>There are many examples of VS project management issues. Start with the
fact that by default VS opens every project in a solution in the solution
explorer view right down to every leaf node in that view. Now ask how that
scales to large projects. I’ve >worked on projects where a decision to close
VS was considered very carefully because of the cost of re-opening it.
+1. Very irritating
How about this use case: I want to add a new project ‘created from existing
files’ to an existing VS solution. I can do that from my existing VS
session, but VS in its infinite wisdom closes that solution for me and
creates a new solution for this new project. I >then have to close that
solution, re-open the original one, find the project file and add it to the
solution. Now suppose I have several such new projects to add in. Why is
this idiocy forced on me?
Also tries to create a directory for you as well.
Far too much ‘automagic’ going on in VS, in my opinion.
The dependency tracking/build order stuff can be truly disasterous in a big
project, IMO. To be fair, it didn’t work at all in build.
mm
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roddy
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:40 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: Re:[ntdev] What we know about Windows 8
The cost has gone up from zero to whatever the cost of the correct version
of VS is, and that is somewhere around 1,000. That is just a fact. Prior to
this release the minimal development cost was zero, with the release of WIn8
it will be around 1,000 per developer.
There are many examples of VS project management issues. Start with the fact
that by default VS opens every project in a solution in the solution
explorer view right down to every leaf node in that view. Now ask how that
scales to large projects. I’ve worked on projects where a decision to close
VS was considered very carefully because of the cost of re-opening it.
How about this use case: I want to add a new project ‘created from existing
files’ to an existing VS solution. I can do that from my existing VS
session, but VS in its infinite wisdom closes that solution for me and
creates a new solution for this new project. I then have to close that
solution, re-open the original one, find the project file and add it to the
solution. Now suppose I have several such new projects to add in. Why is
this idiocy forced on me?
If anyone can explain the Configuration Manager such that it makes any sense
at all…
I can go on.
As I said at the outset, I think there are clear disadvantages to this
approach but I will evaluate it on its merits and if I am convinced that
overall it is a positive step I will change my opinion.
Mark Roddy
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 1:52 AM, Doron Holan
wrote:
> 1 not true. The cost has not gone up by that much. ?The plan is that
> there will be licensing for build servers
>
> 2 how so?
>
> 3 msbuild is important enough to msft that we are publishing books and
continuously investing in it (blogs, forums, etc). How many books on
build.exe do you see ? build is just as complex, probably even more so, that
msbuild, but I think in part b/c it is newer and not an area of expertise,
it is looked at with disdain or “not good enough for me” without a good
evaluation first. If the vast majority of Microsoft is internally using
msbuild, it can’t be that bad ;). ?As for re engineering your build system,
we have worked with lots of companies so far and worked out a decent number
of the conversion kinks and we welcome all bugs and feedback.
>
> d (if you couldn’t tell, the WDK dev lead 
)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roddy
> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 5:27 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re: Re:[ntdev] What we know about Windows 8
>
> While this might seem an odd position for me to take, given that I have
championed integration of Visual Studio with the DDK build system for last
17 years. but I think this change has a lot of disadvantages.
>
> 1. cost - the WDK toolset has gone from free to $x,000,00/per seat.
> That ‘seat’ probably includes a seat for the build system that creates
official builds for your organization in addition to the per developer cost.
>
> 2. project management in visual studio has traditionally been pretty much
a nightmare. Why should I expect anything different in v.11?
>
> 3. re-engineering of our build systems to work with this toolchain.
> And that integration is complex enough to come with a suggestion to read
at least two books on the subject.
>
> I’m sure this list is just a start. On the positive side if in fact the
added benefit in terms of integrated bells and whistles is substantial
enough I am prepared to change my opinion.
>
> Mark Roddy
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Doron Holan
wrote:
>> I am sure the out of the gate plan is not to update often, if at all.
Updates are not cheap.
>>
>> d
>>
>> debt from my phone
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vodicka, Michal
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 5:09 PM
>> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
>> Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] What we know about Windows 8
>>
>>
>> Thanks. But VS compiler is updated rather frequently or at least was in
the past and maybe even without developer’s knowledge (automatic updates).
Is there any way how to ensure only RTM version is used for driver builds?
Otherwise it looks like big step back to 1996 (or so).
>>
>> Michal
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-474398-
>>> xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Doron Holan
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:04 AM
>>> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
>>> Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] What we know about Windows 8
>>>
>>> Compiler and linker is from VS. ?Same as the SDK. ?The WDK will no
>>> longer package any build tools, all of them come VS now. that means
>>> it is an RTM compiler supported and serviced by VS.
>>>
>>> d
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-474397-
>>> xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Vodicka, Michal
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 5:01 PM
>>> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
>>> Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] What we know about Windows 8
>>>
>>> What about the compiler and linker? Special WDK version as before or
>>> random one from VS installation?
>>>
>>> Michal
>>>
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-474389-
>>> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Doron Holan
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 1:17 AM
>>> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
>>> > Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] What we know about Windows 8
>>> >
>>> > Yes, the WDK will require vs.next for command line (msbuild based)
builds.
>>> > The oldest supported OS is vista/windows2008sp2
>>> >
>>> > d
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-474384-
>>> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
>>> > Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 4:08 PM
>>> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
>>> > Subject: Re:[ntdev] What we know about Windows 8
>>> >
>>> > ? ? Will VS.Next be mandatory for command-line builds?
>>> >
>>> > ? ? What will be the oldest OS still supported by Win8 WDK stuff?
>>> >
>>> > –
>>> > Maxim S. Shatskih
>>> > Windows DDK MVP
>>> > xxxxx@storagecraft.com
>>> > http://www.storagecraft.com
>>> >
>>> >
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>>
>> NOTE: The information in this message is intended for the personal and
confidential use of the designated recipient(s) named above. To the extent
the recipient(s) is/are bound by a non-disclosure agreement, or other
agreement that contains an obligation of confidentiality, with AuthenTec,
then this message and/or any attachments shall be considered confidential
information and subject to the confidentiality terms of that agreement. ?If
the reader of this message is not the intended recipient named above, you
are notified that you have received this document in error, and any review,
dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this document in error, please delete the
original message and notify the sender immediately.
>> Thank You!
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>>
>>
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>> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>>
>> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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>
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>
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So much unnecessary work…