I realize this will be off-topic for some folks, but for the rest of you this is important news:
Steve Sinofsky is leaving MSFT to pursue “other interests” effective immediately.
You won’t see ME shed any tears over this one,
Peter
OSR
The question is “Will the new management be more open?” Can we hope for
a future when we have more meaningful interactions with the Windows
team? Where there are conferences with substance, and not the fluff of
Build?
Don Burn
Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr
“xxxxx@osr.com” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev:
> I realize this will be off-topic for some folks, but for the rest of you this is important news:
>
> Steve Sinofsky is leaving MSFT to pursue “other interests” effective immediately.
>
> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/11/steven-sinofsky-windows-president-leaving-microsoft-effective-immediately/
>
> You won’t see ME shed any tears over this one,
>
> Peter
> OSR
The only question is will this be too late to undo the massive damage he
has done.
Or, to rephrase that, “can I please have my start button back now?”.
Mark Roddy
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:10 AM, wrote:
> I realize this will be off-topic for some folks, but for the rest of you
> this is important news:
>
> Steve Sinofsky is leaving MSFT to pursue “other interests” effective
> immediately.
>
>
> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/11/steven-sinofsky-windows-president-leaving-microsoft-effective-immediately/
>
> You won’t see ME shed any tears over this one,
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
His successor apparently was leading the team that was responsible for
delivering the Office Ribbon controls, which in my book stands symbol for
change just for the sake of it as well as Microsoft’s high-level failure to
understand user needs, perhaps other than those of the most novice of users.
//Daniel
“Don Burn” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> The question is “Will the new management be more open?” Can we hope for a
> future when we have more meaningful interactions with the Windows team?
> Where there are conferences with substance, and not the fluff of Build?
>
>
> Don Burn
> Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
> Website: http://www.windrvr.com
> Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr
>
>
>
>
> “xxxxx@osr.com” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev:
>
>> I realize this will be off-topic for some folks, but for the rest of you
>> this is important news:
>>
>> Steve Sinofsky is leaving MSFT to pursue “other interests” effective
>> immediately.
>>
>> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/11/steven-sinofsky-windows-president-leaving-microsoft-effective-immediately/
>>
>> You won’t see ME shed any tears over this one,
>>
>> Peter
>> OSR
>
>
While I don’t like the ribbon or the lack of the start button (or the
inability to say login to desktop), I view all of these as symptoms not
the disease. The basic problem is not interacting with users and
vendors at all levels and the willingness to take feedback, even if in
the end you do not follow the feedback. The best of times for driver
developers was the early to mid-2000’s when our ideas were solicited and
welcomed. I believe that the folks we deal with directly such as Doron
are still concerned with our interests, but I got the impression from
many sources that Sinofsky did not give a damm for any input from less
than a multi-billion dollar firm.
Don Burn
Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr
“xxxxx@resplendence.com” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev:
> His successor apparently was leading the team that was responsible for
> delivering the Office Ribbon controls, which in my book stands symbol for
> change just for the sake of it as well as Microsoft’s high-level failure to
> understand user needs, perhaps other than those of the most novice of users.
>
> //Daniel
>
>
>
> “Don Burn” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > The question is “Will the new management be more open?” Can we hope for a
> > future when we have more meaningful interactions with the Windows team?
> > Where there are conferences with substance, and not the fluff of Build?
> >
> >
> > Don Burn
> > Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
> > Website: http://www.windrvr.com
> > Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > “xxxxx@osr.com” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev:
> >
> >> I realize this will be off-topic for some folks, but for the rest of you
> >> this is important news:
> >>
> >> Steve Sinofsky is leaving MSFT to pursue “other interests” effective
> >> immediately.
> >>
> >> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/11/steven-sinofsky-windows-president-leaving-microsoft-effective-immediately/
> >>
> >> You won’t see ME shed any tears over this one,
> >>
> >> Peter
> >> OSR
> >
> >
Don Burn wrote:
While I don’t like the ribbon or the lack of the start button (or the
inability to say login to desktop), I view all of these as symptoms not
the disease. The basic problem is not interacting with users and
vendors at all levels and the willingness to take feedback, even if in
the end you do not follow the feedback.
Yes. In the past, I have been somewhat of a cheerleader for Microsoft
in the Linux and open source forums, where Microsoft is often excoriated
(occasionally with good reason, but often without). One of my best
speeches talked about Microsoft investing many millions of dollars on
user interface studies and hidden camera usability laboratories, where
they watched real people actually USE their software. They learned what
worked and what didn’t work through direct empirical observation, and
they set their standards and feature sets based on that. This stood in
stark contrast to the Linux world, where many features get implemented
largely because they are “cool”. (Rotating flaming logos, anyone?)
I don’t give that speech so much any more. Over the past 5 years, it
seems to me that many new features are there because a programmer
thought they were cool, not because a usability study proved it was
better. I am still absolutely incredulous over the ALL CAPS menus in
Office 2012 and VS2012. I would love to see the report from the
usability study justifying that change, but I’m pretty confident there
isn’t one.
I find it significant that the new head of Windows engineering is a
woman. Software engineering has long been a field dominated by men.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
There were many UX studies done for the ribbon and the vs2012 UI
d
debt from my phone
From: Tim Roberts
Sent: 11/13/2012 9:12 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Big Shake-Up in Windows Division
Don Burn wrote:
While I don’t like the ribbon or the lack of the start button (or the
inability to say login to desktop), I view all of these as symptoms not
the disease. The basic problem is not interacting with users and
vendors at all levels and the willingness to take feedback, even if in
the end you do not follow the feedback.
Yes. In the past, I have been somewhat of a cheerleader for Microsoft
in the Linux and open source forums, where Microsoft is often excoriated
(occasionally with good reason, but often without). One of my best
speeches talked about Microsoft investing many millions of dollars on
user interface studies and hidden camera usability laboratories, where
they watched real people actually USE their software. They learned what
worked and what didn’t work through direct empirical observation, and
they set their standards and feature sets based on that. This stood in
stark contrast to the Linux world, where many features get implemented
largely because they are “cool”. (Rotating flaming logos, anyone?)
I don’t give that speech so much any more. Over the past 5 years, it
seems to me that many new features are there because a programmer
thought they were cool, not because a usability study proved it was
better. I am still absolutely incredulous over the ALL CAPS menus in
Office 2012 and VS2012. I would love to see the report from the
usability study justifying that change, but I’m pretty confident there
isn’t one.
I find it significant that the new head of Windows engineering is a
woman. Software engineering has long been a field dominated by men.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
And there was empirical evidence that shouting at the user with ALL CAPS MENUS was a net usability gain? That seems extremely hard to believe. Care to share real data on that?
Phil
Not speaking for LogRhythm
Phil Barila | Senior Software Engineer
720.881.5364 (w)
LogRhythm, Inc.
A LEADER 2012 SIEM Magic Quadrant
WINNER of SC Magazine’s 2012 SIEM Best Buy
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Doron Holan
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:16 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Big Shake-Up in Windows Division
There were many UX studies done for the ribbon and the vs2012 UI
d
debt from my phone
From: Tim Roberts
Sent: 11/13/2012 9:12 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Big Shake-Up in Windows Division
Don Burn wrote:
While I don’t like the ribbon or the lack of the start button (or the
inability to say login to desktop), I view all of these as symptoms not
the disease. The basic problem is not interacting with users and
vendors at all levels and the willingness to take feedback, even if in
the end you do not follow the feedback.
Yes. In the past, I have been somewhat of a cheerleader for Microsoft
in the Linux and open source forums, where Microsoft is often excoriated
(occasionally with good reason, but often without). One of my best
speeches talked about Microsoft investing many millions of dollars on
user interface studies and hidden camera usability laboratories, where
they watched real people actually USE their software. They learned what
worked and what didn’t work through direct empirical observation, and
they set their standards and feature sets based on that. This stood in
stark contrast to the Linux world, where many features get implemented
largely because they are “cool”. (Rotating flaming logos, anyone?)
I don’t give that speech so much any more. Over the past 5 years, it
seems to me that many new features are there because a programmer
thought they were cool, not because a usability study proved it was
better. I am still absolutely incredulous over the ALL CAPS menus in
Office 2012 and VS2012. I would love to see the report from the
usability study justifying that change, but I’m pretty confident there
isn’t one.
I find it significant that the new head of Windows engineering is a
woman. Software engineering has long been a field dominated by men.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.commailto:xxxxx
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer</mailto:xxxxx>
> You won’t see ME shed any tears over this one,
Would be good hunting practice if we get at least 1% who would be willing
the shed …
-pro
Heh… I’m sure there were studies, but Tim was asking for one “justifying that change” :). Just saying there were studies doesn’t mean they were supporting the changes…
I personally know of cases where the studies were ignored so as not to offend the VP that had the bright idea (using language like “the customers liked the changes you suggested the best from all the changes we showed them”, not mentioning that some 80+% of the customers didn’t like any change at all and preferred the current version).
Thanks,
Alex.
>Microsoft’s high-level failure to understand user needs, perhaps other than those of the most novice of users.
Sorry, but computer novices have always been their main target “audience”, right.When it comes to programming, their target “audience” is mainly .NET programmers. Historically Windows has always been cumbersome and unfriendly for both advanced programmers and advanced users.
If you feel somewhat uncomfortable/unhappy about it…well, just start looking elsewhere and investigating some other directions. I believe that, as long as you have programmer’s mind, rather than web designer’s one, this is the only way to go…
Anton Bassov
I can’t share data,but there was data on the all caps menu items and how that was perceived by users.
d
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Phil Barila
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:19 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Big Shake-Up in Windows Division
And there was empirical evidence that shouting at the user with ALL CAPS MENUS was a net usability gain? That seems extremely hard to believe. Care to share real data on that?
Phil
Not speaking for LogRhythm
Phil Barila | Senior Software Engineer
720.881.5364 (w)
LogRhythm, Inc.
A LEADER 2012 SIEM Magic Quadrant
WINNER of SC Magazine’s 2012 SIEM Best Buy
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.commailto:xxxxx [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Doron Holan
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:16 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Big Shake-Up in Windows Division
There were many UX studies done for the ribbon and the vs2012 UI
d
debt from my phone
________________________________
From: Tim Roberts
Sent: 11/13/2012 9:12 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Big Shake-Up in Windows Division
Don Burn wrote:
> While I don’t like the ribbon or the lack of the start button (or the
> inability to say login to desktop), I view all of these as symptoms not
> the disease. The basic problem is not interacting with users and
> vendors at all levels and the willingness to take feedback, even if in
> the end you do not follow the feedback.
Yes. In the past, I have been somewhat of a cheerleader for Microsoft
in the Linux and open source forums, where Microsoft is often excoriated
(occasionally with good reason, but often without). One of my best
speeches talked about Microsoft investing many millions of dollars on
user interface studies and hidden camera usability laboratories, where
they watched real people actually USE their software. They learned what
worked and what didn’t work through direct empirical observation, and
they set their standards and feature sets based on that. This stood in
stark contrast to the Linux world, where many features get implemented
largely because they are “cool”. (Rotating flaming logos, anyone?)
I don’t give that speech so much any more. Over the past 5 years, it
seems to me that many new features are there because a programmer
thought they were cool, not because a usability study proved it was
better. I am still absolutely incredulous over the ALL CAPS menus in
Office 2012 and VS2012. I would love to see the report from the
usability study justifying that change, but I’m pretty confident there
isn’t one.
I find it significant that the new head of Windows engineering is a
woman. Software engineering has long been a field dominated by men.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.commailto:xxxxx
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer</mailto:xxxxx></mailto:xxxxx>
> And there was empirical evidence that shouting at the user with ALL CAPS MENUS was a net usability gain?
Well, some people seem to love shouting in capitals (I don’t want to mention names - hopefully all long-standing list members know whom I mean). Probably this is where MSFT got its inspiration from…
Anton Bassov
Oh, bosh. “Take our word for it, users liked it better.” I expected better.
Phil
Not speaking for LogRhythm
Phil Barila | Senior Software Engineer
720.881.5364 (w)
LogRhythm, Inc.
A LEADER 2012 SIEM Magic Quadrant
WINNER of SC Magazine’s 2012 SIEM Best Buy
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Doron Holan
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:34 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Big Shake-Up in Windows Division
I can’t share data,but there was data on the all caps menu items and how that was perceived by users.
d
xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote:
> Microsoft’s high-level failure to understand user needs, perhaps other than those of the most novice of users.
Sorry, but computer novices have always been their main target “audience”, right.
Well, and justifiably so. There are more than a billion Windows
computers in the world today. How many of those are run by power users?
One in 100? One in 1,000?
To one decimal place, every Windows user is a novice. It makes
financial sense to invest where the users are.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
It’s not my data to share.
d
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Phil Barila
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:39 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Big Shake-Up in Windows Division
Oh, bosh. “Take our word for it, users liked it better.” I expected better.
Phil
Not speaking for LogRhythm
Phil Barila | Senior Software Engineer
720.881.5364 (w)
LogRhythm, Inc.
A LEADER 2012 SIEM Magic Quadrant
WINNER of SC Magazine’s 2012 SIEM Best Buy
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.commailto:xxxxx [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Doron Holan
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:34 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Big Shake-Up in Windows Division
I can’t share data,but there was data on the all caps menu items and how that was perceived by users.
d
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer</mailto:xxxxx>
“Tim Roberts” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>>> Microsoft’s high-level failure to understand user needs, perhaps other
>>> than those of the most novice of users.
>> Sorry, but computer novices have always been their main target
>> “audience”, right.
>
> Well, and justifiably so. There are more than a billion Windows
> computers in the world today. How many of those are run by power users?
> One in 100? One in 1,000?
>
> To one decimal place, every Windows user is a novice. It makes
> financial sense to invest where the users are.
>
The most novice of users is not the average one but someone able to follow
up basic instructions. With a ribbon interface, that means you have to get
down to the level in which you describe the shape of the icons and the
amount of space one should move with the mouse in order to find the group of
buttons in which one has to click.
//Daniel
> Well, and justifiably so.
Exactly…
Actually, this is the reason why I told Daniel to start looking elsewhere - indeed, from the business point of view it makes a perfect sense, so that it would be pretty naive to expect things to change in a way that programmers may find more attractive for themselves. Therefore, if you have a programmer’s mindset, apparently it would be better for you to start looking towards something that is normally described as “by programmers, for programmers”, don’t you think…
Anton Bassov
Only if “programming” is a hobby or art one pursues in and off itself. If
on the other hand one is programming in order to make a living, the
platform one is programming for (ignoring virtualization) is the platform
one is programming on.
Mark Roddy
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 1:07 PM, wrote:
> > Well, and justifiably so.
>
> Exactly…
>
>
> Actually, this is the reason why I told Daniel to start looking elsewhere
> - indeed, from the business point of view it makes a perfect sense, so that
> it would be pretty naive to expect things to change in a way that
> programmers may find more attractive for themselves. Therefore, if you
> have a programmer’s mindset, apparently it would be better for you to start
> looking towards something that is normally described as “by programmers,
> for programmers”, don’t you think…
>
>
> Anton Bassov
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
On 13-Nov-2012 19:45, Tim Roberts wrote:
To one decimal place, every Windows user is a novice. It makes
> financial sense to invest where the users are.
So exactly for these novices the Win8 “phony” look
can be more appealing than the classic dull desktop, no?
On 13-Nov-2012 19:18, Phil Barila wrote:
And there was empirical evidence that shouting at the user with ALL CAPS
MENUS was a net usability gain? That seems extremely hard to believe.
Care to share real data on that?
My guess is this may be cultural. Majority of
Windows users in the world (many of these are novices and many - developers)
do not belong to the Western culture at all;
for them, distinction between capital and small letters
may be less significant and useful than we think.
Regards,
– pa