Does there exist any kernel routine which my driver can use to determine the above?
from winintrnls, there are some kernel variable which can be used,
MmPagedPoolStart
MmPagedPoolEnd
also I read this on web sometime back that same can be retrieved using
NtQuerySystemInformation() SystemPerformanceInformation,
Thanks
Aditya
Why do you believe that you need to do this?
On some systems, it may not even be possible to define clearly what the “maximum” paged pool size is, due to a dependency on how other resource consumers (i.e. non-paged pool) grow their usage for a particular boot.
Even if such a routine existed, it would of course not be a guarantee about how much contiguous memory you could allocate.
- S
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@rediffmail.com
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 01:11
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] How to determine the maximum and currently-used paged pool size
Does there exist any kernel routine which my driver can use to determine the above?
—
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These are becoming totally dynamic as Windows moves forward so even if you
get it working today, it will not tommorrow. Why in the world would you
want this in the first place, even if you knew you have no control over the
other drivers of the system so the available pool is always changing.
–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr
wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Does there exist any kernel routine which my driver can use to determine
> the above?
>
>
>
>
>
> Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4078 (20090515)
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4079 (20090515)
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
Yes, they are dynamic. Knowing the instantaneous value of any volatile values aren’t very useful. However, from the instantaneous values, one could compute the time derivative of the measurable quantity which is the fundamental building block of differential equations. Dynamic systems are naturally described by differential equations. Some complex optimization algorithms I did in the past are modeled in DE. I didn’t really appreciate the hard time my professors gave me on Mathematical Physics and Advanced Engineering Mathematics back in the school days until I learned how to use them to solve complex problems in my real world designs.
Calvin Guan
Broadcom Corp.
Connecting Everything(r)
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 7:33 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] How to determine the maximum and currently-used paged pool size
These are becoming totally dynamic as Windows moves forward so even if you
get it working today, it will not tommorrow. Why in the world would you
want this in the first place, even if you knew you have no control over the
other drivers of the system so the available pool is always changing.
–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr
wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Does there exist any kernel routine which my driver can use to determine
> the above?
>
>
>
>
>
> Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4078 (20090515)
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4079 (20090515)
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Don’t forget to take a look at the following -
-
Pure Math by Hardy. It has one of the best treatment of elementary
function theory, including one of the best treatment of limit theories ( the
basic of non linear continuous math - in one word calculus ). This part with
taylor series in real or complex variable makes numercial analysis so easily
understandable
-
Mathematical Physics by Courant and Hilbert. One of the classic of all
time.
Good lord, you can use those for your design !. I only refer to them when I
look at some of the codec implementations. Really good for you.
Well, as if I’ve to sign something !
Prokash Sinha
http://prokash.squarespace.com
Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.
----- Original Message -----
From: “Calvin Guan (Business Guest)”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] How to determine the maximum and currently-used
paged pool size
Yes, they are dynamic. Knowing the instantaneous value of any volatile
values aren’t very useful. However, from the instantaneous values, one could
compute the time derivative of the measurable quantity which is the
fundamental building block of differential equations. Dynamic systems are
naturally described by differential equations. Some complex optimization
algorithms I did in the past are modeled in DE. I didn’t really appreciate
the hard time my professors gave me on Mathematical Physics and Advanced
Engineering Mathematics back in the school days until I learned how to use
them to solve complex problems in my real world designs.
Calvin Guan
Broadcom Corp.
Connecting Everything(r)
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 7:33 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] How to determine the maximum and currently-used paged
pool size
These are becoming totally dynamic as Windows moves forward so even if you
get it working today, it will not tommorrow. Why in the world would you
want this in the first place, even if you knew you have no control over the
other drivers of the system so the available pool is always changing.
–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr
wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Does there exist any kernel routine which my driver can use to determine
> the above?
>
>
>
>
>
> Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4078 (20090515)
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4079 (20090515)
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
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Pro,
Thank you for pointing out the first one which I didn’t know about.
Courant and Hilbert’s is my “bed time story” book-:). I only wish I knew German so that I can read the original to make sure nothing is missing while translating to English. Also, some “physimatics” books from Russian are highly rated but can’t find their English version.
I think the mathematics education in America falls behind in general. In some Asian countries, Calculus I is in standard curriculum for high school kids.
In engineering field,
“Very few practicing engineers perform any kind of physical and mathematical modeling. Mathematics is a subject that is not viewed as enhancing one’s engineering skills but as an obstacle to avoid. Very few engineers have balance between analysis and hardware essential for success in Mechatronics.” By Kevin C. Craig, PhD, Professor of Mechanical Engineering, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute “Modeling Analysis and Control Introduction”.
Well, I’m sending my kids to math camp this weekend:)
Calvin Guan
Broadcom Corp.
Connecting Everything(r)
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Prokash Sinha
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 5:51 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: Re:[ntdev] How to determine the maximum and currently-used paged pool size
Don’t forget to take a look at the following -
-
Pure Math by Hardy. It has one of the best treatment of elementary
function theory, including one of the best treatment of limit theories ( the
basic of non linear continuous math - in one word calculus ). This part with
taylor series in real or complex variable makes numercial analysis so easily
understandable -
Mathematical Physics by Courant and Hilbert. One of the classic of all
time.
Good lord, you can use those for your design !. I only refer to them when I
look at some of the codec implementations. Really good for you.
Well, as if I’ve to sign something !
Prokash Sinha
http://prokash.squarespace.com
Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.
----- Original Message -----
From: “Calvin Guan (Business Guest)”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] How to determine the maximum and currently-used
paged pool size
Yes, they are dynamic. Knowing the instantaneous value of any volatile
values aren’t very useful. However, from the instantaneous values, one could
compute the time derivative of the measurable quantity which is the
fundamental building block of differential equations. Dynamic systems are
naturally described by differential equations. Some complex optimization
algorithms I did in the past are modeled in DE. I didn’t really appreciate
the hard time my professors gave me on Mathematical Physics and Advanced
Engineering Mathematics back in the school days until I learned how to use
them to solve complex problems in my real world designs.
Calvin Guan
Broadcom Corp.
Connecting Everything(r)
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 7:33 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] How to determine the maximum and currently-used paged
pool size
These are becoming totally dynamic as Windows moves forward so even if you
get it working today, it will not tommorrow. Why in the world would you
want this in the first place, even if you knew you have no control over the
other drivers of the system so the available pool is always changing.
–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr
wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Does there exist any kernel routine which my driver can use to determine
> the above?
>
>
>
>
>
> Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4078 (20090515)
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4079 (20090515)
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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> However, from the instantaneous values, one could compute the time derivative of the
measurable quantity which is the fundamental building block of differential equations.
You never change, do you…
We all know that you just love calculus, but how on Earth differential equations are related to the KERNEL, i.e the place where you are supposed to do the minimum and delegate all complex processing to the UM whenever it is possible???
Dynamic systems are naturally described by differential equations. Some complex
optimization algorithms I did in the past are modeled in DE.
Did you solve these equations right in the driver code???
Anton Bassov
Oh Anton,
He is a good chip engineer and good at analog signals, so what if there is a
bit of rant. Sure it is off topic, but here in US lot of good companies
hires software engineers and drop a book “How to solve it” on their desk
they first arrive. Why do they do that???
Well, as if I’ve to sign something !
Prokash Sinha
http://prokash.squarespace.com
Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 9:06 PM
Subject: RE:[ntdev] How to determine the maximum and currently-used paged
pool size
>> However, from the instantaneous values, one could compute the time
>> derivative of the
>> measurable quantity which is the fundamental building block of
>> differential equations.
>
> You never change, do you…
>
> We all know that you just love calculus, but how on Earth differential
> equations are related to the KERNEL, i.e the place where you are supposed
> to do the minimum and delegate all complex processing to the UM whenever
> it is possible???
>
>> Dynamic systems are naturally described by differential equations. Some
>> complex
>> optimization algorithms I did in the past are modeled in DE.
>
> Did you solve these equations right in the driver code???
>
>
> Anton Bassov
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Prokash,
He is a good chip engineer and good at analog signals
I DO know that Calvin is really good hardware engineer. The only thing I am saying here is that his math-related expertize hardly applies on this particular occasion - if you start doing complex calculations in the kernel it may well happen that your “optimization” will yield exactly the opposite results, because complex algorithms tend to require a high computational effort that may easily wash away all performance benefits that you expect to gain by applying optimization…
Anton Bassov
> i.e the place where you are supposed to do the minimum and delegate all
complex processing to the UM whenever it is possible???
Elegant designs =/= computationally complex. More over, most (if not all) drivers I’ve written does have UM apps.
Did you solve these equations right in the driver code???
YES, I DID. I opt the best option whenever it’s feasible.
If an idea is implemented in UM, it’s called application; in KM, it’s called driver; in gates and transistors, it’s called hardware.
I agree I’m OT, sorry about that. But hey, it’s friday and I’ve fixed all the bugs of the week:)
Have a nice weekend!
Calvin Guan
Broadcom Corp.
Connecting Everything(r)
Points well taken Anton.
Once in a while a bit of a rant ( or just to look at things differently does
not hurt that much IMHO ) without hurting each others feeling should be
taken with high spirit!!!
But again, points well taken. Lets leave it …
-pro
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 10:58 PM, wrote:
> Prokash,
>
> > He is a good chip engineer and good at analog signals
>
> I DO know that Calvin is really good hardware engineer. The only thing I am
> saying here is that his math-related expertize hardly applies on this
> particular occasion - if you start doing complex calculations in the kernel
> it may well happen that your “optimization” will yield exactly the opposite
> results, because complex algorithms tend to require a high computational
> effort that may easily wash away all performance benefits that you expect to
> gain by applying optimization…
>
>
> Anton Bassov
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
For what it is work, old-school hardware engineering ‘thought’ is a very
good basis for good driver design.
EE’s have often had to turn complex mathematically described ‘solutions’
(aka, the estimation & detection solutions or control system Eigen
estimators or any number of other calculus based gobledygook) into *simple*
(and often quite elegant) realizations in hardware.
The analog design engineers of the 1940s and 1950s working with passive
components and vacuum tubes or at the very end of that very *small* numbers
of transistor like devices were in my opinion the apex of that art and
craft. One only needs to look at a 1960s era RCA color television,
schematic diagram and marvel at the fact that it works at all let alone
realize it is still working just fine (thanks to those incapable of
implementing digital broadcast policy) after 40 some-odd years.
These designers new their calculus and they knew used some pretty
bare-minimal and robust “think first, solder second” approaches to building
stuff that we can only marvel at.
Building drivers (and operating systems) is often a place where one does
have to solve a complex problem because of performance or other issues but
the effort to understand the principals behind the problem with a structured
(mathematical or otherwise) model usually pay off in a more complete,
correct, and robust implementation.
Note I use the work implementation and not ‘solution’. The solution is the
model & mathematics. The *an* implementation is the driver, or device, or
whatever. A sign of a poor analysis is working out the ‘solution’ in the
‘implementation space’ - aka - ship the prototype.
A good solution discovers the necessary elements required in an
implementation. A good implementation contains minimal realizations of
these elements and very little more.
I have every reason to believe that Calvin’s estimation based approach to
determining the size of paged pool would yield a very satisfactory result.
I suspect it would be not that much more state intensive nor complex than a
good ‘peak/average’ estimator typical of network (or disk) throughput
statistics - something found in kernel modes the world over (and in hardware
too).
I also agree with others whom have suggested designing a solution around
needing to know that value is of dubious merit.
What rang ‘true’ to me in the entire discussion was the hint at the often
‘lost’ approach of modeling a problem, analyzing it rigorously, and
implementing a fundamentally sound realization of the solution in software
or hardware or whatever. For that one must have a solid handle on the
tools of analysis *and* the tools used to craft the solution and use them
both correctly and appropriately.
Back under my rock …
-Dave
> I have every reason to believe that Calvin’s estimation based approach to determining the
size of paged pool would yield a very satisfactory result. I suspect it would be not that much more
state intensive nor complex than a good ‘peak/average’ estimator typical of network (or disk)
throughput statistics - something found in kernel modes the world over (and in hardware too).
Please note that the things you have mentioned don’t require solving differential equations - all they need is a relatively simple statistical analysis like calculating mean and standard deviation. Therefore, Calvin’s post made me suspect that he would rather go for something significantly more complex than that
(for example, Fourier Transform)…
Anton Bassov
Okay, I hate to see this goes on and on first because OP was really looking
for global variables that would give him an indications within the next
epoch (s)he is ready to go and grab or go and release the memory…
As few people pointed out there is no bullet proof method to do that, and I
suspect OP also does not have that requirement. Otherwise OP would have go
to the modeling it, rather than asking how it could be done by the driver.
For the sake of argument, lets say OP is in fact getting to know some
estimated value within the next epoch ( let say within 10 ms on an average
). What are the approaches … ( For now ignore the UM & KM & HW )
(1) Well, differential equations is one approach. But we need a set of
functionals that can easily form into DE and solve it by discretizing or
whatever transform you can use. Big big question is what is the functional
form to being with? I don’t have a clue …
(2) Well, it can be done by a simple statistical analysis: Mean and Sigma.
Sure but what is the sample, what is the sample distribution. Again I sure
don’t have a clue…
(3) What the problem signals to us?
A) We don’t know the shit, and it is random
B) What random? Random means nothing a functional form whose image domain is
[0, 1]
C) Anything more? Of course there is some more … It is a continuous time
and discrete state Random Process !.
D) That it?? Nope, this does not have a memory so (i) we don’t know when the
next ( + or - ) consumptions are going to be. Oh, the inter arrival time is
memory less. So it is exponential.
E) How about the payload ( + or - ) of the consumptions? Same thing as the
along the time line.
Rest we talked about in this forum before … And quite unnecessary, until
OP comes and say I want the model and say "Pro I know you did some
mathematical modeling in the past, but sure hell you are an ugly model when
I look at your face and compare with the pretty faces in the modeling
business
-pro
On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 12:17 PM, wrote:
> > I have every reason to believe that Calvin’s estimation based approach to
> determining the
> > size of paged pool would yield a very satisfactory result. I suspect it
> would be not that much more
> > state intensive nor complex than a good ‘peak/average’ estimator typical
> of network (or disk)
> > throughput statistics - something found in kernel modes the world over
> (and in hardware too).
>
>
> Please note that the things you have mentioned don’t require solving
> differential equations - all they need is a relatively simple statistical
> analysis like calculating mean and standard deviation. Therefore, Calvin’s
> post made me suspect that he would rather go for something significantly
> more complex than that
> (for example, Fourier Transform)…
>
>
> Anton Bassov
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
Let’s say the problem can be model with linear DE:
- Modeling and analysis, derivation of the deferential equation best describes the given problem.
- Solve the DE, find the Impulse Response(EE term) , or fundamental particular integral, or Green’s function (Mathematician and physicist’s term)
- Discretized the impulse response.
- establish an n-tap FIR (Finite Impulse Response) filter kernel in to an array.
- perform an discrete convolution with the sampled input and the FIR kernel.
Done.
Only step#5 is done in real time on computer. For most problem which is low freq in nature, the process is very light weight.
If one wants to use IIR (Infinity Impulse Response) filter, he can use z-transform or bilinear transform, then run the IIR for each sampled input.
None of those is computational complex. My 98 Honda Accord even has such a close-loop control system to meet the ridiculous emission regulation of the State of the People’s Republic of California.
Calvin Guan
Broadcom Corp.
Connecting Everything(r)
— On Sat, 5/16/09, xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:
> From: xxxxx@hotmail.com
> Subject: RE:[ntdev] How to determine the maximum and currently-used paged pool size
> To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
> Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 12:17 PM
> > I have every reason to believe
> that Calvin’s estimation based approach to determining the
> > size of paged pool would yield a very satisfactory
> result. I suspect it would be not that much more
> > state intensive nor complex than a good ‘peak/average’
> estimator typical of network (or disk)
> >? throughput statistics - something found in
> kernel modes the world over (and in hardware too).
>
>
> Please note that the things you have mentioned don’t
> require solving differential equations? - all they need
> is a relatively simple statistical analysis like calculating
> mean and standard deviation. Therefore, Calvin’s post made
> me suspect that he would rather go for something
> significantly more complex than that
> (for example, Fourier Transform)…
>
>
> Anton Bassov
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars
> visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online
> at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
Just to connect the dots stochastic Green’s function is what this whole
process boils down to !
Yes once the random process is fairly well definable, I know you nail it
down right there
Are you per chance had a look the Feller’s volume 2. IIRC that has touch on
this …
I’m afraid no one will hire me to do kernel work, Calvin. LOL.
Well, as if I’ve to sign something !
Prokash Sinha
http://prokash.squarespace.com
Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.
----- Original Message -----
From: “Calvin Guan”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: RE:[ntdev] How to determine the maximum and currently-used paged
pool size
Let’s say the problem can be model with linear DE:
1. Modeling and analysis, derivation of the deferential equation best
describes the given problem.
2. Solve the DE, find the Impulse Response(EE term) , or fundamental
particular integral, or Green’s function (Mathematician and physicist’s
term)
3) Discretized the impulse response.
4) establish an n-tap FIR (Finite Impulse Response) filter kernel in to an
array.
5) perform an discrete convolution with the sampled input and the FIR
kernel.
Done.
Only step#5 is done in real time on computer. For most problem which is low
freq in nature, the process is very light weight.
If one wants to use IIR (Infinity Impulse Response) filter, he can use
z-transform or bilinear transform, then run the IIR for each sampled input.
None of those is computational complex. My 98 Honda Accord even has such a
close-loop control system to meet the ridiculous emission regulation of the
State of the People’s Republic of California.
Calvin Guan
Broadcom Corp.
Connecting Everything(r)
— On Sat, 5/16/09, xxxxx@hotmail.com
wrote:
> From: xxxxx@hotmail.com
> Subject: RE:[ntdev] How to determine the maximum and currently-used paged
> pool size
> To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
> Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 12:17 PM
> > I have every reason to believe
> that Calvin’s estimation based approach to determining the
> > size of paged pool would yield a very satisfactory
> result. I suspect it would be not that much more
> > state intensive nor complex than a good ‘peak/average’
> estimator typical of network (or disk)
> > throughput statistics - something found in
> kernel modes the world over (and in hardware too).
>
>
> Please note that the things you have mentioned don’t
> require solving differential equations - all they need
> is a relatively simple statistical analysis like calculating
> mean and standard deviation. Therefore, Calvin’s post made
> me suspect that he would rather go for something
> significantly more complex than that
> (for example, Fourier Transform)…
>
>
> Anton Bassov
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars
> visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online
> at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Please note that the things you have mentioned don’t require solving
differential equations - all they need is a relatively simple statistical
analysis like calculating mean and standard deviation.
Someone can simplistically apply what they believe to be a good 1st order
linear approximation to what they think is estimating the mean and/or std
deviation. The problem is that these ‘simple statistical analysis’ derived
things do not always work that well for dynamic prediction, discrete data
sets, and finite time (or limited time) observation.
Sometimes they do, sometimes they do not. Knowing when requires knowing
more and choosing wisely. Often the choice is to choose the simpler
approach. But picking it simply because it is simple (or the only one
known) is not a ‘sound’ choice. So it may well take a 3rd order Dif-E-Q
solution to show that the residual value of the additional orders is
contributing an insignificant set of terms to the solution. But you can’t
know that without asking the question and solving the model. That was my
only point. Not that one or the other ‘answer’ was more meritorious.
Thanks,
-Dave
+1
Bravo, David.
This is engineering; not QBA.
mm
> Someone can simplistically apply what they believe to be a good 1st order
linear approximation to what they think is estimating the mean and/or std
deviation. The problem is that these ‘simple statistical analysis’
derived
things do not always work that well for dynamic prediction, discrete data
sets, and finite time (or limited time) observation.Sometimes they do, sometimes they do not. Knowing when requires knowing
more and choosing wisely. Often the choice is to choose the simpler
approach. But picking it simply because it is simple (or the only one
known) is not a ‘sound’ choice. So it may well take a 3rd order Dif-E-Q
solution to show that the residual value of the additional orders is
contributing an insignificant set of terms to the solution. But you can’t
know that without asking the question and solving the model. That was my
only point. Not that one or the other ‘answer’ was more meritorious.
But don’t forget that, just by observing you would not be able to come up
with a set of kth degree differential equations. That is what the biggest
problem here. Solving efficiently or not comes later. And if the tolerance
limit is meaningfully set, I don’t think you will have a set of differential
equations…
It is a random phenomena, you can’t have a representable set of equation
unless you capture the random processes involved in it. There is no trend at
all, so any extrapolation would be meaning less.
-pro
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