Win 8.1 RTM not coming to MSDN until October 18th

NTDEV
21

I certainly agree, those Ads make me laugh each time I see them.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@flounder.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 4:20 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] Win 8.1 RTM not coming to MSDN until October 18th

I have to say I’m very disappointed in this post. Yet another
comparison of an IOS device and a full PC. I have a Surface Pro and
am able to do everything that my desktop can do. An iPad cannot
perform 1/10 of the tasks that my Surface Pro can. The discussion of
Office is moot since iPad comes with little or no productivity software.

What exactly was the point here? Surface RT sucks? Ok, I agree.
Surface Pro is more expensive than an iPad? Ok, a Porsche is more
expensive than a Kia, so?

My disappointment is that Microsoft advertises that the Surface comes with Office, and costs $299 compared to the $699 for an iPad. Now, I would be willing to spend $299 for a device that gave me full Office, which supported a Bluetooth keyboard, and let me do what I need to do. But I got a Word-compatible support program (DocumentsToGo) for $10, and, while it is missing a few key features I want, is highly cost-effective. What I am objecting to is the image that I could replace my iPad for $299, and when I go out to check the reality, I find out that this is in fact not true. I consider this dishonest.
joe

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
xxxxx@flounder.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:49 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Win 8.1 RTM not coming to MSDN until October 18th

I found myself yesterday at a Best Buy, picking up some small items.
As long as I was there, I decided to check out the Surface tablets,
since Microsoft has been pushing them so hard in comparison to iPads
(on which I am typing this right now). Of particular interest to me
was the “full Office” capability.

Well, the RT really sucks. Yes, it’s cheap, but it doesn’t run “full
Office” and can’t. In fact, the salesDroid explained, “It can’t run
programs, it can only only run apps. It doesn’t have enough space to
run programs”. I guess we’re not in Kansas anymore, since I have, for
years, harbored the delusion that “app”==“program”.

The iPad has Bluetooth capability, the Surface RT does not.
Therefore, I can use a real keyboard with tbe iPad, but I am
constrained to use the sucky RT keyboard-like interface (I’m not really into soft, furry keys.
But then again, I do not uderstand the ‘furry’ subculture)

The smallest Surface that can run Office goes for something like $800,
and although it can RUN Office, it doesn’t have Office INSTALLED. Oh,
it has a “preview” version, but this must be “upgraded” by buying a
full Office license for $400, or an Office/365 subscription for
$99/year. Bottom
line: what we see advertised on TV for $299 does not exist; the $299
toy is not what is promised. To get the capability comparable to my
$700 iPad would cost $1200, and that’s just the first-level buy-in.
Bait and Switch, big-time.

As I celebrate my 50th year in the profession, I am remided of the IBM
machine, a 360/30, we were quoted on by IBM back in the early 1960s.
Our RFQ gave a price point, and specified that COBOL was a
requirement. They met our price point, said that it could run COBOL
code, but neglected to point out that the COBOL compiler itself could
not run on that machine; we would need a machine two memory quanta
higher to run the compiler, even though the compiled code would run on
the machine we had been quoted. In those days, memory cost real
money, and two memory quanta higher nearly doubled our monthly lease cost. We went with Honeywell instead.

The more things change, the more they remain the same.
joe

> After the market failure of Windows RT and thus WinRT API, this
> seems to be true.
> “Gary Little” wrote in message
>> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>> I was thinking more along “The Treasure of Sierra Madre”
>>
>>
>> “Developers? Developers??? We don’ need no shtinking developers!!!”
>>
>>
>> Gary Little
>> xxxxx@comcast.net
>> C 952-454-4629
>> Tain’t what you want that makes you fat, it’s what you get.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 27, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Jan Bottorff
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I was just reading that Microsoft has decided developers who pay
>> for MSDN subscriptions should not get Windows 8.1 RTM until general
>> consumer release in October:
>>
>>
>> http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2013/08/27
>> / readying-windows-8-1-for-release.aspx
>>
>> I have to believe a decision like this comes from the highest
>> management at Microsoft. Say Steve B. whatever happened to
>> “Developers, Developers, Developers”?
>>
>> Jan
>>
>> —
>> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>>
>> Visit the list at:
>> http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
>>
>> OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
>>
>> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
>> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>>
>> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
>> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>>
>>
>> —
>> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>>
>> Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
>>
>> OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
>>
>> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
>> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>>
>> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
>> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
>
> OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
>
> OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

22

Yes, MSFT marketing should have concentrated on what the Surface can do, not what the iPad can’t.

A windows laptop at half the cost, would not come with Core i5, touchscreen, full HD (1920x1080) screen, and a 128GB SSD. I have a 11in Air (2011ish) and 13in (2012) air and no longer use either, they’ve gone off to wife and child land. The Surface Pro does take getting used to but on a plane, it’s unbeatable (the only time I’ve actually found a use for the included Pen).

I recognize that most of this is subjective, but the hardware specs are not.

I suppose I should redirect my rant to the MSFT Marketecture group for starting/feeding the iPad comparisons …

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Tim Roberts
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 4:29 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Win 8.1 RTM not coming to MSDN until October 18th

Speer, Kenny wrote:

Defend Apple? My position is contrary to that statement, but this sounds like a troll now.

That’s the danger of making terse statements. I would never have guessed from your initial objection that you were coming to the defense of the Surface Pro.

Surface Pro is more expensive because it offers more features and is much more productive than an iPad or Android tablet. They are not comparable at all even though comparisons are made way too often and usually by the Apple fanboy media.

Of course they are comparable, if for no other reason than Microsoft’s marketing department is TELLING us they are comparable.

For instance, my $1200 Surface pro is driving 2x 22" 1920x1080 monitors (via matrox dualhead2go) with visual studio, multiple debugging sessions, remote desktop to servers in lab, outlook and excel. Basically, it’s a full Windows PC, that is much more functionality than a $700 iPad.

It certainly is a full Windows PC, although you had to add a bunch of hardware to make that appear. Are you getting anything more than you would have had with a Windows laptop at less than half the cost?

I’m an advocate for Surface Pro being described for what it is and I’m tired of hearing about how it’s more expensive than an iPad.

Well, it IS more expensive than an iPad. Rightly or wrongly, Microsoft has aimed it squarely at the iPad, and it needs to compete there.

–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

23

(QUOTE)

But it is parodied in Blazing Saddles, arguably the greatest Hollywood
Western genre film ever made.
(/QUOTE)

Second best… After “The Terror of Tiny Town”

The key to happiness with the Surface Pro is to treat it specifically like an ultra-portable laptop with great performance, and not as your “fun” machine… And to keep you iPad as the device with which you have fun (at home, on the plane, at the hotel). As soon as I realized no Surface would ever be an iPad, I kicked my Surface RT and bought and fell in love with my Surface Pro.

Peter
OSR

Typed on an iPad, which is why the “quotes” above are in Arden’s and not angle brackets… Too many key presses to get to the angles on an iPad keyboard.

24

> The simulation of Office that I have on the iPad (DocumentsToGo)

has limitations, but in my poking around on the RT yesterday,
I could not find the features that I really needed.

Such as? I believe the only missing features in Office RT are things like macros/addins, and the equation editor.

And both Dell and Best Buy assured me that the RT did /not/ have
Bluetooth.

Surface RT does have Bluetooth, though I’m not sure why you would ask Dell about it, given that Surface is not made by Dell.

25

>> The simulation of Office that I have on the iPad (DocumentsToGo)

> has limitations, but in my poking around on the RT yesterday,
> I could not find the features that I really needed.

Such as? I believe the only missing features in Office RT are things like
macros/addins, and the equation editor.

> And both Dell and Best Buy assured me that the RT did /not/ have
> Bluetooth.

Surface RT does have Bluetooth, though I’m not sure why you would ask Dell
about it, given that Surface is not made by Dell.

Dell does make a low-end tablet that runs Windows 8. The problem was that
when I tried to search for detailed specs all I got was content-free
four-color-glossy promos.
joe

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

26

>Defend Apple? My position is contrary to that statement, but this sounds like a troll now. Surface

Pro is more expensive because it offers more features and is much more productive than an iPad or
Android tablet.

+100500 (the recent Russian internet mem)

Surface Pro is a full Windows laptop, just with detachable keyboard and a touch interface.

Surface RT is another song. One “con” item against them is… unique charger, not microUSB one. :slight_smile:

–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Microsoft MVP on File System And Storage
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

27

> I have to say I’m very disappointed in this post. Yet another comparison of an IOS device and a full PC.

…

I’m an advocate for Surface Pro being described for what it is and I’m tired of hearing about
how it’s more expensive than an iPad. This is the last forum I ever expected to see somebody
compare an iPad with a Surface Pro.

It looks like Max got a tough competitor for “MSFT fanboy of the decade” title, or probably even
for “MSFT fanboy of the century” one…

Anton Bassov

28

> It looks like Max got a tough competitor for “MSFT fanboy of the decade”

title, or probably even
for “MSFT fanboy of the century” one…

I’m not sure how you deduced that but ok, thanks for your completely useless comment.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-541056-
xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 7:45 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] Win 8.1 RTM not coming to MSDN until October 18th

> I have to say I’m very disappointed in this post. Yet another comparison of
an IOS device and a full PC.

…

> I’m an advocate for Surface Pro being described for what it is and I’m
> tired of hearing about how it’s more expensive than an iPad. This is
> the last forum I ever expected to see somebody compare an iPad with a
Surface Pro.

It looks like Max got a tough competitor for “MSFT fanboy of the decade”
title, or probably even
for “MSFT fanboy of the century” one…

Anton Bassov

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

29

Kenny wrote:

> It looks like Max got a tough competitor for “MSFT fanboy
> of the decade” title, or probably even for “MSFT fanboy of
> the century” one…

I’m not sure how you deduced that but ok, thanks for your
completely useless comment.

I don’t know, Kenny has yet to say Exchange is “the best software title of all time”, so in my book Max still holds the title.

P.S. it’s really Excel

30

>I don’t know, Kenny has yet to say Exchange is “the best software title of all time”, so in my book Max still holds the title.

I’m a let u finish, but… Well, yes, Excel is even great for prototyping some image/signal processing stuff. Which I did a few years ago. Very handy. Formulas and stuff.

31

I will go with excel too. I recently threw out a finished .NET reporting application in favor of excel.

P.S.
All my tools are for the support group.

32

Kenny,

I’m not sure how you deduced that but ok, thanks for your completely useless comment.

Well, I meant it to be just a friendly joke. If either you or Max somehow got offended by it I sincerely
apologize - I did not mean to offend either of you in any possible way…

Anton Bassov

33

Thanks Anton, no issues here, I was not offended, was just fighting fires all day and perhaps responded when I should have just smiled.

~kenny

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 8:13 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] Win 8.1 RTM not coming to MSDN until October 18th

Kenny,

I’m not sure how you deduced that but ok, thanks for your completely useless comment.

Well, I meant it to be just a friendly joke. If either you or Max somehow got offended by it I sincerely apologize - I did not mean to offend either of you in any possible way…

Anton Bassov

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

34

xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:

I will go with excel too. I recently threw out a finished .NET reporting application in favor of excel.

About 10 years ago, there was a survey done to figure out what
applications people used for holding databases. The number one database
application in the world was Excel, and by a wide margin.

–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

35

> The number one database application in the world was Excel, and by a wide margin

Well, I don’t know where you get your info from, but you obviously get it from the sources different from
the ones that Max relies upon - according to him, the most popular software title in this universe is Oracle running on Windows platform. Please note that I accept your claim without a slightest doubt - indeed, as long as we are speaking about a regular office PC user, Excel seems to be the most convenient option for storing small databases. However, when I hear about Oracle on Windows in this context…well, my only possible reaction to claims like that is ironical smile…

Anton Bassov

36

> the ones that Max relies upon - according to him, the most popular software title in this universe is

Oracle running on Windows platform.

This was told me in 2006, and this was about database server.

–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Microsoft MVP on File System And Storage
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

37

Microsoft listened, and altered course:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/stevengu/archive/2013/09/09/download-windows-8-1-rtm-visual-studio-2013-rc-and-windows-server-2012-r2-rtm-today.aspx

Phil

Not speaking for LogRhythm
Phil Barila | Senior Software Engineer
720.881.5364 (w)
LogRhythm, Inc.
A LEADER 2013 SIEM Magic Quadrant
Perfect 5-Star Rating in SC Magazine for 5 Consecutive Years

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Jan Bottorff
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:45 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Win 8.1 RTM not coming to MSDN until October 18th

I was just reading that Microsoft has decided developers who pay for MSDN subscriptions should not get Windows 8.1 RTM until general consumer release in October:

http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2013/08/27/readying-windows-8-1-for-release.aspx

I have to believe a decision like this comes from the highest management at Microsoft. Say Steve B. whatever happened to “Developers, Developers, Developers”?

Jan

NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev

OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer