DbgView on checked build (was:Re: softice nms + DDK Suite)

NTDEV
1

On http://www.sysinternals.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1694&KW=debugview
Mark stated that DbgView does not work on checked Builds.

I have this problem with W2K3 checked 32-bit. DebugView simply hangs.
But when you start DebugView inside a User-Mode Windbg-Session then it
works. ==>Clumsy

I do not know why this is so.

BTW:Kernel debugging over 1394/Firewire on a MultiProc System is slow
compared to the same system started with /onecpu .

Norbert.

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies. - Groucho
Marx"
---- snip ----
Tim Roberts wrote:

Kernel debugging over 1394/Firewire is a pleasure. It still isn't real
time, so I do fall back to dbgview if I need to watch a verbose debug
spew while keeping a USB isochronous stream intact, but that's easy to
deal with.

---- snip ----

2

So? Good for you.

In my case, I have seen a driver crash a system so hard that it hosed the
main disc, requiring a format and re-install. If I had been debugging
single system, I would have had to restore the project from backup and
lost those most recent updates. A crash like that costs a minimum of an
hour IF you have an image that can restore the OS to a working state,
including VS, DDK, and ancillary support tools. Then you have to go back
and restore your last changes. If you don't have such an image, then you
have to break out all the install CD's, manually rebuild the disc, and
look at one to two days shot to hell just so you can get to a crash a
little bit faster

There are more reasons than speed to separate development and debug into
separate environments. After over 30 years of doing this, I can honestly
say that single system debug is a convenience I can live without

Gary G. Little

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@stollmann.de
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 9:01 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] DbgView on checked build (was:Re: softice nms + DDK
Suite)

On http://www.sysinternals.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1694&KW=debugview
Mark stated that DbgView does not work on checked Builds.

I have this problem with W2K3 checked 32-bit. DebugView simply hangs.
But when you start DebugView inside a User-Mode Windbg-Session then it
works. ==>Clumsy

I do not know why this is so.

BTW:Kernel debugging over 1394/Firewire on a MultiProc System is slow
compared to the same system started with /onecpu .

Norbert.

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies. - Groucho
Marx"
---- snip ----
Tim Roberts wrote:

Kernel debugging over 1394/Firewire is a pleasure. It still isn't real
time, so I do fall back to dbgview if I need to watch a verbose debug
spew while keeping a USB isochronous stream intact, but that's easy to
deal with.

---- snip ----

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at

3

Good, Yeah indeed.
I agree to your Excursion about not ever doing single machine debug.
That was not the point.

I like to run my drivers on a multiprocessor checked build. I also like
to have verbose traces. These come in your way when you do USB
iso-pipes or use other time critical hardware.

What I would really like to have would be a tool similar to dbgview
that captures the traces into RAM and that has a corresponding windbg
plugin to get the trace from the stopped system. I am doing it now
with the help of '.dump -f' and then using debugview scanning the
.dmp-file. Sigh... so many ideas ... so little time.

Norbert.

"It may be your whole purpose in life is to serve as an example to
others."
---- snip ----

So? Good for you.

In my case, I have seen a driver crash a system so hard that it hosed the
main disc, requiring a format and re-install. If I had been debugging
single system, I would have had to restore the project from backup and
lost those most recent updates. A crash like that costs a minimum of an
hour IF you have an image that can restore the OS to a working state,
including VS, DDK, and ancillary support tools. Then you have to go back
and restore your last changes. If you don't have such an image, then you
have to break out all the install CD's, manually rebuild the disc, and
look at one to two days shot to hell just so you can get to a crash a
little bit faster

There are more reasons than speed to separate development and debug into
separate environments. After over 30 years of doing this, I can honestly
say that single system debug is a convenience I can live without

Gary G. Little

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@stollmann.de
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 9:01 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: DbgView on checked build (was:Re: softice nms + DDK
Suite)

On
http://www.sysinternals.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1694&KW=debugview
Mark stated that DbgView does not work on checked Builds.

I have this problem with W2K3 checked 32-bit. DebugView simply hangs.
But when you start DebugView inside a User-Mode Windbg-Session then it
works. ==>>Clumsy

I do not know why this is so.

BTW:Kernel debugging over 1394/Firewire on a MultiProc System is slow
compared to the same system started with /onecpu .

Norbert.

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies. - Groucho
Marx"
---- snip ----
Tim Roberts wrote:
> Kernel debugging over 1394/Firewire is a pleasure. It still isn't real
> time, so I do fall back to dbgview if I need to watch a verbose debug
> spew while keeping a USB isochronous stream intact, but that's easy to
> deal with.

---- snip ----

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
ListServer/Forum

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
ListServer/Forum

---- snip ----

4

Have you looked at WPP tracing?

Gary G. Little

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@stollmann.de
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 10:53 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] DbgView on checked build (was:Re: softice nms + DDK
Suite)

Good, Yeah indeed.
I agree to your Excursion about not ever doing single machine debug.
That was not the point.

I like to run my drivers on a multiprocessor checked build. I also like
to have verbose traces. These come in your way when you do USB
iso-pipes or use other time critical hardware.

What I would really like to have would be a tool similar to dbgview
that captures the traces into RAM and that has a corresponding windbg
plugin to get the trace from the stopped system. I am doing it now
with the help of '.dump -f' and then using debugview scanning the
.dmp-file. Sigh... so many ideas ... so little time.

Norbert.

"It may be your whole purpose in life is to serve as an example to
others."
---- snip ----

So? Good for you.

In my case, I have seen a driver crash a system so hard that it hosed
the
main disc, requiring a format and re-install. If I had been debugging
single system, I would have had to restore the project from backup and
lost those most recent updates. A crash like that costs a minimum of an
hour IF you have an image that can restore the OS to a working state,
including VS, DDK, and ancillary support tools. Then you have to go back
and restore your last changes. If you don't have such an image, then you
have to break out all the install CD's, manually rebuild the disc, and
look at one to two days shot to hell just so you can get to a crash a
little bit faster

There are more reasons than speed to separate development and debug into
separate environments. After over 30 years of doing this, I can honestly
say that single system debug is a convenience I can live without

Gary G. Little

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@stollmann.de
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 9:01 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: DbgView on checked build (was:Re: softice nms + DDK
Suite)

On
http://www.sysinternals.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1694&KW=debugview
Mark stated that DbgView does not work on checked Builds.

I have this problem with W2K3 checked 32-bit. DebugView simply hangs.
But when you start DebugView inside a User-Mode Windbg-Session then it
works. ==>>Clumsy

I do not know why this is so.

BTW:Kernel debugging over 1394/Firewire on a MultiProc System is slow
compared to the same system started with /onecpu .

Norbert.

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies. - Groucho
Marx"
---- snip ----
Tim Roberts wrote:
> Kernel debugging over 1394/Firewire is a pleasure. It still isn't real
> time, so I do fall back to dbgview if I need to watch a verbose debug
> spew while keeping a USB isochronous stream intact, but that's easy to
> deal with.

---- snip ----

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
ListServer/Forum

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
ListServer/Forum

---- snip ----

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at

5

To echo Gary’s reply… You’ve just provided the definition of WPP tracing. While it’s annoying to learn initially, annoying to useon Win2K, and sometimes annoying in other ways as well, it’s still worth all those annoyances in the long term.

Peter
OSR

6

And when it gets to Vista it appears to have a recoverable kernel
ringbuffer, which makes it fairly complete in terms of providing a crash
analysis runtime trace tool.

Bottom line: WPP = Worth Programmer’s Pain.

=====================
Mark Roddy DDK MVP
Windows 2003/XP/2000 Consulting
Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
www.hollistech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 10:48 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] DbgView on checked build (was:Re: softice
nms + DDK Suite)

To echo Gary’s reply… You’ve just provided the definition
of WPP tracing. While it’s annoying to learn initially,
annoying to useon Win2K, and sometimes annoying in other ways
as well, it’s still worth all those annoyances in the long term.

Peter
OSR

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online
at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

7

LOL… “Worth Programmer’s Pain” – I love it.

Isn’t the “recoverable kernel ring buffer” in XP and later?? I seem to recall that it is, and accessable via the debugger extension. Does it not work?? I haven’t actually tried to recover one myself,

Peter
OSR

8

I don’t know if it is xp or later, the docs seem to say vista, but then
again the wpp docs are part of the pain.

=====================
Mark Roddy DDK MVP
Windows 2003/XP/2000 Consulting
Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
www.hollistech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 12:38 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] DbgView on checked build (was:Re: softice
nms + DDK Suite)

LOL… “Worth Programmer’s Pain” – I love it.

Isn’t the “recoverable kernel ring buffer” in XP and later??
I seem to recall that it is, and accessable via the debugger
extension. Does it not work?? I haven’t actually tried to
recover one myself,

Peter
OSR

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online
at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

9

Ok, thanks for pushing me over the egde.
Do I need to wear a black latex suit for standing the
'W'hole 'P'orting 'P'ain ? ]->
Norbert.

"Ideas are one resource that you can never run out of."
---- snip ----

10

I think the more usual white hazmat suit would be sufficient.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Norbert Kawulski
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 5:19 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] DbgView on checked build (was:Re: softice nms + DDK
Suite)

Ok, thanks for pushing me over the egde.
Do I need to wear a black latex suit for standing the
'W'hole 'P'orting 'P'ain ? ]->
Norbert.

"Ideas are one resource that you can never run out of."
---- snip ----

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at