Possible NTDEV Policy Change? Close list to public? Discontinue Web Interface for READ?

NTDEV Members:

A) As you probably know, there are three ways to read the NTDEV/NTFSD lists:

  1. Via email – List listserv
  2. Via newsreader – Like usenet
  3. Via the web interface at www.osronline.com

We propose to DISCONTINUE the web option, as it is seldom used. Let us know
if you care.

We will KEEP the interface that allows you to maintain your list membership
settings via the web. We are NOT proposing to remove this feature.

B) While only members may post comments to the list, the NTDEV and NTFSD
lists are available to the public via the web interface as well as via the
newsreader interface.

We propose to DISCONTINUE public access to the list via newsreader or web,
and only allow members to read messages posted to the list. Our goal for
this proposal is to reduce spam to our members. Let us know if you care.

This change is the result of our instituting a very cool and accurate
thread-based search facility from the www.osronline.com home page. We
propose that THIS interface remain public (note that email addresses in this
seach facility are obscured).

Because these lists are run for the benefit of the community, we want to
know your opinions on this topic. Of course, we’re intersted in your
opinions on any other topics regarding the list as well. Please feel free
to send comments OFF LIST to xxxxx@lists.osr.com.

Thanks,

Peter
List Slave Emeritus

The web interface can go at your discretion as far as I am concerned.

Since anyone can become a member (and thereby send SPAM) I am not sure that
you will improve the situation much.

The only way I know of to reduce list spam takes manual intervention. One
way is to have a mode where new members postings are initally moderated. If
they appear legitimate, then the moderator can change the member’s mode to
allow future posts to be unmoderated. This solves the problem of a guy
joining the list (with disposable email address) soley for posting one spam
message (This is becomming common).

I not get about 300+ SPAM/virus emails a day, with only a small handful of
legitimate mesages. It is truly an overwhelming problem.

Thomas F. Divine

“Peter Viscarola” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> NTDEV Members:
>
> A) As you probably know, there are three ways to read the NTDEV/NTFSD
lists:
>
> 1) Via email – List listserv
> 2) Via newsreader – Like usenet
> 3) Via the web interface at www.osronline.com
>
> We propose to DISCONTINUE the web option, as it is seldom used. Let us
know
> if you care.
>
> We will KEEP the interface that allows you to maintain your list
membership
> settings via the web. We are NOT proposing to remove this feature.
>
> B) While only members may post comments to the list, the NTDEV and NTFSD
> lists are available to the public via the web interface as well as via the
> newsreader interface.
>
> We propose to DISCONTINUE public access to the list via newsreader or web,
> and only allow members to read messages posted to the list. Our goal for
> this proposal is to reduce spam to our members. Let us know if you care.
>
> This change is the result of our instituting a very cool and accurate
> thread-based search facility from the www.osronline.com home page. We
> propose that THIS interface remain public (note that email addresses in
this
> seach facility are obscured).
>
> Because these lists are run for the benefit of the community, we want to
> know your opinions on this topic. Of course, we’re intersted in your
> opinions on any other topics regarding the list as well. Please feel free
> to send comments OFF LIST to xxxxx@lists.osr.com.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
> List Slave Emeritus
>
>
>
>

“Thomas F. Divine” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
>
> The only way I know of to reduce list spam takes manual intervention. One
> way is to have a mode where new members postings are initally moderated.
>

> message (This is becomming common).


I am not aware of ANY spam traversing this list or being sent out via our
list server. None. Ever. If this is NOT the case, you should let me know
IMMEDIATELY, supplying the smtp headers. I know that I’ve NEVER seen a piece
of spam go through our list server, and I don’t see any in the archives.

It seems to me that moderating the postings would only stop people from
posting spam to the list. Since there IS no spam posted to the list, at
least as far as I know, I don’t think this would help.

Please note that some spammers use Lyris for ourgoing mailings… You should
not conclude that because something comes from Lyris that it comes from OSR.

The problem we’re trying to address with closing access to the lists is
people harvesting email addresses from the lists. Note the we don’t think
this is a BIG problem (note that, because of they way they are organized,
NTFSD.org and NTDEV.org are likely a far bigger problem than the lists
themselves. Note that NTDEV.org and NTFSD.org are not run by OSR – though
we’ve offered numerous times to take them over (the current owner feels that
we should pay him for this privilged, which is not bloddy likely)).

>
> I not get about 300+ SPAM/virus emails a day, with only a small handful of
> legitimate mesages. It is truly an overwhelming problem.
>

Oh, yeah! Of course! We’re finding that over 60% of the email to osr.com
is SPAM, much of it of the most vile and disgusting sort.

We need to try to do something to make it less easy for these people…

Peter

You said "Our goal for this proposal is to reduce spam to our members. ".

I did not understand which aspect of spam you are addressing.

Certainly do anything that helps.

Thomas

“Peter Viscarola” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
>
> “Thomas F. Divine” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> >
> > The only way I know of to reduce list spam takes manual intervention.
One
> > way is to have a mode where new members postings are initally moderated.
> >
> …
> > message (This is becomming common).
> …
>
> I am not aware of ANY spam traversing this list or being sent out via our
> list server. None. Ever. If this is NOT the case, you should let me know
> IMMEDIATELY, supplying the smtp headers. I know that I’ve NEVER seen a
piece
> of spam go through our list server, and I don’t see any in the archives.
>
> It seems to me that moderating the postings would only stop people from
> posting spam to the list. Since there IS no spam posted to the list, at
> least as far as I know, I don’t think this would help.
>
> Please note that some spammers use Lyris for ourgoing mailings… You
should
> not conclude that because something comes from Lyris that it comes from
OSR.
>
> The problem we’re trying to address with closing access to the lists is
> people harvesting email addresses from the lists. Note the we don’t think
> this is a BIG problem (note that, because of they way they are organized,
> NTFSD.org and NTDEV.org are likely a far bigger problem than the lists
> themselves. Note that NTDEV.org and NTFSD.org are not run by OSR –
though
> we’ve offered numerous times to take them over (the current owner feels
that
> we should pay him for this privilged, which is not bloddy likely)).
>
> >
> > I not get about 300+ SPAM/virus emails a day, with only a small handful
of
> > legitimate mesages. It is truly an overwhelming problem.
> >
>
> Oh, yeah! Of course! We’re finding that over 60% of the email to osr.com
> is SPAM, much of it of the most vile and disgusting sort.
>
> We need to try to do something to make it less easy for these people…
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>

Well, I’m mostly to blame for Peter’s sudden interest in spam. I sent
mail to Peter, asking if it were possible to reduce the public
(unauthenticated) exposure of the NTDEV/NTFSD lists. (I’m fairly
certain that my own address was harvested due to posting on NTDEV/NTFSD,
because I’ve been excruciatingly cautious with this address.)

Peter pointed out that the archives do obfuscate addresses (although
some spammers have caught on to this, and convert at back to @, etc.).
I’m happy to see this – I had assumed that the archives on ntdev.org
were current, and did not realize that 1) Peter is not responsible for
them, and 2) that they are not current; they end in December 2002.

My main concern is not the lists being used as a means to deliver spam
(easily prevented), but as a means to harvest email addresses.

I think the web search interface is not too vulnerable – spammers would
have to seed search URLs with random terms into their harvesters.
(Although – who knows? – they might already do this.) I think any
NNTP interface is far more vulnerable, because the spammers would only
need to create a single account, then have their harvester use NNTP,
which provides lots of standardized ways to enumerate messages, headers,
etc.

Personally, I vote:

  • To turn off NNTP access
  • To require that web searches be authenticated

I know this requires monkeying with the web site, which costs time. Yet
more productivity lost to spam. Sigh.

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Thomas F. Divine
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 1:00 PM
To: Windows System Software Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: Possible NTDEV Policy Change? Close list to public?
Discontinue Web Interface for READ?

You said "Our goal for this proposal is to reduce spam to our members.
".

I did not understand which aspect of spam you are addressing.

Certainly do anything that helps.

Thomas

“Peter Viscarola” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
>
> “Thomas F. Divine” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> >
> > The only way I know of to reduce list spam takes manual
> > intervention.
One
> > way is to have a mode where new members postings are initally
> > moderated.
> >
> …
> > message (This is becomming common).
> …
>
> I am not aware of ANY spam traversing this list or being sent out via
> our list server. None. Ever. If this is NOT the case, you should let

> me know IMMEDIATELY, supplying the smtp headers. I know that I’ve
> NEVER seen a
piece
> of spam go through our list server, and I don’t see any in the
> archives.
>
> It seems to me that moderating the postings would only stop people
> from posting spam to the list. Since there IS no spam posted to the
> list, at least as far as I know, I don’t think this would help.
>
> Please note that some spammers use Lyris for ourgoing mailings… You
should
> not conclude that because something comes from Lyris that it comes
> from
OSR.
>
> The problem we’re trying to address with closing access to the lists
> is people harvesting email addresses from the lists. Note the we
> don’t think this is a BIG problem (note that, because of they way they

> are organized, NTFSD.org and NTDEV.org are likely a far bigger problem

> than the lists themselves. Note that NTDEV.org and NTFSD.org are not
> run by OSR –
though
> we’ve offered numerous times to take them over (the current owner
> feels
that
> we should pay him for this privilged, which is not bloddy likely)).
>
> >
> > I not get about 300+ SPAM/virus emails a day, with only a small
> > handful
of
> > legitimate mesages. It is truly an overwhelming problem.
> >
>
> Oh, yeah! Of course! We’re finding that over 60% of the email to
> osr.com is SPAM, much of it of the most vile and disgusting sort.
>
> We need to try to do something to make it less easy for these
> people…
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

“Arlie Davis” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
>
> Personally, I vote:
> - To turn off NNTP access

Turning off NNTP access to the list is not an option. This is the method
that many users (including me) use to access the list. It’s a “private”
list, however, so it’s not passed around by normal NNTP protocol.

What we’re proposing is to make it a requirement that you’re a member to be
able to access the list at all. The idea is that a spammer would have to
find the list, figure out how to join it, authenticate to join it, and
then… harvest a few thousand addresses? Sounds like a lot of trouble for
“these people”…

Peter
NTDEV List Slave Emeritus

Myself I have no problems with anything that Peter has suggested. In
fact the one thing that I would like to see on the mailing list is
threading. Of all mailing lists that I visit, ntdev is the only
one that doesn’t thread properly. A few emails are threaded but
most aren’t. I’ve always accepted this as because most probably
post via the newsgroup or because all emails are bounced by ntdev.

I’m not complaining, its the only feature that I feel is missing.

Regards,
Brad.
On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 02:25:33PM -0400, Arlie Davis wrote:

Well, I’m mostly to blame for Peter’s sudden interest in spam. I sent
mail to Peter, asking if it were possible to reduce the public
(unauthenticated) exposure of the NTDEV/NTFSD lists. (I’m fairly
certain that my own address was harvested due to posting on NTDEV/NTFSD,
because I’ve been excruciatingly cautious with this address.)

Peter pointed out that the archives do obfuscate addresses (although
some spammers have caught on to this, and convert at back to @, etc.).
I’m happy to see this – I had assumed that the archives on ntdev.org
were current, and did not realize that 1) Peter is not responsible for
them, and 2) that they are not current; they end in December 2002.

My main concern is not the lists being used as a means to deliver spam
(easily prevented), but as a means to harvest email addresses.

I think the web search interface is not too vulnerable – spammers would
have to seed search URLs with random terms into their harvesters.
(Although – who knows? – they might already do this.) I think any
NNTP interface is far more vulnerable, because the spammers would only
need to create a single account, then have their harvester use NNTP,
which provides lots of standardized ways to enumerate messages, headers,
etc.

Personally, I vote:

  • To turn off NNTP access
  • To require that web searches be authenticated

I know this requires monkeying with the web site, which costs time. Yet
more productivity lost to spam. Sigh.

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Thomas F. Divine
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 1:00 PM
To: Windows System Software Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: Possible NTDEV Policy Change? Close list to public?
Discontinue Web Interface for READ?

You said "Our goal for this proposal is to reduce spam to our members.
".

I did not understand which aspect of spam you are addressing.

Certainly do anything that helps.

Thomas

“Peter Viscarola” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> >
> > “Thomas F. Divine” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > >
> > >
> > > The only way I know of to reduce list spam takes manual
> > > intervention.
> One
> > > way is to have a mode where new members postings are initally
> > > moderated.
> > >
> > …
> > > message (This is becomming common).
> > …
> >
> > I am not aware of ANY spam traversing this list or being sent out via
> > our list server. None. Ever. If this is NOT the case, you should let
>
> > me know IMMEDIATELY, supplying the smtp headers. I know that I’ve
> > NEVER seen a
> piece
> > of spam go through our list server, and I don’t see any in the
> > archives.
> >
> > It seems to me that moderating the postings would only stop people
> > from posting spam to the list. Since there IS no spam posted to the
> > list, at least as far as I know, I don’t think this would help.
> >
> > Please note that some spammers use Lyris for ourgoing mailings… You
> should
> > not conclude that because something comes from Lyris that it comes
> > from
> OSR.
> >
> > The problem we’re trying to address with closing access to the lists
> > is people harvesting email addresses from the lists. Note the we
> > don’t think this is a BIG problem (note that, because of they way they
>
> > are organized, NTFSD.org and NTDEV.org are likely a far bigger problem
>
> > than the lists themselves. Note that NTDEV.org and NTFSD.org are not
> > run by OSR –
> though
> > we’ve offered numerous times to take them over (the current owner
> > feels
> that
> > we should pay him for this privilged, which is not bloddy likely)).
> >
> > >
> > > I not get about 300+ SPAM/virus emails a day, with only a small
> > > handful
> of
> > > legitimate mesages. It is truly an overwhelming problem.
> > >
> >
> > Oh, yeah! Of course! We’re finding that over 60% of the email to
> > osr.com is SPAM, much of it of the most vile and disgusting sort.
> >
> > We need to try to do something to make it less easy for these
> > people…
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
> unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@jedacite.dyndns.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

“Brad R” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> Myself I have no problems with anything that Peter has suggested. In
> fact the one thing that I would like to see on the mailing list is
> threading.
> I’m not complaining, its the only feature that I feel is missing.
>

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the input.

Can you tell me more about what you mean by “threading”? When I think
“threading” I think “newsreader”. Are you talking about the outlook feature
“sort by conversation”? Can you do a bit of diagnosis and identify what it
is about the list posting that fail to allow it to “thread” properly??

In looking at the threaded search results, the list seems to thread pretty
well.

We’re always open to making the list “work” better for people,

Peter

Well, I’ll give you an outline of everything

I run mutt on a linux box. My mutt version is 1.0.11 and was built
on 2000-01-18.

I have also subscribed to the linux 1394 mailing list (currently)
which threads correctly and the arm-linux mailing list (previously)
which also threads correctly.

I do not read or post via the newsgroup interface. Because ntdev
does not thread nicely with mutt (and posibly other email clients)
I don’t save the emails locally but use google to search. (I
have all linux 1394 maling list emails go to another mailbox as
it can be sorted by thread and searched easily.).

What listserv are you using for ntdev?

A general question, does ntdev work by just bouncing the emails
to everyone on the list?

I’m not 100% sure on email but I’ll take a look at some of the mutt
source, rfc’s relating to email and header differences between
the other mailing lists and ntdev.

I probably won’t get around to all of this till later in the week
due to other commitments but I’ll let you know as soon as I have
any idea. In the meantime I can send you a few threaded emails
from the other lists if you like.

Regards,
Brad.

On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 06:13:50PM -0400, Peter Viscarola wrote:

“Brad R” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> > Myself I have no problems with anything that Peter has suggested. In
> > fact the one thing that I would like to see on the mailing list is
> > threading.
> > I’m not complaining, its the only feature that I feel is missing.
> >
>
> Hi Brad,
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> Can you tell me more about what you mean by “threading”? When I think
> “threading” I think “newsreader”. Are you talking about the outlook feature
> “sort by conversation”? Can you do a bit of diagnosis and identify what it
> is about the list posting that fail to allow it to “thread” properly??
>
> In looking at the threaded search results, the list seems to thread pretty
> well.
>
> We’re always open to making the list “work” better for people,
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@jedacite.dyndns.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

What I concerned is how to search NTDEV/NTFS archive “AT ANY TIME” if
the
Web interface is turn off. I always search archive via web at
http://www.osronline.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Peter Viscarola
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 9:25 AM
To: Windows System Software Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Possible NTDEV Policy Change? Close list to public?
Discontinue Web Interface for READ?

NTDEV Members:

A) As you probably know, there are three ways to read the NTDEV/NTFSD
lists:

  1. Via email – List listserv
  2. Via newsreader – Like usenet
  3. Via the web interface at www.osronline.com

We propose to DISCONTINUE the web option, as it is seldom used. Let us
know if you care.

We will KEEP the interface that allows you to maintain your list
membership settings via the web. We are NOT proposing to remove this
feature.

B) While only members may post comments to the list, the NTDEV and NTFSD
lists are available to the public via the web interface as well as via
the newsreader interface.

We propose to DISCONTINUE public access to the list via newsreader or
web, and only allow members to read messages posted to the list. Our
goal for this proposal is to reduce spam to our members. Let us know if
you care.

This change is the result of our instituting a very cool and accurate
thread-based search facility from the www.osronline.com home page. We
propose that THIS interface remain public (note that email addresses in
this seach facility are obscured).

Because these lists are run for the benefit of the community, we want to
know your opinions on this topic. Of course, we’re intersted in your
opinions on any other topics regarding the list as well. Please feel
free to send comments OFF LIST to xxxxx@lists.osr.com.

Thanks,

Peter
List Slave Emeritus


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@highstream.net To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

FWIW, I’m currently using the web interface because I’m having trouble
contacting lists.osr.com (can’t even ping it).

This might well be a problem on my end since we’ve been having
firewall/virus problems lately… but it’s nice having the backup…

If anyone sees this via NNTP within the next day or two and can send me an
email to that effect, I’d appreciate it so I can start tracking down where
we’re blacklisted (or whatever :-).