Hello Windows,
Anyone use gnu c compiler fo developing kernel mode drivers?
http://gcc.gnu.org
There are ddk headers in the package and much more better compiler
with a good support. Can you help me with information how to?
–
Best regards,
Andriy mailto:kvazar@ua.fm
Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use it … Would you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
----- Original Message -----
From: “Andriy Podanenko”
To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 8:36 AM
Subject: [ntdev] gcc
> Hello Windows,
>
> Anyone use gnu c compiler fo developing kernel mode drivers?
> http://gcc.gnu.org
> There are ddk headers in the package and much more better compiler
> with a good support. Can you help me with information how to?
>
> –
> Best regards,
> Andriy mailto:kvazar@ua.fm
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@compaqnet.be
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
Let me add a bit to the point made by Christiaan.Ghijselinck. Yes, you
can build with just about anything that works for you. But if you expect
to get support from Microsoft, you may encounter trouble.
Consider the situation from the point of view of an OS provider like
Microsoft (or IBM or Sun): The provider has limited resources and cannot
support every permutation of software. That said, if you or anyone else
can make a convincing case of commercial value, the provider might be
persuaded to support another build environment. But that’s a long shot.
Andriy Podanenko wrote:
There are ddk headers in the package and much more better compiler
with a good support. Can you help me with information how to?
–
If replying by e-mail, please remove “nospam.” from the address.
James Antognini
Windows DDK MVP
On Fri, 2003-08-08 at 01:36, Andriy Podanenko wrote:
Anyone use gnu c compiler fo developing kernel mode drivers?
http://gcc.gnu.org
There’s a port of gcc called mingw32 that /could/ be used, but it’s not
complete. One major problem is a lack of SEH support. Someone on the
ReactOS project has a partially-working SEH implementation for it, but
it’s nowhere near production-quality.
There are ddk headers in the package and much more better compiler
with a good support. Can you help me with information how to?
The DDK headers are incomplete. Unless you know exactly what you’re
doing, don’t try to use them or you may wind up with problems.
And as for good support: if you build a driver with GCC and then come
here for support, you’re very likely to be told to re-build with the DDK
compiler as a first troubleshooting step.
Bottom line - the DDK is free and well supported, so it’s a no-brainer.
By the way, if you’re just curious from an academic standpoint, you
should check out ReactOS - http://www.reactos.com. Last time i looked
it was way short of being complete, but they have a lot of the kernel
there, and the design seems to follow Microsoft’s pretty closely. Very
educational.
-sd
“Christiaan Ghijselinck” wrote in
message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
>
> Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use it … Would
you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
>
>
I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the time. On Linux.
Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that professional enough for
you?
Carl
That would be because the supported compiler for linux is, shockingly
enough, gcc. The supported compiler for the NT kernel however is NOT gcc.
The point isn’t which compiler is the ‘compiler for professional
developers’, but that professional developers use the appropriate toolset
for the target platform and do not get all bollixed up in irrelevant side
issues.
=====================
Mark Roddy
Hollis Technology Solutions
www.hollistech.com
xxxxx@hollistech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Appellof [mailto:xxxxx@nospam.veritas.com]
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 11:52 AM
To: Windows System Software Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
“Christiaan Ghijselinck” wrote in
message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
>
> Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use it …
> Would
you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
>
>
I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the time. On Linux.
Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that professional enough for
you?
Carl
—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: “Carl Appellof”
Newsgroups: ntdev
To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 5:51 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
>
> “Christiaan Ghijselinck” wrote in
> message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> >
> > Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use it … Would
> you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
> >
> >
>
> I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the time. On Linux.
> Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that professional enough for
> you?
>
> Carl
>
I stated my opinium in point of view of developing drivers for Windows. If I had to develop
a Linux driver, I would not use the Microsoft compiler, just for compatibility reasons with
libraries, header syntax , etc…
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@compaqnet.be
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
Have it your way. If you want to learn the what mysteries of the Universe
try gcc or
actually any environment that can produce portable executable, not
forgetting assembler.
If instead you think that life is too short, use the Microsoft suggested
way of doing things.
Microsoft is probably right 40% of the time, less than throwing a coin, but
as far as drivers,
they have a far better team than in their other business pursuits.
GCC is arguably the best compiler around. Unless you compare it with the
Intel compiler. In
the driver shops what counts is a compiler capable of doing simple C and
sometimes C++. Most
people shy away from pushing the compiler to the limit of the C++
possibilities. Many will not
even touch C++ and stay in C. They have enough things that can bite or make
the screen go
blue, so they avoid adding more variables to the soup. Even the Visual C
ide environment is
avoided by most driver writers at the time of final compiling.
George Blat
(425)775-7475
At 09:05 AM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: “Carl Appellof”
>Newsgroups: ntdev
>To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
>Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 5:51 PM
>Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
>
>
> >
> > “Christiaan Ghijselinck” wrote in
> > message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > >
> > >
> > > Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use it … Would
> > you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the time. On Linux.
> > Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that professional enough for
> > you?
> >
> > Carl
> >
>
>I stated my opinium in point of view of developing drivers for Windows. If
>I had to develop
>a Linux driver, I would not use the Microsoft compiler, just for
>compatibility reasons with
>libraries, header syntax , etc…
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> xxxxx@compaqnet.be
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >
>
>
>—
>Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Uh they wrote the OS that seems to use the drivers.
There is alot of my way or the highway logic in that
arrangement.
I keep trying to install my Linux drivers on XP but
nothing happens.(larry, curley, moe) Linux doesn’t
like my calls to RtlCopyMemory either.
Asher
If instead you think that life is too short, use the
Microsoft suggested
way of doing things.
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
I totally agree. I don’t have enough hours in my day to figure out how I
might
use gcc to develop NT drivers, nor would I want to.
Carl
“Roddy, Mark” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> That would be because the supported compiler for linux is, shockingly
> enough, gcc. The supported compiler for the NT kernel however is NOT gcc.
> The point isn’t which compiler is the ‘compiler for professional
> developers’, but that professional developers use the appropriate toolset
> for the target platform and do not get all bollixed up in irrelevant side
> issues.
>
Not for Windows when the compiler is free with the DDK
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
On Behalf Of Carl Appellof
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 8:52 AM
To: Windows System Software Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
“Christiaan Ghijselinck” wrote in
message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
>
> Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use it … Would
you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
>
>
I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the time. On Linux.
Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that professional enough for
you?
Carl
—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@storagecraft.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Oh my goo’ness, have I entered (a) parallel universe(so). Three threads,
back to back, all about the same thing., just different colors.
Puhhhhlease!!! … GCC the best … only if you like and have used GCC,
which I never have and probably never will. Microsoft tools and platforms
pays my mortgage, if GCC ever does that then I will use GCC. Will it be
“better”? I doubt it, and frankly don’t give rusty red butt.
This entire argument is roughly equivalent to two 6 year olds bragging about
how their dad can beat up the other dad, but neither one realizes that two
Woody Allen’s couldn’t beat up themselves.
–
Gary G. Little
Seagate Technologies, LLC
xxxxx@seagate.com
“George Blat” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
>
>
> Have it your way. If you want to learn the what mysteries of the Universe
> try gcc or
> actually any environment that can produce portable executable, not
> forgetting assembler.
>
> If instead you think that life is too short, use the Microsoft suggested
> way of doing things.
> Microsoft is probably right 40% of the time, less than throwing a coin,
but
> as far as drivers,
> they have a far better team than in their other business pursuits.
>
> GCC is arguably the best compiler around. Unless you compare it with the
> Intel compiler. In
> the driver shops what counts is a compiler capable of doing simple C and
> sometimes C++. Most
> people shy away from pushing the compiler to the limit of the C++
> possibilities. Many will not
> even touch C++ and stay in C. They have enough things that can bite or
make
> the screen go
> blue, so they avoid adding more variables to the soup. Even the Visual C
> ide environment is
> avoided by most driver writers at the time of final compiling.
>
> George Blat
>
> (425)775-7475
>
>
>
> At 09:05 AM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: “Carl Appellof”
> >Newsgroups: ntdev
> >To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
> >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 5:51 PM
> >Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
> >
> >
> > >
> > > “Christiaan Ghijselinck” wrote
in
> > > message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use it …
Would
> > > you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the time. On
Linux.
> > > Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that professional enough
for
> > > you?
> > >
> > > Carl
> > >
> >
> >I stated my opinium in point of view of developing drivers for Windows.
If
> >I had to develop
> >a Linux driver, I would not use the Microsoft compiler, just for
> >compatibility reasons with
> >libraries, header syntax , etc…
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > —
> > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > >
> > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > xxxxx@compaqnet.be
> > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >—
> >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> >To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>
>
>
>
Specialists are those that know more and more about less and less, until some
know everything about nothing.
At 12:51 PM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
Oh my goo’ness, have I entered (a) parallel universe(so). Three threads,
back to back, all about the same thing., just different colors.Puhhhhlease!!! … GCC the best … only if you like and have used GCC,
which I never have and probably never will. Microsoft tools and platforms
pays my mortgage, if GCC ever does that then I will use GCC. Will it be
“better”? I doubt it, and frankly don’t give rusty red butt.This entire argument is roughly equivalent to two 6 year olds bragging about
how their dad can beat up the other dad, but neither one realizes that two
Woody Allen’s couldn’t beat up themselves.–
Gary G. Little
Seagate Technologies, LLC
xxxxx@seagate.com“George Blat” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> >
> >
> > Have it your way. If you want to learn the what mysteries of the Universe
> > try gcc or
> > actually any environment that can produce portable executable, not
> > forgetting assembler.
> >
> > If instead you think that life is too short, use the Microsoft suggested
> > way of doing things.
> > Microsoft is probably right 40% of the time, less than throwing a coin,
>but
> > as far as drivers,
> > they have a far better team than in their other business pursuits.
> >
> > GCC is arguably the best compiler around. Unless you compare it with the
> > Intel compiler. In
> > the driver shops what counts is a compiler capable of doing simple C and
> > sometimes C++. Most
> > people shy away from pushing the compiler to the limit of the C++
> > possibilities. Many will not
> > even touch C++ and stay in C. They have enough things that can bite or
>make
> > the screen go
> > blue, so they avoid adding more variables to the soup. Even the Visual C
> > ide environment is
> > avoided by most driver writers at the time of final compiling.
> >
> > George Blat
> >
> > (425)775-7475
> >
> >
> >
> > At 09:05 AM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
> >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: “Carl Appellof”
> > >Newsgroups: ntdev
> > >To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
>
> > >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 5:51 PM
> > >Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > “Christiaan Ghijselinck” wrote
>in
> > > > message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use it …
>Would
> > > > you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the time. On
>Linux.
> > > > Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that professional enough
>for
> > > > you?
> > > >
> > > > Carl
> > > >
> > >
> > >I stated my opinium in point of view of developing drivers for Windows.
>If
> > >I had to develop
> > >a Linux driver, I would not use the Microsoft compiler, just for
> > >compatibility reasons with
> > >libraries, header syntax , etc…
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > >
> > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > xxxxx@compaqnet.be
> > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >—
> > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > >
> > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>—
>Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> There are ddk headers in the package and much more better compiler
with a good support. Can you help me with information how to?
First of all, GCC is a bit worse to Microsoft’s CL, and this was always so.
Second, the idea of calling the support of any open source software - good -
makes me laugh.
Third, the open source versions of DDK header files are full of bugs, and this
is rather well-known.
So, no need in going away from MS’s compiler at all. Just purchase the XP DDK -
it includes everything you need for both drivers and user-mode software and
costs some tiny sum.
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
No Gary is a pro who is quite knowledgeable. Now I have a question for you,
you state “GCC is arguably the best compiler around”, by what measure do you
make that claim. Having been a compiler engineer for a number of years
(including knowing some of the players in GCC), compiler types measure
things before making claims, so what is your basis for such a bald
statement.
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
----- Original Message -----
From: “George Blat”
To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 11:38 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
> Specialists are those that know more and more about less and less, until
some
> know everything about nothing.
>
>
>
> At 12:51 PM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
> >Oh my goo’ness, have I entered (a) parallel universe(so). Three threads,
> >back to back, all about the same thing., just different colors.
> >
> >Puhhhhlease!!! … GCC the best … only if you like and have used GCC,
> >which I never have and probably never will. Microsoft tools and platforms
> >pays my mortgage, if GCC ever does that then I will use GCC. Will it be
> >“better”? I doubt it, and frankly don’t give rusty red butt.
> >
> >This entire argument is roughly equivalent to two 6 year olds bragging
about
> >how their dad can beat up the other dad, but neither one realizes that
two
> >Woody Allen’s couldn’t beat up themselves.
> >
> >–
> >Gary G. Little
> >Seagate Technologies, LLC
> >xxxxx@seagate.com
> >
> >“George Blat” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Have it your way. If you want to learn the what mysteries of the
Universe
> > > try gcc or
> > > actually any environment that can produce portable executable, not
> > > forgetting assembler.
> > >
> > > If instead you think that life is too short, use the Microsoft
suggested
> > > way of doing things.
> > > Microsoft is probably right 40% of the time, less than throwing a
coin,
> >but
> > > as far as drivers,
> > > they have a far better team than in their other business pursuits.
> > >
> > > GCC is arguably the best compiler around. Unless you compare it with
the
> > > Intel compiler. In
> > > the driver shops what counts is a compiler capable of doing simple C
and
> > > sometimes C++. Most
> > > people shy away from pushing the compiler to the limit of the C++
> > > possibilities. Many will not
> > > even touch C++ and stay in C. They have enough things that can bite or
> >make
> > > the screen go
> > > blue, so they avoid adding more variables to the soup. Even the Visual
C
> > > ide environment is
> > > avoided by most driver writers at the time of final compiling.
> > >
> > > George Blat
> > >
> > > (425)775-7475
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 09:05 AM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: “Carl Appellof”
> > > >Newsgroups: ntdev
> > > >To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
> >
> > > >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 5:51 PM
> > > >Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > “Christiaan Ghijselinck”
wrote
> >in
> > > > > message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use it
…
> >Would
> > > > > you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the time. On
> >Linux.
> > > > > Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that professional
enough
> >for
> > > > > you?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carl
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >I stated my opinium in point of view of developing drivers for
Windows.
> >If
> > > >I had to develop
> > > >a Linux driver, I would not use the Microsoft compiler, just for
> > > >compatibility reasons with
> > > >libraries, header syntax , etc…
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > —
> > > > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > >
> > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > > xxxxx@compaqnet.be
> > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >—
> > > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > >
> > > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >—
> >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> >To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Don:
First of all, let me be the first to apologize if you think I criticized
Gary. I have the highest
respect for him. What I meant is that if you are in one field of expertise,
it’s quite natural to
discard alternatives outside the usual practice of that field. I do take
issue with an attitude of
“what I don’t know definitively doesn’t matter”. How do you know if you
don’t know?
About GCC. I stated in my earlier message that for professional writing of
NT/2K/XP device
drivers the Best Tool is the Microsoft Compiler Environment. That’s what I
use, version 5 and
NET occasionally , version 6 all the time. Now, having said that, I always
wanted to know what
is going on in the IFS kit. I never had a chance because I could not shell
out the kilo-dollars
required. It was a nice surprise for me to go to my Mingw setup, which I
never thought would have
anything to do with the DDK and find a full DDK include directory with a
full, albeit perhaps not
totally correct NTIFS header file. I don’t intend to use it or to write
file system drivers, but I think
it may help me expand my understanding from time to time.
Most of the down to the metal development that’s going on nowadays is not
in another driver for
XP/2K. Most of the new technologies are embedded, and gcc is a widely
retargeted and retargetable
compiler. I never kept track of how many processors and hardware
environment it supports but it
is huge. GCC is usually financed by the hardware companies when they need a
new software
development environment for a new micro. So the list keeps expanding. GCC
lately become very
close to the official C++ standard, and that is important to some people
who see Microsoft as not very
interested in following the standard.
Some of the things in open source are pure trash. But many more are
actually better than the commercial
equivalents. So it’s good to have an open mind in that regard. Even
Microsoft uses open source inside,
under the careful watch of MS counsel to keep everything squeaky clean.
It’s a scary world. How
do we get paid when so many software products around us are becoming free.
It’s good when we
find something we need right away and for free. It’s bad when our company
cannot sell its products
because they are available as open source.
I have been part of the Microsoft tools team as a contractor. I have not
written code for the compiler but
been in contact with the people that did that. And I believe they were as
knowledgeable as it can be. But
Microsoft has strategies that guide what they do and sometimes leave the
end user with less that what
he/she could get if Microsoft would be subject to heavy market competition.
This is just my personal opinion
and it’s not based in any inside information. I have none.
So, there are two kinds of people. Let’s use an example of restaurants.
Some would get a McDonald
franchise because it would dictate to them step by step exactly what to do
at each moment. While
others would never get involved with McDonald because they don’t want to be
told exactly what
to do. Both can be legitimate and prosperous members of society.
With or without or our blessing, some diehards will start writing drivers
with Mingw. And they will find
that there may be bugs. There are always bugs. So they will clean them. And
in due time there will be a
healthy competition with the free Microsoft CL that comes with the DDK.
Even if both are free, they will
both improve through the forces of competition. So WE will ultimately
benefit. by the simultaneous existence
of Visual C and GCC.
My two pfennigs, 
George C Blat
phone: (425)775-7475
At 04:56 AM 8/9/2003, you wrote:
No Gary is a pro who is quite knowledgeable. Now I have a question for you,
you state “GCC is arguably the best compiler around”, by what measure do you
make that claim. Having been a compiler engineer for a number of years
(including knowing some of the players in GCC), compiler types measure
things before making claims, so what is your basis for such a bald
statement.Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting----- Original Message -----
From: “George Blat”
>To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
>Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 11:38 PM
>Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
>
>
> > Specialists are those that know more and more about less and less, until
>some
> > know everything about nothing.
> >
> >
> >
> > At 12:51 PM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
> > >Oh my goo’ness, have I entered (a) parallel universe(so). Three threads,
> > >back to back, all about the same thing., just different colors.
> > >
> > >Puhhhhlease!!! … GCC the best … only if you like and have used GCC,
> > >which I never have and probably never will. Microsoft tools and platforms
> > >pays my mortgage, if GCC ever does that then I will use GCC. Will it be
> > >“better”? I doubt it, and frankly don’t give rusty red butt.
> > >
> > >This entire argument is roughly equivalent to two 6 year olds bragging
>about
> > >how their dad can beat up the other dad, but neither one realizes that
>two
> > >Woody Allen’s couldn’t beat up themselves.
> > >
> > >–
> > >Gary G. Little
> > >Seagate Technologies, LLC
> > >xxxxx@seagate.com
> > >
> > >“George Blat” wrote in message
>news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Have it your way. If you want to learn the what mysteries of the
>Universe
> > > > try gcc or
> > > > actually any environment that can produce portable executable, not
> > > > forgetting assembler.
> > > >
> > > > If instead you think that life is too short, use the Microsoft
>suggested
> > > > way of doing things.
> > > > Microsoft is probably right 40% of the time, less than throwing a
>coin,
> > >but
> > > > as far as drivers,
> > > > they have a far better team than in their other business pursuits.
> > > >
> > > > GCC is arguably the best compiler around. Unless you compare it with
>the
> > > > Intel compiler. In
> > > > the driver shops what counts is a compiler capable of doing simple C
>and
> > > > sometimes C++. Most
> > > > people shy away from pushing the compiler to the limit of the C++
> > > > possibilities. Many will not
> > > > even touch C++ and stay in C. They have enough things that can bite or
> > >make
> > > > the screen go
> > > > blue, so they avoid adding more variables to the soup. Even the Visual
>C
> > > > ide environment is
> > > > avoided by most driver writers at the time of final compiling.
> > > >
> > > > George Blat
> > > >
> > > > (425)775-7475
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 09:05 AM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: “Carl Appellof”
> > > > >Newsgroups: ntdev
> > > > >To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
> > >
> > > > >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 5:51 PM
> > > > >Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “Christiaan Ghijselinck”
>wrote
> > >in
> > > > > > message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use it
>…
> > >Would
> > > > > > you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the time. On
> > >Linux.
> > > > > > Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that professional
>enough
> > >for
> > > > > > you?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carl
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >I stated my opinium in point of view of developing drivers for
>Windows.
> > >If
> > > > >I had to develop
> > > > >a Linux driver, I would not use the Microsoft compiler, just for
> > > > >compatibility reasons with
> > > > >libraries, header syntax , etc…
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > —
> > > > > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > > > xxxxx@compaqnet.be
> > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >—
> > > > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > >
> > > > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >—
> > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > >
> > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>
>
>—
>Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
I suppose if the IFS kit were available at roughly the same cost and trouble
as the DDK, this whole argument would be moot. Hmmm, makes one wonder why
the heavy licensing restrictions and cost at this point in the game?
–
Bill McKenzie
Compuware Corporation
Watch your IRPs/IRBs/URBs/SRBs/NDIS pkts with our free WDMSniffer tool:
http://frontline.compuware.com/nashua/patches/utility.htm
“George Blat” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> Don:
>
> First of all, let me be the first to apologize if you think I criticized
> Gary. I have the highest
> respect for him. What I meant is that if you are in one field of
expertise,
> it’s quite natural to
> discard alternatives outside the usual practice of that field. I do take
> issue with an attitude of
> “what I don’t know definitively doesn’t matter”. How do you know if you
> don’t know?
>
> About GCC. I stated in my earlier message that for professional writing of
> NT/2K/XP device
> drivers the Best Tool is the Microsoft Compiler Environment. That’s what I
> use, version 5 and
> NET occasionally , version 6 all the time. Now, having said that, I always
> wanted to know what
> is going on in the IFS kit. I never had a chance because I could not shell
> out the kilo-dollars
> required. It was a nice surprise for me to go to my Mingw setup, which I
> never thought would have
> anything to do with the DDK and find a full DDK include directory with a
> full, albeit perhaps not
> totally correct NTIFS header file. I don’t intend to use it or to write
> file system drivers, but I think
> it may help me expand my understanding from time to time.
>
> Most of the down to the metal development that’s going on nowadays is not
> in another driver for
> XP/2K. Most of the new technologies are embedded, and gcc is a widely
> retargeted and retargetable
> compiler. I never kept track of how many processors and hardware
> environment it supports but it
> is huge. GCC is usually financed by the hardware companies when they need
a
> new software
> development environment for a new micro. So the list keeps expanding. GCC
> lately become very
> close to the official C++ standard, and that is important to some people
> who see Microsoft as not very
> interested in following the standard.
>
> Some of the things in open source are pure trash. But many more are
> actually better than the commercial
> equivalents. So it’s good to have an open mind in that regard. Even
> Microsoft uses open source inside,
> under the careful watch of MS counsel to keep everything squeaky clean.
> It’s a scary world. How
> do we get paid when so many software products around us are becoming free.
> It’s good when we
> find something we need right away and for free. It’s bad when our company
> cannot sell its products
> because they are available as open source.
>
> I have been part of the Microsoft tools team as a contractor. I have not
> written code for the compiler but
> been in contact with the people that did that. And I believe they were as
> knowledgeable as it can be. But
> Microsoft has strategies that guide what they do and sometimes leave the
> end user with less that what
> he/she could get if Microsoft would be subject to heavy market
competition.
> This is just my personal opinion
> and it’s not based in any inside information. I have none.
>
> So, there are two kinds of people. Let’s use an example of restaurants.
> Some would get a McDonald
> franchise because it would dictate to them step by step exactly what to do
> at each moment. While
> others would never get involved with McDonald because they don’t want to
be
> told exactly what
> to do. Both can be legitimate and prosperous members of society.
>
> With or without or our blessing, some diehards will start writing drivers
> with Mingw. And they will find
> that there may be bugs. There are always bugs. So they will clean them.
And
> in due time there will be a
> healthy competition with the free Microsoft CL that comes with the DDK.
> Even if both are free, they will
> both improve through the forces of competition. So WE will ultimately
> benefit. by the simultaneous existence
> of Visual C and GCC.
>
> My two pfennigs,
>
> George C Blat
>
> phone: (425)775-7475
>
>
>
> At 04:56 AM 8/9/2003, you wrote:
> >No Gary is a pro who is quite knowledgeable. Now I have a question for
you,
> >you state “GCC is arguably the best compiler around”, by what measure do
you
> >make that claim. Having been a compiler engineer for a number of years
> >(including knowing some of the players in GCC), compiler types measure
> >things before making claims, so what is your basis for such a bald
> >statement.
> >
> >Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
> >Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: “George Blat”
> >To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
> >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 11:38 PM
> >Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
> >
> >
> > > Specialists are those that know more and more about less and less,
until
> >some
> > > know everything about nothing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 12:51 PM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
> > > >Oh my goo’ness, have I entered (a) parallel universe(so). Three
threads,
> > > >back to back, all about the same thing., just different colors.
> > > >
> > > >Puhhhhlease!!! … GCC the best … only if you like and have used
GCC,
> > > >which I never have and probably never will. Microsoft tools and
platforms
> > > >pays my mortgage, if GCC ever does that then I will use GCC. Will it
be
> > > >“better”? I doubt it, and frankly don’t give rusty red butt.
> > > >
> > > >This entire argument is roughly equivalent to two 6 year olds
bragging
> >about
> > > >how their dad can beat up the other dad, but neither one realizes
that
> >two
> > > >Woody Allen’s couldn’t beat up themselves.
> > > >
> > > >–
> > > >Gary G. Little
> > > >Seagate Technologies, LLC
> > > >xxxxx@seagate.com
> > > >
> > > >“George Blat” wrote in message
> >news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Have it your way. If you want to learn the what mysteries of the
> >Universe
> > > > > try gcc or
> > > > > actually any environment that can produce portable executable, not
> > > > > forgetting assembler.
> > > > >
> > > > > If instead you think that life is too short, use the Microsoft
> >suggested
> > > > > way of doing things.
> > > > > Microsoft is probably right 40% of the time, less than throwing a
> >coin,
> > > >but
> > > > > as far as drivers,
> > > > > they have a far better team than in their other business pursuits.
> > > > >
> > > > > GCC is arguably the best compiler around. Unless you compare it
with
> >the
> > > > > Intel compiler. In
> > > > > the driver shops what counts is a compiler capable of doing simple
C
> >and
> > > > > sometimes C++. Most
> > > > > people shy away from pushing the compiler to the limit of the C++
> > > > > possibilities. Many will not
> > > > > even touch C++ and stay in C. They have enough things that can
bite or
> > > >make
> > > > > the screen go
> > > > > blue, so they avoid adding more variables to the soup. Even the
Visual
> >C
> > > > > ide environment is
> > > > > avoided by most driver writers at the time of final compiling.
> > > > >
> > > > > George Blat
> > > > >
> > > > > (425)775-7475
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At 09:05 AM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: “Carl Appellof”
> > > > > >Newsgroups: ntdev
> > > > > >To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
> > > >
> > > > > >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 5:51 PM
> > > > > >Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > “Christiaan Ghijselinck”
> >wrote
> > > >in
> > > > > > > message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use
it
> >…
> > > >Would
> > > > > > > you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the time.
On
> > > >Linux.
> > > > > > > Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that professional
> >enough
> > > >for
> > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Carl
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I stated my opinium in point of view of developing drivers for
> >Windows.
> > > >If
> > > > > >I had to develop
> > > > > >a Linux driver, I would not use the Microsoft compiler, just for
> > > > > >compatibility reasons with
> > > > > >libraries, header syntax , etc…
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > > > > xxxxx@compaqnet.be
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> >xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >—
> > > > > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > > >
> > > > > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > > > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to
xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >—
> > > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > >
> > > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > —
> > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > >
> > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >
> >
> >
> >—
> >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> >To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>
>
>
>
I asked this question at WinHEC this year to the person doing the talk on LDK. And the answer was
that this is all due to IP issue involved. Basically, the answer to my question “why don’t you
redistribute IFS as part of DDK at this point” was - and I quote here - “the lawyers made me do
it”.
– Max.
— Bill McKenzie wrote:
> I suppose if the IFS kit were available at roughly the same cost and trouble
> as the DDK, this whole argument would be moot. Hmmm, makes one wonder why
> the heavy licensing restrictions and cost at this point in the game?
>
> –
> Bill McKenzie
> Compuware Corporation
> Watch your IRPs/IRBs/URBs/SRBs/NDIS pkts with our free WDMSniffer tool:
> http://frontline.compuware.com/nashua/patches/utility.htm
>
>
> “George Blat” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> > Don:
> >
> > First of all, let me be the first to apologize if you think I criticized
> > Gary. I have the highest
> > respect for him. What I meant is that if you are in one field of
> expertise,
> > it’s quite natural to
> > discard alternatives outside the usual practice of that field. I do take
> > issue with an attitude of
> > “what I don’t know definitively doesn’t matter”. How do you know if you
> > don’t know?
> >
> > About GCC. I stated in my earlier message that for professional writing of
> > NT/2K/XP device
> > drivers the Best Tool is the Microsoft Compiler Environment. That’s what I
> > use, version 5 and
> > NET occasionally , version 6 all the time. Now, having said that, I always
> > wanted to know what
> > is going on in the IFS kit. I never had a chance because I could not shell
> > out the kilo-dollars
> > required. It was a nice surprise for me to go to my Mingw setup, which I
> > never thought would have
> > anything to do with the DDK and find a full DDK include directory with a
> > full, albeit perhaps not
> > totally correct NTIFS header file. I don’t intend to use it or to write
> > file system drivers, but I think
> > it may help me expand my understanding from time to time.
> >
> > Most of the down to the metal development that’s going on nowadays is not
> > in another driver for
> > XP/2K. Most of the new technologies are embedded, and gcc is a widely
> > retargeted and retargetable
> > compiler. I never kept track of how many processors and hardware
> > environment it supports but it
> > is huge. GCC is usually financed by the hardware companies when they need
> a
> > new software
> > development environment for a new micro. So the list keeps expanding. GCC
> > lately become very
> > close to the official C++ standard, and that is important to some people
> > who see Microsoft as not very
> > interested in following the standard.
> >
> > Some of the things in open source are pure trash. But many more are
> > actually better than the commercial
> > equivalents. So it’s good to have an open mind in that regard. Even
> > Microsoft uses open source inside,
> > under the careful watch of MS counsel to keep everything squeaky clean.
> > It’s a scary world. How
> > do we get paid when so many software products around us are becoming free.
> > It’s good when we
> > find something we need right away and for free. It’s bad when our company
> > cannot sell its products
> > because they are available as open source.
> >
> > I have been part of the Microsoft tools team as a contractor. I have not
> > written code for the compiler but
> > been in contact with the people that did that. And I believe they were as
> > knowledgeable as it can be. But
> > Microsoft has strategies that guide what they do and sometimes leave the
> > end user with less that what
> > he/she could get if Microsoft would be subject to heavy market
> competition.
> > This is just my personal opinion
> > and it’s not based in any inside information. I have none.
> >
> > So, there are two kinds of people. Let’s use an example of restaurants.
> > Some would get a McDonald
> > franchise because it would dictate to them step by step exactly what to do
> > at each moment. While
> > others would never get involved with McDonald because they don’t want to
> be
> > told exactly what
> > to do. Both can be legitimate and prosperous members of society.
> >
> > With or without or our blessing, some diehards will start writing drivers
> > with Mingw. And they will find
> > that there may be bugs. There are always bugs. So they will clean them.
> And
> > in due time there will be a
> > healthy competition with the free Microsoft CL that comes with the DDK.
> > Even if both are free, they will
> > both improve through the forces of competition. So WE will ultimately
> > benefit. by the simultaneous existence
> > of Visual C and GCC.
> >
> > My two pfennigs,
> >
> > George C Blat
> >
> > phone: (425)775-7475
> >
> >
> >
> > At 04:56 AM 8/9/2003, you wrote:
> > >No Gary is a pro who is quite knowledgeable. Now I have a question for
> you,
> > >you state “GCC is arguably the best compiler around”, by what measure do
> you
> > >make that claim. Having been a compiler engineer for a number of years
> > >(including knowing some of the players in GCC), compiler types measure
> > >things before making claims, so what is your basis for such a bald
> > >statement.
> > >
> > >Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
> > >Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: “George Blat”
> > >To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
>
> > >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 11:38 PM
> > >Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
> > >
> > >
> > > > Specialists are those that know more and more about less and less,
> until
> > >some
> > > > know everything about nothing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 12:51 PM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
> > > > >Oh my goo’ness, have I entered (a) parallel universe(so). Three
> threads,
> > > > >back to back, all about the same thing., just different colors.
> > > > >
> > > > >Puhhhhlease!!! … GCC the best … only if you like and have used
> GCC,
> > > > >which I never have and probably never will. Microsoft tools and
> platforms
> > > > >pays my mortgage, if GCC ever does that then I will use GCC. Will it
> be
> > > > >“better”? I doubt it, and frankly don’t give rusty red butt.
> > > > >
> > > > >This entire argument is roughly equivalent to two 6 year olds
> bragging
> > >about
> > > > >how their dad can beat up the other dad, but neither one realizes
> that
> > >two
> > > > >Woody Allen’s couldn’t beat up themselves.
> > > > >
> > > > >–
> > > > >Gary G. Little
> > > > >Seagate Technologies, LLC
> > > > >xxxxx@seagate.com
> > > > >
> > > > >“George Blat” wrote in message
> > >news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have it your way. If you want to learn the what mysteries of the
> > >Universe
> > > > > > try gcc or
> > > > > > actually any environment that can produce portable executable, not
> > > > > > forgetting assembler.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If instead you think that life is too short, use the Microsoft
> > >suggested
> > > > > > way of doing things.
> > > > > > Microsoft is probably right 40% of the time, less than throwing a
> > >coin,
> > > > >but
> > > > > > as far as drivers,
> > > > > > they have a far better team than in their other business pursuits.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GCC is arguably the best compiler around. Unless you compare it
> with
> > >the
> > > > > > Intel compiler. In
> > > > > > the driver shops what counts is a compiler capable of doing simple
> C
> > >and
> > > > > > sometimes C++. Most
> > > > > > people shy away from pushing the compiler to the limit of the C++
> > > > > > possibilities. Many will not
> > > > > > even touch C++ and stay in C. They have enough things that can
> bite or
> > > > >make
> > > > > > the screen go
> > > > > > blue, so they avoid adding more variables to the soup. Even the
> Visual
> > >C
> > > > > > ide environment is
> > > > > > avoided by most driver writers at the time of final compiling.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > George Blat
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (425)775-7475
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 09:05 AM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: “Carl Appellof”
> > > > > > >Newsgroups: ntdev
> > > > > > >To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
> > > > >
> > > > > > >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 5:51 PM
> > > > > > >Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > “Christiaan Ghijselinck”
> > >wrote
> > > > >in
> > > > > > > > message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will use
> it
> > >…
> > > > >Would
> > > > > > > > you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the time.
> On
> > > > >Linux.
> > > > > > > > Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that professional
> > >enough
> > > > >for
> > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Carl
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I stated my opinium in point of view of developing drivers for
> > >Windows.
> > > > >If
> > > > > > >I had to develop
> > > > > > >a Linux driver, I would not use the Microsoft compiler, just for
> > > > > > >compatibility reasons with
> > > > > > >libraries, header syntax , etc…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > > > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > > > > > xxxxx@compaqnet.be
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> > >xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >—
> > > > > > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > > > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > > > > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >—
> > > > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > >
> > > > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > >
> > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >—
> > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > >
> > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
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I don’t buy this answer. Not that the person who told you this might not
believe it, but I don’t believe anyone would let their lawyers hold them
hostage unless it was somehow perceived as advantageous. The licensing on
the IFS kit is extreme which seems odd in a space where the drivers are
particularily difficult to get correct. It seems more information
proliferation would be better. I mean, if you were worried about third
party drivers bringing down the real or perceived integrity of your
operating system. So, I am left to conclude that that must not be the case
for file system related drivers.
–
Bill McKenzie
Compuware Corporation
Watch your IRPs/IRBs/URBs/SRBs/NDIS pkts with our free WDMSniffer tool:
http://frontline.compuware.com/nashua/patches/utility.htm
“Max Paklin” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> I asked this question at WinHEC this year to the person doing the talk on
LDK. And the answer was
> that this is all due to IP issue involved. Basically, the answer to my
question “why don’t you
> redistribute IFS as part of DDK at this point” was - and I quote here -
“the lawyers made me do
> it”.
>
> – Max.
>
>
>
> — Bill McKenzie wrote:
> > I suppose if the IFS kit were available at roughly the same cost and
trouble
> > as the DDK, this whole argument would be moot. Hmmm, makes one wonder
why
> > the heavy licensing restrictions and cost at this point in the game?
> >
> > –
> > Bill McKenzie
> > Compuware Corporation
> > Watch your IRPs/IRBs/URBs/SRBs/NDIS pkts with our free WDMSniffer tool:
> > http://frontline.compuware.com/nashua/patches/utility.htm
> >
> >
> > “George Blat” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > >
> > > Don:
> > >
> > > First of all, let me be the first to apologize if you think I
criticized
> > > Gary. I have the highest
> > > respect for him. What I meant is that if you are in one field of
> > expertise,
> > > it’s quite natural to
> > > discard alternatives outside the usual practice of that field. I do
take
> > > issue with an attitude of
> > > “what I don’t know definitively doesn’t matter”. How do you know if
you
> > > don’t know?
> > >
> > > About GCC. I stated in my earlier message that for professional
writing of
> > > NT/2K/XP device
> > > drivers the Best Tool is the Microsoft Compiler Environment. That’s
what I
> > > use, version 5 and
> > > NET occasionally , version 6 all the time. Now, having said that, I
always
> > > wanted to know what
> > > is going on in the IFS kit. I never had a chance because I could not
shell
> > > out the kilo-dollars
> > > required. It was a nice surprise for me to go to my Mingw setup, which
I
> > > never thought would have
> > > anything to do with the DDK and find a full DDK include directory with
a
> > > full, albeit perhaps not
> > > totally correct NTIFS header file. I don’t intend to use it or to
write
> > > file system drivers, but I think
> > > it may help me expand my understanding from time to time.
> > >
> > > Most of the down to the metal development that’s going on nowadays is
not
> > > in another driver for
> > > XP/2K. Most of the new technologies are embedded, and gcc is a widely
> > > retargeted and retargetable
> > > compiler. I never kept track of how many processors and hardware
> > > environment it supports but it
> > > is huge. GCC is usually financed by the hardware companies when they
need
> > a
> > > new software
> > > development environment for a new micro. So the list keeps expanding.
GCC
> > > lately become very
> > > close to the official C++ standard, and that is important to some
people
> > > who see Microsoft as not very
> > > interested in following the standard.
> > >
> > > Some of the things in open source are pure trash. But many more are
> > > actually better than the commercial
> > > equivalents. So it’s good to have an open mind in that regard. Even
> > > Microsoft uses open source inside,
> > > under the careful watch of MS counsel to keep everything squeaky
clean.
> > > It’s a scary world. How
> > > do we get paid when so many software products around us are becoming
free.
> > > It’s good when we
> > > find something we need right away and for free. It’s bad when our
company
> > > cannot sell its products
> > > because they are available as open source.
> > >
> > > I have been part of the Microsoft tools team as a contractor. I have
not
> > > written code for the compiler but
> > > been in contact with the people that did that. And I believe they were
as
> > > knowledgeable as it can be. But
> > > Microsoft has strategies that guide what they do and sometimes leave
the
> > > end user with less that what
> > > he/she could get if Microsoft would be subject to heavy market
> > competition.
> > > This is just my personal opinion
> > > and it’s not based in any inside information. I have none.
> > >
> > > So, there are two kinds of people. Let’s use an example of
restaurants.
> > > Some would get a McDonald
> > > franchise because it would dictate to them step by step exactly what
to do
> > > at each moment. While
> > > others would never get involved with McDonald because they don’t want
to
> > be
> > > told exactly what
> > > to do. Both can be legitimate and prosperous members of society.
> > >
> > > With or without or our blessing, some diehards will start writing
drivers
> > > with Mingw. And they will find
> > > that there may be bugs. There are always bugs. So they will clean
them.
> > And
> > > in due time there will be a
> > > healthy competition with the free Microsoft CL that comes with the
DDK.
> > > Even if both are free, they will
> > > both improve through the forces of competition. So WE will ultimately
> > > benefit. by the simultaneous existence
> > > of Visual C and GCC.
> > >
> > > My two pfennigs,
> > >
> > > George C Blat
> > >
> > > phone: (425)775-7475
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 04:56 AM 8/9/2003, you wrote:
> > > >No Gary is a pro who is quite knowledgeable. Now I have a question
for
> > you,
> > > >you state “GCC is arguably the best compiler around”, by what measure
do
> > you
> > > >make that claim. Having been a compiler engineer for a number of
years
> > > >(including knowing some of the players in GCC), compiler types
measure
> > > >things before making claims, so what is your basis for such a bald
> > > >statement.
> > > >
> > > >Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
> > > >Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: “George Blat”
> > > >To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
> >
> > > >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 11:38 PM
> > > >Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Specialists are those that know more and more about less and less,
> > until
> > > >some
> > > > > know everything about nothing.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At 12:51 PM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
> > > > > >Oh my goo’ness, have I entered (a) parallel universe(so). Three
> > threads,
> > > > > >back to back, all about the same thing., just different colors.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Puhhhhlease!!! … GCC the best … only if you like and have
used
> > GCC,
> > > > > >which I never have and probably never will. Microsoft tools and
> > platforms
> > > > > >pays my mortgage, if GCC ever does that then I will use GCC. Will
it
> > be
> > > > > >“better”? I doubt it, and frankly don’t give rusty red butt.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >This entire argument is roughly equivalent to two 6 year olds
> > bragging
> > > >about
> > > > > >how their dad can beat up the other dad, but neither one realizes
> > that
> > > >two
> > > > > >Woody Allen’s couldn’t beat up themselves.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >–
> > > > > >Gary G. Little
> > > > > >Seagate Technologies, LLC
> > > > > >xxxxx@seagate.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >“George Blat” wrote in message
> > > >news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have it your way. If you want to learn the what mysteries of
the
> > > >Universe
> > > > > > > try gcc or
> > > > > > > actually any environment that can produce portable executable,
not
> > > > > > > forgetting assembler.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If instead you think that life is too short, use the Microsoft
> > > >suggested
> > > > > > > way of doing things.
> > > > > > > Microsoft is probably right 40% of the time, less than
throwing a
> > > >coin,
> > > > > >but
> > > > > > > as far as drivers,
> > > > > > > they have a far better team than in their other business
pursuits.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > GCC is arguably the best compiler around. Unless you compare
it
> > with
> > > >the
> > > > > > > Intel compiler. In
> > > > > > > the driver shops what counts is a compiler capable of doing
simple
> > C
> > > >and
> > > > > > > sometimes C++. Most
> > > > > > > people shy away from pushing the compiler to the limit of the
C++
> > > > > > > possibilities. Many will not
> > > > > > > even touch C++ and stay in C. They have enough things that can
> > bite or
> > > > > >make
> > > > > > > the screen go
> > > > > > > blue, so they avoid adding more variables to the soup. Even
the
> > Visual
> > > >C
> > > > > > > ide environment is
> > > > > > > avoided by most driver writers at the time of final compiling.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > George Blat
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > (425)775-7475
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 09:05 AM 8/8/2003, you wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > >From: “Carl Appellof”
> > > > > > > >Newsgroups: ntdev
> > > > > > > >To: “Windows System Software Developers Interest List”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 5:51 PM
> > > > > > > >Subject: [ntdev] Re: gcc
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > “Christiaan Ghijselinck”
> > > >wrote
> > > > > >in
> > > > > > > > > message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Good to experiment with, but no serious developer will
use
> > it
> > > >…
> > > > > >Would
> > > > > > > > > you like such a driver to be approved by Microsoft ?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think serious developers use gcc for drivers all the
time.
> > On
> > > > > >Linux.
> > > > > > > > > Supported by IBM and others, I believe. Is that
professional
> > > >enough
> > > > > >for
> > > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Carl
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >I stated my opinium in point of view of developing drivers
for
> > > >Windows.
> > > > > >If
> > > > > > > >I had to develop
> > > > > > > >a Linux driver, I would not use the Microsoft compiler, just
for
> > > > > > > >compatibility reasons with
> > > > > > > >libraries, header syntax , etc…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > —
> > > > > > > > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > > > > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > > > > > > xxxxx@compaqnet.be
> > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> > > >xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >—
> > > > > > > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > > > > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > > > > > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >—
> > > > > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > > >
> > > > > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > > > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to
xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > —
> > > > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > > >
> > > > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >—
> > > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > >
> > > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
> > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@yahoo.com
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>
> __________________________________
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>
>
>
Bill McKenzie wrote:
I don’t buy this answer. Not that the person who told you this might not
believe it, but I don’t believe anyone would let their lawyers hold them
hostage unless it was somehow perceived as advantageous. The licensing on
the IFS kit is extreme which seems odd in a space where the drivers are
particularily difficult to get correct. It seems more information
proliferation would be better. I mean, if you were worried about third
party drivers bringing down the real or perceived integrity of your
operating system. So, I am left to conclude that that must not be the case
for file system related drivers.
Right. “My lawyer made me do it” is usually a cop-out for someone who
doesn’t want to admit their real reason. Lawyers normally do what their
*clients* ask, not the other way round.
–
Walter Oney, Consulting and Training
Basic and Advanced Driver Programming Seminars
Check out our schedule at http://www.oneysoft.com