Random Number generation

Hi All ,

I am want to generate a random number in the NDIS driver. I don’t find any
appropreiate equivalent function.
How do we generate a random number in the kernel. All your suggestions are
appreciated.

Thanks,
Cyril

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Try searching the archive for RtlRandom. It’s not in my DDK documentation,
but I can see it with “x Win32k!*random*” in WinDBG, and I’m sure it was
talked about a little while ago in this mailing list.


Mats

xxxxx@lists.osr.com wrote on 10/08/2004 01:57:23 PM:

Hi All ,

I am want to generate a random number in the NDIS driver. I don’t find
any
appropreiate equivalent function.
How do we generate a random number in the kernel. All your suggestions
are
appreciated.

Thanks,
Cyril

***************************************************************************

This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL)
and is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it
is addressed. It may contain privileged or confidential information
and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for
what it is intended.

If you have received this message in error, please notify the
originator immediately. If you are not the intended recipient,
you are notified that you are strictly prohibited from using,
copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message.
FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from
the use of the information transmitted by this email including
damage from virus.

***************************************************************************


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Use:

ULONG RtlRandomEx ( IN OUT PULONG Seed );

or

ULONG RtlRandom( IN OUT PULONG Seed );

This is in the IFS kit but not the DDK, I am not sure if RtlRandomEx is in
2000. Be aware that your driver will not pass WHQL since this is not a
blessed function for NDIS.


Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Remove StopSpam from the email to reply

“Sagayac” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Hi All ,
>
> I am want to generate a random number in the NDIS driver. I don’t find any
> appropreiate equivalent function.
> How do we generate a random number in the kernel. All your suggestions are
> appreciated.
>

RtlRandom and RtlRandomEx are defined in the IFS kit. The both take a PULONG
seed argument and the Ex version claims to be superior.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Mats PETERSSON
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 9:04 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Random Number generation

Try searching the archive for RtlRandom. It’s not in my DDK
documentation, but I can see it with “x Win32k!*random*” in
WinDBG, and I’m sure it was talked about a little while ago
in this mailing list.


Mats

xxxxx@lists.osr.com wrote on 10/08/2004 01:57:23 PM:

> Hi All ,
>
> I am want to generate a random number in the NDIS driver. I
don’t find
any
> appropreiate equivalent function.
> How do we generate a random number in the kernel. All your
suggestions
are
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Cyril
>
>
>
>
>
**************************************************************
*************
> This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL) and is
> intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is
addressed.
> It may contain privileged or confidential information and
should not
> be circulated or used for any purpose other than for what it is
> intended.
>
> If you have received this message in error, please notify the
> originator immediately. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are
> notified that you are strictly prohibited from using, copying,
> altering, or disclosing the contents of this message.
> FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising
from the use
> of the information transmitted by this email including damage from
> virus.
>
**************************************************************
*************
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.
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>
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Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

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xxxxx@lists.osr.com

It’s also actually trivial to write your own robust pseudo-random number
generator. Use Mitchell and Moore’s additive generator described by
Knuth (in Seminumerical Algorithms). It’s insanely fast, has a huge
period, and other desireable properties of a pseudo-random number
generator. Note if you do write your own, and you care about the
“randomness” of your numbers, use an established and preferrably
well-studied algorithm (there’s lots of interesting ones in Knuth), and
don’t mess with it, unless you’re really really really good at math.
It’s quite hard to make a sequence more random, yet extremely easy to
make one less random.

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: “Don Burn”
Newsgroups: ntdev
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 8:18 PM
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Random Number generation

> Use:
>
> ULONG RtlRandomEx ( IN OUT PULONG Seed );
>
> or
>
> ULONG RtlRandom( IN OUT PULONG Seed );
>
> This is in the IFS kit but not the DDK, I am not sure if RtlRandomEx
> is in
> 2000. Be aware that your driver will not pass WHQL since this is not
> a
> blessed function for NDIS.
>
>
> –
> Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
> Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
> Remove StopSpam from the email to reply
>
> “Sagayac” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>> Hi All ,
>>
>> I am want to generate a random number in the NDIS driver. I don’t
>> find any
>> appropreiate equivalent function.
>> How do we generate a random number in the kernel. All your
>> suggestions are
>> appreciated.
>>
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@cbatson.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

> It’s also actually trivial to write your own robust

pseudo-random number
generator. Use Mitchell and Moore’s additive generator described by
Knuth (in Seminumerical Algorithms). It’s insanely fast, has a huge
period, and other desireable properties of a pseudo-random number
generator. Note if you do write your own, and you care about the
“randomness” of your numbers, use an established and preferrably
well-studied algorithm (there’s lots of interesting ones in
Knuth), and
don’t mess with it, unless you’re really really really good at math.
It’s quite hard to make a sequence more random, yet extremely easy to
make one less random.

Not to thread hijack (sorry OP), but I’ve recently been curious about good
seed sources for a PRNG in kernel-mode during various stages of boot. My
understanding is that the crypto API in user-mode (aside from allowing the
caller to supply their own entropy) gathers entropy from various info
classes (SystemPerformanceInformation, SystemTimeOfDayInformation,
SystemProcessorStatistics, etc).

During various stages of boot this information is likely to not have a wide
range of variance other than TimeOfDay which, for one who desires a
cryptographically secure PRNG, is not a positive thing. Am I correct in
thinking that this information will not vary much?

Aside from info classes, what are some other sources that are portable and
good for gathering entropy (portable from W2K+) that don’t require intrusive
means of obtaining them?

On x86, you can use the TimeStampCounter, with the RDTSC instruction.
That’s a 64-bit number that wraps every two seconds (@2GHz, obviously every
4 seconds at 1GHz, etc) on the lower 32-bits, so pretty much random from
start of the machine, unless your driver is the very first to start. And as
far as I can tell, it’s precise to within 2 bits of the whole range, so you
have 31 bits of relatively “random” data.

TSC is available on Pentium/AMD K5 and onwards. It’s also available on
AMD64. I’m unsure about the availability on Itanium, but I would certainly
assume that it’s there too.

Also, Windows NT+ has a “time of day” that is precise to 100ns (although
maybe only updated very x ms), which if you only take the lower part of it,
will be relatively random, but not half as good as TSC.

If you want less portable methods (I’m only mentioning this for
completeness), you can read the 8254 Timer/Counter chip, which has a set of
counters that will have some “random” count in them, located IO port
0x40-0x43. That’s not available on Itanium, I would expect, and also
possibly going away on modern PC’s, but it’s required for DOS-compatibility
(really well-behaved DOS apps will work without it, but anything like
Borland Pascal or Turbo C/C++ based apps would definitely have problems
with running on a machine that doesn’t have this hardware, same with many
other apps based on MS Compilers, I would suspect).


Mats

xxxxx@lists.osr.com wrote on 10/08/2004 03:55:39 PM:

> It’s also actually trivial to write your own robust
> pseudo-random number
> generator. Use Mitchell and Moore’s additive generator described by
> Knuth (in Seminumerical Algorithms). It’s insanely fast, has a huge
> period, and other desireable properties of a pseudo-random number
> generator. Note if you do write your own, and you care about the
> “randomness” of your numbers, use an established and preferrably
> well-studied algorithm (there’s lots of interesting ones in
> Knuth), and
> don’t mess with it, unless you’re really really really good at math.
> It’s quite hard to make a sequence more random, yet extremely easy to
> make one less random.

Not to thread hijack (sorry OP), but I’ve recently been curious about
good
seed sources for a PRNG in kernel-mode during various stages of boot. My
understanding is that the crypto API in user-mode (aside from allowing
the
caller to supply their own entropy) gathers entropy from various info
classes (SystemPerformanceInformation, SystemTimeOfDayInformation,
SystemProcessorStatistics, etc).

During various stages of boot this information is likely to not have a
wide
range of variance other than TimeOfDay which, for one who desires a
cryptographically secure PRNG, is not a positive thing. Am I correct in
thinking that this information will not vary much?

Aside from info classes, what are some other sources that are portable
and
good for gathering entropy (portable from W2K+) that don’t require
intrusive
means of obtaining them?


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.
osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@3dlabs.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

ForwardSourceID:NT00004FE6

DES is an excellent PRNG, as is most any other robust encryption cipher.

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

Looking forward to seeing you at the Next OSR File Systems Class October
18, 2004 in Silicon Valley!

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Matt Miller
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:56 AM
To: ntdev redirect
Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] Random Number generation

It’s also actually trivial to write your own robust
pseudo-random number
generator. Use Mitchell and Moore’s additive generator described by
Knuth (in Seminumerical Algorithms). It’s insanely fast, has a huge
period, and other desireable properties of a pseudo-random number
generator. Note if you do write your own, and you care about the
“randomness” of your numbers, use an established and preferrably
well-studied algorithm (there’s lots of interesting ones in
Knuth), and
don’t mess with it, unless you’re really really really good at math.
It’s quite hard to make a sequence more random, yet extremely easy to
make one less random.

Not to thread hijack (sorry OP), but I’ve recently been curious about
good
seed sources for a PRNG in kernel-mode during various stages of boot.
My
understanding is that the crypto API in user-mode (aside from allowing
the
caller to supply their own entropy) gathers entropy from various info
classes (SystemPerformanceInformation, SystemTimeOfDayInformation,
SystemProcessorStatistics, etc).

During various stages of boot this information is likely to not have a
wide
range of variance other than TimeOfDay which, for one who desires a
cryptographically secure PRNG, is not a positive thing. Am I correct in
thinking that this information will not vary much?

Aside from info classes, what are some other sources that are portable
and
good for gathering entropy (portable from W2K+) that don’t require
intrusive
means of obtaining them?


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@osr.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

I imagine the CPU’s cycle counter (i.e., rdtsc) would be sufficient.

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: “Matt Miller”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 9:55 PM
Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] Random Number generation

>> It’s also actually trivial to write your own robust
>> pseudo-random number
>> generator. Use Mitchell and Moore’s additive generator described by
>> Knuth (in Seminumerical Algorithms). It’s insanely fast, has a huge
>> period, and other desireable properties of a pseudo-random number
>> generator. Note if you do write your own, and you care about the
>> “randomness” of your numbers, use an established and preferrably
>> well-studied algorithm (there’s lots of interesting ones in
>> Knuth), and
>> don’t mess with it, unless you’re really really really good at math.
>> It’s quite hard to make a sequence more random, yet extremely easy to
>> make one less random.
>
> Not to thread hijack (sorry OP), but I’ve recently been curious about
> good
> seed sources for a PRNG in kernel-mode during various stages of boot.
> My
> understanding is that the crypto API in user-mode (aside from allowing
> the
> caller to supply their own entropy) gathers entropy from various info
> classes (SystemPerformanceInformation, SystemTimeOfDayInformation,
> SystemProcessorStatistics, etc).
>
> During various stages of boot this information is likely to not have a
> wide
> range of variance other than TimeOfDay which, for one who desires a
> cryptographically secure PRNG, is not a positive thing. Am I correct
> in
> thinking that this information will not vary much?
>
> Aside from info classes, what are some other sources that are portable
> and
> good for gathering entropy (portable from W2K+) that don’t require
> intrusive
> means of obtaining them?
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@cbatson.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

However, Mitchell & Moore’s additive method requires all of four adds
and two compares per generated number, quite a bit less involved than
DES. Put this way, I wouldn’t trust myself to write a DES
implementation that didn’t start out with one or more subtle bugs. :slight_smile:

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: “Tony Mason”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:11 PM
Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] Random Number generation

> DES is an excellent PRNG, as is most any other robust encryption
> cipher.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tony
>
> Tony Mason
> Consulting Partner
> OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
> http://www.osr.com
>
> Looking forward to seeing you at the Next OSR File Systems Class
> October
> 18, 2004 in Silicon Valley!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Matt Miller
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:56 AM
> To: ntdev redirect
> Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] Random Number generation
>
>> It’s also actually trivial to write your own robust
>> pseudo-random number
>> generator. Use Mitchell and Moore’s additive generator described by
>> Knuth (in Seminumerical Algorithms). It’s insanely fast, has a huge
>> period, and other desireable properties of a pseudo-random number
>> generator. Note if you do write your own, and you care about the
>> “randomness” of your numbers, use an established and preferrably
>> well-studied algorithm (there’s lots of interesting ones in
>> Knuth), and
>> don’t mess with it, unless you’re really really really good at math.
>> It’s quite hard to make a sequence more random, yet extremely easy to
>> make one less random.
>
> Not to thread hijack (sorry OP), but I’ve recently been curious about
> good
> seed sources for a PRNG in kernel-mode during various stages of boot.
> My
> understanding is that the crypto API in user-mode (aside from allowing
> the
> caller to supply their own entropy) gathers entropy from various info
> classes (SystemPerformanceInformation, SystemTimeOfDayInformation,
> SystemProcessorStatistics, etc).
>
> During various stages of boot this information is likely to not have a
> wide
> range of variance other than TimeOfDay which, for one who desires a
> cryptographically secure PRNG, is not a positive thing. Am I correct
> in
> thinking that this information will not vary much?
>
> Aside from info classes, what are some other sources that are portable
> and
> good for gathering entropy (portable from W2K+) that don’t require
> intrusive
> means of obtaining them?
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@osr.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag
> argument: ‘’
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

Unless we’re talking about a vast number of random numbers here, the
specific algorithm probably doesn’t really matter provided that it has
good scatter characteristics. I only suggest the DES approach since
there’s a DES implementation embedded in Windows anyway.

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

Looking forward to seeing you at the Next OSR File Systems Class October
18, 2004 in Silicon Valley!

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Batson
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 11:36 AM
To: ntdev redirect
Subject: Re: Re:[ntdev] Random Number generation

However, Mitchell & Moore’s additive method requires all of four adds
and two compares per generated number, quite a bit less involved than
DES. Put this way, I wouldn’t trust myself to write a DES
implementation that didn’t start out with one or more subtle bugs. :slight_smile:

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: “Tony Mason”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:11 PM
Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] Random Number generation

> DES is an excellent PRNG, as is most any other robust encryption
> cipher.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tony
>
> Tony Mason
> Consulting Partner
> OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
> http://www.osr.com
>
> Looking forward to seeing you at the Next OSR File Systems Class
> October
> 18, 2004 in Silicon Valley!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Matt Miller
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:56 AM
> To: ntdev redirect
> Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] Random Number generation
>
>> It’s also actually trivial to write your own robust
>> pseudo-random number
>> generator. Use Mitchell and Moore’s additive generator described by
>> Knuth (in Seminumerical Algorithms). It’s insanely fast, has a huge
>> period, and other desireable properties of a pseudo-random number
>> generator. Note if you do write your own, and you care about the
>> “randomness” of your numbers, use an established and preferrably
>> well-studied algorithm (there’s lots of interesting ones in
>> Knuth), and
>> don’t mess with it, unless you’re really really really good at math.
>> It’s quite hard to make a sequence more random, yet extremely easy to
>> make one less random.
>
> Not to thread hijack (sorry OP), but I’ve recently been curious about
> good
> seed sources for a PRNG in kernel-mode during various stages of boot.
> My
> understanding is that the crypto API in user-mode (aside from allowing
> the
> caller to supply their own entropy) gathers entropy from various info
> classes (SystemPerformanceInformation, SystemTimeOfDayInformation,
> SystemProcessorStatistics, etc).
>
> During various stages of boot this information is likely to not have a
> wide
> range of variance other than TimeOfDay which, for one who desires a
> cryptographically secure PRNG, is not a positive thing. Am I correct
> in
> thinking that this information will not vary much?
>
> Aside from info classes, what are some other sources that are portable
> and
> good for gathering entropy (portable from W2K+) that don’t require
> intrusive
> means of obtaining them?
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@osr.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag
> argument: ‘’
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@osr.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

Thanks to all for your valuable suggestions.

Thanks,
Cyril

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Batson
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 9:06 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: Re:[ntdev] Random Number generation

However, Mitchell & Moore’s additive method requires all of four adds
and two compares per generated number, quite a bit less involved than
DES. Put this way, I wouldn’t trust myself to write a DES
implementation that didn’t start out with one or more subtle bugs. :slight_smile:

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: “Tony Mason”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:11 PM
Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] Random Number generation

> DES is an excellent PRNG, as is most any other robust encryption
> cipher.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tony
>
> Tony Mason
> Consulting Partner
> OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
> http://www.osr.com
>
> Looking forward to seeing you at the Next OSR File Systems Class
> October
> 18, 2004 in Silicon Valley!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Matt Miller
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:56 AM
> To: ntdev redirect
> Subject: RE: Re:[ntdev] Random Number generation
>
>> It’s also actually trivial to write your own robust
>> pseudo-random number
>> generator. Use Mitchell and Moore’s additive generator described by
>> Knuth (in Seminumerical Algorithms). It’s insanely fast, has a huge
>> period, and other desireable properties of a pseudo-random number
>> generator. Note if you do write your own, and you care about the
>> “randomness” of your numbers, use an established and preferrably
>> well-studied algorithm (there’s lots of interesting ones in
>> Knuth), and
>> don’t mess with it, unless you’re really really really good at math.
>> It’s quite hard to make a sequence more random, yet extremely easy to
>> make one less random.
>
> Not to thread hijack (sorry OP), but I’ve recently been curious about
> good
> seed sources for a PRNG in kernel-mode during various stages of boot.
> My
> understanding is that the crypto API in user-mode (aside from allowing
> the
> caller to supply their own entropy) gathers entropy from various info
> classes (SystemPerformanceInformation, SystemTimeOfDayInformation,
> SystemProcessorStatistics, etc).
>
> During various stages of boot this information is likely to not have a
> wide
> range of variance other than TimeOfDay which, for one who desires a
> cryptographically secure PRNG, is not a positive thing. Am I correct
> in
> thinking that this information will not vary much?
>
> Aside from info classes, what are some other sources that are portable
> and
> good for gathering entropy (portable from W2K+) that don’t require
> intrusive
> means of obtaining them?
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@osr.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: unknown lmsubst tag
> argument: ‘’
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@future.futsoft.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com


This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL)
and is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it
is addressed. It may contain privileged or confidential information
and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for
what it is intended.

If you have received this message in error, please notify the
originator immediately. If you are not the intended recipient,
you are notified that you are strictly prohibited from using,
copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message.
FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from
the use of the information transmitted by this email including
damage from virus.