Mixing C and C++ files in a driver project.

NTDEV
81

Actually, major OEMs will leave the OS off for one man operations without
question. I have bought 2 Dell systems with no OS just within the last
year.

  • Dan.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of David Craig
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:38 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Mixing C and C++ files in a driver project.

It would be if some could have it made a law, but large OEMs have to install
an OS on all systems if they want to get the best pricing for Windows. Some
of this may have changed with the anti-trust settlements. I know most major
OEMs will leave the OS off for major customers who have volume licenses.

“Dan Kyler” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> In what country is it illegal to sell a computer without an operating
> system?
>
> That’s what I thought. You’re still a moron.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
> xxxxx@hotmail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:32 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE:[ntdev] Mixing C and C++ files in a driver project.
>
>> So is the BIOS on your pre-built machine also a “tax”?
>
> Actually, this is pretty spacious argument - although it may sound
> convincing, in actuality, it is not.
> There is a difference between the embedded and installable software.
> The former is tightly bound to the hardware that needs firmware in
> order to be functional, so that it gets installed by the hardware
> manufacturer - it is impossible to make any use of the target hardware
> without it, because this is the only “entity” that has in-depth knowledge
of underlying hardware.
> The
> latter is just an add-on feature that gets installed by the user. BIOS
> belongs to the former class of software, and OS and application
> software belong to the latter one…
>
>>1394 ports? I don’t need 'em (at home).
>
> Again, the same story, but already at the level of hardware
> controllers - they can come either on board (i.e. are just motherboard
> feature) or as add-on PCI cards (i.e. installable by user). Have you
> ever seen a OEM PC with 1394, USB, network, etc controller that comes
> as an add-on PCI card???
>
>> If it weren’t Microsoft we were talking about, no one would make this
>> kind
> of statement.
>
> Wrong!!! This statement can be made in respect of everything that is
> meant to be add-on feature but somehow gets presented as embedded one,
> be it hardware or software, especially if an interested party makes a
> deal with this or that government that legally obliges OEMs to provide
> add-on feature in question on all machines that they produce. Somehow
> it just happened that up to this point no one, apart from MSFT, tried
> to present add-on features as embedded ones, let alone requesting
> legal assistance in doing so…
>
>> Companies sell PCs with the OS (in this case Windows) preinstalled
>> because
> that’s what the vast >majority of their customers want.
>
> If this was the case, there would be just no point in legally
> forcing them to do so, don’t you think???
>
> Anton Bassov
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>

—
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82

(deleted by moderator)

83

Anton,

Please read your own words carefully - "properly licensed OS"......
Formally there is no problem with the statement and ...

Try any free OS, watch carefully the dialogs that are displayed during
installation, and see if you ever come across something like EULA, any
mentioning of licensing of any description (even free one) or anything
even remotely related to this field.....
... you will find these dialogs occasionally or you get to know the license before you download a distro. Fully depends on what you download.

In any case, it doesn't matter. Let's say you have something like Debian - then there is no need because the license (GPL) contains all the rights the user and the author have. And the fact that the software is "Free Software" under the terms of the GPL are indeed stated about everywhere.

So while one may consider Microsoft's EULA's as limiting, a Debian installation is a "properly licensed OS" without showing any EULA. But still it is licensed and moreover "properly licensed".

But could we please get back from off-topic and ad-hominem attacks to those topics for which this list was founded?!

Thanks in advance,

// Oliver

DDKWizard and DDKBUILD: http:</http:>

84

(deleted by moderator)

85

Dan,

I’ve got no interest in getting into some kind of ugly “bar-room brawl” with you, but your overall ignorance just amazes me …

I have never in my life/professional career (to my knowledge) bought a computer
manufactured in China.

Probably, this is just because your overall knowledge is rather limited, so that you believe that when you buy a PC with English-sounding name like “Packard Bell” you are actually buying US-produced machine??? What I would advise you to do is to browse the web for definitions of “outsourcing”, “acquisition” and “import” - if I got it right, these terms are not yet in your vocabulary. After you get familiar with these concepts, take your machine’s user manual, record the precise model of your PC, and do a thorough web search on both PC model and company history - you are quite likely to discover that you are actually using Chinese-made machine with Taiwanese motherboard and English-sounding name…

I didn’t realize that the demise of the Soviet Union included a clause that you have
to buy all your computers from China.

Actually, I don’t really know about the clauses covering the demise of the Soviet Union ( I was lucky enough to leave it before it even collapsed), so that I really have no clue what computers they use in the ex-USSR. However, if we make a bold assumption that they use the same computers that we use in Europe, then I would say that most OEM machines (apart from Dell, of course) are, indeed, produced in China…

Anton Bassov

86

This is the first time in about 10 years I’ve heard the name “Packard Bell”.
I don’t know where you are, I just know what you apparently espouse. Fix
that, and I’ll consider being polite.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
xxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:35 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] Mixing C and C++ files in a driver project.

Dan,

I’ve got no interest in getting into some kind of ugly “bar-room brawl” with
you, but your overall ignorance just amazes me …

I have never in my life/professional career (to my knowledge) bought a
computer manufactured in China.

Probably, this is just because your overall knowledge is rather limited, so
that you believe that when you buy a PC with English-sounding name like
“Packard Bell” you are actually buying US-produced machine??? What I would
advise you to do is to browse the web for definitions of “outsourcing”,
“acquisition” and “import” - if I got it right, these terms are not yet in
your vocabulary. After you get familiar with these concepts, take your
machine’s user manual, record the precise model of your PC, and do a
thorough web search on both PC model and company history - you are quite
likely to discover that you are actually using Chinese-made machine with
Taiwanese motherboard and English-sounding name…

I didn’t realize that the demise of the Soviet Union included a clause
that you have to buy all your computers from China.

Actually, I don’t really know about the clauses covering the demise of the
Soviet Union ( I was lucky enough to leave it before it even collapsed), so
that I really have no clue what computers they use in the ex-USSR. However,
if we make a bold assumption that they use the same computers that we use in
Europe, then I would say that most OEM machines (apart from Dell, of
course) are, indeed, produced in China…

Anton Bassov

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

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87

> For some reason, Anton would like to be associated with genocide.So Peter is welcome to ban me instead of Anton, but until then, Anton won’t trivialize 20 million murders while advancing his political views of China, Microsoft, et al, without me challenging him.

Oops, Dan, I retract my previous message - I just did not see your latest post while typing the previous one. I am afraid you need just medical assistance, rather than education…

Anton Bassov

88

Now it is really ugly !!!

Could you (both) please stop now???

Are you both making any points here or what ???

pro

(edited by moderator)

89

(deleted by moderator)

90

> Are you both making any points here or what ???

No more - I argue only with those who are mentally stable, and, judging from Dan’s latest post, it does not seem to be the case here. Therefore, from now on I ignore the individual in question completely…

Anton Bassov

91

As a RI boy (originally), I’m all for more sarcastic, ornery Yankees making their voices heard on ntdev. Maybe the ‘winner’ of this
scintillating, productive thread - granted I haven’t any idea of what it’s about any more - should have to sport some itty bitty
Larry Bird shorts for a month or so. Granted everyone wore them back in the day, but no one and I mean no one looked as nasty in
them as Larry (speaking of ornery Yankees (honorary)) did. Really, no one was even playing the same sport, so to speak. In any
case, my bottom line on this one is that it’s possible that I’d rather bite of my own jimmy than walk around in those mugs, looking
like a refugee from a Hooters Gone Bad or perhaps Richard Simmons, so I really feel like we’d see some quality results.

Scott, maybe you should suggest this at the next osr meeting, because together we could we could end threads like this forever, with
a little help from an even littler set of green shorts.

Have a good evening,

mm

Scott Noone wrote:

MessageMaybe Kevin Garnett is dating Jessica Simpson. Did anyone scan the
crowd for a woman in a pink Celtics shirt?

-scott

92

Oliver,

In any case, it doesn’t matter. Let’s say you have something like Debian - then there is no need >because the license (GPL) contains all the rights the user and the author have. And the fact that the >software is “Free Software” under the terms of the GPL are indeed stated about everywhere.

I am afraid you are confusing the concepts of “Free Software” and “Open Source” -these are totally unrelated things. Please check http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#WhatDoesGPLStandFor

[begin quote]

Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money?

Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only release.)

[end quote]

Therefore, you can charge money for your program (as well as for source that comes with it) even if it is covered by GPL, as long as you don’t refuse to provide your source. Conversely, you can compile parts of your modified kernel under non-GPL-compatible license (which means that you are not required to provide your source, but are unable to use quite a few functions and structures exported by kernel), and distribute it for free…

Anton Bassov

93

Martin,

…t.his scintillating, productive thread

Actually, this is one of the most “exciting” threads in history of OSR that, apart from other things, contains explicit hatred, direct insults and even accusations of supporting genocide - I’ve never seen anything like that in so far on OSR. I remember the thread around 3 months ago that Peter called “the most fucking stupid thread ever”, but this one seems to have set a new benchmark that is, apparently, not going to get broken for quite a while (unless Dan keeps his promise to go after me everywhere, and, judging from his tone in reply to Michal, he is deadly determined to do so - certainly, I am going to ignore him anyway, but I bet his posts are going to be “interesting”)…

Anton Bassov

94

http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df9601/df960124.jpg

95

Michael, you made this whole nasty thread worth while. I can’t thank you enough. The author of this was very prescient,
considering that is was published in 1996.

Thanks,

mm

xxxxx@web.de wrote:

http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df9601/df960124.jpg

96

Martin O’Brien wrote:

Could you elaborate? What was published in '96?

So much to read here; I went a whole day without checking email or
touching a computer… I’ve read the thread now,
but what about in '96?

Lost and sauced (again)

Matt

Michael, you made this whole nasty thread worth while. I can’t thank
you enough. The author of this was very prescient, considering that
is was published in 1996.

Thanks,

mm

xxxxx@web.de wrote:
> http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df9601/df960124.jpg

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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97

The comic.

Matt, nothing personal, but most of us do this as part of our job, or at least for career purposes, and I’m not sure anyone wants to
hear from you if you’re shitfaced.

Go to sleep,

mm

Matt wrote:

Martin O’Brien wrote:

Could you elaborate? What was published in '96?

So much to read here; I went a whole day without checking email or
touching a computer… I’ve read the thread now,
but what about in '96?

Lost and sauced (again)

Matt

> Michael, you made this whole nasty thread worth while. I can’t thank
> you enough. The author of this was very prescient, considering that
> is was published in 1996.
>
> Thanks,
>
> mm
>
> xxxxx@web.de wrote:
>> http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df9601/df960124.jpg
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

98

Martin O’Brien wrote:

No offense taken, while I’m not really ‘shitfaced’, I was only curious
about the year of '96. I asked because I recall several months ago,
someone began responding to threads that were several years old.

Just didn’t get what you were referring to. Regarding the last part of
your post, well, I’m not sure it would matter…

Best Wishes,

Matt

The comic.

Matt, nothing personal, but most of us do this as part of our job, or
at least for career purposes, and I’m not sure anyone wants to hear
from you if you’re shitfaced.

Go to sleep,

mm

Matt wrote:
> Martin O’Brien wrote:
>
> Could you elaborate? What was published in '96?
>
> So much to read here; I went a whole day without checking email or
> touching a computer… I’ve read the thread now,
> but what about in '96?
>
> Lost and sauced (again)
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>> Michael, you made this whole nasty thread worth while. I can’t
>> thank you enough. The author of this was very prescient,
>> considering that is was published in 1996.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> mm
>>
>> xxxxx@web.de wrote:
>>> http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df9601/df960124.jpg
>>
>> —
>> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>>
>> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
>> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>>
>> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
>> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>>
>
>

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

99

Mr. Kyler, I have NO IDEA what your major malfunction is, but your behavior is WAAAAY out of line and specifically against the rules of this list. We won’t have any hate speech here, dude. No way. No how.

This whole thread has been rude, nasty, and mostly pointless. I TOLERATED it because, well, even if people WERE randomly kicking the shit out of Anton, I thought the debate about Vista and the “tax” required for OS licenses was vaugely amusing.

I see I was now wrong. From Mr. Burn – a long esteemed and valued member of the list – telling people they’re IDIOTS to Mr. Bassov – a long standing member of this list who helps far more people than he annoyes – arguing the issues in every single post… to the ultimate low, Mr. Kyler deciding to tell people his world views.

This list WILL return to a cordial discussion of technical topics, minus the long digressions and hate speech. All we ask is that you keep it within “classic usenet bounds” – I’m good with a spirited argument or the even a flame war every now and again.

But this isn’t alt.rec.yourebored.soapbox – So, let’s keep it focused.

I’ll deal with Mr. Kyler despicable conduct off list,

Peter
OSR

100

Peter,

This whole thread has been rude, nasty, and mostly pointless.

Well, it must have been obvious to any regular of this list that the thread titled “Mixing C and C++ files in a driver project” does not really sound like something that has a potential to evolve into a particularly constructive discussion. Therefore, taking into consideration our earlier discussions of thread hijacking, up to some certain point I tried to refrain from actively participating in it, and entered the “rant mode” only when the thread was already 47 posts long, had some elements of bickering in it, and the whole thing switched to Vista bashing. At this point it became obvious to me that no matter which path the thread takes, it will be already impossible to accuse me of hijacking it - at this point it was already miles away from the original topic anyway. Therefore, I just could not miss my chance to enter the “rant mode” …

even if people WERE randomly kicking the shit out of Anton, I thought the debate
about Vista and the"tax" required for OS licenses was vaugely amusing.

Well, we have quite similar reaction to the whole thing - I also found it amusing, and, as a result, the thread somehow doubled in size. If some of list members found it annoying, I am really sorry for this. - my apologies…

the ultimate low, Mr. Kyler deciding to tell people his world views.

To be honest, I found Mr. Kyler’s contribution to be the most amusing part of this thread. Let’s face it - we don’t hear accusations of supporting genocide on NTDEV that often, do we ?? I also got impressed with
his logic that somehow linked my nickname of the last 16 years with supporting genocide. ( I left USSR when it was still there so that anyone from USSR was referred to as “Soviet”; Soviet bloc was still there as well; someone in the pub jokingly refereed to me as “Soviet bloc” to which I jokingly asked “Bloc or bloke?”; that was it - once puns are just the essential part of English way and the nickname “Soviet Bloke” sounds funny, it got stuck to me forever).

The only depressing thing about Mr.Kyler is that he may well be relying upon the same schizophrenic logic when dealing with IRPs - having a driver in the same stack with Mr.Kyler’s one seems to be the kind of thing I would not wish even upon MSFT itself…

Anton Bassov