>restrictions are the key to Apple’s success on the market. Now there is a complete U-turn of opinion. Bizarre…
Depends on what policies. We were IIRC speaking about X11 and its lack of policies.
If we are speaking on UI policies - then yes. If we are speaking about software restriction policies - then sorry no.
–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
Cay Bremer wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 04:07:13 +0200, wrote:
>> if(!(proc = GetProcAddress(kernel32,procname))) {
>> apierror();
>> return;
>> }
>> if(!(CreateRemoteThread(hProcId,NULL,0,proc,ipbase,0,NULL))) {
>> apierror();
>> return;
>> }
> Sorry for going on topic, but I’d personally feel uneasy about retrieving
> the address of a system function in one process and then assuming it to be
> the same in another one as this relies on an ASLR implementation detail
> that might, however unlikely, change in future versions.
In the general case, you are exactly correct, and I would be very uneasy
about this. However, kernel32 is a special case – it gets loaded even
before the executable for the process itself. It is kernel32 that
manages the loading of the executable and the start of the process.
Further, for performance reasons, I didn’t think system DLLs were
subject to ASLR. That would undo all the benefits of binding.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
> about this. However, kernel32 is a special case – it gets loaded even
before the executable for the process itself. It is kernel32 that
manages the loading of the executable and the start of the process.
Relocations and dependent DLL loads are done by ntdll.dll
Further, for performance reasons, I didn’t think system DLLs were
subject to ASLR.
Am I wrong that ASLR is mainly for the system DLLs?
–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
I would certainly think so - the major point is so that it’s harder to get
the addresses of things like ‘GetProcAddress().’
mm
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 1:18 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] How to set other threads to the alertable state
about this. However, kernel32 is a special case – it gets loaded even
before the executable for the process itself. It is kernel32 that
manages the loading of the executable and the start of the process.
Relocations and dependent DLL loads are done by ntdll.dll
Further, for performance reasons, I didn’t think system DLLs were
subject to ASLR.
Am I wrong that ASLR is mainly for the system DLLs?
–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Hello,
I understand that ASLR is used for both system + user dll’s starting with vista.
And with every boot Load address is different.
Thanks,
–rc
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Tim Roberts wrote:
> Cay Bremer wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 04:07:13 +0200, wrote:
>>> if(!(proc = GetProcAddress(kernel32,procname))) {
>>> apierror();
>>> return;
>>> }
>>> if(!(CreateRemoteThread(hProcId,NULL,0,proc,ipbase,0,NULL))) {
>>> apierror();
>>> return;
>>> }
>> Sorry for going on topic, but I’d personally feel uneasy about retrieving
>> the address of a system function in one process and then assuming it to be
>> the same in another one as this relies on an ASLR implementation detail
>> that might, however unlikely, change in future versions.
>
> In the general case, you are exactly correct, and I would be very uneasy
> about this. However, kernel32 is a special case – it gets loaded even
> before the executable for the process itself. It is kernel32 that
> manages the loading of the executable and the start of the process.
> Further, for performance reasons, I didn’t think system DLLs were
> subject to ASLR. That would undo all the benefits of binding.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
IIRC ASLR was discussed here once, and what was told by MS’s people is:
a) ASLR cannot load the same DLL to different base addresses in different processes. Only the usual relocation can do this.
b) the base address of ASLRed DLL is thus chosen on its first load, which, for system DLLs, means - once per boot.
c) ASLR is done by applying the relocations to the code section pages inside Mm as a post-processing step for paging IO reads from the disk file, so, the memory pages mapped to the file always contain ASLRed code.
–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
“Rudra ठाकुर” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
Hello,
I understand that ASLR is used for both system + user dll’s starting with vista.
And with every boot Load address is different.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/michael_howard/archive/2006/05/26/address-space-layout-randomization-in-windows-vista.aspx
Thanks,
–rc
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Tim Roberts wrote:
> Cay Bremer wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 04:07:13 +0200, wrote:
>>> if(!(proc = GetProcAddress(kernel32,procname))) {
>>> apierror();
>>> return;
>>> }
>>> if(!(CreateRemoteThread(hProcId,NULL,0,proc,ipbase,0,NULL))) {
>>> apierror();
>>> return;
>>> }
>> Sorry for going on topic, but I’d personally feel uneasy about retrieving
>> the address of a system function in one process and then assuming it to be
>> the same in another one as this relies on an ASLR implementation detail
>> that might, however unlikely, change in future versions.
>
> In the general case, you are exactly correct, and I would be very uneasy
> about this. However, kernel32 is a special case – it gets loaded even
> before the executable for the process itself. It is kernel32 that
> manages the loading of the executable and the start of the process.
> Further, for performance reasons, I didn’t think system DLLs were
> subject to ASLR. That would undo all the benefits of binding.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
> My kids doing word processing and surfing the internet on their
little laptops at home don’t need to debug their own or anyone
elses processes though (at least not yetso if such isolation
made their processes safer from malware and other nasties then
bring it on.
It would make you safer from malware the same way taking away your bottled water at an airport security checkpoint makes you safer from terrorists. There are plenty of other ways to achieve the same end result, and malware writers (or terrorists) will just switch to one of those methods.
I’ll turn off such isolation on my PC when I need to do debugging
etc, fully understanding the risks.
On several occasions in the past I’ve had to debug things on production servers. People running these environments also understand the risks, so if I told them I need to install a kernel driver on their machine (as opposed to simply xcopy’ing cdb.exe and a few other files) they wouldn’t let me anywhere near it.
This happens every time people try to erect these artificial roadblocks (“let’s restrict feature X to administrators!”) that don’t correspond to a real security boundary. They don’t make the system more secure, they just cause users/programs to run with high privileges where otherwise they could have been using a limited account. The net result is more exposure and less security.
>…these artificial roadblocks …they just cause users/programs to run
with high privileges…<
I concur. All my computers have had un-WHQL-ed drivers installed on them. I
have to as most of my hardware tools (pro audio i/o, flash blasters,
debuggers etc) require me to accept the risk of running them. I am betting
that most users have accepted at least one un-WHQL-ed driver, and therefore
compromised their OS.
Given what I read on this list, I shudder at the hacks that may be attached
to my Windows kernel.
Of course, maybe I am wrong in assuming that WHQL == safe. Perhaps ANY non
MS driver is a risk.
This site seems rather anti UMDF, but it seems that until all non MS drivers
can be UM this elephant in the Windows security room had better not be
mentioned.
M.
>>>>>>>
----- Original Message -----
From: Pavel Lebedynskiy
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 6:11 AM
Subject: RE: RE:[ntdev] How to set other threads to the alertable state
My kids doing word processing and surfing the internet on their
little laptops at home don’t need to debug their own or anyone
elses processes though (at least not yet
made their processes safer from malware and other nasties then
bring it on.
It would make you safer from malware the same way taking away your bottled
water at an airport security checkpoint makes you safer from terrorists.
There are plenty of other ways to achieve the same end result, and malware
writers (or terrorists) will just switch to one of those methods.
I’ll turn off such isolation on my PC when I need to do debugging
etc, fully understanding the risks.
On several occasions in the past I’ve had to debug things on production
servers. People running these environments also understand the risks, so if
I told them I need to install a kernel driver on their machine (as opposed
to simply xcopy’ing cdb.exe and a few other files) they wouldn’t let me
anywhere near it.
This happens every time people try to erect these artificial roadblocks
(“let’s restrict feature X to administrators!”) that don’t correspond to a
real security boundary. They don’t make the system more secure, they just
cause users/programs to run with high privileges where otherwise they could
have been using a limited account. The net result is more exposure and less
security.
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
When I hear that Windows is “unsecure” and the “other” *X based OSs are “secure”, I respond that those people don’t know neither Windows nor Linux/OSX/whatever.
Current Windows security model is fundamentally the same as Linux. I challenge anyone to name a type of exploit that Windows is fundamentally prone to, and Linux is fundamentally immune.
But then there are such things as clueless users, easily falling to installing and running all kinds of non-kosher stuff they encounter. Windows XP gave them Administrative rights by default, but there were not a slightest hint of warning given that they better not be Administrators. 99.9% of users never knew any better. This is why Windows security reputation is in the toilet, and this damage may ultimately be never repaired. Not because there was no security, but because running with administrator privileges ultimately suppressed any protection there was.
Pavel: the customers who won’t let you install a driver - they know what they’re doing. Millions of users don’t have a slightest idea. They will install whatever they’re told by an unsrupulous flashing webpage that tells them “Your computer is at risk”. Of course, now it is. If such crap were forcibly sandboxed, those exploits would not do much damage.
Mike Kempf: WHQL is not 100% guarantee the driver is absolutely stable. Heck, some inbox drivers have bugs. Some drivers provided by Microsoft have bugs. But WHQL guarantees the driver passes some baseline checks. I saw some opensource drivers and they were as fragile as a frozen soap bubble. I would not let them anywhere near my computer. Many professionally written drivers are almost as fragile. But I am an expert. Millions of users are not. They are given administrator powers, but the’re not qualified. They will install anything they’re told, their computer will crash, and they’ll blame it on Microsoft Windows. Next time they’ll buy Apple computer/iPad.
Apple is little different though. It is based on Mach and BSD. The kernel address space is different, IIRC. So there is some kernel level safety, but IPC is expensive.
Is apple secured from malware? Of course not…
So the comparison really should stick to Windows and Linux, Linux is not secured either. Because the fundamental address space ( usr / krnl ) is sort of same.
-pro
On Apr 5, 2011, at 7:41 AM, xxxxx@broadcom.com wrote:
When I hear that Windows is “unsecure” and the “other” *X based OSs are “secure”, I respond that those people don’t know neither Windows nor Linux/OSX/whatever.
Current Windows security model is fundamentally the same as Linux. I challenge anyone to name a type of exploit that Windows is fundamentally prone to, and Linux is fundamentally immune.
But then there are such things as clueless users, easily falling to installing and running all kinds of non-kosher stuff they encounter. Windows XP gave them Administrative rights by default, but there were not a slightest hint of warning given that they better not be Administrators. 99.9% of users never knew any better. This is why Windows security reputation is in the toilet, and this damage may ultimately be never repaired. Not because there was no security, but because running with administrator privileges ultimately suppressed any protection there was.
Pavel: the customers who won’t let you install a driver - they know what they’re doing. Millions of users don’t have a slightest idea. They will install whatever they’re told by an unsrupulous flashing webpage that tells them “Your computer is at risk”. Of course, now it is. If such crap were forcibly sandboxed, those exploits would not do much damage.
Mike Kempf: WHQL is not 100% guarantee the driver is absolutely stable. Heck, some inbox drivers have bugs. Some drivers provided by Microsoft have bugs. But WHQL guarantees the driver passes some baseline checks. I saw some opensource drivers and they were as fragile as a frozen soap bubble. I would not let them anywhere near my computer. Many professionally written drivers are almost as fragile. But I am an expert. Millions of users are not. They are given administrator powers, but the’re not qualified. They will install anything they’re told, their computer will crash, and they’ll blame it on Microsoft Windows. Next time they’ll buy Apple computer/iPad.
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminarsTo unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Even worse - let’s prevent Administrators from doing ‘x.’
mm
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Pavel Lebedynskiy
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 1:11 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: RE:[ntdev] How to set other threads to the alertable state
My kids doing word processing and surfing the internet on their
little laptops at home don’t need to debug their own or anyone
elses processes though (at least not yet
made their processes safer from malware and other nasties then
bring it on.
It would make you safer from malware the same way taking away your bottled
water at an airport security checkpoint makes you safer from terrorists.
There are plenty of other ways to achieve the same end result, and malware
writers (or terrorists) will just switch to one of those methods.
I’ll turn off such isolation on my PC when I need to do debugging
etc, fully understanding the risks.
On several occasions in the past I’ve had to debug things on production
servers. People running these environments also understand the risks, so if
I told them I need to install a kernel driver on their machine (as opposed
to simply xcopy’ing cdb.exe and a few other files) they wouldn’t let me
anywhere near it.
This happens every time people try to erect these artificial roadblocks
(“let’s restrict feature X to administrators!”) that don’t correspond to a
real security boundary. They don’t make the system more secure, they just
cause users/programs to run with high privileges where otherwise they could
have been using a limited account. The net result is more exposure and less
security.
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> If such crap were forcibly sandboxed, those exploits would not do much damage.
I’m not arguing against sandboxing/isolation. What I’m saying is that “preventing all cross-process memory access in user space” is not even close to sandboxing. It would break some legitimate uses like debugging, and have no effect on the ability of malware to do damage.
I think that what we’re learning in the past few years is that we - the engineers are the 1% that actually exercise the flexibility of a PC running an OS like Windows or Linux. The other 99% just want to ‘use their internets’ to send email and browse the web, and the flexibility actually gets in the way in the form of malware and misconfiguration. These people will only utilize a function if it comes shrink wrapped and with a name - they’ll even pay a monthly fee for it. 5 years ago I was streaming Red Sox games to my Treo in WA from my basement in MA using a tuner card, WM Encoder, and media player - but I’m in the 1%. The other 99% had to wait for their mobile provider to come out with “video streaming” and pay a monthly fee for it (even though they already pay for an internet connection on their phone - that is just crazy!).
I still ask people WHY they’re so excited about Apple products like the iPhone, iPod or iPad - and they can’t really give an answer to which I can’t reply “well I can do that with my WM6.5 phone, or in Windows”. The fact is that it doesn’t matter - people will buy functions before they’ll figure out how to use something that is infinitely configurable.
Mike Kemp wrote:
Of course, maybe I am wrong in assuming that WHQL == safe. Perhaps ANY non
MS driver is a risk.
Yes, you are wrong. Remember that WHQL never runs the drivers. They
scan the logs, sign the CAT file, and return it. If a WHQLed driver is
found to be malicious, Microsoft can issue a revocation for that
certificate, but that only prevents loading on 64-bit systems.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
> I still ask people WHY they’re so excited about Apple products like the
iPhone, iPod or iPad - and they can’t really give an answer to which I
can’t reply “well I can do that with my WM6.5 phone, or in Windows”. The
fact is that it doesn’t matter - people will buy functions before they’ll
figure out how to use something that is infinitely configurable.
Well, they have aesthetic value
I like the keyboard when calling, I hate it when SMS-ing. But then again,
it is already a falling star. Android is picking up, next Blackberry and
WinPhone to pick up
iPad is a different story. I never used it, but it is a darn competitor of
Amazon, and then to the tablets.
Why do people like the porsche 911, I still do but don’t own it. Simple it
has aesthetic value, maneuvering is excellent.
Why people like designer clothing? …
Sometime it is not enough to have all the functions in a jumbo-bambo way !!!
-pro
xxxxx@garlic.com wrote:
> I still ask people WHY they’re so excited about Apple products like the
> iPhone, iPod or iPad - and they can’t really give an answer to which I
> can’t reply “well I can do that with my WM6.5 phone, or in Windows”.
I can answer that.
I’ve always been an Apple basher, mostly because I am allergic to hype.
Two years ago, my wife bought me an iPhone (against my will). I have to
say, with a begrudging nod, that I now “get it”. This device is
magically easy to use. There is never any doubt about what to do next,
or which button to push, or which buttons do what. The darn thing is
just natural. Having long struggled with designing my own user
interfaces, I now have a great deal of respect for those dudes in Cupertino.
My wife got a Windows 6 phone for herself, and I was completely lost. I
had no clue where to go next, or how to bring up a menu, or even how to
get back to the dial pad. We returned it. If the manual is more than a
pamphlet, the phone has failed.
I like the keyboard when calling, I hate it when SMS-ing. But then again,
it is already a falling star. Android is picking up, next Blackberry and
WinPhone to pick up
Are you saying the iPhone is a falling star? I think you’re wrong.
Android already has twice the market share of the iPhone, and I think
that is likely to continue for quite a while. Windows is likely to suck
up the share currently held by Symbian and Blackberry, but that’s just
scrambling after the leftovers.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
@Prokash:
iDevices are not like Porshe with a stick shift. They are like a Corolla which does 99% of what you need, and you don’t have to learn driving a stick. It does corners well enough, if you’re not a poser that wants to make them at 40 mph. A 15 yo girl can drive Corolla on a first driving lesson. And FWIW, old Porshe 911 doesn’t even look good, though it’s in the eye of the beholder.
While it certainly would make no sense to our (kernel dev’s) our usage
model, given that we are a tiny percentage, we do still however need to be
able to faithfully debug things, so there has to be facilities for that that
are usable without disabling all of the security, et. c. That’s the real
trick. Just disabling all of those features when a kernel debugger is
attached (like PatchGuard) isn’t a faithful model of the system.
I would certainly agree that user’s don’t care and shouldn’t care about any
of this, but it’s their applications (in my opinion) that are the ones that
are ‘secured’ and at issue. I mean, the 64 bit build of IE is pretty close
to unusable with its default security settings (at least on the server
builds), and then there’s IE protected mode, et. c. Also, because the
attempt is to secure those applications with the least intrusion, I think
that it’s those applications that really exercise the PC. Our stuff does to
in different ways, but that’s not the stuff that’s usually at issue, in my
opinion.
Also, I’m frequently surprised to see the wonky stuff that popular
applications do - check images for symbols, et. c.
I guess what I’m saying is that when plugins and so forth are permuted
across the corporate user base, with their particular ways of using them,
I’d wager that that sandboxing doesn’t wouldn’t very well without a policy
change, retraining, retooling, et. c.
mm
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
xxxxx@oracle.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 12:55 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] How to set other threads to the alertable state
I think that what we’re learning in the past few years is that we - the
engineers are the 1% that actually exercise the flexibility of a PC running
an OS like Windows or Linux. The other 99% just want to ‘use their
internets’ to send email and browse the web, and the flexibility actually
gets in the way in the form of malware and misconfiguration. These people
will only utilize a function if it comes shrink wrapped and with a name -
they’ll even pay a monthly fee for it. 5 years ago I was streaming Red Sox
games to my Treo in WA from my basement in MA using a tuner card, WM
Encoder, and media player - but I’m in the 1%. The other 99% had to wait
for their mobile provider to come out with “video streaming” and pay a
monthly fee for it (even though they already pay for an internet connection
on their phone - that is just crazy!).
I still ask people WHY they’re so excited about Apple products like the
iPhone, iPod or iPad - and they can’t really give an answer to which I can’t
reply “well I can do that with my WM6.5 phone, or in Windows”. The fact is
that it doesn’t matter - people will buy functions before they’ll figure out
how to use something that is infinitely configurable.
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that Windows Phone (or whatever it’s
called this particular second) is going to ‘suck up the share held by
Symbian and BlackBerry?’ Actually, I’m just curious about BlackBerry -
Nokia killing Symbian all by itself.
I don’t really know much about this issue, but there certainly seem to be a
lot of BlackBerry’s out there, and moreover there are a lot of big companies
that have large investments in the infrastructure/security to support
BlackBerry’s.
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Tim Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 2:22 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] How to set other threads to the alertable state
xxxxx@garlic.com wrote:
> I still ask people WHY they’re so excited about Apple products like the
> iPhone, iPod or iPad - and they can’t really give an answer to which I
> can’t reply “well I can do that with my WM6.5 phone, or in Windows”.
I can answer that.
I’ve always been an Apple basher, mostly because I am allergic to hype.
Two years ago, my wife bought me an iPhone (against my will). I have to
say, with a begrudging nod, that I now “get it”. This device is
magically easy to use. There is never any doubt about what to do next,
or which button to push, or which buttons do what. The darn thing is
just natural. Having long struggled with designing my own user
interfaces, I now have a great deal of respect for those dudes in Cupertino.
My wife got a Windows 6 phone for herself, and I was completely lost. I
had no clue where to go next, or how to bring up a menu, or even how to
get back to the dial pad. We returned it. If the manual is more than a
pamphlet, the phone has failed.
I like the keyboard when calling, I hate it when SMS-ing. But then again,
it is already a falling star. Android is picking up, next Blackberry and
WinPhone to pick up
Are you saying the iPhone is a falling star? I think you’re wrong.
Android already has twice the market share of the iPhone, and I think
that is likely to continue for quite a while. Windows is likely to suck
up the share currently held by Symbian and Blackberry, but that’s just
scrambling after the leftovers.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
I still have a Newton on the shelf somewhere… Also a “Fat MAC” and
original Macintosh programmer’s documentation.
Long ago I wrote software for the Mac. I left the Apple fold for a number of
reasons. On being that when they achieved a modicum of success they began
incorporating software that was initially third-party into the OS in a
pretty wicked way. Basically, they closed the door on software developers
except for games and other fairly inconsequential stuff (IMHO).
Humm, sound familiar???
Anyway, I suspect that the iPhone and iPad are really great products! But my
unjustified prejudice will keep me from buying one. I will keep my DroidX
(Unless MS gives me a WM6.5 phone…) and wait for XOOM Wi-Fi only to come
down to reasonable price.
Thomas F. Divine
From: “Tim Roberts”
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 2:21 PM
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Subject: Re: [ntdev] How to set other threads to the alertable state
> xxxxx@garlic.com wrote:
>>> I still ask people WHY they’re so excited about Apple products like the
>>> iPhone, iPod or iPad - and they can’t really give an answer to which I
>>> can’t reply “well I can do that with my WM6.5 phone, or in Windows”.
>
> I can answer that.
>
> I’ve always been an Apple basher, mostly because I am allergic to hype.
> Two years ago, my wife bought me an iPhone (against my will). I have to
> say, with a begrudging nod, that I now “get it”. This device is
> magically easy to use. There is never any doubt about what to do next,
> or which button to push, or which buttons do what. The darn thing is
> just natural. Having long struggled with designing my own user
> interfaces, I now have a great deal of respect for those dudes in
> Cupertino.
>
> My wife got a Windows 6 phone for herself, and I was completely lost. I
> had no clue where to go next, or how to bring up a menu, or even how to
> get back to the dial pad. We returned it. If the manual is more than a
> pamphlet, the phone has failed.
>
>> I like the keyboard when calling, I hate it when SMS-ing. But then again,
>> it is already a falling star. Android is picking up, next Blackberry and
>> WinPhone to pick up
>
> Are you saying the iPhone is a falling star? I think you’re wrong.
> Android already has twice the market share of the iPhone, and I think
> that is likely to continue for quite a while. Windows is likely to suck
> up the share currently held by Symbian and Blackberry, but that’s just
> scrambling after the leftovers.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>
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