > 3500/wk. You been swinging that purse on the corner long
> >
> > Sorry, I could not resist.
> >
> > Jamey
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Roddy, Mark
> > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 12:53 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
> >
> >
> > Ow, I’ve been flamed!
> >
> > Besides, wasn’t it 3500/wk for two weeks?
> >
> > My two cents (which we now know represents less than one
> second of my
> > very cheap time,) was that:
> > a) you are likely to end up in a 12-week project for which the
> > customer is going to pay for two weeks and be pissed off that the
> > project is late, that is known as a lose-lose situation;
> >
> > b) you shouldn’t worry too much about what is fair for your client,
> > your client will worry about that, you should worry a lot
> about what
> > is fair for you;
> >
> > c) if you are starving none of the above matters.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: PeterGV [mailto:xxxxx@osr.com]
> > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 3:46 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
> >
> >
> > >“Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
> > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > >hi all
> > >
> > >can someone give me a rough estimate
> > >
> > >my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
> > >at 7,000$
> > >
> >
> > A couple of points:
> > 1) In my opinion, there is no useful driver that can be
> written in two
> > weeks… including testing. Jamey said “double” the time;
> Jan said “4
> > times” the time. I’d say Jan’s still at the low end of the scale,
> > time wise. Consider you have to develop a requirements document,
> > write the code, re-write the code, have (at the least) a
> very short,
> > limited, private and intensive testing period, fix the
> bugs, make the
> > inf work, package it. At least two months.
> >
> > Now, price? This varies extremely widely, from country to country,
> > and even within the States. But $3500 for two weeks work, with the
> > result being a finished product? You couldn’t pay that in
> the States
> > and get it done by somebody who writes code for a living.
> Heck, I bet
> > you couldn’t even hire Mark Roddy for that kind of money!!
> >
> > Peter
> > OSR
> > (who is thankful that OSR does not do HID device drivers… ever)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com To
> > unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntdev-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
> >
> > —
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> >
> >
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> >
>
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>
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I cannot imagine any driver being designed, written, tested, with a working
inf and/or installation application in only 2 weeks. Two months would be a
stretch for the most simple of drivers.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Assaf Wodeslavsky
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 6:36 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
hi all
can someone give me a rough estimate
as to the price beeing charged out there
for a usb device
which is an hid
like a force feedback joystick
my client estimates it to be a 2 week job
at 7,000$
does this sound fair?
to both sides?
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Geeze am I on the wrong continent. The last filter driver I wrote took 2
months and I charged $12,000 Aussie dollars, which is about $6,000 US.
The client tells me that it’s still running bug-free too…
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Peter Viscarola
Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2001 9:27 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
“Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> 3500$ per week is too much or too little
> im not getting what you are saying
>
US$3500/week for a two week device driver project, delivering a complete
project, is considered very inexpensive here in the States.
I’m not sayin’ there are no driver developers you could contract here
for
$88/hour, but I suspect you’d have to guarantee them more than two
week’s
work (like, six months or a year) to get them to work at that rate.
We (OSR) don’t do HID drivers simply because we are not expert in that
field.
PeterGV
OSR
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that’s less then a cleaning lady gets paid here
assaf
----- Original Message -----
From: “Adrian Sheedy”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 5:19 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
> Geeze am I on the wrong continent. The last filter driver I wrote took 2
> months and I charged $12,000 Aussie dollars, which is about $6,000 US.
> The client tells me that it’s still running bug-free too…
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Peter Viscarola
> Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2001 9:27 AM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: need a price estimate for usb hid device driver
>
> “Assaf Wodeslavsky” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> > 3500$ per week is too much or too little
> > im not getting what you are saying
> >
>
> US$3500/week for a two week device driver project, delivering a complete
> project, is considered very inexpensive here in the States.
>
> I’m not sayin’ there are no driver developers you could contract here
> for
> $88/hour, but I suspect you’d have to guarantee them more than two
> week’s
> work (like, six months or a year) to get them to work at that rate.
>
> We (OSR) don’t do HID drivers simply because we are not expert in that
> field.
>
> PeterGV
> OSR
>
>
>
>
>
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>that’s less then a cleaning lady gets paid here
Of course money is a slippery measurement. I’m in northern California,
where a reasonably nice house costs $750,000 (US). $4000(US)/month hardly
even pays a mortgage here. I’d die off if local companies didn’t like
having someone local do their drivers. To offset this though, homes
appreciate an average of about 7%/year compounded, long term, here in
northern California. My belief is if you can sustain the cash outflow, when
your old you have invested wisely (of course you may also be really burned
out from sustaining the hefty cash outflow all those years). There is also
the little detail of coming up with the $75,000 down payment for your first
house too.
I suppose the question is, where is the best place to be a driver developer
when you compare expenses to income? Two ways to analyze this are from the
long term investment viewpoint, and the short term cash flow viewpoint.
Another question is, how sensitive to price is the driver development
market? Will the low project bid always win?
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