Re[2]: X64 Windows Vista to require signed drivers

> Oh no! I forgot about the yearly expiration!

How does that work? Does my signature on last year’s driver get revoked
and then I have to sign it again? That sounds like a stupid thing to do.
Logic tells me that it wouldn’t work that way, but this whole signature
thing is illogical (not so much in its concept but in its implementation
by MS), so who knows?.

If I read the document properly it depends on whether or not you
connected to a time server at the time that you signed the driver with
the certificate.

Robert Newton

The key words here are “pretty good bootlegs”. Low tech methods have
always been there long before media was digital. The media industry
(rightly or wrongly) has always been far more paranoid about the
possibility of pure, no loss, digital copying.

It just occurred to me that the majority of movies online (that have yet
to be released on DVD) start off in a movie
theaters with a camcorder. A lot of bootlegs produced like this are
actually ‘pretty good’.

With that said, how is DRM going to keep me from placing my mic next to
my computer’s speaker and pointing my
web cam at the monitor and recording? If one has an LCD screen, the ugly
refresh rate isn’t going to be seen by
the cam. As a matter of fact, this could also be done with DRM managed
audio…

No need for any high tech kernel hacking to beat DRM. I posted a link
yesterday morning about DRM
monitors; just doing analog recordings in the manner described above
would produce pretty good bootlegs, so what
is the point in MS doing all this high tech crap when it can be bypassed
with low tech methods?

Robert Newton

The reason for the DRM is not to make it secure, but to create the
appearance of security so the RIAA and MPAA will ‘approve’ of Windows being
a way to play music and look at movies. Microsoft has no interest and I
suspect no one else has either in really doing a secure implementation.
Only the content restrictors have this motivation and if they could they
would implement a per use charge after the first initial big charge. Many
in those groups don’t like the idea that you can give away or resell books
or media if you don’t want it anymore as they want to make each new person
pay. One C&W artist once wanted his royality on each transfer.

I would hope, but I am not that foolishly optimistic, that one day they
would realize that most will pay for the entertainment if it is good and
they don’t feel harrassed by DRM protections. There will be those who won’t
pay, but if you don’t make the other angry because of restrictions or just
bad product, they will pay to help produce more. The balance of each group
is important and I do believe that many in the youth believe that it all
should be free, but they are still living a freeloaders and haven’t been
into the real world yet. I do guess the teen market may be the exception,
but then when all their choices disappear maybe even the clueless will wise
up.

“Maxim S. Shatskih” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >Good points. Especially #1 is important but if DRM is the main reason,
> >we’ll
>>probably have to wait until some hackers make patched kernel binaries to
>>prove
>>how the whole signed only idea was stupid.
>
> Doing this for DRM will not hit the target in fact. People will do
> open-source
> software which will decode the DRMed stuff, and this is not punisheable by
> the
> law in many countries (remember DeCSS?). Then people will convert the
> stuff to
> public format like DivX using open source tools on Linux - and go on.
>
> Even a smart (not to say brilliant) people at MS (both Redmond and MS
> Russia)
> are rather agnostic about non-MS possibilities existing. Open source, for
> instance. So, this “agnosticism” could be the cause of such a strange DRM
> measure. The authors of the paper can just not know Linux at all.
>
> Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
> StorageCraft Corporation
> xxxxx@storagecraft.com
> http://www.storagecraft.com
>
>
>

I have noticed this, but they did fight the CD recorders, VCR, and almost
every technology that could duplicate content even if it was cassette. Even
today almost all blank media has a ‘tax’ added to pay them off. I remember
in the 1970’s that a particular VCR had a stabilizer circuit in it. It was
restricted from import to the US. It was sold in the military exchanges
overseas. A copy of a copy guarded video rented in the US would not play on
other machines, but would work just fine with this one. It ran about $1000
for the machine back then.

“Robert Newton” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> The key words here are “pretty good bootlegs”. Low tech methods have
> always been there long before media was digital. The media industry
> (rightly or wrongly) has always been far more paranoid about the
> possibility of pure, no loss, digital copying.
>
>> It just occurred to me that the majority of movies online (that have yet
>> to be released on DVD) start off in a movie
>> theaters with a camcorder. A lot of bootlegs produced like this are
>> actually ‘pretty good’.
>>
>> With that said, how is DRM going to keep me from placing my mic next to
>> my computer’s speaker and pointing my
>> web cam at the monitor and recording? If one has an LCD screen, the ugly
>> refresh rate isn’t going to be seen by
>> the cam. As a matter of fact, this could also be done with DRM managed
>> audio…
>>
>> No need for any high tech kernel hacking to beat DRM. I posted a link
>> yesterday morning about DRM
>> monitors; just doing analog recordings in the manner described above
>> would produce pretty good bootlegs, so what
>> is the point in MS doing all this high tech crap when it can be bypassed
>> with low tech methods?
>
>
> Robert Newton
>
>
>

Well I have just one thing to say, If this is used to protect contents (as
of audio or video) then it hardly makes any difference as finally all these
so called contents comes into analog forms and anyways i can capture them.
Even with something like HDCP, it can be achieved given the fact that
encrypting a session will always work on so called high performance
algorithms(read small key crypto non robust) if you check the HDCP standard
you will realize why I have a comment like this.

Now as far as providing protectioncrypto functions in the very
microprocessor is concerned well what if I have a memory emulators (those
boards with two ports one to connect to the motherboard and another to snoop
around and debug!) these type of boards are common in the embedded system
environment, what will stop someone who really want to break protection from
getting these boards and I mean the real content pirates here!

Again putting keys in microprocessor and crypto co-processos can delay the
breakin for sometime but not forever as remember you are distributing the
keys all the way, and if someone breaks the keys then your protection is
gone all together.

Anyways I think this thread is more on the driver signing issue less on DRM
as DRM by definition is weak and breakable. you are giving key, encrypted
text and crypto algorithm all to the attacker and then trying to defend the
encrypted text, how long can you defend it? All the security can be achieved
through obscurity which is never considered as secure anyway!

On 1/26/06, Jan Bottorff wrote:
>
> > One more thing! btw I dont understand one thing, Is this policy really
> > enforcable to the extent that no one can break it? I mean what it will
> > take to patch the kernel mode crypto code to let pass everything! As
> > long as memory is not shadowed or protected one can always do this
> > although it will be much harder! remember all PCs (to the best of
> > my knowledge!) start in the real mode so if one really wants to
> > bring down this signing mechanism, what I mean to say is that
> > all these mechanisims are NOT enforcable and not resistant
> > to patching ofcourse!
>
> If you read the AMD docs on their upcoming virtualization architecture
> there
> is also documentation on a facility to allow the processor to shift from
> an
> unverified mode, to a verified mode. This basically works by having an
> instruction that takes a signed code block. The signed code block’s
> signature is checked by the processor (actually I believe a security
> coprocessor) and control is transferred to it. You can bet there will not
> be
> many ways to get that core chunk of secure code signed. Once you are
> executing guaranteed secure code, it can verify the signature on other
> kernel components.
>
> I’d have to investigate further if this can protect memory from things
> like
> bus master DMA. It could prevent loading a bus master driver for hardware
> that didn’t do “secure” bus mastering. They could also have a way to lock
> the secure code in the cache, with no snooped changes. A little help from
> the motherboard chipset could further lock down a system, by making all
> DMA
> go through “map registers”. The OS could then absolutely control what
> memory
> could be accessed/changed by devices by only allowing a secure part of the
> OS to program those map registers (aren’t you glad you called the Windows
> DMA functions and didn’t just cheat on DMA programming).
>
> Another attack would be to run the OS on an emulated processor. Of course
> an
> emulated processor would not know the proper key to decrypt the initial
> secure code block, so it could never start the OS.
>
> Whoever controls the root crypto key will have ultimate control over what
> code runs or not. This absolutely could prevent unapproved OS’s from
> running, by having the BIOS code shift into secure mode. You might also
> allow both secure (Windows) and non-secure (Linux) OS’s to run, but only
> secure OS’s could run secure kernel components, and play DRM protected
> media. This could be extended to only allowing DRM secure systems access
> to
> the Internet. I’ve always believed a potential solution to Internet
> security
> is strong authentication. Spam only works because you can’t easily prove
> its
> source. I have zero problem always accessing the Internet as an
> authenticated me. Actually, since I use a static IP address, I already am
> traceable (ok not me absolutely, but my household). This seems like an
> opportunity for Microsoft to badly hurt Linux, and all they have to do is
> get on the DRM bandwagon with the media companies. This way it’s Disney
> who
> hurt Linux, not Microsoft. Disney has valid business reasons to protect
> their content, and as soon as Linux delivers DRM secure capability, they
> will be Disney’s friend too. I’d be all for a secure OS if it means I
> don’t
> have to renew my antivirus subscription ever again.
>
> If you were AMD or Intel, you might be able to slice open the processor
> chip
> and use your electron microscope (or whatever) to read the secure key,
> although your typical teenage hacker would not have facilities like this.
> There is quite a bit known about designing secure processors, and assume
> AMD
> and Intel could easily apply those techniques. Or there is a separate
> secure
> coprocessor on the motherboard.
>
> None of this is really a problem for developers. You could have the secure
> DRM components only allow access to test DRM protected content when in
> development mode. You could also have some DRM protected content with a
> production key that its owners didn’t care about protecting, so you could
> eliminate the argument of not testing REAL content. Patching the code in
> development mode is useless, as the patched binary will no longer run. The
> public security key is stored in the secure coprocessor, NOT in any files
> on
> your computer. It’s computationally impossible (until we get quantum
> computers) to figure out the private key based on having the signature, so
> properly implemented, it can’t be bypassed.
>
> Being a relative old timer in the computer industry (I’m 48 now), I’ve
> seen
> people get comfy and grumble at even the slightest change to the status
> quo,
> over and over. I WANT computers to evolve, things are REALLY broken right
> now. We know how to make better information systems, let’s do so. It’s
> REALLY cheap to have the tools needed to write software, next time you get
> an MRI, consider what it would be like if kernel debuggers cost what MRI
> machines cost (about $2 million bucks).
>
> - Jan
>
>
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@gmail.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>


Ankit Raizada
Room No. 349
Boys Hostel
IIITA Campus
Deoghat Jhalwa
Allahabad - 211012
Email: xxxxx@iiita.ac.in
xxxxx@yahoo.com
xxxxx@gmail.com

I also remember the media companies to suffocate the DAT audio tape
technology in early-mid 90ies.

Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

----- Original Message -----
From: “David J. Craig”
Newsgroups: ntdev
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:26 PM
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Re[2]: X64 Windows Vista to require signed drivers

> I have noticed this, but they did fight the CD recorders, VCR, and almost
> every technology that could duplicate content even if it was cassette. Even
> today almost all blank media has a ‘tax’ added to pay them off. I remember
> in the 1970’s that a particular VCR had a stabilizer circuit in it. It was
> restricted from import to the US. It was sold in the military exchanges
> overseas. A copy of a copy guarded video rented in the US would not play on
> other machines, but would work just fine with this one. It ran about $1000
> for the machine back then.
>
> “Robert Newton” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > The key words here are “pretty good bootlegs”. Low tech methods have
> > always been there long before media was digital. The media industry
> > (rightly or wrongly) has always been far more paranoid about the
> > possibility of pure, no loss, digital copying.
> >
> >> It just occurred to me that the majority of movies online (that have yet
> >> to be released on DVD) start off in a movie
> >> theaters with a camcorder. A lot of bootlegs produced like this are
> >> actually ‘pretty good’.
> >>
> >> With that said, how is DRM going to keep me from placing my mic next to
> >> my computer’s speaker and pointing my
> >> web cam at the monitor and recording? If one has an LCD screen, the ugly
> >> refresh rate isn’t going to be seen by
> >> the cam. As a matter of fact, this could also be done with DRM managed
> >> audio…
> >>
> >> No need for any high tech kernel hacking to beat DRM. I posted a link
> >> yesterday morning about DRM
> >> monitors; just doing analog recordings in the manner described above
> >> would produce pretty good bootlegs, so what
> >> is the point in MS doing all this high tech crap when it can be bypassed
> >> with low tech methods?
> >
> >
> > Robert Newton
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@storagecraft.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com