MORE Details About The DDC -- My initial reactions

NTDEV
1

More complete session descriptions, and even the names of presenters (I think that’s a first for a Microsoft conference), have been posted:

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/491F34B0-E3D0-D1B1-0667-D4065525389C/sessions.aspx

Kudos to Microsoft for making the names of the presenters known in advance.

For a conference that was going to be restricted to “advanced” driver developers, there seems – at least to me – to be a lot of “introductory” material at the 200 level.

There are some excellent devs (including test devs) presenting, including many names familiar to all of us who hang-out here such as Doron Holan, Bob Kjelgaard, Peter Wieland, Randy Aull, Eliyas Yakub, and Davis Walker. Don’t think these are the “only good devs” presenting… there are also a number of excellent devs that we don’t see regularly on this list.

Aside from the amount of introductory material (which I expected to be zero), perhaps the biggest surprise to me are the testing-related sessions… some of which actually look like they might not suck. For example, I would personally watch just about any talk by Daniel Mihai (who brings us driver verifier) or James Moe, because these guys are both smart, no nonsense type engineers who are down-to-earth practical.

It’s not exactly the DDC of my dreams – I asked for, and apparently will not be granted, much more sweeping, detailed, architectural/internals type talks. I was seriously hoping somebody would break from the mold and schedule a talk on the Singularity driver model (just to amuse folks in the community and get us all thinking differently). But, hey… I can’t have everything, right?

What do YOU think?

Peter
OSR

2

Well the sessions look interesting, but I noticed a number of sessions that
seem similar to earlier WinHEC sessions (things like WinDBG extensions and
Coinstallers) of course the WinHEC sessions had a lower level number when
they were presented years ago, so we can hope for more depth but one
wonders.

It did annoy me greatly that session data is all set up to use calendar
programs and this makes it something beyond a royal pain in the ass for
those of us who do not use a calendar (the lack of new is outlook and the
security problems in Google calendar make me stay away). I am assuming
sessions do not cross a break, but some info like 11AM to Noon would have
been a lot handier than what we got.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> More complete session descriptions, and even the names of presenters (I
> think that’s a first for a Microsoft conference), have been posted:
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/491F34B0-E3D0-D1B1-0667-D4065525389C/sessions.aspx
>
> Kudos to Microsoft for making the names of the presenters known in
> advance.
>
> For a conference that was going to be restricted to “advanced” driver
> developers, there seems – at least to me – to be a lot of “introductory”
> material at the 200 level.
>
> There are some excellent devs (including test devs) presenting, including
> many names familiar to all of us who hang-out here such as Doron Holan,
> Bob Kjelgaard, Peter Wieland, Randy Aull, Eliyas Yakub, and Davis Walker.
> Don’t think these are the “only good devs” presenting… there are also a
> number of excellent devs that we don’t see regularly on this list.
>
> Aside from the amount of introductory material (which I expected to be
> zero), perhaps the biggest surprise to me are the testing-related
> sessions… some of which actually look like they might not suck. For
> example, I would personally watch just about any talk by Daniel Mihai (who
> brings us driver verifier) or James Moe, because these guys are both
> smart, no nonsense type engineers who are down-to-earth practical.
>
> It’s not exactly the DDC of my dreams – I asked for, and apparently will
> not be granted, much more sweeping, detailed, architectural/internals type
> talks. I was seriously hoping somebody would break from the mold and
> schedule a talk on the Singularity driver model (just to amuse folks in
> the community and get us all thinking differently). But, hey… I can’t
> have everything, right?
>
> What do YOU think?
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
>

3

Having spent a little time and build up a schedule, I hope that Microsoft is
still tuning the times for sessions. Take the example of 4PM Monday, where
you have:

Getting a Logo for your Windows Driver Foundation Driver -
DDE-T683
Shared Secrets about Windows Driver Foundation: Part 2 -
DDE-T689
Using KMDF in Miniport Drivers - DDE-T685
Using Static Driver Verifier to Analyze KMDF Drivers - DDE-C694

While the first two are being held a second time, I guest people who want to
use KMDF in a mini-port are assumed not to be interested in SDV or vice
versa. I see a lot of this in the schedule where multiple talks for the
same audience are scheduled at the same time. Of course there are also at
least two slots where nothing of interest for me at least seem to be
scheduled.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

4

Don Burn wrote:

Having spent a little time and build up a schedule, I hope that Microsoft is
still tuning the times for sessions. Take the example of 4PM Monday, where
you have:

Getting a Logo for your Windows Driver Foundation Driver -
DDE-T683
Shared Secrets about Windows Driver Foundation: Part 2 -
DDE-T689
Using KMDF in Miniport Drivers - DDE-T685
Using Static Driver Verifier to Analyze KMDF Drivers - DDE-C694

While the first two are being held a second time, I guest people who want to
use KMDF in a mini-port are assumed not to be interested in SDV or vice
versa. I see a lot of this in the schedule where multiple talks for the
same audience are scheduled at the same time. Of course there are also at
least two slots where nothing of interest for me at least seem to be
scheduled.

Yes, but in all fairness, what you are describing is an unsolvable
problem. I’ve been involved in scheduling educational sessions for
square dance conventions. You can satisfy a certain percentage of the
audience, but you can’t provide an optimal experience for all, or even most.

–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

5

Tim,

I agree it is unsolvable, but scheduling 4 sessions on KMDF at the
same time, seems a little extreme, especially when a few hours earlier they
have a slot with either PnP (heavily biased to USB) or SDIO (I don’t know if
the network or printer guys have something at the same time). In
particular the feedback sessions are now down to 2 hours, with multiple
things in conflict, I probably will not go to the feedback at this rate, and
it is obvious they don’t want feedback.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

“Tim Roberts” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Don Burn wrote:
>> Having spent a little time and build up a schedule, I hope that Microsoft
>> is
>> still tuning the times for sessions. Take the example of 4PM Monday,
>> where
>> you have:
>>
>> Getting a Logo for your Windows Driver Foundation Driver -
>> DDE-T683
>> Shared Secrets about Windows Driver Foundation: Part 2 -
>> DDE-T689
>> Using KMDF in Miniport Drivers - DDE-T685
>> Using Static Driver Verifier to Analyze KMDF Drivers -
>> DDE-C694
>>
>> While the first two are being held a second time, I guest people who want
>> to
>> use KMDF in a mini-port are assumed not to be interested in SDV or vice
>> versa. I see a lot of this in the schedule where multiple talks for the
>> same audience are scheduled at the same time. Of course there are also
>> at
>> least two slots where nothing of interest for me at least seem to be
>> scheduled.
>>
>
> Yes, but in all fairness, what you are describing is an unsolvable
> problem. I’ve been involved in scheduling educational sessions for
> square dance conventions. You can satisfy a certain percentage of the
> audience, but you can’t provide an optimal experience for all, or even
> most.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>

6

Yes don. It is quite obvious we do not want feedback ;). Come on, give the schedulers a break. There is a lot of content that needs to be wedged into 3 days and will conflict. The wdf and tools teams are aware of the overlap and b/c there are repeat sessions, it was an acceptable solution. Seriously, the folks who are running the conference are not tools. If they did not want feedback, there would have been no feedback sessions at all :stuck_out_tongue:

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:16 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] MORE Details About The DDC – My initial reactions

Tim,

I agree it is unsolvable, but scheduling 4 sessions on KMDF at the
same time, seems a little extreme, especially when a few hours earlier they
have a slot with either PnP (heavily biased to USB) or SDIO (I don’t know if
the network or printer guys have something at the same time). In
particular the feedback sessions are now down to 2 hours, with multiple
things in conflict, I probably will not go to the feedback at this rate, and
it is obvious they don’t want feedback.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

“Tim Roberts” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Don Burn wrote:
>> Having spent a little time and build up a schedule, I hope that Microsoft
>> is
>> still tuning the times for sessions. Take the example of 4PM Monday,
>> where
>> you have:
>>
>> Getting a Logo for your Windows Driver Foundation Driver -
>> DDE-T683
>> Shared Secrets about Windows Driver Foundation: Part 2 -
>> DDE-T689
>> Using KMDF in Miniport Drivers - DDE-T685
>> Using Static Driver Verifier to Analyze KMDF Drivers -
>> DDE-C694
>>
>> While the first two are being held a second time, I guest people who want
>> to
>> use KMDF in a mini-port are assumed not to be interested in SDV or vice
>> versa. I see a lot of this in the schedule where multiple talks for the
>> same audience are scheduled at the same time. Of course there are also
>> at
>> least two slots where nothing of interest for me at least seem to be
>> scheduled.
>>
>
> Yes, but in all fairness, what you are describing is an unsolvable
> problem. I’ve been involved in scheduling educational sessions for
> square dance conventions. You can satisfy a certain percentage of the
> audience, but you can’t provide an optimal experience for all, or even
> most.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>

—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

7

Doron,

I looked at the duplication, but of course what conflicted with the dup
but another feedback session on a specific topic! I know this stuff is
hard, but IMHO there are too many conflicts in some areas. Can the party
and move the feedback to Monday night, or round robin the Ask the Experts
with feedback sessions.

Right now the feedback sessions do not look of any value. Being placed
in the middle of the day, with 1 hour for the total time, they remind me of
last years WinHEC’s feedbacks. There they literally had a session where a
do you want question was asked, the majority (at by my and others read) said
no, and the moderator thanked us for the support as if we had answered yes,
AFAIK the internal effort for what was asked is still going on.

Most of us go to the conferences for information and to give feedback.
I see plenty of good information being presented, but it looks like I will
have to pick and choose a lot between sessions of interest. I don’t see a
lot of opportunity for feedback, and with all the problems in the WDK that
is unfortunate.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

“Doron Holan” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
Yes don. It is quite obvious we do not want feedback ;). Come on, give the
schedulers a break. There is a lot of content that needs to be wedged into
3 days and will conflict. The wdf and tools teams are aware of the overlap
and b/c there are repeat sessions, it was an acceptable solution.
Seriously, the folks who are running the conference are not tools. If they
did not want feedback, there would have been no feedback sessions at all :stuck_out_tongue:

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:16 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] MORE Details About The DDC – My initial reactions

Tim,

I agree it is unsolvable, but scheduling 4 sessions on KMDF at the
same time, seems a little extreme, especially when a few hours earlier they
have a slot with either PnP (heavily biased to USB) or SDIO (I don’t know if
the network or printer guys have something at the same time). In
particular the feedback sessions are now down to 2 hours, with multiple
things in conflict, I probably will not go to the feedback at this rate, and
it is obvious they don’t want feedback.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

“Tim Roberts” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Don Burn wrote:
>> Having spent a little time and build up a schedule, I hope that Microsoft
>> is
>> still tuning the times for sessions. Take the example of 4PM Monday,
>> where
>> you have:
>>
>> Getting a Logo for your Windows Driver Foundation Driver -
>> DDE-T683
>> Shared Secrets about Windows Driver Foundation: Part 2 -
>> DDE-T689
>> Using KMDF in Miniport Drivers - DDE-T685
>> Using Static Driver Verifier to Analyze KMDF Drivers -
>> DDE-C694
>>
>> While the first two are being held a second time, I guest people who want
>> to
>> use KMDF in a mini-port are assumed not to be interested in SDV or vice
>> versa. I see a lot of this in the schedule where multiple talks for the
>> same audience are scheduled at the same time. Of course there are also
>> at
>> least two slots where nothing of interest for me at least seem to be
>> scheduled.
>>
>
> Yes, but in all fairness, what you are describing is an unsolvable
> problem. I’ve been involved in scheduling educational sessions for
> square dance conventions. You can satisfy a certain percentage of the
> audience, but you can’t provide an optimal experience for all, or even
> most.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>

—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

8

I am sure there will be a lot of 1:1 time that you will be able to provide feedback outside of the organized feedback sessions. I am sure if we change the schedule to your requirements, we will mess up someone else’s requirements.

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:04 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Re:MORE Details About The DDC – My initial reactions

Doron,

I looked at the duplication, but of course what conflicted with the dup
but another feedback session on a specific topic! I know this stuff is
hard, but IMHO there are too many conflicts in some areas. Can the party
and move the feedback to Monday night, or round robin the Ask the Experts
with feedback sessions.

Right now the feedback sessions do not look of any value. Being placed
in the middle of the day, with 1 hour for the total time, they remind me of
last years WinHEC’s feedbacks. There they literally had a session where a
do you want question was asked, the majority (at by my and others read) said
no, and the moderator thanked us for the support as if we had answered yes,
AFAIK the internal effort for what was asked is still going on.

Most of us go to the conferences for information and to give feedback.
I see plenty of good information being presented, but it looks like I will
have to pick and choose a lot between sessions of interest. I don’t see a
lot of opportunity for feedback, and with all the problems in the WDK that
is unfortunate.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

“Doron Holan” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
Yes don. It is quite obvious we do not want feedback ;). Come on, give the
schedulers a break. There is a lot of content that needs to be wedged into
3 days and will conflict. The wdf and tools teams are aware of the overlap
and b/c there are repeat sessions, it was an acceptable solution.
Seriously, the folks who are running the conference are not tools. If they
did not want feedback, there would have been no feedback sessions at all :stuck_out_tongue:

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:16 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] MORE Details About The DDC – My initial reactions

Tim,

I agree it is unsolvable, but scheduling 4 sessions on KMDF at the
same time, seems a little extreme, especially when a few hours earlier they
have a slot with either PnP (heavily biased to USB) or SDIO (I don’t know if
the network or printer guys have something at the same time). In
particular the feedback sessions are now down to 2 hours, with multiple
things in conflict, I probably will not go to the feedback at this rate, and
it is obvious they don’t want feedback.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

“Tim Roberts” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Don Burn wrote:
>> Having spent a little time and build up a schedule, I hope that Microsoft
>> is
>> still tuning the times for sessions. Take the example of 4PM Monday,
>> where
>> you have:
>>
>> Getting a Logo for your Windows Driver Foundation Driver -
>> DDE-T683
>> Shared Secrets about Windows Driver Foundation: Part 2 -
>> DDE-T689
>> Using KMDF in Miniport Drivers - DDE-T685
>> Using Static Driver Verifier to Analyze KMDF Drivers -
>> DDE-C694
>>
>> While the first two are being held a second time, I guest people who want
>> to
>> use KMDF in a mini-port are assumed not to be interested in SDV or vice
>> versa. I see a lot of this in the schedule where multiple talks for the
>> same audience are scheduled at the same time. Of course there are also
>> at
>> least two slots where nothing of interest for me at least seem to be
>> scheduled.
>>
>
> Yes, but in all fairness, what you are describing is an unsolvable
> problem. I’ve been involved in scheduling educational sessions for
> square dance conventions. You can satisfy a certain percentage of the
> audience, but you can’t provide an optimal experience for all, or even
> most.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>

—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

9

It seems clear that you have a number of specific requirements. Perhaps you should send a proposed schedule for the conference that meets your needs.

-p

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:04 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Re:MORE Details About The DDC – My initial reactions

Doron,

I looked at the duplication, but of course what conflicted with the dup
but another feedback session on a specific topic! I know this stuff is
hard, but IMHO there are too many conflicts in some areas. Can the party
and move the feedback to Monday night, or round robin the Ask the Experts
with feedback sessions.

Right now the feedback sessions do not look of any value. Being placed
in the middle of the day, with 1 hour for the total time, they remind me of
last years WinHEC’s feedbacks. There they literally had a session where a
do you want question was asked, the majority (at by my and others read) said
no, and the moderator thanked us for the support as if we had answered yes,
AFAIK the internal effort for what was asked is still going on.

Most of us go to the conferences for information and to give feedback.
I see plenty of good information being presented, but it looks like I will
have to pick and choose a lot between sessions of interest. I don’t see a
lot of opportunity for feedback, and with all the problems in the WDK that
is unfortunate.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

“Doron Holan” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
Yes don. It is quite obvious we do not want feedback ;). Come on, give the
schedulers a break. There is a lot of content that needs to be wedged into
3 days and will conflict. The wdf and tools teams are aware of the overlap
and b/c there are repeat sessions, it was an acceptable solution.
Seriously, the folks who are running the conference are not tools. If they
did not want feedback, there would have been no feedback sessions at all :stuck_out_tongue:

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:16 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] MORE Details About The DDC – My initial reactions

Tim,

I agree it is unsolvable, but scheduling 4 sessions on KMDF at the
same time, seems a little extreme, especially when a few hours earlier they
have a slot with either PnP (heavily biased to USB) or SDIO (I don’t know if
the network or printer guys have something at the same time). In
particular the feedback sessions are now down to 2 hours, with multiple
things in conflict, I probably will not go to the feedback at this rate, and
it is obvious they don’t want feedback.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

“Tim Roberts” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Don Burn wrote:
>> Having spent a little time and build up a schedule, I hope that Microsoft
>> is
>> still tuning the times for sessions. Take the example of 4PM Monday,
>> where
>> you have:
>>
>> Getting a Logo for your Windows Driver Foundation Driver -
>> DDE-T683
>> Shared Secrets about Windows Driver Foundation: Part 2 -
>> DDE-T689
>> Using KMDF in Miniport Drivers - DDE-T685
>> Using Static Driver Verifier to Analyze KMDF Drivers -
>> DDE-C694
>>
>> While the first two are being held a second time, I guest people who want
>> to
>> use KMDF in a mini-port are assumed not to be interested in SDV or vice
>> versa. I see a lot of this in the schedule where multiple talks for the
>> same audience are scheduled at the same time. Of course there are also
>> at
>> least two slots where nothing of interest for me at least seem to be
>> scheduled.
>>
>
> Yes, but in all fairness, what you are describing is an unsolvable
> problem. I’ve been involved in scheduling educational sessions for
> square dance conventions. You can satisfy a certain percentage of the
> audience, but you can’t provide an optimal experience for all, or even
> most.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>

—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

10

Sorry if I am pissing off people at Micrsoft, but it does seem to me that
when you schedule a ton of KMDF and tools sessions such that the only
recourse is you skip something or bypass feedback it does seem to be a
problem. These are all general sessions, which says the “track” model
that Microsoft has used for years is broken here.

Don

“Peter Wieland” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
It seems clear that you have a number of specific requirements. Perhaps you
should send a proposed schedule for the conference that meets your needs.

-p

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:04 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Re:MORE Details About The DDC – My initial reactions

Doron,

I looked at the duplication, but of course what conflicted with the dup
but another feedback session on a specific topic! I know this stuff is
hard, but IMHO there are too many conflicts in some areas. Can the party
and move the feedback to Monday night, or round robin the Ask the Experts
with feedback sessions.

Right now the feedback sessions do not look of any value. Being placed
in the middle of the day, with 1 hour for the total time, they remind me of
last years WinHEC’s feedbacks. There they literally had a session where a
do you want question was asked, the majority (at by my and others read) said
no, and the moderator thanked us for the support as if we had answered yes,
AFAIK the internal effort for what was asked is still going on.

Most of us go to the conferences for information and to give feedback.
I see plenty of good information being presented, but it looks like I will
have to pick and choose a lot between sessions of interest. I don’t see a
lot of opportunity for feedback, and with all the problems in the WDK that
is unfortunate.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

“Doron Holan” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
Yes don. It is quite obvious we do not want feedback ;). Come on, give the
schedulers a break. There is a lot of content that needs to be wedged into
3 days and will conflict. The wdf and tools teams are aware of the overlap
and b/c there are repeat sessions, it was an acceptable solution.
Seriously, the folks who are running the conference are not tools. If they
did not want feedback, there would have been no feedback sessions at all :stuck_out_tongue:

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:16 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] MORE Details About The DDC – My initial reactions

Tim,

I agree it is unsolvable, but scheduling 4 sessions on KMDF at the
same time, seems a little extreme, especially when a few hours earlier they
have a slot with either PnP (heavily biased to USB) or SDIO (I don’t know if
the network or printer guys have something at the same time). In
particular the feedback sessions are now down to 2 hours, with multiple
things in conflict, I probably will not go to the feedback at this rate, and
it is obvious they don’t want feedback.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

“Tim Roberts” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Don Burn wrote:
>> Having spent a little time and build up a schedule, I hope that Microsoft
>> is
>> still tuning the times for sessions. Take the example of 4PM Monday,
>> where
>> you have:
>>
>> Getting a Logo for your Windows Driver Foundation Driver -
>> DDE-T683
>> Shared Secrets about Windows Driver Foundation: Part 2 -
>> DDE-T689
>> Using KMDF in Miniport Drivers - DDE-T685
>> Using Static Driver Verifier to Analyze KMDF Drivers -
>> DDE-C694
>>
>> While the first two are being held a second time, I guest people who want
>> to
>> use KMDF in a mini-port are assumed not to be interested in SDV or vice
>> versa. I see a lot of this in the schedule where multiple talks for the
>> same audience are scheduled at the same time. Of course there are also
>> at
>> least two slots where nothing of interest for me at least seem to be
>> scheduled.
>>
>
> Yes, but in all fairness, what you are describing is an unsolvable
> problem. I’ve been involved in scheduling educational sessions for
> square dance conventions. You can satisfy a certain percentage of the
> audience, but you can’t provide an optimal experience for all, or even
> most.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>

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11

Don Burn wrote:

Sorry if I am pissing off people at Micrsoft,

Are you really, Don? I don’t think you are.

12

I am not pissed off, rather I think that don is making it out like the scheduling can be easily fixed and I wanted to point out that it is not as simple as move X to Y, can the party at night, etc etc. it will never be perfect, the best you can do in such a situation is adapt to what is scheduled

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:05 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] MORE Details About The DDC – My initial reactions

Don Burn wrote:

Sorry if I am pissing off people at Micrsoft,

Are you really, Don? I don’t think you are.

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

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13

> … like the scheduling can be easily fixed and I wanted to point

out that it is not as simple as move X to Y, can the party at
night, etc etc. it will never be perfect, the best you can
do in such a situation is adapt to what is scheduled

I assume there is SOFTWARE that can optimize the problem. You would need to
assign priorities to each session on some rating scale, and it would
minimize conflicts. Ranking is likely more an art than a science, as you
can’t easily get people to read a session abstract and positivily know the
session’s value. There also are dependencies between sessions, as in “crash
debugging 2” needs to come later than “crash debugging 1”.

Schools and any orgnaization that have to assign timeslots to “classes” must
have to solve this on a regular basis. This seems like a problem that’s
common and been around a long time. I assume there are people at Microsoft
who are skilled at how to optimize this problem, and what we can do is give
feedback to help them rank sessions.

Jan

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database 3449 (20080917) __________

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http://www.eset.com

14

I don’t know about what college you went to, but where I went to school I suffered from the same problem where 2 classes (in the same department) I needed to attended were scheduled against each other, so it is not as if this is a solved problem (I would think it is NP hard at the very least). The problem is that priorities are relative and no matter who/what/8 way machine creates the schedule, you will always have a conflict for some subset.

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Jan Bottorff
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 2:00 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: RE:[ntdev] MORE Details About The DDC – My initial reactions

… like the scheduling can be easily fixed and I wanted to point
out that it is not as simple as move X to Y, can the party at
night, etc etc. it will never be perfect, the best you can
do in such a situation is adapt to what is scheduled

I assume there is SOFTWARE that can optimize the problem. You would need to
assign priorities to each session on some rating scale, and it would
minimize conflicts. Ranking is likely more an art than a science, as you
can’t easily get people to read a session abstract and positivily know the
session’s value. There also are dependencies between sessions, as in “crash
debugging 2” needs to come later than “crash debugging 1”.

Schools and any orgnaization that have to assign timeslots to “classes” must
have to solve this on a regular basis. This seems like a problem that’s
common and been around a long time. I assume there are people at Microsoft
who are skilled at how to optimize this problem, and what we can do is give
feedback to help them rank sessions.

Jan

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3449 (20080917) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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15

Well, at least we’re spending our time discussing something really important and useful to the general community.

Anybody but me want a beer?

Peter
OSR

16

Yeah, me too. One of the classes would have taught me what ‘NP hard’ is.
The other one taught me how to make an OP-Amp out of five transistors.
Given how I pay the bills lately, I guess I should have made the other
choice ;)_ though I did admire the winner of the IEEE Spectrum construction
contest this month with the all transistor digital clock.

Hind-sight.

-dave

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Doron Holan
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 5:11 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: RE:[ntdev] MORE Details About The DDC – My initial reactions

I don’t know about what college you went to, but where I went to school I
suffered from the same problem where 2 classes (in the same department) I
needed to attended were scheduled against each other, so it is not as if
this is a solved problem (I would think it is NP hard at the very least).
The problem is that priorities are relative and no matter who/what/8 way
machine creates the schedule, you will always have a conflict for some
subset.

d

17

IIRC, it is NP hard… Not sure if it is NP-complete :slight_smile:

Of course, beer is much preferred :slight_smile:

-pro

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Doron Holan wrote:

> I don’t know about what college you went to, but where I went to school I
> suffered from the same problem where 2 classes (in the same department) I
> needed to attended were scheduled against each other, so it is not as if
> this is a solved problem (I would think it is NP hard at the very least).
> The problem is that priorities are relative and no matter who/what/8 way
> machine creates the schedule, you will always have a conflict for some
> subset.
>
> d
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Jan Bottorff
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 2:00 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE: RE:[ntdev] MORE Details About The DDC – My initial
> reactions
>
> > … like the scheduling can be easily fixed and I wanted to point
> > out that it is not as simple as move X to Y, can the party at
> > night, etc etc. it will never be perfect, the best you can
> > do in such a situation is adapt to what is scheduled
>
> I assume there is SOFTWARE that can optimize the problem. You would need to
> assign priorities to each session on some rating scale, and it would
> minimize conflicts. Ranking is likely more an art than a science, as you
> can’t easily get people to read a session abstract and positivily know the
> session’s value. There also are dependencies between sessions, as in “crash
> debugging 2” needs to come later than “crash debugging 1”.
>
> Schools and any orgnaization that have to assign timeslots to “classes”
> must
> have to solve this on a regular basis. This seems like a problem that’s
> common and been around a long time. I assume there are people at Microsoft
> who are skilled at how to optimize this problem, and what we can do is give
> feedback to help them rank sessions.
>
> Jan
>
>
>
> Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 3449 (20080917)
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

18

Prokash Sinha wrote:

IIRC, it is NP hard… Not sure if it is NP-complete :slight_smile:

Of course, beer is much preferred :slight_smile:

Ah, all it takes is one of the common modern proof techniques. For
example, Proof by Eminent Authority: “I saw Knuth in the elevator, and
he said optimal DDC session scheduling is probably NP-complete.” Or,
Proof by Inaccessible Personal Communication: “Optimal DDC session
scheduling is NP-complete (Knuth, personal communication).”

–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

19

Though it (this thd.) might start tail spinning soon, I must say I was
slammed Tim :).

BTW, usually there are some nasty problems ( not for me though ) that are
NP hard but not NP complete … Elevator is not one though !

-pro

Prokash Sinha wrote:
> IIRC, it is NP hard… Not sure if it is NP-complete :slight_smile:
>
> Of course, beer is much preferred :slight_smile:

Ah, all it takes is one of the common modern proof techniques. For
example, Proof by Eminent Authority: “I saw Knuth in the elevator, and
he said optimal DDC session scheduling is probably NP-complete.” Or,
Proof by Inaccessible Personal Communication: “Optimal DDC session
scheduling is NP-complete (Knuth, personal communication).”

–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

20

Sorry for random ramblings :-(.

I was not clear, and was fighting a fairly large compilation problem (
between openssl, SIP, RTP under VS 2005 IDE, when to have def file and
when to exclude what std. runtime … that sort …)

What I meant to say by being slammed …

Many moons ago, I was involved with recursively definable graph
algorithms. Usually in discrete structure there are many many problems
that are either NP-Hard or NP-complete. Graph algorithms is one such
area ( problems abound). But recursively definable sturcures are nice,
they provide linear to sub linear resul ( ie. O(n), O(logn) etc. )
Results were quite nice…

Other approach was probabilistic, and there was a general approach for
“Probabilistic recurrences” first challenged by Karp from Barkley…
Being a grad student, I took the challenge, moved a bit, but quite
nicely *slammed* by the then complexity.

The real authority in this area is S.C. Johnson from Bell Labs.

-pro

xxxxx@garlic.com wrote:

Though it (this thd.) might start tail spinning soon, I must say I was
slammed Tim :).

BTW, usually there are some nasty problems ( not for me though ) that are
NP hard but not NP complete … Elevator is not one though !

-pro

> Prokash Sinha wrote:
>
>> IIRC, it is NP hard… Not sure if it is NP-complete :slight_smile:
>>
>> Of course, beer is much preferred :slight_smile:
>>
> Ah, all it takes is one of the common modern proof techniques. For
> example, Proof by Eminent Authority: “I saw Knuth in the elevator, and
> he said optimal DDC session scheduling is probably NP-complete.” Or,
> Proof by Inaccessible Personal Communication: “Optimal DDC session
> scheduling is NP-complete (Knuth, personal communication).”
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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