xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:
True, but I’m not sure I follow you. When you buy Vista, you get both
copies (32 and 64). For 99.9% of
people, this only matters if you want to cross the 4gb barrier or not.
If your referring to the 64 driver signing policy, I doubt most people
will care about this (outside of this forum).
Then again, this policy can be overcome easily.
Matt
> Unlike a few years ago, most all new CPU’s incorporate hardware based DEP
> (reason to buy a new system)
>
…but no reason to run 32-bit OS on it - don’t forget that all new CPU’s incorporate support for 64-bit extensions as well…
Anton Bassov
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xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
Well, my system is fast, it isn’t crashing, all my peripherals work, I
haven’t lost any work… What monstrosities have I
failed to notice in the last 4 months?
If you have had problems with it, I wouldn’t doubt it - it’s a new OS
after all. I’m just at a point where I haven’t had
any problems; maybe I’m just lucky in this sense. But for the life of
me, given my experience, I just don’t understand
where the strong dislike comes from. The Betas that I tried were indeed
horrible, and I carried the same dislike for
Vista as others for a long time until I began using it regularly on a
system that could support it.
If you upgraded, or installed it in a VM - well, then I completely
understand your experiance. Otherwise, on your brand
new cutting edge hardware, what problems occurred?
Matt
For YOU. YOU like it, YOU use it. I’m gonna continue to run 64-bit Server 2003 on my dev box, thank you (I got it free at the last DDC!).
I’m waiting for Windows 7 SP1,
Peter
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Matt wrote:
Is this the message? Best Vista experience with “all new hardware”?
Remember Intel and AMD: frequently changing processor pinouts made
upgrades unattractive, and platform change very easy.
You risk losing the loyalty of your existing customer base.
Maybe in the U.S., not here. Unbundling is legal in the E.U., so not
many people go for the full-price version. And pre-installed versions
here are mostly for 32bit. Upgrading these to Ultimate still restricts
you to 32bit. (Or am I missing something?)
“Oliver Schneider” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>> I think the C++ comments were added to the C
>> standard or maybe a standard currently in the process of becoming
>> official.
>> I find the old C comments very painful, but I also like tabs and not
>> spaces, though I can’t use this currently.
> … and C99 has them all … including the capability of declaring
> variables directly before use.
>
> http:
>
That’s a very appropriate comment, IMHO.
In any case we use not the “standard” C in kernel,
but some extension, either Microsoft’s or GNU
(inline functions, pragmas and other things that
are nesessary for the real work). But anyway this is not plain C.
Regards,
–PA
/
p.s. The c++ comments are strictly forbidden in the “open source” world
because of their custom to distribute source patches via news posts,
blogs, etc - so the long lines may wrap around and the // comments
will make trouble. The old C comments are resistent to breaking long lines.
So don’t try the // comments in public Linux projects. Then it would be
painful
/</http:>
> When you buy Vista, you get both copies (32 and 64).
IIR, we are speaking about buying the new machine . Most PCs sold today already don’t provide OEM CD,but, instead, have pre-installed OS on so-called “recovery partition”, so that you get this crap “for free”. When you boot the machine the very first time, the OS gets installed, and, IIRC, you are not offered any option - you just get the OS from this recovery partition, and somehow it happens to be 32-bit Vista, Home Edition, despite the fact that your hardware is capable of running 64-bit OS (I am already not speaking about the option of buying just a machine without any OS - if you want something like that, you have to contact the shop that assembles computers upon the request, rather than buying OEM PC). Your only choice is that of a CD that you insert into your CD drive when you decide to erase this crap for good and install the OS of your own choice…
Anton Bassov
xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:
My God, what is your obsession with playing ro-sham-bo???
I was given a Vista Ultimate Upgrade cd Package after buying a new
system that had Vista home 32 installed
by default.
> When you buy Vista, you get both copies (32 and 64).
>
IIR, we are speaking about buying the new machine . Most PCs sold today already don’t provide OEM CD,but, instead, have pre-installed OS on so-called “recovery partition”, so that you get this crap “for free”. When you boot the machine the very first time, the OS gets installed, and, IIRC, you are not offered any option - you just get the OS from this recovery partition, and somehow it happens to be 32-bit Vista, Home Edition, despite the fact that your hardware is capable of running 64-bit OS (I am already not speaking about the option of buying just a machine without any OS - if you want something like that, you have to contact the shop that assembles computers upon the request, rather than buying OEM PC). Your only choice is that of a CD that you insert into your CD drive when you decide to erase this crap for good and install the OS of your own choice…
Anton Bassov
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
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RANT MODE>
I can’t speak to how Microsoft sells there product, or how they do in a particular part of the world,
Well, I would say the statement about the “particular part of the world” applies more to OEM’s location, rather than customer’s one. Somehow it happens that most OEM PCs sold in the Western world today are produced in China, and, IIRC, few months ago on his visit to China Mr.Gates struck a deal with their government, so that all OEM PCs produced in China are *legally* obliged to have pre-installed OS (certainly, this was done in the name of fighting the software piracy). Once no one wants to buy RTM version of their crap, now they sell it via OEMs, and *legally* force then to sell Vista (probably, even against their wishes). Where the fuck is so-called “customer protection” - we are forced to pay for something that we don’t even intend to use.
IMHO, when EU Commission was imposing fines on MSFT for unfair market practices they were barking on the wrong tree - they were fining them for outdated practices that they are not going to use any more anyway, simply because they found more efficient ones. What we really need is just a law that prohibits sales of PCs and laptops with pre-installed OS. If you decide that you need OEM version, you should be able to purchase it separately, but it should be YOUR choice…
Anton Bassov
> Hagen Patzke wrote:
> Remember Intel and AMD: frequently changing processor pinouts made
> upgrades unattractive, and platform change very easy.
> You risk losing the loyalty of your existing customer base.
Matt wrote:
You lost me here, […] No idea what your point is…
My point is: when there is no upgrade path anymore, people are more
willing to “try a completely different system”.
Before Intel and AMD both changed pinouts with every new processor
release, the scheme was (simplified): “buy motherboard with XYZ
processor” -> “upgrade XYZ processor” -> “upgrade motherboard (keep the
processor)” -> “upgrade XYZ processor” -> …repeat.
When Intel and AMD both changed pinouts with every new processor
release, the scheme changed to: “buy motherboard with XYZ processor” ->
“buy new motherboard with XYZ or CBA processor” -> …repeat.
So it became much easier to switch hardware vendors at each upgrade cycle.
Once you force people go for completely new hardware with your new OS
version, then they might also change their OS and buy something
completely different.
(E.g. a Mac, or whatever else is cool at the moment.)
And if these people did not invest heavily in software (which at this
point might also not run properly anymore –> how about hardware
dongles???) they might not give a toss what OS they actually use.
And this effect is something MS certainly does not want.
Hence their message will never by “buy all new hardware”.
xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:
Bravo, I couldn’t agree more here. Although I would probably choose a
versions of windows, I already own multiple licenses to multiple versions.
I consider the new preinstalled OS to only be a tax. I’ve demanded to
have clean systems shipped before, that involved a bunch of crap. Being
transfered
around in loops, until finally having “release” forms faxed to me. Kinda
messed up you have to sign release forms to buy hardware.
Matt
(so off topic, last post here…)
< RANT MODE>
> I can’t speak to how Microsoft sells there product, or how they do in a particular part of the world,
>
Well, I would say the statement about the “particular part of the world” applies more to OEM’s location, rather than customer’s one. Somehow it happens that most OEM PCs sold in the Western world today are produced in China, and, IIRC, few months ago on his visit to China Mr.Gates struck a deal with their government, so that all OEM PCs produced in China are *legally* obliged to have pre-installed OS (certainly, this was done in the name of fighting the software piracy). Once no one wants to buy RTM version of their crap, now they sell it via OEMs, and *legally* force then to sell Vista (probably, even against their wishes). Where the fuck is so-called “customer protection” - we are forced to pay for something that we don’t even intend to use.
IMHO, when EU Commission was imposing fines on MSFT for unfair market practices they were barking on the wrong tree - they were fining them for outdated practices that they are not going to use any more anyway, simply because they found more efficient ones. What we really need is just a law that prohibits sales of PCs and laptops with pre-installed OS. If you decide that you need OEM version, you should be able to purchase it separately, but it should be YOUR choice…
Anton Bassov
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Matt wrote:
I was given a Vista Ultimate Upgrade cd Package after buying a new
system that had Vista home 32 installed by default.
Now that’s customer service. You should stick with that PC vendor! 
For me buying Ultimate/64bit would mean shelling out >$800+.
The Ultimate upgrade I have at home was on sale for $120+, but the
license allows only using the same platform I already had pre-installed,
i.e., the 32bit version.
> I was given a Vista Ultimate Upgrade cd Package after buying a new system that had
Vista home 32 installed by default.
And I was given two empty CDs and told that the very first thing I’ve got to do is after booting the OS is burning the installation image from the recovery partition to the CD so that I can re-install the OS if something goes wrong. This is all I got. When I asked for motherboard documentation, I was given a user guide explaining how to run Vista. On my first exposure I just walked out of the shop (to be honest, first I just thought that sales assistant was an idiot), but after having visited several ones and encountering the same scenario everywhere, I came to the conclusion that I’ve got no option ( you can hardly find anything, apart from PackardBell in a country I am currently located in), other than writing down the PC model and searching the web for the hardware details of the machine I am about to buy…
My God, what is your obsession with playing ro-sham-bo???
Taking into consideration all the above and keeping in mind that, in addition to it, I had to purchase the OS that I had no interest in, I hope you can understand my “customer dissatisfaction”…
Anton Bassov
I’m confused; are you saying that Vista Ultimate 64-bit costs about $800 where you are? If so, wow, that sucks. Actually, now that
I think about it, I have no idea of what Vista costs in the US, but I assume that it’s not that much.
Thanks,
mm
Hagen Patzke wrote:
Matt wrote:
> I was given a Vista Ultimate Upgrade cd Package after buying a new
> system that had Vista home 32 installed by default.
Now that’s customer service. You should stick with that PC vendor!
For me buying Ultimate/64bit would mean shelling out >$800+.
The Ultimate upgrade I have at home was on sale for $120+, but the
license allows only using the same platform I already had pre-installed,
i.e., the 32bit version.
Martin O’Brien schrieb:
I’m confused; are you saying that Vista Ultimate 64-bit costs about $800
where you are? If so, wow, that sucks. Actually, now that I think
about it, I have no idea of what Vista costs in the US, but I assume
that it’s not that much.
Well, I did some checking and found these prices.
Official RRP for MS Vista Ultimate 32/64 in Germany (according to web
articles):
NOV2007: EUR849.00 (~USD1,270)
JAN2008: EUR499.00 (~USD749)
MAR2008: EUR310.00 (~USD449)
I remember having seen the official Microsoft Vista Ultimate 32/64 bit
box end of last year on a discount retail store shelf (!) for EUR549.00
(~USD820).
A little internet research today lists a “best price” of EUR254.66
(~USD382) for the full product (the upgrade is ~USD30 cheaper).
APR2008: EUR254.66 (~USD382)
There are cheaper versions available, the OEM and System Builder
editions. You can have eg. Vista Ultimate 32bit (System Builder) for
~USD200 (EUR136,85, incl. VAT, excl. P&P).
This does not include the 64bit version.
IMHO, I was lucky, in January they had a special offer for EUR80.00
(~USD120) for the Ultimate Upgrade package. I got that one to upgrade
from my “Home Premium”.
(After that they charged EUR149.00 (~USD224) again - for the upgrade.)
Oliver Schneider wrote:
> I think the C++ comments were added to the C
> standard or maybe a standard currently in the process of becoming
> official.
> I find the old C comments very painful, but I also like tabs and not
> spaces, though I can’t use this currently.
>
… and C99 has them all … including the capability of declaring variables directly before use.
Right, although for better or worse, Microsoft has chosen to defer C99
in their compiler products.
It will be an interesting day when they do adopt it; a lot of people in
the DDK world are going to be surprised by the aggressive new
non-aliasing assumptions in C99.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
Martin O’Brien wrote:
I’m confused; are you saying that Vista Ultimate 64-bit costs about
$800 where you are? If so, wow, that sucks. Actually, now that I
think about it, I have no idea of what Vista costs in the US, but I
assume that it’s not that much.
Buy.com shows it today for $622.37.
However, since you can buy the “designed for use on a new computer only”
version for about $180, I suspect they don’t sell very many at that price.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
Microsoft will logo drivers written in ESPERANTO if they can pass all the tests. I know that they logo drivers written in C++, as well as drivers written in C with C++ file types. There are definitely numerous drivers written in C++ that appear in the standard Windows distribution kit. Most written by Microsoft. Some well known and some less-so.
Virtually all AVStream drivers are written in C++, using real C++
features like classes and derivation.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
> Official RRP for MS Vista Ultimate 32/64 in Germany (according to web articles):
NOV2007: EUR849.00 (~USD1,270)
JAN2008: EUR499.00 (~USD749) MAR2008:
EUR310.00 (~USD449)
Add the extra cost of the software packages like MS Office to that, calculate the result, and compare it with absolutely free and superior to Windows in all respects OSes that are shipped with all software that you may possibly need (and if you still need something, you can download it for free). It looks like people have much more money than reason…
Anton Bassov
> I consider the new preinstalled OS to only be a tax.
As long as you have no interest in it whatsoever, this, indeed, looks pretty much like VAT. The “only” difference is that , in the end of the day, VAT gets received by the government of the country where the PC was sold, but, in this particular case, it gets received by MSFT, no matter where the PC in question got sold. Do you consider MSFT as some kind of “world government” that can charge VAT on worldwide basis.???
Anton Bassov
Anton,
> I consider the new preinstalled OS to only be a tax.
As long as you have no interest in it whatsoever, this, indeed, looks
pretty much like VAT. The “only” difference is that , in the end of the
day, VAT gets received by the government of the country where the PC was
sold, but, in this particular case, it gets received by MSFT, no matter
where the PC in question got sold. Do you consider MSFT as some kind
of “world government” that can charge VAT on worldwide basis.???
I think you’re misunderstanding “tax”. In figurative speech in the context of software projects, the term “tax” is often used to describe concessions you have to make in order to be able to develop software in a certain way. Usability concessions would be a “tax” as well …
In the current context, Vista would be a “tax” in this very sense, because every user would expect your “Windows product” to be compatible with Vista - and certain aspects of Vista make it quite different, depending on the level at which your software runs 
// Oliver
PS: … still wondering how we got from the well-known and loved/hated C/C++ debate to Vista-bashing debate 
–
DDKWizard and DDKBUILD: http:</http:>