Visual Studio 2005

NTDEV
1

Given all the admonitions in this news group to use the DDK tools to
build drivers, I thought this was interesting. On the “Purchasing
Guide” page for Visual Studio 2005
(http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/howtobuy/guide/), there’s this one
(about mid-way down the page):

Hi, I’m Dave. I’m responsible for building device drivers
for a hardware manufacturing company

The compiler and tools in Visual Studio 2005 make my code
faster, more efficient, and more secure. New compiler options
help me protect my drivers and applications from vulnerabilities
related to buffer overrun situations and new security tools
built into Visual Studio 2005 will analyze my code so that I can
find potential problems before I even test.

Visual Studio 2005 Standard Edition >>

It’s no wonder the question has been asked a lot recently :slight_smile:

Is this a case of the left and right hands not talking to each other, or
is it the shape of things to come?

Cheers,

– mkj

//
// Michael K. Jones
// Stone Hill Consulting, LLC
// http://www.stonehill.com
//_______________________________________________

2

I’d say it’s a case of marketroids doing what they do best: Saying stuff they don’t really understand and that’s might be technically true enough but pointless.

The “new compiler options” in VS 2005 have been in the DDK/WDK for a couple of years now.

If the marketeers would just stop trying to create “compelling use cases” for stuff that they don’t understand, the entire world would be better off.

Peter
OSR

3

I think a lot of people (inside Microsoft and out) refer to cl 14.x
as “Visual Studio 2005”. That could explain some of this.

-sd

On Nov 15, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Michael Jones wrote:

Given all the admonitions in this news group to use the DDK tools
to build drivers, I thought this was interesting. On the
“Purchasing Guide” page for Visual Studio 2005 (http://
msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/howtobuy/guide/), there’s this one
(about mid-way down the page):

Hi, I’m Dave. I’m responsible for building device drivers
for a hardware manufacturing company

The compiler and tools in Visual Studio 2005 make my code
faster, more efficient, and more secure. New compiler options
help me protect my drivers and applications from vulnerabilities
related to buffer overrun situations and new security tools
built into Visual Studio 2005 will analyze my code so that I can
find potential problems before I even test.

Visual Studio 2005 Standard Edition >>

It’s no wonder the question has been asked a lot recently :slight_smile:

Is this a case of the left and right hands not talking to each
other, or is it the shape of things to come?

Cheers,

– mkj

//
// Michael K. Jones
// Stone Hill Consulting, LLC
// http://www.stonehill.com
//_______________________________________________

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://
www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

4

The WDK is up to the VS2005 compiler level, in fact the version is just slightly newer and the build environments are setup to use buffer security checks. So the latest in optimization and security is being fully utilized with the advent of the WDK (albeit a year later). The thing that is attractive about VS2005 is the powerful source browsing capabilities. You can click on the usage of a function, #define, or structure and it brings you right to the definition. It makes for more rapid development.

The WDK unfortunately also picked up the dog slow and cumbersome help system in VS2005. I kid you not, it takes fully 20 seconds just to load and is harder to use. I have not discovered any advantages to it. I liked the “old” help in earlier DDK’s so much better!

eof

5

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> The WDK unfortunately also picked up the dog slow and cumbersome help
> system in VS2005. I kid you not, it takes fully 20 seconds just to load
> and is harder to use. I have not discovered any advantages to it. I liked
> the “old” help in earlier DDK’s so much better!
>
You are right about the crappy help. The new system has a search that is
20 times slower than the old one. Add to that the “new improved” index
model, where you select an API and it gives you a second list of topics
that use the API, and you then have to go and find that actual API
documentation in the list. It is no wonder that I have seen postings by
multiple MVP’s that say “everytime Microsoft touches the help system they
make it worse”

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
http://www.windrvr.com
Remove StopSpam from the email to reply

6

Hands up anyone who still uses the VS2005 help. It’s quicker to google. (I
occasionally race them when I forget and hit help - no contest - I wonder
what it’s actually doing with all my CPU cycles). The VS2003 help got quite
good at one stage - Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Burn
Newsgroups: ntdev
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 1:17 PM
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Visual Studio 2005

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> The WDK unfortunately also picked up the dog slow and cumbersome help
> system in VS2005. I kid you not, it takes fully 20 seconds just to load
> and is harder to use. I have not discovered any advantages to it. I liked
> the “old” help in earlier DDK’s so much better!
>
You are right about the crappy help. The new system has a search that is
20 times slower than the old one. Add to that the “new improved” index
model, where you select an API and it gives you a second list of topics
that use the API, and you then have to go and find that actual API
documentation in the list. It is no wonder that I have seen postings by
multiple MVP’s that say “everytime Microsoft touches the help system they
make it worse”

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
http://www.windrvr.com
Remove StopSpam from the email to reply

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

7

I was starting too think I was the only one that didn’t like it. Nice
too see other people feel the same.

My question is why did they change it? Is there a technical reason or is
this the
work of a disgruntled employee that didn’t have enough too do?

m.

Don Burn wrote:

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
>
>>The WDK unfortunately also picked up the dog slow and cumbersome help
>>system in VS2005. I kid you not, it takes fully 20 seconds just to load
>>and is harder to use. I have not discovered any advantages to it. I liked
>>the “old” help in earlier DDK’s so much better!
>>
>>
>>
>You are right about the crappy help. The new system has a search that is
>20 times slower than the old one. Add to that the “new improved” index
>model, where you select an API and it gives you a second list of topics
>that use the API, and you then have to go and find that actual API
>documentation in the list. It is no wonder that I have seen postings by
>multiple MVP’s that say “everytime Microsoft touches the help system they
>make it worse”
>
>
>
>

8

“Don Burn” wrote:

> You are right about the crappy help. The new system has a search that is
> 20 times slower than the old one. Add to that the “new improved” index
> model, where you select an API and it gives you a second list of topics
> that use the API, and you then have to go and find that actual API
> documentation in the list. It is no wonder that I have seen postings by
> multiple MVP’s that say “everytime Microsoft touches the help system they
> make it worse”

My biggest and perhaps only gripe about the new help system is that
even with Document Explorer 2005 installed, I’ve found it impossible
to devise a way to just go double-click on one of the help files and
open in up.

Up until now, I’ve had an archive of prior SDKs and DDKs dating back
into NT 3.51. And yes, for reasons that should have been made illegal
and punishable by death, I’ve actually had to refer to the NT 3.51 DDK
documentation on more than one occasion.

But I don’t “install” any of these DDKs or SDKs. I just need to refer
back to what documentation was correct and/or in effect at the time.

I have in fact seen a somewhat reasonable third-party utility for
opening up the new help system files (H2 Viewer from The Helpware
Group, http://helpware.net/mshelp2/h2viewer.htm) which just
temporarily registers the file you selected “as a collection” so that
it can be viewed.

But the idea that we want to make API documentation and help this
difficult to get to is just patently absurd. (Hey, who put this
soapbox here.)

Alan Adams

9

“Michael Jones” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Given all the admonitions in this news group to use the DDK tools to build drivers, I thought this was interesting. On the
> “Purchasing Guide” page for Visual Studio 2005 (http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/howtobuy/guide/), there’s this one (about
> mid-way down the page):
>
> Hi, I’m Dave. I’m responsible for building device drivers
> for a hardware manufacturing company
>
> The compiler and tools in Visual Studio 2005 make my code
> faster, more efficient, and more secure.

Hi, I’m Pavel :slight_smile: I, too, deal mainly with drivers and mainly use
the WDK build.
However, this job involves some user mode development, and
for that I’m using VS2005. It has everything to do plain old win32
console apps and DLLs, x64, .NET, WinCE apps and some types
of WinCE device drivers.
Now I don’t need a separate copy of eVC for WinCE projects, and BC
Builder for GUI. Oh, have I mentioned UMDF drivers? :))

> Is this a case of the left and right hands not talking to each other, or is it the shape of things to come?

Definitely, the second. All kernel devs these days do more
or less of their work in user mode, so.they need both their hands :wink:

About the help - can’t agree more. Search in online MSDN or Google sometimes brings results faster.

Regards,
–PA

10

xxxxx@email.com wrote:

The WDK unfortunately also picked up the dog slow and cumbersome help system in VS2005. I kid you not, it takes fully 20 seconds just to load and is harder to use. I have not discovered any advantages to it. I liked the “old” help in earlier DDK’s so much better!

Amen to that. Even though I have the 6000 DDK loaded, I still bring up
the 3790.1830 help files when I have a question. The new help system is
a huge step backwards. This is a case where Microsoft has forgotten
Occam’s razor: “All other things being equal, the simplest solution
tends to be the best solution.”

–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

11

I assume all of you folks already went to VS2005 help Tools!Options & set help to local only?

I seem to recall the default setting is to do one or more online queries for each help query.

12

Yep, it is “local only” and the best speed of the search is 20 times worse
than the previous version (I have measured as much as 100 times slower).
Throw in the amount of wasted vertical space by the way they present
things, and the crap of having another window at the bottom of the screen
for index to actual page stuff and things are really painful.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
http://www.windrvr.com
Remove StopSpam from the email to reply

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>I assume all of you folks already went to VS2005 help Tools!Options & set
>help to local only?
>
> I seem to recall the default setting is to do one or more online
> queries for each help query.
>

13

I prefer to use the index, with a little training, you can find what you
want extremely quickly with it (compared to the indeed slow search).

As for VS2005 the interface rocks as well as the look up features, but it’s
really slow… A C++ meta programming project generally kills the lookup
engine and slows down the whole beast to a crawl. I’ve also experienced lock
ups during debugging for no apparent reason.

The other problem is that the program seems to be based on .NET and
therefore uses ‘that’ garbage collector. Why people use garbage collectors
when they have smart pointers is beyond me… Anyways, this results in
massive memory usage until exhaustion, then intensive CPU usage and
hopefully some memory available afterward… :s

However the C++ compiler is of very high quality. I really like the progress
that has been made toward compliance. Globally I really enjoy VS2005 but I
would like to have these performance issues addressed, I don’t think it’s
normal to experience slowdowns on a dual-opteron with 2GB of RAM.

Hopefully a service pack is arriving soon and I’ve heard it fixes some
slowness issues in the IDE, but I tend to hear voices anyways.

–

EA

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-270172-
xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 20:06
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Visual Studio 2005

Yep, it is “local only” and the best speed of the search is 20 times
worse than the previous version (I have measured as much as 100 times
slower).
Throw in the amount of wasted vertical space by the way they present
things, and the crap of having another window at the bottom of the
screen for index to actual page stuff and things are really painful.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
http://www.windrvr.com Remove StopSpam from the email to reply

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >I assume all of you folks already went to VS2005 help Tools!Options &
> set
> >help to local only?
> >
> > I seem to recall the default setting is to do one or more online
> > queries for each help query.
> >
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

14

“Edouard A.” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>I prefer to use the index, with a little training, you can find what you
> want extremely quickly with it (compared to the indeed slow search).
>
> As for VS2005 the interface rocks as well as the look up features, but
> it’s
> really slow… A C++ meta programming project generally kills the lookup
> engine and slows down the whole beast to a crawl. I’ve also experienced
> lock
> ups during debugging for no apparent reason.
>
Sorry but the interface SUCKS!!! The fact that after years where the
index took you to the topic you chose, and now takes you to a ton of things
that reference the topic is stupid. If they wanted to have such a
capability they should have had a seperate concept.

The biggest problem with Microsoft’s recent user interfaces is they take
tons of vertical for their controls and panels. I know a lot of good
developers who are perhaps not page at a glance reader but who can scan a
page quicky for the data they want. With the new user interfaces and the
search formating you are forever scrolling and taking time to find the data
you want. I know my productivity with the new interfaces is much lower
than the old.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
http://www.windrvr.com
Remove StopSpam from the email to reply

15

I believe Edouard was referring to the VS2005 user interface and not to
the crappy document exploder help that everything new and Microsoft is
now afflicted with. The VS2005 user interface in general is much
improved over its earlier incarnations, in my opinion. Help however is
clearly beyond help.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 4:28 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Visual Studio 2005

“Edouard A.” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>I prefer to use the index, with a little training, you can find what
you
> want extremely quickly with it (compared to the indeed slow search).
>
> As for VS2005 the interface rocks as well as the look up features, but

> it’s
> really slow… A C++ meta programming project generally kills the
lookup
> engine and slows down the whole beast to a crawl. I’ve also
experienced
> lock
> ups during debugging for no apparent reason.
>
Sorry but the interface SUCKS!!! The fact that after years where the
index took you to the topic you chose, and now takes you to a ton of
things
that reference the topic is stupid. If they wanted to have such a
capability they should have had a seperate concept.

The biggest problem with Microsoft’s recent user interfaces is they take

tons of vertical for their controls and panels. I know a lot of good
developers who are perhaps not page at a glance reader but who can scan
a
page quicky for the data they want. With the new user interfaces and
the
search formating you are forever scrolling and taking time to find the
data
you want. I know my productivity with the new interfaces is much lower
than the old.

–
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
http://www.windrvr.com
Remove StopSpam from the email to reply

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

16

On 11/16/06, xxxxx@email.com wrote:
>
> The WDK is up to the VS2005 compiler level, in fact the version is just
> slightly newer and the build environments are setup to use buffer security
> checks. So the latest in optimization and security is being fully utilized
> with the advent of the WDK (albeit a year later). The thing that is
> attractive about VS2005 is the powerful source browsing capabilities. You
> can click on the usage of a function, #define, or structure and it brings
> you right to the definition. It makes for more rapid development.

Try Visual Assist X. The fun thing about it is, that it does not require
browse files and its capabilities are far beyond Intellisense, for example.
This extension is essential for driver developers, IMO.

Oliver

–
May the source be with you, stranger … :wink:

17

It is absurd, but it also really irritating. I use the FAR product
also, for the same reason.

mm

>> alanadams@dr.com 2006-11-16 11:51 >>>
“Don Burn” wrote:

> You are right about the crappy help. The new system has a search
that is
> 20 times slower than the old one. Add to that the “new improved”
index
> model, where you select an API and it gives you a second list of
topics
> that use the API, and you then have to go and find that actual API
> documentation in the list. It is no wonder that I have seen postings
by
> multiple MVP’s that say “everytime Microsoft touches the help system
they
> make it worse”

My biggest and perhaps only gripe about the new help system is that
even with Document Explorer 2005 installed, I’ve found it impossible
to devise a way to just go double-click on one of the help files and
open in up.

Up until now, I’ve had an archive of prior SDKs and DDKs dating back
into NT 3.51. And yes, for reasons that should have been made illegal
and punishable by death, I’ve actually had to refer to the NT 3.51 DDK
documentation on more than one occasion.

But I don’t “install” any of these DDKs or SDKs. I just need to refer
back to what documentation was correct and/or in effect at the time.

I have in fact seen a somewhat reasonable third-party utility for
opening up the new help system files (H2 Viewer from The Helpware
Group, http://helpware.net/mshelp2/h2viewer.htm) which just
temporarily registers the file you selected “as a collection” so that
it can be viewed.

But the idea that we want to make API documentation and help this
difficult to get to is just patently absurd. (Hey, who put this
soapbox here.)

Alan Adams

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

18

Yes, I was referring to the IDE. I agree with you the help interface isn’t
very good. You need to apply a filter before… snore… Why no context
help? When I use an API, the help should be one click away. Like it creates
an hyperlink on known function, you click on it => help.

–

EA

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-270185-
xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Roddy, Mark
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 22:42
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Visual Studio 2005

I believe Edouard was referring to the VS2005 user interface and not to
the crappy document exploder help that everything new and Microsoft is
now afflicted with. The VS2005 user interface in general is much
improved over its earlier incarnations, in my opinion. Help however is
clearly beyond help.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 4:28 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Visual Studio 2005

“Edouard A.” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >I prefer to use the index, with a little training, you can find what
> you
> > want extremely quickly with it (compared to the indeed slow search).
> >
> > As for VS2005 the interface rocks as well as the look up features,
> but
>
> > it’s
> > really slow… A C++ meta programming project generally kills the
> lookup
> > engine and slows down the whole beast to a crawl. I’ve also
> experienced
> > lock
> > ups during debugging for no apparent reason.
> >
> Sorry but the interface SUCKS!!! The fact that after years where the
> index took you to the topic you chose, and now takes you to a ton of
> things that reference the topic is stupid. If they wanted to have such
> a capability they should have had a seperate concept.
>
> The biggest problem with Microsoft’s recent user interfaces is they
> take
>
> tons of vertical for their controls and panels. I know a lot of good
> developers who are perhaps not page at a glance reader but who can scan
> a page quicky for the data they want. With the new user interfaces and
> the search formating you are forever scrolling and taking time to find
> the data you want. I know my productivity with the new interfaces is
> much lower than the old.
>
>
> –
> Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
> Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
> http://www.windrvr.com Remove StopSpam from the email to reply
>
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

19

“Edouard A.” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Yes, I was referring to the IDE. I agree with you the help interface isn’t
> very good. You need to apply a filter before… snore… Why no context
> help? When I use an API, the help should be one click away. Like it creates
> an hyperlink on known function, you click on it => help.

Are you really going to put Visual Assist out of business?

The context help seems to work with C#, perhaps for this to work, called functions
must have the XML documentation.

–PA

20

Ah, as I suspected, we are being forced remorselessly to the MS proprietary
languages and it gets increasingly difficult to use industry standard C,
C++. Sad that languages that are cross platform and have been designed by
brilliant academics are likely to disappear and we will all have to use MS
languages which I bet are not licensed for developing anything that
competes!.. Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Pavel A.
Newsgroups: ntdev
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 12:06 AM
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Visual Studio 2005

“Edouard A.” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Yes, I was referring to the IDE. I agree with you the help interface isn’t
> very good. You need to apply a filter before… snore… Why no context
> help? When I use an API, the help should be one click away. Like it
> creates
> an hyperlink on known function, you click on it => help.

Are you really going to put Visual Assist out of business?

The context help seems to work with C#, perhaps for this to work, called
functions
must have the XML documentation.

–PA

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer