> That’s like saying, “Human beings have nothing to do with apes.”
No, this is like saying cars have nothing to do with computers.
Take a look at COM on Wikipedia, and see how .NET and OLE are related.
What is .NET? a CLR for the first time. Managed code execution environment and
several OO language compilers for it. It is kinda “Microsoft Java”.
What is COM? OO RPC mainly. Developed 10 years before CLR and does not assume
managed code.
Yes, .NET supports COM (though it is IIRC considered legacy in .NET world), but
.NET is not the next generation of COM or another name for COM.
–
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
Hi Maxim,
I don’t blame you for being confused. MS has come up with so many names for their technologies that no one really knows what .NET and COM are anymore. .NET is more than just the CLR and managed code, because it is also a well organized toolset, built around the component based concepts of… COM.
Take the ‘.NET Passport’ for instance – it has nothing to do with the CLR or managed code, and this goes back to my point: MS is good at confusing people with inconsistent marketing.
xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
a growing number of home consumers with 64-bit Vista (as shows our
customer base)
Could you perhaps list some good reasons why I should upgrade my laptop
Vista32 installation to 64.bit? I’m looking for a justification to
change, but so far haven’t found one. 
My choice was simple. 4GB of RAM makes a nice environment for running VMs with different development environments, tools of dubious value, and virtual ‘test’ machines without clogging up the ‘get work done’ business environment on the laptop. Owning 4GB of RAM but only seeing 3GB is a bummer. Oh, and having it run a bit faster doesn’t bother me one bit.
However, make sure that the system and all of the junk (both hardware and software) on the platform will actually work on x64. There were days when I thought I might have been an uncompensated member of the QA team for a couple of IHV components. Thankfully for my system (Thinkpad X61) Intel finally shipped a GMA driver that didn’t restart constantly and for the most part (that is to say, I have learned to live with it) the Power Management ‘features’.
-dave
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Hagen Patzke
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 6:47 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Vista 64-bit Device Driver
xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
a growing number of home consumers with 64-bit Vista (as shows our
customer base)
Could you perhaps list some good reasons why I should upgrade my laptop
Vista32 installation to 64.bit? I’m looking for a justification to
change, but so far haven’t found one.
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
64bit is the only way to get the desktop version of the OS to use the 4gb of
ram that is now cheap and trivial to install on a new system. Consequently
lots of new home systems are running 64bit vista. In particular this is the
way the gamer community is going. Your laptop might have the same issue if
it has 4gb on it - the crippled 32bit OS only uses 3gb,
On Feb 4, 2008 6:46 AM, Hagen Patzke wrote:
> xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
> > a growing number of home consumers with 64-bit Vista (as shows our
> > customer base)
>
> Could you perhaps list some good reasons why I should upgrade my laptop
> Vista32 installation to 64.bit? I’m looking for a justification to
> change, but so far haven’t found one.
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
–
Mark Roddy
Hagen Patzke wrote:
Could you perhaps list some good reasons why I should upgrade my
laptop Vista32 installation to 64.bit? I’m looking for a
justification to change, but so far haven’t found one.
…and got two answers:
Mark Roddy wrote:
64bit is the only way to get the desktop version of the OS to use the
4gb of ram that is now cheap and trivial to install on a new system.
So this is not applicable for me yet, but will certainly be a factor
for the next system/upgrade. (My new laptop “only” has 2GB of RAM,
and my old PC runs with only 512MB. On XP/Linux/Zeta/MenuetOS.)
David R. Cattley wrote:
However, make sure that the system and all of the junk (both hardware
and software) on the platform will actually work on x64. There
were days when I thought I might have been an uncompensated member of
the QA team for a couple of IHV components.
As always for a new system/architecture (like when Linux was new). For
me this sounds like it is better to wait as long as possible for the x64
version to collect more support, drivers, service packs, knowledge base
articles, etc.
Thanks very much to you both!
-H
> I don’t blame you for being confused. MS has come up with so many names for
their technologies that no one really knows what .NET and COM are anymore.
Maybe there are better descriptions and understanding of terms, but for me .NET
is CLR/managed code usually with C# development language (though VB is also
supported), while COM is the infrastructure to make cross-process and
cross-machine OO calls (OO RPC is the adequate description, more so - DCOM’s
network protocol is called ORPC officially).
.NET is more than just the CLR and managed code, because it is also a well
organized toolset, built around the component based concepts of… COM.
IIRC .NET only uses COM for .NET/unmanaged calls. For .NET/.NET calls, native
.NET Remoting (which is not COM) is used even across machines.
–
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
Hi Hagen,
Could you perhaps list some good reasons why I should upgrade my laptop
Vista32 installation to 64.bit? I’m looking for a justification to change, but
so far haven’t found one.
From what I’ve heard, people aren’t ‘upgrading’ from 32-bit Vista to 64-bit Vista. They’re buying new AMD64 computers and opting on the 64-bit OS, because the option is there. Home consumers don’t really know about the scalability of a 64-bit machine, or the fact that they can’t run 32-bit drivers. They see that 64 is greater than 32, and ‘ego boost’ is probably the driving force when it comes to a home consumer buying a computer with 64-bit OS right now.
I have a random sample of home consumers living in my house - my oldest son
built a gaming system and deliberately went for a 64bit system, fully
understanding the driver issue and researching exactly what would work. As I
said, the reason was to get full use of the 4Gb on the system. The gaming
community, as usual, is the bleeding edge of the home market, they do their
research, they share information, and they are going to 64bit systems.
On Feb 4, 2008 11:59 AM, wrote:
> Hi Hagen,
>
> > Could you perhaps list some good reasons why I should upgrade my laptop
> > Vista32 installation to 64.bit? I’m looking for a justification to
> change, but
> > so far haven’t found one.
>
> From what I’ve heard, people aren’t ‘upgrading’ from 32-bit Vista to
> 64-bit Vista. They’re buying new AMD64 computers and opting on the 64-bit
> OS, because the option is there. Home consumers don’t really know about the
> scalability of a 64-bit machine, or the fact that they can’t run 32-bit
> drivers. They see that 64 is greater than 32, and ‘ego boost’ is probably
> the driving force when it comes to a home consumer buying a computer with
> 64-bit OS right now.
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
–
Mark Roddy
xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Saravanan, Tim,
I actually thought this was the case for Vista as a whole, but when I saw the unsigned driver run on Vista 32, I just thought Vista 64 would be equally forgiving. Oh well. Any specific reason why it’s not?
Because they can, I suppose. Vista 32 has the burden of 15 years of
backwards compatibility. You can still load many NT 3.1 drivers in
Vista 32, and they will work. They can’t afford to throw that away.
Vista 64 is a clean slate, so they can make new rules.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
Hi Mark,
Too bad more home consumers are not like your son. We have a suprising number of users who have not done their homework, and were sadly mislead by sales people.
It will be great when more games are compiled beyond the 32-bit barrier. Technically, a 32-bit OS will already provide 4GB of virtual memory to each process (in reality 2GB, and 3GB possible with compiler option)
Everyone will have to upgrade to 64-bit Windows eventually, because Microsoft will require a minimum of 8TB to run the next version of their OS.
Hi Tim,
Because they can, I suppose. Vista 32 has the burden of 15
years of backwards compatibility. You can still load many
NT 3.1 drivers in Vista 32, and they will work. They can’t
afford to throw that away. Vista 64 is a clean slate,
so they can make new rules.
Windows is amazing in that regard, but my question is why they chose 64-bit Vista to “start fresh” and not 32-bit Vista. Hagen’s (b) was an interesting point, but it no longer applies to home consumers.
So I’ll go with “because they can”
xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
I don’t blame you for being confused.
Maxim is not confused. You have been bamboozled by the Microsoft
marketing machine.
MS has come up with so many names for their technologies that no one really knows what .NET and COM are anymore.
Perhaps you do not, but I certainly do, and I’m pretty sure Maxim does
as well.
.NET is more than just the CLR and managed code, because it is also a well organized toolset, built around the component based concepts of… COM.
The product called “Visual Studio .NET” can certainly be used to build
unmanaged products. I do not call those “.NET applications”, and few
people outside of Redmond would. A .NET application is one that uses
the CLR. COM is an unmanaged technology, and using it from .NET
requires adapters and marshalling. A .NET class can expose itself as a
COM object, but again only through adapters and marshalling to the
unmanaged world.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
Hi Tim,
It’s not worth discussing the ambiguity of MS marketing techniques, especially with .NET. It was all done deliberately to promote the technology. Even .NET 3.0 had no improvements to the CLR or managed code capabilities, but it was enough for MS to increment the major version number.
xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
Too bad more home consumers are not like your son. We have a suprising number of users who have not done their homework, and were sadly mislead by sales people.
Logan, who are you? I’ve never seen your name on this list before, but
now there are a dozen messages in the last two days. The use of a
gmail.com address means we have no context for you.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
It’s not worth discussing the ambiguity of MS marketing techniques, especially with .NET. It was all done deliberately to promote the technology. Even .NET 3.0 had no improvements to the CLR or managed code capabilities, but it was enough for MS to increment the major version number.
Am I mistaken in thinking that it was the .NET 3.0 CLR that included the
Windows Presentation Foundation? In my opinion, that’s one of the most
exciting things to come out of Microsoft in a very long time. I only
wish I could afford the time to play with it.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>(in reality 2GB, and 3GB possible with compiler option)
With OS boot option.
–
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
Hi Tim,
I don’t like drawing a lot of attention, actually, and it’s funny to see this thread grow from of no where. I appreciate the ‘driver’ insight.
I did consulting for a company which involved developing the device driver in question. The company has come back to me to have their 64-bit Vista problem remedied. I met some folks from OSR, a couple of years ago, while working at MS. This brought me here today, and it’s been fun and fruitful ever since.
Hi Tim,
WPF, WCF, and WF merely extend the ‘.NET Framework’ without changing the CLR. (e.g. .NET 3.0 actually uses the 2.0 CLR) Emphasizing that MS perceives .NET as more than just the CLR and managed code, and calling the simple ‘framework change’ .NET 3.0. But c’mon, that’s ‘user mode’ stuff.
On Feb 4, 2008 7:47 PM, wrote:
> It will be great when more games are compiled beyond the 32-bit barrier.
> Technically, a 32-bit OS will already provide 4GB of virtual memory to each
> process (in reality 2GB, and 3GB possible with compiler option)
You are telling half the story here.
By default, a process’ memory space (given 32 bit Windows) is divided
in two. 2GB for the process, 2GB for the kernel. You can tweak this by
using various boot.ini settings (/3GB the most convenient option, but
/USERVA is another alternative IIRC), but… You then run into all
sorts of amusing problems. As I understand, the memory space occupied
by graphics cards will also eat into the kernel memory space? So,
given a powerful gamer’s rig, you cannot really grant processes too
much user space.
Enter 64-bit Windows. All 32-bit processes compiled with the
large-memory-aware flag are granted the full 4GB memory space. A
handful of new games greatly benefit from this. They gain stability
from the increase in memory space available to them. (yes, this
indicates poor QA, but what can a poor gamer do, except to game in a
64-bit OS?)
Granted, some Vista features made this a lot worse, but those issues
has since been addressed in a hotfix.
(http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3060&p=1)
–
Rune