LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

I’m wondering how come a run of the mill Ethernet simulating virtual NDIS 6 driver would not be listed in the Win7 “Network Connections” folder, reachable via “Change adapter settings”, among other ways. What is the display criteria used in this case by the Network Connections service? The driver works alright in all other respects. Listed by “ipconfig”, used as an “active network”, network map is built for it etc.

Trying to figure out how this adapter is different from all other adapters I’ve developed previously, to paraphrase the Passover question. :slight_smile:

Many thanks for all the insights,

Ilya Faenson
Rockville, MD USA

NCF_HIDDEN?

Good Luck,
Dave Cattley

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 10:04 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

I’m wondering how come a run of the mill Ethernet simulating virtual NDIS 6
driver would not be listed in the Win7 “Network Connections” folder,
reachable via “Change adapter settings”, among other ways. What is the
display criteria used in this case by the Network Connections service? The
driver works alright in all other respects. Listed by “ipconfig”, used as
an “active network”, network map is built for it etc.

Trying to figure out how this adapter is different from all other adapters
I’ve developed previously, to paraphrase the Passover question. :slight_smile:

Many thanks for all the insights,

Ilya Faenson
Rockville, MD USA


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

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Appreciate a prompt reply, Dave. No, just the NCF_VIRTUAL is listed in Characteristics.

I’ve now isolated the issue to a particular hardware id. If I employ any other id, the connection is properly displayed. This is a replacement for the inbox network driver (blessed by MSFT but that’s a long story) so the use of MSFT id is desirable. That id apparently triggers special processing by the Network Connections service.

Time to talk to MSFT.

Many thanks,

Ilya Faenson
Rockville, MD USA

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
On Behalf Of xxxxx@msn.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 13:52 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

NCF_HIDDEN?
Good Luck, Dave Cattley

(Why talk to Microsoft when you can enlist the aid of 1000 of your best friends on OSR NTDEV?)

As Dave said, NCF_HIDDEN devices will be hidden (surprise!). Other reasons a device will be hidden from this UI:

  • Its INF file doesn’t list the network adapter as having ndis5 or (on Win7) Flpp4/Flpp6 UpperRange (older OSes had more options here, like the venerable FDDI)
  • Device has a CM_PROB_XXX code (besides merely being CM_PROB_DISABLED)
  • Network interface is not properly registered with INetCfg (check that it can be enumerated through INetCfg::EnumComponents)
  • Device can’t be enumerated through HrSetupDiGetClassDevs(&GUID_DEVCLASS_NET, …, DIGCF_PRESENT, …).
    There’s also some additional hoops to jump through if you are a WLAN (or more exotically… Bluetooth and IrDA) device-- are you?

I would double-check the NCF_HIDDEN bit since it’s so easy to investigate. Find the property store under
HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class{4D36E972-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}<some number> ! Characteristics
and verify that bit 0x0008 is clear. While you’re there, verify that there is a convincing-looking GUID under the REG_SZ value NetCfgInstanceId.

The Network Connections service does not, as far as I know, special-case any PNPIDs. My guess is actually on INetCfg weirdness. But usermode is a scary place, so I really can’t claim that my guesses carry any expertise.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 11:42 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

Appreciate a prompt reply, Dave. No, just the NCF_VIRTUAL is listed in Characteristics.

I’ve now isolated the issue to a particular hardware id. If I employ any other id, the connection is properly displayed. This is a replacement for the inbox network driver (blessed by MSFT but that’s a long story) so the use of MSFT id is desirable. That id apparently triggers special processing by the Network Connections service.

Time to talk to MSFT.

Many thanks,

Ilya Faenson
Rockville, MD USA

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@msn.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 13:52 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

NCF_HIDDEN?
Good Luck, Dave Cattley


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

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A great list of potential options, Jeffrey, thanks a lot for putting it together. Sounds like I am talking to one of my best friends at Microsoft? :slight_smile:

None of these options are applicable to this case though except possibly the INetCfg enumeration (will check that on Monday). I would however be very interested in “some additional hoops” you mention as this driver is indeed a replacement for the BTH\MS_BTHPAN. The issue seems to be clear enough: if I install a generic skeleton root enumerated NDIS 6 Ethernet emulating driver via the BTH\MS_BTHPAN id, it is not displayed in the Network Connections folder. Any random id in the INF works alright on the other hand with no other changes to either the binary or the INF. Note that the driver does not necessarily need to be installed onto its genuine PDO for the failure to be observed: root enumerated device suffers from the same deficiency.

Nice having knowledgeable friends, :slight_smile:
-Ilya

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
xxxxx@microsoft.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 16:52 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

(Why talk to Microsoft when you can enlist the aid of 1000 of your best friends
on OSR NTDEV?)

As Dave said, NCF_HIDDEN devices will be hidden (surprise!). Other reasons a
device will be hidden from this UI:

  • Its INF file doesn’t list the network adapter as having ndis5 or (on Win7)
    Flpp4/Flpp6 UpperRange (older OSes had more options here, like the venerable
    FDDI)
  • Device has a CM_PROB_XXX code (besides merely being CM_PROB_DISABLED)
  • Network interface is not properly registered with INetCfg (check that it can
    be enumerated through INetCfg::EnumComponents)
  • Device can’t be enumerated through HrSetupDiGetClassDevs(&GUID_DEVCLASS_NET,
    …, DIGCF_PRESENT, …).
    There’s also some additional hoops to jump through if you are a WLAN (or more
    exotically… Bluetooth and IrDA) device-- are you?

I would double-check the NCF_HIDDEN bit since it’s so easy to investigate. Find
the property store under

HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class{4D36E972-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318
}<some number> ! Characteristics
and verify that bit 0x0008 is clear. While you’re there, verify that there is a
convincing-looking GUID under the REG_SZ value NetCfgInstanceId.

The Network Connections service does not, as far as I know, special-case any
PNPIDs. My guess is actually on INetCfg weirdness. But usermode is a scary
place, so I really can’t claim that my guesses carry any expertise.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
xxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 11:42 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

Appreciate a prompt reply, Dave. No, just the NCF_VIRTUAL is listed in
Characteristics.

I’ve now isolated the issue to a particular hardware id. If I employ any other
id, the connection is properly displayed. This is a replacement for the inbox
network driver (blessed by MSFT but that’s a long story) so the use of MSFT id
is desirable. That id apparently triggers special processing by the Network
Connections service.

Time to talk to MSFT.

Many thanks,

Ilya Faenson
Rockville, MD USA

All of which reminds me that wanting to make hidden one of a set of
otherwise identical network interfaces (same PnP IDs) is not well
documented, as in not documented at all. If anyone has a good solution
that works for XP - WIN7 I’d love to know what it is.

Mark Roddy

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Jeffrey Tippet
wrote:
> (Why talk to Microsoft when you can enlist the aid of 1000 of your best friends on OSR NTDEV?)
>
> As Dave said, NCF_HIDDEN devices will be hidden (surprise!). ?Other reasons a device will be hidden from this UI:
> - ?Its INF file doesn’t list the network adapter as having ndis5 or (on Win7) Flpp4/Flpp6 UpperRange (older OSes had more options here, like the venerable FDDI)
> - ?Device has a CM_PROB_XXX code (besides merely being CM_PROB_DISABLED)
> - ?Network interface is not properly registered with INetCfg (check that it can be enumerated through INetCfg::EnumComponents)
> - ?Device can’t be enumerated through HrSetupDiGetClassDevs(&GUID_DEVCLASS_NET, …, DIGCF_PRESENT, …).
> There’s also some additional hoops to jump through if you are a WLAN (or more exotically… Bluetooth and IrDA) device-- are you?
>
> I would double-check the NCF_HIDDEN bit since it’s so easy to investigate. ?Find the property store under
> ? ?HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class{4D36E972-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}<some number> ! Characteristics
> and verify that bit 0x0008 is clear. ?While you’re there, verify that there is a convincing-looking GUID under the REG_SZ value NetCfgInstanceId.
>
> The Network Connections service does not, as far as I know, special-case any PNPIDs. ?My guess is actually on INetCfg weirdness. ?But usermode is a scary place, so I really can’t claim that my guesses carry any expertise.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@hotmail.com
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 11:42 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE:[ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections
>
> Appreciate a prompt reply, Dave. ?No, just the NCF_VIRTUAL is listed in Characteristics.
>
> I’ve now isolated the issue to a particular hardware id. ?If I employ any other id, the connection is properly displayed. ?This is a replacement for the inbox network driver (blessed by MSFT but that’s a long story) so the use of MSFT id is desirable. ?That id apparently triggers special processing by the Network Connections service.
>
> Time to talk to MSFT.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Ilya Faenson
> Rockville, MD USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@msn.com
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 13:52 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE: [ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections
>
> NCF_HIDDEN?
> Good Luck, Dave Cattley
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Have you tried employing an upper filter to set the NoDisplayInUI caps flag on whatever instances you want hidden, Mark? I’ve been running them on network adapters since the Win2k times. Originally just to set the SurpriseRemovalOK, but proven handy for other reasons as well. Beats patching NDIS dispatch table.

Regards,
-Ilya

xxxxx@gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 11:26 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

All of which reminds me that wanting to make hidden one of a set of
otherwise identical network interfaces (same PnP IDs) is not well
documented, as in not documented at all. If anyone has a good solution
that works for XP - WIN7 I’d love to know what it is.

Mark Roddy

I assume the adapter can be identified programmatically.

I don’t have a solution in the sense of having done it but I might approach
the issue with a co-installer (or class co-installer) that knows how to
‘identify’ the adapter to be hidden and go whack the NCF_XXXX flags in the
device software configuration.

If the ‘relationship’ that determines if the adapter is to be shown or
hidden is one associated with binding it to a particular network service,
client, or protocol, then a notify object for that bound entity could go
whack the NCF_XXX flags when the binding is enabled and unwhack them when
the binding is disabled.

Dave Cattley

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roddy
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 11:26 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: RE:[ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

All of which reminds me that wanting to make hidden one of a set of
otherwise identical network interfaces (same PnP IDs) is not well
documented, as in not documented at all. If anyone has a good solution
that works for XP - WIN7 I’d love to know what it is.

Mark Roddy

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Jeffrey Tippet
wrote:
> (Why talk to Microsoft when you can enlist the aid of 1000 of your best
friends on OSR NTDEV?)
>
> As Dave said, NCF_HIDDEN devices will be hidden (surprise!). ?Other
reasons a device will be hidden from this UI:
> - ?Its INF file doesn’t list the network adapter as having ndis5 or (on
Win7) Flpp4/Flpp6 UpperRange (older OSes had more options here, like the
venerable FDDI)
> - ?Device has a CM_PROB_XXX code (besides merely being CM_PROB_DISABLED)
> - ?Network interface is not properly registered with INetCfg (check that
it can be enumerated through INetCfg::EnumComponents)
> - ?Device can’t be enumerated through
HrSetupDiGetClassDevs(&GUID_DEVCLASS_NET, …, DIGCF_PRESENT, …).
> There’s also some additional hoops to jump through if you are a WLAN (or
more exotically… Bluetooth and IrDA) device-- are you?
>
> I would double-check the NCF_HIDDEN bit since it’s so easy to investigate.
?Find the property store under
> ?
?HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class{4D36E972-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002B
E10318}<some number> ! Characteristics
> and verify that bit 0x0008 is clear. ?While you’re there, verify that
there is a convincing-looking GUID under the REG_SZ value NetCfgInstanceId.
>
> The Network Connections service does not, as far as I know, special-case
any PNPIDs. ?My guess is actually on INetCfg weirdness. ?But usermode is a
scary place, so I really can’t claim that my guesses carry any expertise.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@hotmail.com
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 11:42 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE:[ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections
>
> Appreciate a prompt reply, Dave. ?No, just the NCF_VIRTUAL is listed in
Characteristics.
>
> I’ve now isolated the issue to a particular hardware id. ?If I employ any
other id, the connection is properly displayed. ?This is a replacement for
the inbox network driver (blessed by MSFT but that’s a long story) so the
use of MSFT id is desirable. ?That id apparently triggers special processing
by the Network Connections service.
>
> Time to talk to MSFT.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Ilya Faenson
> Rockville, MD USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
xxxxx@msn.com
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 13:52 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE: [ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections
>
> NCF_HIDDEN?
> Good Luck, Dave Cattley
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

Ah, well, that the PNPID is MS_BTHPAN is a very important detail. Yes, that guy is very much special-cased – it’s even special-cased in my head, since when you said “LAN driver”, I unconsciously dismissed the possibility that you’d be replacing *that* driver.

Since I don’t know anything about Bluetooth, I tried enumerating my own miniport with PNPID “BTH\MS_BTHPAN”. It was indeed hidden from ncpa.cpl, largely because the network connections service tries to open a handle to a kernel driver and fire down some internal BTHPAN IOCTLs.

There’s really not much you can do to get an enabled device with Microsoft’s PNPID to show up in ncpa.cpl, short of implementing all our IOCTLs. I guess you should talk to the folks at MSFT who “blessed” your architecture and re-evaluate the approach here. I’m a little bit curious why it needs to be *that* PNPID, but I’ll take your word for it that there’s a good reason.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 8:05 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

A great list of potential options, Jeffrey, thanks a lot for putting it together. Sounds like I am talking to one of my best friends at Microsoft? :slight_smile:

None of these options are applicable to this case though except possibly the INetCfg enumeration (will check that on Monday). I would however be very interested in “some additional hoops” you mention as this driver is indeed a replacement for the BTH\MS_BTHPAN. The issue seems to be clear enough: if I install a generic skeleton root enumerated NDIS 6 Ethernet emulating driver via the BTH\MS_BTHPAN id, it is not displayed in the Network Connections folder. Any random id in the INF works alright on the other hand with no other changes to either the binary or the INF. Note that the driver does not necessarily need to be installed onto its genuine PDO for the failure to be observed: root enumerated device suffers from the same deficiency.

Nice having knowledgeable friends, :slight_smile:
-Ilya

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@microsoft.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 16:52 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

(Why talk to Microsoft when you can enlist the aid of 1000 of your best friends on OSR NTDEV?)

As Dave said, NCF_HIDDEN devices will be hidden (surprise!). Other reasons a device will be hidden from this UI:

  • Its INF file doesn’t list the network adapter as having ndis5 or (on Win7)
    Flpp4/Flpp6 UpperRange (older OSes had more options here, like the venerable
    FDDI)
  • Device has a CM_PROB_XXX code (besides merely being CM_PROB_DISABLED)
  • Network interface is not properly registered with INetCfg (check that it can be enumerated through INetCfg::EnumComponents)
  • Device can’t be enumerated through HrSetupDiGetClassDevs(&GUID_DEVCLASS_NET,
    …, DIGCF_PRESENT, …).
    There’s also some additional hoops to jump through if you are a WLAN (or more exotically… Bluetooth and IrDA) device-- are you?

I would double-check the NCF_HIDDEN bit since it’s so easy to investigate. Find the property store under

HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class{4D36E972-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318
}<some number> ! Characteristics
and verify that bit 0x0008 is clear. While you’re there, verify that there is a convincing-looking GUID under the REG_SZ value NetCfgInstanceId.

The Network Connections service does not, as far as I know, special-case any PNPIDs. My guess is actually on INetCfg weirdness. But usermode is a scary place, so I really can’t claim that my guesses carry any expertise.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 11:42 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

Appreciate a prompt reply, Dave. No, just the NCF_VIRTUAL is listed in Characteristics.

I’ve now isolated the issue to a particular hardware id. If I employ any other id, the connection is properly displayed. This is a replacement for the inbox network driver (blessed by MSFT but that’s a long story) so the use of MSFT id is desirable. That id apparently triggers special processing by the Network Connections service.

Time to talk to MSFT.

Many thanks,

Ilya Faenson
Rockville, MD USA


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

That’s exactly what I suspected. Many thanks for your insights, Jeffrey!

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
xxxxx@microsoft.com
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 22:58 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] LAN driver not shown in Network Connections

Ah, well, that the PNPID is MS_BTHPAN is a very important detail. Yes, that guy
is very much special-cased – it’s even special-cased in my head, since when you
said “LAN driver”, I unconsciously dismissed the possibility that you’d be
replacing *that* driver.

Since I don’t know anything about Bluetooth, I tried enumerating my own miniport
with PNPID “BTH\MS_BTHPAN”. It was indeed hidden from ncpa.cpl, largely because
the network connections service tries to open a handle to a kernel driver and
fire down some internal BTHPAN IOCTLs.

There’s really not much you can do to get an enabled device with Microsoft’s
PNPID to show up in ncpa.cpl, short of implementing all our IOCTLs. I guess you
should talk to the folks at MSFT who “blessed” your architecture and re-evaluate
the approach here. I’m a little bit curious why it needs to be *that* PNPID,
but I’ll take your word for it that there’s a good reason.

That is more or less what I do, however in particular on XP doing this
routinely craps out various third party software (particularly vpn
software). It appears to work fine on Win7.

Mark Roddy

On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 11:54 AM, wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Have you tried employing an upper filter to set the NoDisplayInUI caps flag on whatever instances you want hidden, Mark? ?I’ve been running them on network adapters since the Win2k times. ?Originally just to set the SurpriseRemovalOK, but proven handy for other reasons as well. ?Beats patching NDIS dispatch table.
>
> Regards,
> ?-Ilya
>
> xxxxx@gmail.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 11:26 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE: LAN driver not shown in Network Connections
>
> All of which reminds me that wanting to make hidden one of a set of
> otherwise identical network interfaces (same PnP IDs) is not well
> documented, as in not documented at all. If anyone has a good solution
> that works for XP - WIN7 I’d love to know what it is.
>
>
> Mark Roddy
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>