Re: value of open-source in the driver community (was "how to execute a process...")

I believe it boils down to what Mr. Farrell pointed out: if my software’s
trivial enough that anyone can duplicate it in a jiffy, maybe it’s not worth
to be protected by the laws of intellectual property. I know that a pretty
common model this side of the water is that intellectual property laws are
there so that I can make a good pass at cornering something as “mine” and
thus ward off competition, but then, isn’t competition the very generator of
a healthy market ?

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Oney [mailto:xxxxx@oneysoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 5:09 PM
To: Windows System Software Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: value of open-source in the driver community (was
“how to execute a process…”)

Bill Casey wrote:

Bottom line is that these “penguinites” as you so politely call
them are
nothing more than lazy, thieving, stupid, fascist, bottom-dwelling
scavengers. They want to impose their socialist world-view (that software
should be free) on all of us. They want it free because in the final
analysis they are cheap assholes cloaked in the mantle of world saviors.

I feel your pain. I think I did more than most to move my own job
offshore, so I shouldn’t complain. To give these folks their due,
they’re just trying to feed their families too. Still, I draw the line
at explaining every last detail of how someone else can do a job that I
studied long and hard to learn.


Walter Oney, Consulting and Training
Basic and Advanced Driver Programming Seminars
Check out our schedule at http://www.oneysoft.com


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
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I’m not an attorney and I may be dead wrong, but I believe that those
“steps” of yours aren’t what should be the object of the patent, or am I
wrong ? A step is just an idea, and as such, I hope it’s not patentable.
It’s the implementation that’s the objective of the patent, and that’s not
about secret steps but about tangible and implementable technology. In that
sense, a listing’s already obsolete the moment it gets out.

So, for example, assume you invented a new computer instruction, call it
“jump from” instead of “jump to”. The idea of a “jump from” instruction
shouldn’t be patentable ! Your implementation of that instruction might be,
but then, I could just as well implement it my own way. And before you jump
in saying that that’s hardware, well, computer instructions today are
implemented in Verilog HDL.

What I also do believe is that the overwhelming majority of software patents
are so trivially obvious that it takes a real flight of fancy to believe
that they’re worth a patent. Because, again, patents should protect
technology and implementation, not science and ideas - and the whole point
of a computer program is to do away with the issues of implementing
technology and replace it with raw ideas embedded in code. I may be wrong,
but I see little if anything in anyone’s software program that can be
patented !

Those steps you mention are science, not technology, and hence they must not
be protected: I should be able to go through the same steps and change my
implementation and yet not violate your patent. It’s your *code* that should
be the object of a patent ! Not your ideas.

Alberto.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Hensley [mailto:xxxxx@msn.com]
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 10:58 PM
To: Windows System Software Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: value of open-source in the driver community (was
“how to execute a process…”)

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:18:49 -0400, “Moreira, Alberto”
wrote:

>
>I believe it boils down to what Mr. Farrell pointed out: if my software’s
>trivial enough that anyone can duplicate it in a jiffy, maybe it’s not
worth
>to be protected by the laws of intellectual property. I know that a pretty
>common model this side of the water is that intellectual property laws are
>there so that I can make a good pass at cornering something as “mine” and
>thus ward off competition, but then, isn’t competition the very generator
of
>a healthy market ?

I believe you may have it backwards. My attorneys have always stressed
that US patent statutes were implemented solely to foster competition.
The US statutes allow you to protect a series of steps that make up a
specific implementation in exchange for revealing those steps to the
world. By revealing the step to the world you are allowing other to
improve upon them and ultimately leap frog you.

Copyrights on the other hand do nothing more than protect against
direct cutting and pasting or translating from one piece of work into
another. They do nothing to protect against someone implementing the
same steps in a different body of work. Unless a GPL work has patent
protection there is little to protect the actual steps revealed in the
work.

This should all be taken with a grain of salt because I’m just
relaying what various attorneys have told me when I was in the process
of filing for various patents and copyrights. I could be completely
wrong and full of bologna.

…John

>
>Alberto.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Walter Oney [mailto:xxxxx@oneysoft.com]
>Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 5:09 PM
>To: Windows System Software Developers Interest List
>Subject: [ntdev] Re: value of open-source in the driver community (was
>“how to execute a process…”)
>
>
>Bill Casey wrote:
>> Bottom line is that these “penguinites” as you so politely call
>them are
>> nothing more than lazy, thieving, stupid, fascist, bottom-dwelling
>> scavengers. They want to impose their socialist world-view (that
software
>> should be free) on all of us. They want it free because in the final
>> analysis they are cheap assholes cloaked in the mantle of world saviors.
>
>I feel your pain. I think I did more than most to move my own job
>offshore, so I shouldn’t complain. To give these folks their due,
>they’re just trying to feed their families too. Still, I draw the line
>at explaining every last detail of how someone else can do a job that I
>studied long and hard to learn.


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

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>The first time I was part of a patent application process I was a

developer in an OS group at a major corporation. I told the PA that my
idea was obvious and trivial and therefore would not be patentable.
He laughed and said that everything is obvious and trivial after
you’ve seen how it works. He then went on to explain that what we
think is obvious and trivial really isn’t because if it truly were,
everyone would already be doing it that way.

Most software patents I perused made me cringe in disbelief, because, well,
they may not be obvious to a lawyer, but I’m a computer science professor
and I know better. Some of it is so screaming obvious that many of us never
bothered to look at it twice, and yet we are often enough surprised by some
dude who takes something we all took for granted and tries to make a pass
for getting a patent over it.

I don’t consider implementation to be innovation. Once someone has
seen an existing implementation it’s usually quite easy to come up
with different implementations that duplicate the underlying
functionality of the original. I would think most people, including
those at the patent office, would define innovation more as
“identifying a need and a solution that satisfies that need”. The raw
ideas are the innovation, not the specific implementation of those
ideas.

But patents aren’t there to protect innovative ideas ! They should be there
to protect innovative gadgets, that is, implementation and technology. The
very fact that it must identify “a need” makes it technology and not
science, hence, technology is patentable, but science ? Why ? Patents were
designed to protect inventions, and science is not about inventing, that’s
for inventors, you know, those guys with the gyro hat and one gear loose.
:slight_smile:

I would suggest spending a few days browsing the software patents that
have been awarded. Each time I receive a stack to review I’m amazed at
some of the things that make me say, “Wow, why didn’t I think of doing
something like that?”.

Oh, believe me, as a software development manater I’ve done it often enough,
and my reaction is often complete disbelief of the things that get
considered to be “innovative” enough to get a patent - makes me wonder about
the level of computer science knowledge of those people who afford such
patents.

I was under the impression that science is the basis for the majority
of patents issued today? Medicine, aerospace, biology, optics,
electronics, etc. Are you saying these things should not be afforded
patent protection?

There’s little computer science that is not published in professional
journals, and little if anything downstream from those embeds any real
innovation. You can patent a gadget, but an equation ? A theory ? A concept
? I hope not. I already cringe seeing algorithms being patented, what, did
they invent the math too ? I don’t know, I think there’s way too much abuse
in that field for me to take it without a big pinch of salt.

But it wasn’t your investment that came up with the raw ideas for
those steps! Someone may have spent 2 years of trial and error coming
up with a new file system that introduces new properties to allow an
OS to do things were not practical in the past. Anyone can implement a
similar file system after they have chance to see it in operation and
explore it’s new properties? Why should they be able to simply copy
what someone else invented at their own expense? What is the incentive
for gambling 2 years of R&D if everyone can just copy it’s unique
design and new features and have a competing product in a month or
two?

Investment alone isn’t enough, you need innovation; because innovation
without investment must also be protected. And most of that innovation comes
from the computer sciency circuit, and is published in professional journals
well before it gets patented by smartasses who take advantage of the
gullibility of the legal profession and their lack of computer science
knowledge. There’s very little software that gets “invented” outside the
researchy circuit, and much of those techniques come from universities and
are published in papers anyway, the rest is pretty much downstream and I
would contend that if it is downstream from published material it doesn’t
deserve that “innovation” title.

I would certainly agree that implementing existing technology in
software should not be patented and I’m not aware of anyone that has
been awarded a patent for doing this. Innovations that are the result
of new ideas not currently seen today should, IMHO, be offered the
same patent protection regardless of the medium of the embodiment, be
it software, hardware, chemical or silly putty.

It doesn’t need to be implementation of existing technology, all it needs to
be is a rehash, reimplementation or a derivation from existing science, and
as far as I’m concerned it’s not entitled to a patent. For example, maybe
Karmarkar was entitled to a patent on his algorithm, although I dispute even
that - but little else in that field will be good enough, IMO, to deserve
that “innovation” label.

Again take everything I say with a grain of salt. I’m not an attorney
nor do I aspire to be one.

Same here. I’m just a layman programming type !

Alberto.

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