Re: Developing countries and programming resources

Dan Partelly wrote:

I never got involved in any politcs , so I dont know why the gouverment isnt
more responsive to such problems.
I guess there are WAY more stringent problems, like integrational issues in
NATO or UE, eliminating corupcy,
reforming the legal system … They made some steps, mainly offereing tax
deductions for COMPANYES which
product software. But it is meaningles to their employess, since the comany
, altough they pay very less, if at
all taxes, wont give them better wages. They’ll keep the advantages for the
owners. And SW is for partys
in USA or other developed conuntres usually, so the comanies make highe
incomes. My country might be a
good place to develope SW as its today.

I sometimes have the feeling that companies outside the industrial west
low-ball contracts, counting on low labor costs to let them build a
product cheaply that they’ll then sell back into the western economies
at huge profits. The trouble is, they often can’t get the skills to
actually fulfill those contracts without getting help from people (like
me and many others who contribute online) who have to pay western rates
for food and lodging. Thus, I get really tired of pleas from third-world
developers with impossible deadlines who’d like free drivers.

The only solution I see for this is governmental subsidies, or
state-sponsored programs, to allow companies in developing countries to
pay third-world prices while allowing providers to receive first-world
fees. Governments regularly do this to nurture manufacturing
infrastructure, so why not software?


Walter Oney, Consulting and Training
Basic and Advanced Driver Programming Seminars
Now teaming with John Hyde for USB Device Engineering Seminars
Check out our schedule at http://www.oneysoft.com

Walter–

First of all, IMHO, making the right outsourcing choices depends highly on
the western contractors skills. Who is to blame if some greedy/incompetent
employer can’t check out a contractor who asks for $1000 dollars to build
the worlds’ best antivirus in 2 weeks?

Secondly, I really don’t think that the on-line sharing of information is
done by the people from the western culture among themselves and
occasionally, thieves from the wild-wild east come and stole all the
valuable information posted on various forums… I can bet my ^ss that we
witness a bi-lateral exchange of information all around the web.

And thirdly, if the quality of the software produced in the East wouldn’t
have been close to the best around, I am 100% sure that management
decisions would have been taken in western companies to cut off no-good
cheap financing and go for the alleged real thing, am I wrong?

–Razvan.

At 11:05 11-12-02 -0500, you wrote:

I sometimes have the feeling that companies outside the industrial west
low-ball contracts, counting on low labor costs to let them build a
product cheaply that they’ll then sell back into the western economies
at huge profits. The trouble is, they often can’t get the skills to
actually fulfill those contracts without getting help from people (like
me and many others who contribute online) who have to pay western rates
for food and lodging. Thus, I get really tired of pleas from third-world
developers with impossible deadlines who’d like free drivers.

>> they often can’t get the skills to actually fulfill those contracts
without getting help from people

> (like me and many others who contribute online)

See, if you wanna help and give free knowledge, doit. If not, simply ignore
their woes for online helping.
Online acitivity is 100% a voluntare activity. Want to help for free, ok.
Not ? Ask for your consulting fee
and abandon free online consulting. In my view , is as simple as this. But
sometimes, even a good strong
online presence can be a marketing trick for a independent consultant, so
you *might* and only might have
benefits. from free consulting.

> often can’t get the skills

Often, indded not. Often not even western comapnies do not, and put on NT
market extremly shitty drivers for
their hardware. I was once puzzeld how a big USA comany (name is irelevant)
involved in storage could
create seriously flawed drivers. I guess they could not secure some good NT
engineeres, or the ones which
they had there seriously bored and very sloopy.

> Thus, I get really tired of pleas from third-world developers with
impossible deadlines who’d like free drivers.

Again, Dont respond them is the easiest solution. You see, I get the same
feeling for NT device driver programmers from
high end countryes , payed with XXXXX US$, which can afford to pay serious
training, but they come on those lists with
“demands” for help , or please please help me woes. They can pay, their
comanyes can pay, but they preffere to woe here.
As always, the truth is in-between. Good ppl on this list not once mentioned
company polices which made driver development
a nightmare. Again , If I dont feel like helping the one which contacted
me, I dont. I especially dont like questions from ppl
which dont have the slightliest clue about what they are talking about, or
never made any effort to read the DDK.

> I see for this is governmental subsidies, or state-sponsored programs

It wont happen. Nor today nor in 10 years. You have to live in such
countryes like ours to gain an insight of why
it really wont happen. It would be far beyond the scope of this mail to even
try to explain this conclusion of mine.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Walter Oney”
Newsgroups: ntfsd
To: “File Systems Developers”
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 6:05 PM
Subject: [ntfsd] Re: Developing countries and programming resources

> Dan Partelly wrote:
> > I never got involved in any politcs , so I dont know why the gouverment
isnt
> > more responsive to such problems.
> > I guess there are WAY more stringent problems, like integrational issues
in
> > NATO or UE, eliminating corupcy,
> > reforming the legal system … They made some steps, mainly offereing
tax
> > deductions for COMPANYES which
> > product software. But it is meaningles to their employess, since the
comany
> > , altough they pay very less, if at
> > all taxes, wont give them better wages. They’ll keep the advantages for
the
> > owners. And SW is for partys
> > in USA or other developed conuntres usually, so the comanies make highe
> > incomes. My country might be a
> > good place to develope SW as its today.
>
> I sometimes have the feeling that companies outside the industrial west
> low-ball contracts, counting on low labor costs to let them build a
> product cheaply that they’ll then sell back into the western economies
> at huge profits. The trouble is, they often can’t get the skills to
> actually fulfill those contracts without getting help from people (like
> me and many others who contribute online) who have to pay western rates
> for food and lodging. Thus, I get really tired of pleas from third-world
> developers with impossible deadlines who’d like free drivers.
>
> The only solution I see for this is governmental subsidies, or
> state-sponsored programs, to allow companies in developing countries to
> pay third-world prices while allowing providers to receive first-world
> fees. Governments regularly do this to nurture manufacturing
> infrastructure, so why not software?
>
> –
> Walter Oney, Consulting and Training
> Basic and Advanced Driver Programming Seminars
> Now teaming with John Hyde for USB Device Engineering Seminars
> Check out our schedule at http://www.oneysoft.com
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@rdsor.ro
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%%
>

> I sometimes have the feeling that companies outside the industrial
west

low-ball contracts, counting on low labor costs to let them build a
product cheaply that they’ll then sell back into the western
economies
at huge profits.

Welcome to globalism :slight_smile:

for food and lodging. Thus, I get really tired of pleas from
third-world
developers with impossible deadlines who’d like free drivers.

From the level of questions asked here on the forum, I can only
conclude that there are lots of companies, whose products I will never
buy and will not even use for free :slight_smile: no wonder MS started the WHQL
initiative, since people often blame MS for third-party driver bugs.

Max

— Walter Oney wrote:

> for food and lodging. Thus, I get really tired of
> pleas from third-world
> developers with impossible deadlines who’d like free
> drivers.

Hey Walter, like Dan said, you don’t have to help
anyone, if you don’t want to. If you do, maybe, you
could try not to crib. :wink:

I also have a feeling that people who ask for help are
not always third world programmers and the ones who do
help are not always first world programmers.

Sitting out there, you wouldn’t understand the
situation in a third world country even if you try. So
forget it… :wink:

Manoj

=====
-----------------------------------
Manoj Paul Joseph,
Chennai (Madras),
India.

________________________________________________________________________
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visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com

Manoj Paul Joseph wrote:

Hey Walter, like Dan said, you don’t have to help
anyone, if you don’t want to. If you do, maybe, you
could try not to crib. :wink:

I think you misunderstand the tenor of what I was saying. As most people
are aware, I provide a *lot* of help online. The discussion concerned
accessibility of books and other training materials that are being
produced at first-world costs. I personally would love to be able to
give people a leg up by travelling to, say, Bucharest, and running a
seminar essentially for free, but my own economic realities don’t make
that possible.

Sitting out there, you wouldn’t understand the
situation in a third world country even if you try. So
forget it… :wink:

I wasn’t trying, because I’m sure you’re right. My comment was to the
effect, “get your governments to help because it will pay off for the
economy of your country.”


Walter Oney, Consulting and Training
Basic and Advanced Driver Programming Seminars
Now teaming with John Hyde for USB Device Engineering Seminars
Check out our schedule at http://www.oneysoft.com

I tried to stay quiet on the subject but (apologies to other list
members):

Walter Oney wrote:

I think you misunderstand the tenor of what I was saying. As most people
are aware, I provide a *lot* of help online. The discussion concerned
accessibility of books and other training materials that are being
produced at first-world costs. I personally would love to be able to give
people a leg up by travelling to, say, Bucharest, and running a seminar
essentially for free, but my own economic realities don’t make that
possible.

If you, as in a person who is probably the best known consultant,
developer and teacher in the field cannot afford that, than I think I really
got the above three adjectives incorrectly declared in my dictionary,
because who else can!:slight_smile:
I certainly am not earning as much as you, even though I can treated
as wealthy by even western standards, and can afford to go to US and other
places just for fun - no vacation.

And, NO, you don’t provide help online. The only posts I saw from
your were gringes about why people don’t use their real e-mail on
newsgroups, instead of NOSPAM ones, and why third world countries don’t help
themselves.

I wasn’t trying, because I’m sure you’re right. My comment was to the
effect, “get your governments to help because it will pay off for the
economy of your country.”

Oh, yeah? We suggested dozens of things, and yet none were
implemented. Why? They didn’t see an immediate tax income from that:-)

Duh!


Kind regards, Dejan M. www.alfasp.com
E-mail: xxxxx@alfasp.com ICQ#: 56570367
Alfa File Monitor - File monitoring library for Win32 developers.
Alfa File Protector - File protection and hiding library for Win32
developers.

I believe that this particular discussion has now moved very far off the
topic of file systems and file systems filter driver development, and I
would kindly request that we turn our attention to the discussion of their
development.

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

> ----------

From: xxxxx@alfasp.com[SMTP:xxxxx@alfasp.com]
Reply To: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:48 AM
To: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Subject: [ntfsd] Re: Developing countries and programming resources

And, NO, you don’t provide help online. The only posts I saw from
your were gringes about why people don’t use their real e-mail on
newsgroups, instead of NOSPAM ones, and why third world countries don’t
help
themselves.

Tony is quite right it is far off topic but above is very unfair. Maybe
Walter isn’t too active in this list but he is in ntdev and newsgroups. Try
to search groups.google.com for messages from him (about 3200 results in two
kernel groups).

Living in middle Europe I can also find his opinion about government a bit
naive but it doesn’t lower his credit in technical areas.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
STMicroelectronics Design and Application s.r.o.
[michal.vodicka@st.com, http:://www.st.com]