Why is signing drivers such a mess?

NTDEV
61

You didn’t answer the question. Going through the thread the only
explicit answer I can find is so my printer doesn’t burst into flames.

I only read this list to grep for stuff MS won’t tell you.

If there is a secret way to make a printer burst into flames I will
certainly do it and film it for you. Maybe some hook so I can send a
5KV spike down the usb.

I’ve been writing drivers for 30 years and the best I’ve managed to do
maliciously was to blow a circuit breaker.

brucee

On 1/6/10, xxxxx@evitechnology.com wrote:
> I would say that it appears that no one has yet told you what you wanted to hear. It has been explained several times, by several different people, in a way that I agree with, not that that makes it either wrong or right.
>
> To be fair, you’ve also mentioned several times that you’re waiting for the printer to burst in to flames, so maybe you just like to repeat yourself and expect the same from others.
>
> Either way, do be sure to let us know if it happens.
>
>
> mm
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

62

Such places might not allow a piece of hardware of any kind to be installed on their computer
without a verifiable chain of liability, so they have names to to give their lawyers when it DOES burst into flames. Or, in a more likely scenario, when the printer driver uses 100% CPU for 9 hours and prevents
the payroll from being printed on time.

If you really don’t understand Tim’s point there, then apparently we don’t have what you’re looking for. Perhaps you should seek greener pastures.

mm

63

Bruce Ellis wrote:

You didn’t answer the question. Going through the thread the only
explicit answer I can find is so my printer doesn’t burst into flames.

No, that’s not what I said. The purpose for the signature is
liability. You are required to sign your printer drivers so that the
lawyers can find you **IF** your driver causes the printer to burst into
flames. The signature is not a promise of reliability. It does not a
promise that nothing bad will happen. What it does is guarantee that
you can be located IF something bad happens.

It’s no more complicated than that.

–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

64

Damn, I dinna understand that. I set my twit filter in Outlook to forward
your replys to my twit file. Didn’t work, so guess I’ll try one more time.
The rest of us “grokked” his remark when Tim mentioned printers bursting
into flames and CD’s being ejected fast enough to do bodily harm. The rest
of the list knows that he spoke with tongue in cheek. Sorry you missed it.
Printers bursting into flam is off topic. The topic is whar DRIVER SIGNING
is such a mess, NOT why your printer is in such a fucked up state.

Ok, off to expand my twit filter one more time.

The personal opinion of
Gary G. Little

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Ellis
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 4:22 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Why is signing drivers such a mess?

You didn’t answer the question. Going through the thread the only
explicit answer I can find is so my printer doesn’t burst into flames.

I only read this list to grep for stuff MS won’t tell you.

If there is a secret way to make a printer burst into flames I will
certainly do it and film it for you. Maybe some hook so I can send a
5KV spike down the usb.

I’ve been writing drivers for 30 years and the best I’ve managed to do
maliciously was to blow a circuit breaker.

brucee

On 1/6/10, xxxxx@evitechnology.com wrote:
> I would say that it appears that no one has yet told you what you wanted
to hear. It has been explained several times, by several different people,
in a way that I agree with, not that that makes it either wrong or right.
>
> To be fair, you’ve also mentioned several times that you’re waiting for
the printer to burst in to flames, so maybe you just like to repeat yourself
and expect the same from others.
>
> Either way, do be sure to let us know if it happens.
>
>
> mm
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4746 (20100105)

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com

Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4746 (20100105)

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com

65

Very intelligent reply. You are now amusing people on 3 continents!

I don’t know about the jurisprudence where any “experts” abode.

If my printer bursts into flames a signed driver doesn’t matter squat.

I sue the manufacturer - for incidental and consequential damages.

If they are asses we go to a higher court where my legal team will
call me as an expert witness, and we’ll go for punitive damage…

Please explain again how to get my printer to burst into flames. I’ll
do it now. If you are tongue in cheek then you have foot in mouth
disease.

brucee

On 1/6/10, Gary G. Little wrote:
> Damn, I dinna understand that. I set my twit filter in Outlook to forward
> your replys to my twit file. Didn’t work, so guess I’ll try one more time.
> The rest of us “grokked” his remark when Tim mentioned printers bursting
> into flames and CD’s being ejected fast enough to do bodily harm. The rest
> of the list knows that he spoke with tongue in cheek. Sorry you missed it.
> Printers bursting into flam is off topic. The topic is whar DRIVER SIGNING
> is such a mess, NOT why your printer is in such a fucked up state.
>
> Ok, off to expand my twit filter one more time.
>
> The personal opinion of
> Gary G. Little
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Ellis
> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 4:22 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re: [ntdev] Why is signing drivers such a mess?
>
> You didn’t answer the question. Going through the thread the only
> explicit answer I can find is so my printer doesn’t burst into flames.
>
> I only read this list to grep for stuff MS won’t tell you.
>
> If there is a secret way to make a printer burst into flames I will
> certainly do it and film it for you. Maybe some hook so I can send a
> 5KV spike down the usb.
>
> I’ve been writing drivers for 30 years and the best I’ve managed to do
> maliciously was to blow a circuit breaker.
>
> brucee
>
> On 1/6/10, xxxxx@evitechnology.com wrote:
> > I would say that it appears that no one has yet told you what you wanted
> to hear. It has been explained several times, by several different people,
> in a way that I agree with, not that that makes it either wrong or right.
> >
> > To be fair, you’ve also mentioned several times that you’re waiting for
> the printer to burst in to flames, so maybe you just like to repeat yourself
> and expect the same from others.
> >
> > Either way, do be sure to let us know if it happens.
> >
> >
> > mm
> >
> > —
> > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
> >
> > For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> > http://www.osr.com/seminars
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>
> Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
> database 4746 (20100105)
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
> database 4746 (20100105)
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

66

oops … i errantly typed the topic into google …

“Drunk driver crashes into Fairfield home, setting it on fire”.

i assure you that none of my drivers are imbibing.

brucee

On 1/6/10, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> Very intelligent reply. You are now amusing people on 3 continents!
>
> I don’t know about the jurisprudence where any “experts” abode.
>
> If my printer bursts into flames a signed driver doesn’t matter squat.
>
> I sue the manufacturer - for incidental and consequential damages.
>
> If they are asses we go to a higher court where my legal team will
> call me as an expert witness, and we’ll go for punitive damage…
>
> Please explain again how to get my printer to burst into flames. I’ll
> do it now. If you are tongue in cheek then you have foot in mouth
> disease.
>
> brucee
>
> On 1/6/10, Gary G. Little wrote:
> > Damn, I dinna understand that. I set my twit filter in Outlook to forward
> > your replys to my twit file. Didn’t work, so guess I’ll try one more time.
> > The rest of us “grokked” his remark when Tim mentioned printers bursting
> > into flames and CD’s being ejected fast enough to do bodily harm. The rest
> > of the list knows that he spoke with tongue in cheek. Sorry you missed it.
> > Printers bursting into flam is off topic. The topic is whar DRIVER SIGNING
> > is such a mess, NOT why your printer is in such a fucked up state.
> >
> > Ok, off to expand my twit filter one more time.
> >
> > The personal opinion of
> > Gary G. Little
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Ellis
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 4:22 PM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: Re: [ntdev] Why is signing drivers such a mess?
> >
> > You didn’t answer the question. Going through the thread the only
> > explicit answer I can find is so my printer doesn’t burst into flames.
> >
> > I only read this list to grep for stuff MS won’t tell you.
> >
> > If there is a secret way to make a printer burst into flames I will
> > certainly do it and film it for you. Maybe some hook so I can send a
> > 5KV spike down the usb.
> >
> > I’ve been writing drivers for 30 years and the best I’ve managed to do
> > maliciously was to blow a circuit breaker.
> >
> > brucee
> >
> > On 1/6/10, xxxxx@evitechnology.com wrote:
> > > I would say that it appears that no one has yet told you what you wanted
> > to hear. It has been explained several times, by several different people,
> > in a way that I agree with, not that that makes it either wrong or right.
> > >
> > > To be fair, you’ve also mentioned several times that you’re waiting for
> > the printer to burst in to flames, so maybe you just like to repeat yourself
> > and expect the same from others.
> > >
> > > Either way, do be sure to let us know if it happens.
> > >
> > >
> > > mm
> > >
> > > —
> > > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
> > >
> > > For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> > > http://www.osr.com/seminars
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> > >
> >
> > —
> > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
> >
> > For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> > http://www.osr.com/seminars
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
> >
> > Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
> > database 4746 (20100105)
> >
> > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
> >
> > http://www.eset.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
> > database 4746 (20100105)
> >
> > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
> >
> > http://www.eset.com
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
> >
> > For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> > http://www.osr.com/seminars
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
>

67

> Such places might not allow a piece of hardware of any kind to be installed on their computer

without a verifiable chain of liability, so they have names to to give their lawyers when it
DOES burst into flames.

Actually, you have raised an interesting question…

IIRC, according to most EULAs in existence, software writer disclaims any liability for any damages that may result from the use of his software.

What makes software so basically different in respect of liability for potential damages from all other stuff that you buy??? How come that writer of some crappy, say, AV that destroys data few hundreds K or even few M worth is allowed to disclaim liability for it while coffee machine’s producer cannot disclaim liability for fire that his machine may cause???

I just wonder where we legally stand here, and whether EULA has any legally binding force, in the first place…

Anton Bassov

68

AFAIK, no court in the U.S.A has said that EULAs are valid contracts. In
many states certain damages cannot waived by an EULA and I think in a few,
even by contract. I have heard that a good lawyer can get clauses that
waive liability declared invalid if one party is a greater position of
power. I am not a lawyer and would never want to be one, but I have learned
that if you pick the right judge and jurisdiction you can get green declared
to be pink (or get OJ off).

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>> Such places might not allow a piece of hardware of any kind to be
>> installed on their computer
>> without a verifiable chain of liability, so they have names to to give
>> their lawyers when it
>> DOES burst into flames.
>
> Actually, you have raised an interesting question…
>
>
> IIRC, according to most EULAs in existence, software writer disclaims any
> liability for any damages that may result from the use of his software.
>
> What makes software so basically different in respect of liability for
> potential damages from all other stuff that you buy??? How come that
> writer of some crappy, say, AV that destroys data few hundreds K or even
> few M worth is allowed to disclaim liability for it while coffee machine’s
> producer cannot disclaim liability for fire that his machine may cause???
>
>
> I just wonder where we legally stand here, and whether EULA has any
> legally binding force, in the first place…
>
> Anton Bassov
>

69

>

AFAIK, no court in the U.S.A has said that EULAs are valid contracts.
In
many states certain damages cannot waived by an EULA and I think in a
few,
even by contract. I have heard that a good lawyer can get clauses
that
waive liability declared invalid if one party is a greater position of
power. I am not a lawyer and would never want to be one, but I have
learned
that if you pick the right judge and jurisdiction you can get green
declared
to be pink (or get OJ off).

I think that’s approximately the same in Australia. A shop can’t deny
you a refund even if they have a sign out the front that says “No
Refunds”. And I think if they make you sign a contract that says you
give up the right to seek a refund, that contract is void anyway as it
is going against the law. I’m not a lawyer of course, and with a
creative lawyer and a judge who’s not paying attention you might be able
to get away with a lot of things…

James

70

Guess what? I’m in Australia and know the law well.

Thank you all for the thread. I’m passing it on to Mark V. Shaney, the
corpus is large enough for him to have a good chew.

And what the flying fig does this have to do with EULAs?

I’ll sign anything that isn’t legally binding.

brucee

On 1/6/10, James Harper wrote:
> >
> > AFAIK, no court in the U.S.A has said that EULAs are valid contracts.
> In
> > many states certain damages cannot waived by an EULA and I think in a
> few,
> > even by contract. I have heard that a good lawyer can get clauses
> that
> > waive liability declared invalid if one party is a greater position of
> > power. I am not a lawyer and would never want to be one, but I have
> learned
> > that if you pick the right judge and jurisdiction you can get green
> declared
> > to be pink (or get OJ off).
> >
>
> I think that’s approximately the same in Australia. A shop can’t deny
> you a refund even if they have a sign out the front that says “No
> Refunds”. And I think if they make you sign a contract that says you
> give up the right to seek a refund, that contract is void anyway as it
> is going against the law. I’m not a lawyer of course, and with a
> creative lawyer and a judge who’s not paying attention you might be able
> to get away with a lot of things…
>
> James
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

71

This thread has blown MY circuit breaker for being off topic, annoying, and stupid.

THREAD LOCKED.

Peter
OSR