FW: RE: FW: RE: Beginner looking for help

The comparison wouldn’t be fair to NT. VMS systems with GUI
interfaces (ie. VAXStations and AlphaStations) also have VERY
impressive reliability.

Actually there were X-Windows terminals that could be used
to access VMS systems that were NOT workstations with a GUI
interface.

HOWEVER, VMS workstations don’t support the wide range of graphics
cards. In fact, they support a very limited number and there were
just a few 3rd party companies that had other hardware for them,
such as Intergraph who was doing very fancy graphics on VMS in
the early 80s.

I’m sure that if they supported all the 3rd party cards NT does
with the kind of people writing drivers for them that write NT
drivers, VMS would NOT have been as stable as it was.

VMS GUIs were typically mostly usermode software and that helps.
Some of UIS (the first workstation GUI) was in the kernel, but most
of it was not. Almost all of Motif is usermode code. This has to
make a difference and therefore, NT should get a bit of a pass.

Rick…

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Barila, Phil
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 2:51 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: FW: RE: Beginner looking for help

I had no idea, based on the (very) little experience I’ve had with VMS.

I kind of figured it has them by now, but I was referring to the same period
that Greg indicated. Based on your information, VMS did have GUI video
drivers even then. I think it would be interesting to compare the uptimes
of VAXen with GUIs, versus VAXen that had only a text mode console, both
using VMS.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Cadruvi [mailto:xxxxx@rdperf.com]
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 2:28 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] FW: RE: Beginner looking for help

Starting with the VAXStation-I in approx 1983, you had a full on
GUI workstation. Actually, graphical devices such as REGIS terminals
were supported practically, from the VERY beginning of VMS.

VMS has and still does support graphic devices. We were doing
graphics under VMS years before the IBM PC first showed up on the
scene. I remember working on some VMS graphics libraries for
Tektroinix in the late 1970s.

Rick Cadruvi…

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Barila, Phil
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 1:24 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: Beginner looking for help

What video drivers? I haven’t done much on VMS, but every experience with
VAX I have ever had was all text mode on dumb terminals, there were no
graphics to drive. Did VMS support any pixel-based display?

-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory G. Dyess [mailto:xxxxx@pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 12:35 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: Beginner looking for help

I worked on VMS in the mid to late 80’s and I can tell you even then it was
by FAR more stable than NT/2000. Now granted, it didn’t have video drivers
embedded into the OS and it didn’t have as many 3rd party driver-writers
that broke the OS rules as NT does now. Downtime on VMS was measured in
seconds per year!

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 2:09 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: Beginner looking for help

Gregory G. Dyess wrote:

If you’re looking for another OS that’s close to NT, look into VMS. After
all, VMS was the foundation upon which Dave Cutler built NT. Too bad he
left the clean and stable parts behind!

Please DON"T LOOK AT VMS TO UNDERSTAND NT!
I was involved in a consult a few years back, where most
of the developers came from DEC’s VMS group. Even though
we had a working NT filesystem, they insisted it was wrong
because VMS didn’t work that way. I heard after I left they
did some major rewrites to correct things, all of which were
thrown out when it was discovered they didn’t work!

As far as the stability crack, VMS wasn’t stable in the early days, but VMS
is
now 25 years old. From what I can tell Microsoft is pushing Windows 2000/XP
to stability at a faster rate than DEC did in early 80’s.

Don Burn
Windows 2000 Device Driver and Filesystem consulting


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I’m sorry but NT != VMS. Yes I know that NT is descended from VMS, but
it is not like there isn’t a whole lot of CURRENT NT SPECIFIC LITERATURE
AVAILABLE. At least six NT driver books, a whole series of ‘Inside Some
Version Of Nt or Other’ books, a whole bunch of ‘Secrets of The Dancing
NT Guru-Masters’ type books, a variety of expert seminars to choose
from, this email-list and others, plus usenet. So what on earth is the
point of sending some newbie off to study some OTHER operating system
that is sort of like NT, rather than studying NT itself? Huh? I don’t
get it, but then again I never worked for DEC.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
Everhart, Glenn (FUSA)
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 4:01 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: Beginner looking for help

For VMS docs start at
http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/

Documentation page hangs off here. You want to look at the
device support manual, which talks about driver writing etc.,
and some others.

Many of the internals concepts directly apply to NT, though
the details differ.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory G. Dyess [mailto:xxxxx@pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 3:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: Beginner looking for help

The documentation on VMS device drivers was contained in the
“Gray Wall” of documentation. It is almost exclusively on CD
now. There may be some online docs on the DEC, oops, I mean
CompaQ, web site. DEC used to charge quite handsomely for
their docs. Unlike Microsoft’s free documentation, it was
very complete and accurate.

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Moreira, Alberto
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 1:55 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: Beginner looking for help

You’re quite right, even if this IRP-centric approach
predates VMS. Are there any documents describing VMS drivers
? I’d be curious to read some about it.

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory G. Dyess [mailto:xxxxx@pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 2:03 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: Beginner looking for help

If you’re looking for another OS that’s close to NT, look
into VMS. After all, VMS was the foundation upon which Dave
Cutler built NT. Too bad he left the clean and stable parts behind!

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 12:28 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: Beginner looking for help

> The reason is this: the principles are roughly the same, but Linux
> device drivers

The principles are not the same.
Linux has no IRPs and no MDLs.
Linux has no IRQL concept and absolutely other rules of what
can be called from what context. Linux has absolutely other
disk stack. And so on.

I would not recommend Linux books for one who wants to write
an NT driver.

Max


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> that Greg indicated. Based on your information, VMS did have GUI video

drivers even then

Did they use X11 for GUI or some other stuff?

Also - a stupid question, but nevertheless - what are the main conceptual
differences between VMS and UNIX?

Any “mount to a directory” functionality in VMS?
Any hardlinks and symlinks in VMS?
Any kinds of VFS thing in VMS?
Any DLLs in VMS?
Any stdin/stdout idea in VMS?

Max


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Oops, left out part of the answers…

>>Any “mount to a directory” functionality in VMS?
NO. Why would you want it? With the logical name handling built into VMS,
there is absolutely no reason to do such a thing.

>>Any hardlinks and symlinks in VMS?
Logical names would be the closest thing. These are something like a
super-capable environment variable. The main thing is that they are
translated (interpreted) by the file system. No need to translate it in
your code or special hacks in command procedures.

>>Any kinds of VFS thing in VMS?
I’m not sure what VFS is, so I can’t answer this one.

>>Any DLLs in VMS?
Yes, Shareable Image Library. It is extremely similar to Windows DLLs.

>>Any stdin/stdout idea in VMS?
Yes. SYS$INPUT and SYS$OUTPUT logical names refer to these devices. They
can actually be redirected by simply changing these logical names.

Max


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The first VAXStations used GWS (Graphic Workstation System or something like
that). In the late 80’s DEC switched over to X Windows with their own
style. Later, they switched over to Motif for the style standard.

As to the conceptual differences between VMS and Unix, there are too many to
mention. I will say both are virtual memory, multi-user and the underlying
OSes are text based. Beyond that, almost nothing is similar.

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 12:46 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: FW: RE: Beginner looking for help

that Greg indicated. Based on your information, VMS did have GUI video
drivers even then

Did they use X11 for GUI or some other stuff?

Also - a stupid question, but nevertheless - what are the main conceptual
differences between VMS and UNIX?

Any “mount to a directory” functionality in VMS?
Any hardlinks and symlinks in VMS?
Any kinds of VFS thing in VMS?
Any DLLs in VMS?
Any stdin/stdout idea in VMS?

Max


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No VFS thing… It uses IRPS and has a whacky interface like NT. This I know
because I read “VMS File System Internals” By Kirby McCoy. I have no actual
experience in VMS.

Jamey Kirby
StorageCraft, inc.
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
www.storagecraft.com

----- Original Message -----
From: “Maxim S. Shatskih”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 10:45 AM
Subject: [ntdev] RE: FW: RE: Beginner looking for help

> > that Greg indicated. Based on your information, VMS did have GUI video
> > drivers even then
>
> Did they use X11 for GUI or some other stuff?
>
> Also - a stupid question, but nevertheless - what are the main conceptual
> differences between VMS and UNIX?
>
> Any “mount to a directory” functionality in VMS?
> Any hardlinks and symlinks in VMS?
> Any kinds of VFS thing in VMS?
> Any DLLs in VMS?
> Any stdin/stdout idea in VMS?
>
> Max
>
>
>
> —
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Get thee to a seminar!

www.azius.com
www.osr.com
www.oneysoft.com

Gary G. Little
Staff Engineer
Broadband Storage, Inc.
xxxxx@broadstor.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Levensalor [mailto:Anthony.Levensalor@ie-ATE.com]
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 9:09 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Beginner looking for help

Greetings!

Please excuse the simplicity and generality of my post, since I am
brand
new to driver development in general. My question is fairly simple: Where do
I begin? What do I do to begin developing device drivers for NT/200/XP, and
the 9x’s? I have long been interested in this aspect of programming, but
have never had the opportunity to do any work in the field. Can you folks
offer advice, suggestions, or possible starter tutorials to help me get
going?

Oh, and is there something equivalent to ‘Hello World’ for driver
development?

Thanks a ton,

Anthony Levensalor
Software Engineer
Instrumentation Engineering, INC
Anthony. Levensalor@ie-ATE.com


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I want to thank everybody who posted to help me out, there is a wealth of
information here that I can look into. I will hopefully be active with this
list in the future, and it is good to know there are so many people willing
to help.

Thanks!
~A!

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Gary Little
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 11:39 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] RE: Beginner looking for help

Get thee to a seminar!

www.azius.com
www.osr.com
www.oneysoft.com

Gary G. Little
Staff Engineer
Broadband Storage, Inc.
xxxxx@broadstor.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Levensalor [mailto:Anthony.Levensalor@ie-ATE.com]
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 9:09 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Beginner looking for help

Greetings!

Please excuse the simplicity and generality of my post, since I am
brand
new to driver development in general. My question is fairly simple: Where do
I begin? What do I do to begin developing device drivers for NT/200/XP, and
the 9x’s? I have long been interested in this aspect of programming, but
have never had the opportunity to do any work in the field. Can you folks
offer advice, suggestions, or possible starter tutorials to help me get
going?

Oh, and is there something equivalent to ‘Hello World’ for driver
development?

Thanks a ton,

Anthony Levensalor
Software Engineer
Instrumentation Engineering, INC
Anthony. Levensalor@ie-ATE.com


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