softice nms + DDK Suite

NTDEV
1

Hello their,
i have sent this question before so i apologize in advance.

Don’t ask why i need softice and nms for debugging the driver. This has
to do with the team i cooperate.

The old DDK produces images that include debugging information. So
extracting the info and translate it
in an nms was quite trivial.

The new DDK suite produces images that do not include any debugging
information. The images just point at
the pdb file where the debugging information is included. Therefore
debug and release versions have almost the same size.

My question is this.

How can i produce a nms file from images build with DDK suite.
Is it possible?

My softice version is 4.05.

Thank you.

2

Unless your target OS is win9x or NT4, consider upgrade to the latest
version of SoftICE and tools.

The NuMega support forum is here:
http://frontline.compuware.com/user/profile/Forum_Agree.asp

Regards,
–PA

“Nikolas Stylianides” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Hello their,
> i have sent this question before so i apologize in advance.
>
> Don’t ask why i need softice and nms for debugging the driver. This has to do with the team i cooperate.
>
> The old DDK produces images that include debugging information. So extracting the info and translate it
> in an nms was quite trivial.
>
> The new DDK suite produces images that do not include any debugging information. The images just point at
> the pdb file where the debugging information is included. Therefore debug and release versions have almost the same size.
>
> My question is this.
>
> How can i produce a nms file from images build with DDK suite.
> Is it possible?
>
> My softice version is 4.05.
>
> Thank you.
>

3

NSTYL:

There are a couple of ways. The first (GUI) is to load and translate
the sys/pdb to an nms using Symbol Loader. Start it, open the sys using
the file menu, and select translate. The second (CL), is to process the
sys/pdb using NMSYM. Assuming you are in the directory in which both
the sys and pdb lie, and that NMSYM is in your path:

NMSYM /TRANSLATE /OUTPUT:

Try NMSYM /? for options.

Hope this helps,

MM

>>> xxxxx@4plus.com 2006-04-01 06:02 >>>
Hello their,
i have sent this question before so i apologize in advance.

Don’t ask why i need softice and nms for debugging the driver. This has

to do with the team i cooperate.

The old DDK produces images that include debugging information. So
extracting the info and translate it
in an nms was quite trivial.

The new DDK suite produces images that do not include any debugging
information. The images just point at
the pdb file where the debugging information is included. Therefore
debug and release versions have almost the same size.

My question is this.

How can i produce a nms file from images build with DDK suite.
Is it possible?

My softice version is 4.05.

Thank you.

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

4

Martin O’Brien wrote:

NSTYL:

There are a couple of ways. The first (GUI) is to load and translate
the sys/pdb to an nms using Symbol Loader. Start it, open the sys using
the file menu, and select translate. The second (CL), is to process the
sys/pdb using NMSYM. Assuming you are in the directory in which both
the sys and pdb lie, and that NMSYM is in your path:

NMSYM /TRANSLATE /OUTPUT:
>
> Try NMSYM /? for options.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> MM
>
>
>
>>>> xxxxx@4plus.com 2006-04-01 06:02 >>>
>>>>
> Hello their,
> i have sent this question before so i apologize in advance.
>
> Don’t ask why i need softice and nms for debugging the driver. This has
>
> to do with the team i cooperate.
>
> The old DDK produces images that include debugging information. So
> extracting the info and translate it
> in an nms was quite trivial.
>
> The new DDK suite produces images that do not include any debugging
> information. The images just point at
> the pdb file where the debugging information is included. Therefore
> debug and release versions have almost the same size.
>
> My question is this.
>
> How can i produce a nms file from images build with DDK suite.
> Is it possible?
>
> My softice version is 4.05.
>
> Thank you.
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>
>
The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The nmsym
reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
Did you try this and worked?

5

Email or phone Compuware. The number is available on their site and in your
documentation. They provide tech support. With what they charge they must
if they want to keep selling DriverStudio and SoftIce Suite.

“Nikolas Stylianides” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Martin O’Brien wrote:
>> NSTYL:
>>
>> There are a couple of ways. The first (GUI) is to load and translate
>> the sys/pdb to an nms using Symbol Loader. Start it, open the sys using
>> the file menu, and select translate. The second (CL), is to process the
>> sys/pdb using NMSYM. Assuming you are in the directory in which both
>> the sys and pdb lie, and that NMSYM is in your path:
>>
>> NMSYM /TRANSLATE /OUTPUT:
>>
>> Try NMSYM /? for options.
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>>
>> MM
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> xxxxx@4plus.com 2006-04-01 06:02 >>>
>>>>>
>> Hello their,
>> i have sent this question before so i apologize in advance.
>>
>> Don’t ask why i need softice and nms for debugging the driver. This has
>>
>> to do with the team i cooperate.
>>
>> The old DDK produces images that include debugging information. So
>> extracting the info and translate it
>> in an nms was quite trivial.
>>
>> The new DDK suite produces images that do not include any debugging
>> information. The images just point at
>> the pdb file where the debugging information is included. Therefore debug
>> and release versions have almost the same size.
>>
>> My question is this.
>>
>> How can i produce a nms file from images build with DDK suite.
>> Is it possible?
>>
>> My softice version is 4.05.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> —
>> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
>> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>>
>> —
>> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>>
>> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
>> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>>
>>
>>
> The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The nmsym
> reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
> Did you try this and worked?
>
>
>
>
>

6

How did you generate your symbols? There are a couple of symbol generation
options in the compiler that you can set with C_FLAGS in your SOURCES
file. Are you using the setting BLESSED by SoftIce?

Gary G. Little

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@4plus.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 1:16 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite

Martin O’Brien wrote:

NSTYL:

There are a couple of ways. The first (GUI) is to load and translate
the sys/pdb to an nms using Symbol Loader. Start it, open the sys using
the file menu, and select translate. The second (CL), is to process the
sys/pdb using NMSYM. Assuming you are in the directory in which both
the sys and pdb lie, and that NMSYM is in your path:

NMSYM /TRANSLATE /OUTPUT:
>
> Try NMSYM /? for options.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> MM
>
>
>
>>>> xxxxx@4plus.com 2006-04-01 06:02 >>>
>>>>
> Hello their,
> i have sent this question before so i apologize in advance.
>
> Don’t ask why i need softice and nms for debugging the driver. This has
>
> to do with the team i cooperate.
>
> The old DDK produces images that include debugging information. So
> extracting the info and translate it
> in an nms was quite trivial.
>
> The new DDK suite produces images that do not include any debugging
> information. The images just point at
> the pdb file where the debugging information is included. Therefore
> debug and release versions have almost the same size.
>
> My question is this.
>
> How can i produce a nms file from images build with DDK suite.
> Is it possible?
>
> My softice version is 4.05.
>
> Thank you.
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>
>
The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The nmsym
reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
Did you try this and worked?

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

7

> ----------

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on behalf of Nikolas Stylianides[SMTP:xxxxx@4plus.com]
Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:16 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite

> My softice version is 4.05.
>
The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The nmsym
reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
Did you try this and worked?

Your SI/DS version is very old and obsolete. Support for handling VC7 symbols which DDK compiler uses was added later. You have two options: update SI or force DDK compiler to generate VC6 symbols. It is undocumented but I wrote here several times how to do it. Search archives. However, even if you persuade compiler to generate symbols your old SI can handle, I seriously doubt such an old version will work with current OSes. Maybe if you’re using w2k SP0 or XP SP0.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

8

Looks like DriverStudio (i think including SoftIce) is no more. From:
http://www.compuware.com/products/devpartner/
DriverStudio
As of April 3rd, 2006 the DriverStudio product family has retired. For
customer support information please contact our FrontLine website.

Why don’t companies make their products open source before they abandoned
them.

–
Pankaj Garg
This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties and confers no rights.

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> ----------
> From:
xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on
behalf of Nikolas Stylianides[SMTP:xxxxx@4plus.com]
> Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:16 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
>
> > My softice version is 4.05.
> >
> The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The nmsym
> reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
> Did you try this and worked?
>
Your SI/DS version is very old and obsolete. Support for handling VC7
symbols which DDK compiler uses was added later. You have two options:
update SI or force DDK compiler to generate VC6 symbols. It is undocumented
but I wrote here several times how to do it. Search archives. However, even
if you persuade compiler to generate symbols your old SI can handle, I
seriously doubt such an old version will work with current OSes. Maybe if
you’re using w2k SP0 or XP SP0.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

9

Ugh. Bad news. I can live without debugger as traces are superior for debugging but SI was really useful for quick examination of something running in system.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on behalf of Pankaj Garg[SMTP:xxxxx@hotmail.com]
Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 2:48 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite

Looks like DriverStudio (i think including SoftIce) is no more. From:
http://www.compuware.com/products/devpartner/
DriverStudio
As of April 3rd, 2006 the DriverStudio product family has retired. For
customer support information please contact our FrontLine website.

Why don’t companies make their products open source before they abandoned
them.

–
Pankaj Garg
This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties and confers no rights.

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > ----------
> > From:
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on
> behalf of Nikolas Stylianides[SMTP:xxxxx@4plus.com]
> > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:16 AM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> >
> > > My softice version is 4.05.
> > >
> > The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The nmsym
> > reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
> > Did you try this and worked?
> >
> Your SI/DS version is very old and obsolete. Support for handling VC7
> symbols which DDK compiler uses was added later. You have two options:
> update SI or force DDK compiler to generate VC6 symbols. It is undocumented
> but I wrote here several times how to do it. Search archives. However, even
> if you persuade compiler to generate symbols your old SI can handle, I
> seriously doubt such an old version will work with current OSes. Maybe if
> you’re using w2k SP0 or XP SP0.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

10

It produced more instability than usefulness. I had tried to use
BoundsChecker last year and it couldn’t find the IRQL correctly. I got the
update and it still had problems running on an old video card. The serial
connection wouldn’t work either. I gave up.

When I had to do 9x and NT/2000 it was nice to have one debugger to work on
both and windbg was really unstable. Now windbg is much better, but with
the demise of SoftIce I hope they don’t let it drop in importance. We can
hope, but I am not optimistic.

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
Ugh. Bad news. I can live without debugger as traces are superior for
debugging but SI was really useful for quick examination of something
running in system.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

> ----------
> From:
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> on behalf of Pankaj Garg[SMTP:xxxxx@hotmail.com]
> Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 2:48 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
>
> Looks like DriverStudio (i think including SoftIce) is no more. From:
> http://www.compuware.com/products/devpartner/
> DriverStudio
> As of April 3rd, 2006 the DriverStudio product family has retired. For
> customer support information please contact our FrontLine website.
>
> Why don’t companies make their products open source before they abandoned
> them.
>
> –
> Pankaj Garg
> This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties and confers no rights.
>
>
> “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > ----------
> > From:
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> on
> behalf of Nikolas Stylianides[SMTP:xxxxx@4plus.com]
> > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:16 AM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> >
> > > My softice version is 4.05.
> > >
> > The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The nmsym
> > reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
> > Did you try this and worked?
> >
> Your SI/DS version is very old and obsolete. Support for handling VC7
> symbols which DDK compiler uses was added later. You have two options:
> update SI or force DDK compiler to generate VC6 symbols. It is
> undocumented
> but I wrote here several times how to do it. Search archives. However,
> even
> if you persuade compiler to generate symbols your old SI can handle, I
> seriously doubt such an old version will work with current OSes. Maybe if
> you’re using w2k SP0 or XP SP0.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

11

Well, I use it for 10 years for all w9x and NT versions. There were problems and some betas were unstable but for me it definitely produced more usefulness than problems. I still have SI installed and start it when need it for something. It isn’t loaded always just because I usually don’t need a debugger; DbgView is quite sufficient for debugging any reasonably written code :slight_smile:

As for WinDbg, I don’t think its importance ever depended on SoftICE or DS. Yes, it was improved and it is great tool for crash dump analysis. Much better than DS ever was (the GUI part was almost unusable, at least for me). But for debugging you have to connect two computers using a cable which is a PITA and slow. Can it be already connected by USB or Ethernet? I guess I’ll have to subscribe WinDbg list.

BTW, I tried to send an e-mail to former SI lead developer and it was undeliverable…

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on behalf of David J. Craig[SMTP:xxxxx@yoshimuni.com]
Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:05 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite

It produced more instability than usefulness. I had tried to use
BoundsChecker last year and it couldn’t find the IRQL correctly. I got the
update and it still had problems running on an old video card. The serial
connection wouldn’t work either. I gave up.

When I had to do 9x and NT/2000 it was nice to have one debugger to work on
both and windbg was really unstable. Now windbg is much better, but with
the demise of SoftIce I hope they don’t let it drop in importance. We can
hope, but I am not optimistic.

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Ugh. Bad news. I can live without debugger as traces are superior for
> debugging but SI was really useful for quick examination of something
> running in system.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
> > ----------
> > From:
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > on behalf of Pankaj Garg[SMTP:xxxxx@hotmail.com]
> > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 2:48 AM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> >
> > Looks like DriverStudio (i think including SoftIce) is no more. From:
> > http://www.compuware.com/products/devpartner/
> > DriverStudio
> > As of April 3rd, 2006 the DriverStudio product family has retired. For
> > customer support information please contact our FrontLine website.
> >
> > Why don’t companies make their products open source before they abandoned
> > them.
> >
> > –
> > Pankaj Garg
> > This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties and confers no rights.
> >
> >
> > “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > ----------
> > > From:
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > on
> > behalf of Nikolas Stylianides[SMTP:xxxxx@4plus.com]
> > > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:16 AM
> > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> > >
> > > > My softice version is 4.05.
> > > >
> > > The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The nmsym
> > > reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
> > > Did you try this and worked?
> > >
> > Your SI/DS version is very old and obsolete. Support for handling VC7
> > symbols which DDK compiler uses was added later. You have two options:>
> > update SI or force DDK compiler to generate VC6 symbols. It is
> > undocumented
> > but I wrote here several times how to do it. Search archives. However,
> > even
> > if you persuade compiler to generate symbols your old SI can handle, I
> > seriously doubt such an old version will work with current OSes. Maybe if
> > you’re using w2k SP0 or XP SP0.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Michal Vodicka
> > UPEK, Inc.
> > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

12

Windbg works well with 1394a if you use cards with the TI chipset, which OSR
sells. It also works well with serial. I use serial on the target
computers to a serial to USB adapter on my notebook. I use a RJ-45 network
cable to connect the two since those cables are much better serial cables
than serial cables. The adapter blocks are cute and you wire them yourself
using the docs from windbg. You can wire them as full null modem serial
cables even though windbg won’t use the handshaking pins. I heard a rumor
that windbg will work on USB in the future, but I would rather have 1394a or
even 1394b. Just don’t try to debug something on 1394 if you use it for
debugging. Use serial then and do the opposite if you need the serial port
for another use.

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
Well, I use it for 10 years for all w9x and NT versions. There were problems
and some betas were unstable but for me it definitely produced more
usefulness than problems. I still have SI installed and start it when need
it for something. It isn’t loaded always just because I usually don’t need a
debugger; DbgView is quite sufficient for debugging any reasonably written
code :slight_smile:

As for WinDbg, I don’t think its importance ever depended on SoftICE or DS.
Yes, it was improved and it is great tool for crash dump analysis. Much
better than DS ever was (the GUI part was almost unusable, at least for me).
But for debugging you have to connect two computers using a cable which is a
PITA and slow. Can it be already connected by USB or Ethernet? I guess I’ll
have to subscribe WinDbg list.

BTW, I tried to send an e-mail to former SI lead developer and it was
undeliverable…

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

> ----------
> From:
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> on behalf of David J. Craig[SMTP:xxxxx@yoshimuni.com]
> Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:05 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
>
> It produced more instability than usefulness. I had tried to use
> BoundsChecker last year and it couldn’t find the IRQL correctly. I got
> the
> update and it still had problems running on an old video card. The serial
> connection wouldn’t work either. I gave up.
>
> When I had to do 9x and NT/2000 it was nice to have one debugger to work
> on
> both and windbg was really unstable. Now windbg is much better, but with
> the demise of SoftIce I hope they don’t let it drop in importance. We can
> hope, but I am not optimistic.
>
>
> “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Ugh. Bad news. I can live without debugger as traces are superior for
> debugging but SI was really useful for quick examination of something
> running in system.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
> > ----------
> > From:
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > on behalf of Pankaj Garg[SMTP:xxxxx@hotmail.com]
> > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 2:48 AM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> >
> > Looks like DriverStudio (i think including SoftIce) is no more. From:
> > http://www.compuware.com/products/devpartner/
> > DriverStudio
> > As of April 3rd, 2006 the DriverStudio product family has retired. For
> > customer support information please contact our FrontLine website.
> >
> > Why don’t companies make their products open source before they
> > abandoned
> > them.
> >
> > –
> > Pankaj Garg
> > This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties and confers no
> > rights.
> >
> >
> > “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > ----------
> > > From:
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > on
> > behalf of Nikolas Stylianides[SMTP:xxxxx@4plus.com]
> > > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:16 AM
> > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> > >
> > > > My softice version is 4.05.
> > > >
> > > The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The
> > > nmsym
> > > reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
> > > Did you try this and worked?
> > >
> > Your SI/DS version is very old and obsolete. Support for handling VC7
> > symbols which DDK compiler uses was added later. You have two options:>
> > update SI or force DDK compiler to generate VC6 symbols. It is
> > undocumented
> > but I wrote here several times how to do it. Search archives. However,
> > even
> > if you persuade compiler to generate symbols your old SI can handle, I
> > seriously doubt such an old version will work with current OSes. Maybe
> > if
> > you’re using w2k SP0 or XP SP0.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Michal Vodicka
> > UPEK, Inc.
> > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

13

My last experience with the WinDbg connected via serial cable was sad. The notebook I connected (115200) wasn’t able to finish logon because some piece of software decided to print a nonsense to debug output. Thousands messages in short time and serial line was simply too slow to handle it. OS was completely blocked and unusable and WinDbg, too. It’d be no problem with local debugger. The nonsense was on system preinstalled by hw manufacturer which I couldn’t change. Maybe it’d work at 1394a but not all notebooks have it available. Some even don’t have serial port, only USB and Ethernet. When I need to debug something, it is usually on a notebook prototype sent by some hw manufacturer. I can’t add card or change configuration (well, too much). Fortunately, traces and crashdump analysis are usually sufficient.

I just want to point out WinDbg is too limited in some cases and it’s a real pity an alternate debugger retired.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on behalf of David J. Craig[SMTP:xxxxx@yoshimuni.com]
Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:32 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite

Windbg works well with 1394a if you use cards with the TI chipset, which OSR
sells. It also works well with serial. I use serial on the target
computers to a serial to USB adapter on my notebook. I use a RJ-45 network
cable to connect the two since those cables are much better serial cables
than serial cables. The adapter blocks are cute and you wire them yourself
using the docs from windbg. You can wire them as full null modem serial
cables even though windbg won’t use the handshaking pins. I heard a rumor
that windbg will work on USB in the future, but I would rather have 1394a or
even 1394b. Just don’t try to debug something on 1394 if you use it for
debugging. Use serial then and do the opposite if you need the serial port
for another use.

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Well, I use it for 10 years for all w9x and NT versions. There were problems
> and some betas were unstable but for me it definitely produced more
> usefulness than problems. I still have SI installed and start it when need
> it for something. It isn’t loaded always just because I usually don’t need a
> debugger; DbgView is quite sufficient for debugging any reasonably written
> code :slight_smile:
>
> As for WinDbg, I don’t think its importance ever depended on SoftICE or DS.
> Yes, it was improved and it is great tool for crash dump analysis. Much
> better than DS ever was (the GUI part was almost unusable, at least for me).
> But for debugging you have to connect two computers using a cable which is a
> PITA and slow. Can it be already connected by USB or Ethernet? I guess I’ll
> have to subscribe WinDbg list.
>
> BTW, I tried to send an e-mail to former SI lead developer and it was
> undeliverable…
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
>
> > ----------
> > From:
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > on behalf of David J. Craig[SMTP:xxxxx@yoshimuni.com]
> > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:05 AM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> >
> > It produced more instability than usefulness. I had tried to use
> > BoundsChecker last year and it couldn’t find the IRQL correctly. I got
> > the
> > update and it still had problems running on an old video card. The serial>
> > connection wouldn’t work either. I gave up.
> >
> > When I had to do 9x and NT/2000 it was nice to have one debugger to work
> > on
> > both and windbg was really unstable. Now windbg is much better, but with
> > the demise of SoftIce I hope they don’t let it drop in importance. We can
> > hope, but I am not optimistic.
> >
> >
> > “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > Ugh. Bad news. I can live without debugger as traces are superior for
> > debugging but SI was really useful for quick examination of something
> > running in system.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Michal Vodicka
> > UPEK, Inc.
> > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From:
> > > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > > on behalf of Pankaj Garg[SMTP:xxxxx@hotmail.com]
> > > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 2:48 AM
> > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> > >
> > > Looks like DriverStudio (i think including SoftIce) is no more. From:
> > > http://www.compuware.com/products/devpartner/
> > > DriverStudio
> > > As of April 3rd, 2006 the DriverStudio product family has retired. For
> > > customer support information please contact our FrontLine website.
> > >
> > > Why don’t companies make their products open source before they
> > > abandoned
> > > them.
> > >
> > > –
> > > Pankaj Garg
> > > This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties and confers no
> > > rights.
> > >
> > >
> > > “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> > > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > ----------
> > > > From:
> > > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > > on
> > > behalf of Nikolas Stylianides[SMTP:xxxxx@4plus.com]
> > > > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:16 AM
> > > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > > Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> > > >
> > > > > My softice version is 4.05.
> > > > >
> > > > The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The
> > > > nmsym
> > > > reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
> > > > Did you try this and worked?
> > > >
> > > Your SI/DS version is very old and obsolete. Support for handling VC7
> > > symbols which DDK compiler uses was added later. You have two options:>
> > > update SI or force DDK compiler to generate VC6 symbols. It is
> > > undocumented
> > > but I wrote here several times how to do it. Search archives. However,
> > > even
> > > if you persuade compiler to generate symbols your old SI can handle, I
> > > seriously doubt such an old version will work with current OSes. Maybe
> > > if
> > > you’re using w2k SP0 or XP SP0.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Michal Vodicka
> > > UPEK, Inc.
> > > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > —
> > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

14

USB2 support is in and in the latest debugger package. IIRC you need
the OEM to supply a header and you need a “fat” usb cable that acts as a
device between the 2 connectors.

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of David J. Craig
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:33 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite

Windbg works well with 1394a if you use cards with the TI chipset, which
OSR
sells. It also works well with serial. I use serial on the target
computers to a serial to USB adapter on my notebook. I use a RJ-45
network
cable to connect the two since those cables are much better serial
cables
than serial cables. The adapter blocks are cute and you wire them
yourself
using the docs from windbg. You can wire them as full null modem serial

cables even though windbg won’t use the handshaking pins. I heard a
rumor
that windbg will work on USB in the future, but I would rather have
1394a or
even 1394b. Just don’t try to debug something on 1394 if you use it for

debugging. Use serial then and do the opposite if you need the serial
port
for another use.

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
Well, I use it for 10 years for all w9x and NT versions. There were
problems
and some betas were unstable but for me it definitely produced more
usefulness than problems. I still have SI installed and start it when
need
it for something. It isn’t loaded always just because I usually don’t
need a
debugger; DbgView is quite sufficient for debugging any reasonably
written
code :slight_smile:

As for WinDbg, I don’t think its importance ever depended on SoftICE or
DS.
Yes, it was improved and it is great tool for crash dump analysis. Much
better than DS ever was (the GUI part was almost unusable, at least for
me).
But for debugging you have to connect two computers using a cable which
is a
PITA and slow. Can it be already connected by USB or Ethernet? I guess
I’ll
have to subscribe WinDbg list.

BTW, I tried to send an e-mail to former SI lead developer and it was
undeliverable…

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

> ----------
> From:
>
xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
]
> on behalf of David J. Craig[SMTP:xxxxx@yoshimuni.com]
> Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:05 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
>
> It produced more instability than usefulness. I had tried to use
> BoundsChecker last year and it couldn’t find the IRQL correctly. I
got
> the
> update and it still had problems running on an old video card. The
serial
> connection wouldn’t work either. I gave up.
>
> When I had to do 9x and NT/2000 it was nice to have one debugger to
work
> on
> both and windbg was really unstable. Now windbg is much better, but
with
> the demise of SoftIce I hope they don’t let it drop in importance. We
can
> hope, but I am not optimistic.
>
>
> “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Ugh. Bad news. I can live without debugger as traces are superior for
> debugging but SI was really useful for quick examination of something
> running in system.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
> > ----------
> > From:
> >
xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
]
> > on behalf of Pankaj Garg[SMTP:xxxxx@hotmail.com]
> > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 2:48 AM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> >
> > Looks like DriverStudio (i think including SoftIce) is no more.
From:
> > http://www.compuware.com/products/devpartner/
> > DriverStudio
> > As of April 3rd, 2006 the DriverStudio product family has retired.
For
> > customer support information please contact our FrontLine website.
> >
> > Why don’t companies make their products open source before they
> > abandoned
> > them.
> >
> > –
> > Pankaj Garg
> > This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties and confers no
> > rights.
> >
> >
> > “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > ----------
> > > From:
> >
xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
]
> > on
> > behalf of Nikolas Stylianides[SMTP:xxxxx@4plus.com]
> > > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:16 AM
> > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> > >
> > > > My softice version is 4.05.
> > > >
> > > The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The

> > > nmsym
> > > reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
> > > Did you try this and worked?
> > >
> > Your SI/DS version is very old and obsolete. Support for handling
VC7
> > symbols which DDK compiler uses was added later. You have two
options:>
> > update SI or force DDK compiler to generate VC6 symbols. It is
> > undocumented
> > but I wrote here several times how to do it. Search archives.
However,
> > even
> > if you persuade compiler to generate symbols your old SI can handle,
I
> > seriously doubt such an old version will work with current OSes.
Maybe
> > if
> > you’re using w2k SP0 or XP SP0.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Michal Vodicka
> > UPEK, Inc.
> > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

15

OSR offers both PCI and PC Card/CardBus versions of the TI chipset 1394a
debugger. I would not use a notebook as a target unless I had no choice. I
use the serial all the time, but I won’t use a machine that has a driver
that is spewing. Companies that ship that junk should go broke. That is
why Microsoft invented WPP though it is a real pain to implement the first
time or so.

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
My last experience with the WinDbg connected via serial cable was sad. The
notebook I connected (115200) wasn’t able to finish logon because some piece
of software decided to print a nonsense to debug output. Thousands messages
in short time and serial line was simply too slow to handle it. OS was
completely blocked and unusable and WinDbg, too. It’d be no problem with
local debugger. The nonsense was on system preinstalled by hw manufacturer
which I couldn’t change. Maybe it’d work at 1394a but not all notebooks have
it available. Some even don’t have serial port, only USB and Ethernet. When
I need to debug something, it is usually on a notebook prototype sent by
some hw manufacturer. I can’t add card or change configuration (well, too
much). Fortunately, traces and crashdump analysis are usually sufficient.

I just want to point out WinDbg is too limited in some cases and it’s a real
pity an alternate debugger retired.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

> ----------
> From:
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> on behalf of David J. Craig[SMTP:xxxxx@yoshimuni.com]
> Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:32 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
>
> Windbg works well with 1394a if you use cards with the TI chipset, which
> OSR
> sells. It also works well with serial. I use serial on the target
> computers to a serial to USB adapter on my notebook. I use a RJ-45
> network
> cable to connect the two since those cables are much better serial cables
> than serial cables. The adapter blocks are cute and you wire them
> yourself
> using the docs from windbg. You can wire them as full null modem serial
> cables even though windbg won’t use the handshaking pins. I heard a rumor
> that windbg will work on USB in the future, but I would rather have 1394a
> or
> even 1394b. Just don’t try to debug something on 1394 if you use it for
> debugging. Use serial then and do the opposite if you need the serial
> port
> for another use.
>
> “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Well, I use it for 10 years for all w9x and NT versions. There were
> problems
> and some betas were unstable but for me it definitely produced more
> usefulness than problems. I still have SI installed and start it when need
> it for something. It isn’t loaded always just because I usually don’t need
> a
> debugger; DbgView is quite sufficient for debugging any reasonably written
> code :slight_smile:
>
> As for WinDbg, I don’t think its importance ever depended on SoftICE or
> DS.
> Yes, it was improved and it is great tool for crash dump analysis. Much
> better than DS ever was (the GUI part was almost unusable, at least for
> me).
> But for debugging you have to connect two computers using a cable which is
> a
> PITA and slow. Can it be already connected by USB or Ethernet? I guess
> I’ll
> have to subscribe WinDbg list.
>
> BTW, I tried to send an e-mail to former SI lead developer and it was
> undeliverable…
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
>
> > ----------
> > From:
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > on behalf of David J. Craig[SMTP:xxxxx@yoshimuni.com]
> > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:05 AM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> >
> > It produced more instability than usefulness. I had tried to use
> > BoundsChecker last year and it couldn’t find the IRQL correctly. I got
> > the
> > update and it still had problems running on an old video card. The
> > serial>
> > connection wouldn’t work either. I gave up.
> >
> > When I had to do 9x and NT/2000 it was nice to have one debugger to work
> > on
> > both and windbg was really unstable. Now windbg is much better, but
> > with
> > the demise of SoftIce I hope they don’t let it drop in importance. We
> > can
> > hope, but I am not optimistic.
> >
> >
> > “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > Ugh. Bad news. I can live without debugger as traces are superior for
> > debugging but SI was really useful for quick examination of something
> > running in system.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Michal Vodicka
> > UPEK, Inc.
> > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From:
> > > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > > on behalf of Pankaj Garg[SMTP:xxxxx@hotmail.com]
> > > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 2:48 AM
> > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> > >
> > > Looks like DriverStudio (i think including SoftIce) is no more. From:
> > > http://www.compuware.com/products/devpartner/
> > > DriverStudio
> > > As of April 3rd, 2006 the DriverStudio product family has retired. For
> > > customer support information please contact our FrontLine website.
> > >
> > > Why don’t companies make their products open source before they
> > > abandoned
> > > them.
> > >
> > > –
> > > Pankaj Garg
> > > This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties and confers no
> > > rights.
> > >
> > >
> > > “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> > > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > ----------
> > > > From:
> > > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > > on
> > > behalf of Nikolas Stylianides[SMTP:xxxxx@4plus.com]
> > > > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:16 AM
> > > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > > Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> > > >
> > > > > My softice version is 4.05.
> > > > >
> > > > The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The
> > > > nmsym
> > > > reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
> > > > Did you try this and worked?
> > > >
> > > Your SI/DS version is very old and obsolete. Support for handling VC7
> > > symbols which DDK compiler uses was added later. You have two
> > > options:>
> > > update SI or force DDK compiler to generate VC6 symbols. It is
> > > undocumented
> > > but I wrote here several times how to do it. Search archives. However,
> > > even
> > > if you persuade compiler to generate symbols your old SI can handle, I
> > > seriously doubt such an old version will work with current OSes. Maybe
> > > if
> > > you’re using w2k SP0 or XP SP0.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Michal Vodicka
> > > UPEK, Inc.
> > > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > —
> > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

16

Sometimes there is no choice. And I’d prefer if our customers don’t break :slight_smile: Anyway, it was a prototype and spewing sw was probably some forgotten debug version of 3rd party user mode module.

The worse problem is printing traces influences timing. Some problems simply disappear on serial line when checked build OS drivers are used and traces enabled. I was much more successful to get correct traces with DbgView than with WinDbg over serial line.

WPP is a good idea and horrible complicated implementation. Surprisingly, USB checked drivers don’t use it (XP SP2 at least).

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] on behalf of David J. Craig[SMTP:xxxxx@yoshimuni.com]
Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 7:16 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite

OSR offers both PCI and PC Card/CardBus versions of the TI chipset 1394a
debugger. I would not use a notebook as a target unless I had no choice. I
use the serial all the time, but I won’t use a machine that has a driver
that is spewing. Companies that ship that junk should go broke. That is
why Microsoft invented WPP though it is a real pain to implement the first
time or so.

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> My last experience with the WinDbg connected via serial cable was sad. The
> notebook I connected (115200) wasn’t able to finish logon because some piece
> of software decided to print a nonsense to debug output. Thousands messages
> in short time and serial line was simply too slow to handle it. OS was
> completely blocked and unusable and WinDbg, too. It’d be no problem with
> local debugger. The nonsense was on system preinstalled by hw manufacturer
> which I couldn’t change. Maybe it’d work at 1394a but not all notebooks have
> it available. Some even don’t have serial port, only USB and Ethernet. When
> I need to debug something, it is usually on a notebook prototype sent by
> some hw manufacturer. I can’t add card or change configuration (well, too
> much). Fortunately, traces and crashdump analysis are usually sufficient.
>
> I just want to point out WinDbg is too limited in some cases and it’s a real
> pity an alternate debugger retired.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
>
> > ----------
> > From:
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > on behalf of David J. Craig[SMTP:xxxxx@yoshimuni.com]
> > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:32 AM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> >
> > Windbg works well with 1394a if you use cards with the TI chipset, which
> > OSR
> > sells. It also works well with serial. I use serial on the target
> > computers to a serial to USB adapter on my notebook. I use a RJ-45
> > network
> > cable to connect the two since those cables are much better serial cables
> > than serial cables. The adapter blocks are cute and you wire them
> > yourself
> > using the docs from windbg. You can wire them as full null modem serial
> > cables even though windbg won’t use the handshaking pins. I heard a rumor
> > that windbg will work on USB in the future, but I would rather have 1394a
> > or
> > even 1394b. Just don’t try to debug something on 1394 if you use it for
> > debugging. Use serial then and do the opposite if you need the serial
> > port
> > for another use.
> >
> > “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > Well, I use it for 10 years for all w9x and NT versions. There were >
> > problems
> > and some betas were unstable but for me it definitely produced more
> > usefulness than problems. I still have SI installed and start it when need
> > it for something. It isn’t loaded always just because I usually don’t need
> > a
> > debugger; DbgView is quite sufficient for debugging any reasonably written
> > code :slight_smile:
> >
> > As for WinDbg, I don’t think its importance ever depended on SoftICE or
> > DS.
> > Yes, it was improved and it is great tool for crash dump analysis. Much
> > better than DS ever was (the GUI part was almost unusable, at least for
> > me).
> > But for debugging you have to connect two computers using a cable which is
> > a
> > PITA and slow. Can it be already connected by USB or Ethernet? I guess
> > I’ll
> > have to subscribe WinDbg list.
> >
> > BTW, I tried to send an e-mail to former SI lead developer and it was
> > undeliverable…
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Michal Vodicka
> > UPEK, Inc.
> > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> >
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From:
> > > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > > on behalf of David J. Craig[SMTP:xxxxx@yoshimuni.com]
> > > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:05 AM
> > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> > >
> > > It produced more instability than usefulness. I had tried to use
> > > BoundsChecker last year and it couldn’t find the IRQL correctly. I got
> > > the
> > > update and it still had problems running on an old video card. The
> > > serial>
> > > connection wouldn’t work either. I gave up.
> > >
> > > When I had to do 9x and NT/2000 it was nice to have one debugger to work
> > > on
> > > both and windbg was really unstable. Now windbg is much better, but
> > > with
> > > the demise of SoftIce I hope they don’t let it drop in importance. We
> > > can
> > > hope, but I am not optimistic.
> > >
> > >
> > > “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> > > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > Ugh. Bad news. I can live without debugger as traces are superior for
> > > debugging but SI was really useful for quick examination of something
> > > running in system.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Michal Vodicka
> > > UPEK, Inc.
> > > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > From:
> > > > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > > > on behalf of Pankaj Garg[SMTP:xxxxx@hotmail.com]
> > > > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 2:48 AM
> > > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > > Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> > > >
> > > > Looks like DriverStudio (i think including SoftIce) is no more. From:
> > > > http://www.compuware.com/products/devpartner/
> > > > DriverStudio
> > > > As of April 3rd, 2006 the DriverStudio product family has retired. For
> > > > customer support information please contact our FrontLine website.
> > > >
> > > > Why don’t companies make their products open source before they
> > > > abandoned
> > > > them.
> > > >
> > > > –
> > > > Pankaj Garg
> > > > This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties and confers no
> > > > rights.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> > > > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > From:
> > > > xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]
> > > > on
> > > > behalf of Nikolas Stylianides[SMTP:xxxxx@4plus.com]
> > > > > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:16 AM
> > > > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> > > > >
> > > > > > My softice version is 4.05.>
> > > > > >
> > > > > The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The
> > > > > nmsym
> > > > > reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
> > > > > Did you try this and worked?
> > > > >
> > > > Your SI/DS version is very old and obsolete. Support for handling VC7
> > > > symbols which DDK compiler uses was added later. You have two
> > > > options:>
> > > > update SI or force DDK compiler to generate VC6 symbols. It is
> > > > undocumented
> > > > but I wrote here several times how to do it. Search archives. However,
> > > > even
> > > > if you persuade compiler to generate symbols your old SI can handle, I
> > > > seriously doubt such an old version will work with current OSes. Maybe
> > > > if
> > > > you’re using w2k SP0 or XP SP0.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Michal Vodicka
> > > > UPEK, Inc.
> > > > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > > > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > —
> > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

17

Wow, we have one such license because we have an older driver that was
developed with it, and just a couple weeks ago, they tried to hit us up for
renewing maintenance for another year. Glad I told them I wasn’t interested
(mainly because this last year two problems I tried to get support on never
got resolved to my satisfaction).

At 05:48 PM 4/4/2006, you wrote:

Looks like DriverStudio (i think including SoftIce) is no more. From:
http://www.compuware.com/products/devpartner/
DriverStudio
As of April 3rd, 2006 the DriverStudio product family has retired. For
customer support information please contact our FrontLine website.

Why don’t companies make their products open source before they abandoned
them.

Russ Poffenberger
Credence Systems Corp.
xxxxx@credence.com

18

Michal Vodicka wrote:

As for WinDbg, I don’t think its importance ever depended on SoftICE or DS.

No, but windbg was a piece of garbage for a number of years, largely (I
suspect) because serious driver developers used SoftICE instead. I have
little doubt that the very impressive improvements in WinDbg that
started 5 or 6 years ago were, in large part, due to Microsoft’s desire
to win back this fan base. And, given this recent news, I’d say they
were successful.

Yes, it was improved and it is great tool for crash dump analysis. Much better than DS ever was (the GUI part was almost unusable, at least for me). But for debugging you have to connect two computers using a cable which is a PITA and slow. Can it be already connected by USB or Ethernet?

Kernel debugging over 1394/Firewire is a pleasure. It still isn’t real
time, so I do fall back to dbgview if I need to watch a verbose debug
spew while keeping a USB isochronous stream intact, but that’s easy to
deal with.

–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

19

> No, but windbg was a piece of garbage for a number of years, largely (I

suspect) because serious driver developers used SoftICE instead.

I believe it was largely because Microsoft devs used KD, which at that time
was as separate code base.

  • Dan.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Tim Roberts”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite

> Michal Vodicka wrote:
>
>>As for WinDbg, I don’t think its importance ever depended on SoftICE or
>>DS.
>>
>
> No, but windbg was a piece of garbage for a number of years, largely (I
> suspect) because serious driver developers used SoftICE instead. I have
> little doubt that the very impressive improvements in WinDbg that
> started 5 or 6 years ago were, in large part, due to Microsoft’s desire
> to win back this fan base. And, given this recent news, I’d say they
> were successful.
>
>>Yes, it was improved and it is great tool for crash dump analysis. Much
>>better than DS ever was (the GUI part was almost unusable, at least for
>>me). But for debugging you have to connect two computers using a cable
>>which is a PITA and slow. Can it be already connected by USB or Ethernet?
>>
>
> Kernel debugging over 1394/Firewire is a pleasure. It still isn’t real
> time, so I do fall back to dbgview if I need to watch a verbose debug
> spew while keeping a USB isochronous stream intact, but that’s easy to
> deal with.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

20

It would be nice if the docs gave specific USB host cable part numbers. It
is like all the 1394 chipsets on the market. The TI chipset works best with
Via usually acceptable but not quite as stable.

“Doron Holan” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
USB2 support is in and in the latest debugger package. IIRC you need
the OEM to supply a header and you need a “fat” usb cable that acts as a
device between the 2 connectors.

d

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of David J. Craig
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:33 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite

Windbg works well with 1394a if you use cards with the TI chipset, which
OSR
sells. It also works well with serial. I use serial on the target
computers to a serial to USB adapter on my notebook. I use a RJ-45
network
cable to connect the two since those cables are much better serial
cables
than serial cables. The adapter blocks are cute and you wire them
yourself
using the docs from windbg. You can wire them as full null modem serial

cables even though windbg won’t use the handshaking pins. I heard a
rumor
that windbg will work on USB in the future, but I would rather have
1394a or
even 1394b. Just don’t try to debug something on 1394 if you use it for

debugging. Use serial then and do the opposite if you need the serial
port
for another use.

“Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
Well, I use it for 10 years for all w9x and NT versions. There were
problems
and some betas were unstable but for me it definitely produced more
usefulness than problems. I still have SI installed and start it when
need
it for something. It isn’t loaded always just because I usually don’t
need a
debugger; DbgView is quite sufficient for debugging any reasonably
written
code :slight_smile:

As for WinDbg, I don’t think its importance ever depended on SoftICE or
DS.
Yes, it was improved and it is great tool for crash dump analysis. Much
better than DS ever was (the GUI part was almost unusable, at least for
me).
But for debugging you have to connect two computers using a cable which
is a
PITA and slow. Can it be already connected by USB or Ethernet? I guess
I’ll
have to subscribe WinDbg list.

BTW, I tried to send an e-mail to former SI lead developer and it was
undeliverable…

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

> ----------
> From:
>
xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
]
> on behalf of David J. Craig[SMTP:xxxxx@yoshimuni.com]
> Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:05 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
>
> It produced more instability than usefulness. I had tried to use
> BoundsChecker last year and it couldn’t find the IRQL correctly. I
got
> the
> update and it still had problems running on an old video card. The
serial
> connection wouldn’t work either. I gave up.
>
> When I had to do 9x and NT/2000 it was nice to have one debugger to
work
> on
> both and windbg was really unstable. Now windbg is much better, but
with
> the demise of SoftIce I hope they don’t let it drop in importance. We
can
> hope, but I am not optimistic.
>
>
> “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Ugh. Bad news. I can live without debugger as traces are superior for
> debugging but SI was really useful for quick examination of something
> running in system.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michal Vodicka
> UPEK, Inc.
> [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
>
> > ----------
> > From:
> >
xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
]
> > on behalf of Pankaj Garg[SMTP:xxxxx@hotmail.com]
> > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 2:48 AM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: Re:[ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> >
> > Looks like DriverStudio (i think including SoftIce) is no more.
From:
> > http://www.compuware.com/products/devpartner/
> > DriverStudio
> > As of April 3rd, 2006 the DriverStudio product family has retired.
For
> > customer support information please contact our FrontLine website.
> >
> > Why don’t companies make their products open source before they
> > abandoned
> > them.
> >
> > –
> > Pankaj Garg
> > This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties and confers no
> > rights.
> >
> >
> > “Michal Vodicka” wrote in message
> > news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > ----------
> > > From:
> >
xxxxx@lists.osr.com[SMTP:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
]
> > on
> > behalf of Nikolas Stylianides[SMTP:xxxxx@4plus.com]
> > > Reply To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:16 AM
> > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Subject: Re: [ntdev] softice nms + DDK Suite
> > >
> > > > My softice version is 4.05.
> > > >
> > > The traditional way does not work. I have tried that long ago. The

> > > nmsym
> > > reports that no debug information found in either sys or pdb.
> > > Did you try this and worked?
> > >
> > Your SI/DS version is very old and obsolete. Support for handling
VC7
> > symbols which DDK compiler uses was added later. You have two
options:>
> > update SI or force DDK compiler to generate VC6 symbols. It is
> > undocumented
> > but I wrote here several times how to do it. Search archives.
However,
> > even
> > if you persuade compiler to generate symbols your old SI can handle,
I
> > seriously doubt such an old version will work with current OSes.
Maybe
> > if
> > you’re using w2k SP0 or XP SP0.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Michal Vodicka
> > UPEK, Inc.
> > [xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer