[OT] Disassembler recommendations?

I have a device I have to support that uses drivers that the original
provider will no longer support. The drivers also have a number of bugs
that crash systems now and then. And they don’t support some larger
removable disk sizes I need for my product.

The original suppliers have also apparently lost the source code, and have
no interest in tracking it down to pass on to me so I can support these
things properly.

Which leaves me currently in the position of trying to object patch some
rather awful code containing several dozen instances of duplicated
functions, all of which I have to analyze and fix. The recent discussions
about the evilness of hooking and patching are quite correct; I’ve been
doing it as needed for 40 years, and I HATE IT.

I’d like to NOT need to object patch this mess this time. I’d like to
disassemble these ^&)* drivers and end up with valid, assembable, assembly
code that I can stick back thru ml and end up with working driver code files
with the same bugs as before, and ONLY the same bugs as before. Then, as
much as I hate assembly code (which I’ve also worked with for 40 years), I
can hack the things up and recompile them a whole lot easier than dealing
with object patches!

So: name me a good disassembler that can do this.

I’ve looked at the IDA page, and I can’t for the life of me figure out what
the thing will save if it lets me save anything. The demo version has save
disabled, so I can’t try it and see. I don’t want to pay several hundred
bucks for something that won’t even begin to do what I want, and only
discover that after I’ve paid for it.

There seem to be a couple of other disassemblers out there, but they seem
probably even less capable. I played with one of them, and while its easy
enough to use and makes nice assembler-like listing files, it doesn’t
provide something I can reasonably assemble and get back to what I had.

Opionion or comments?

Loren

IAD: Interactive Disassembler!

http://www.datarescue.com/idabase/

Jamey

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Loren Wilton
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 9:47 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] [OT] Disassembler recommendations?

I have a device I have to support that uses drivers that the original
provider will no longer support. The drivers also have a number of bugs
that crash systems now and then. And they don’t support some larger
removable disk sizes I need for my product.

The original suppliers have also apparently lost the source code, and have
no interest in tracking it down to pass on to me so I can support these
things properly.

Which leaves me currently in the position of trying to object patch some
rather awful code containing several dozen instances of duplicated
functions, all of which I have to analyze and fix. The recent discussions
about the evilness of hooking and patching are quite correct; I’ve been
doing it as needed for 40 years, and I HATE IT.

I’d like to NOT need to object patch this mess this time. I’d like to
disassemble these ^&)* drivers and end up with valid, assembable, assembly
code that I can stick back thru ml and end up with working driver code files
with the same bugs as before, and ONLY the same bugs as before. Then, as
much as I hate assembly code (which I’ve also worked with for 40 years), I
can hack the things up and recompile them a whole lot easier than dealing
with object patches!

So: name me a good disassembler that can do this.

I’ve looked at the IDA page, and I can’t for the life of me figure out what
the thing will save if it lets me save anything. The demo version has save
disabled, so I can’t try it and see. I don’t want to pay several hundred
bucks for something that won’t even begin to do what I want, and only
discover that after I’ve paid for it.

There seem to be a couple of other disassemblers out there, but they seem
probably even less capable. I played with one of them, and while its easy
enough to use and makes nice assembler-like listing files, it doesn’t
provide something I can reasonably assemble and get back to what I had.

Opionion or comments?

Loren


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rocketdivision.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

Loren,

try IDA. Definitely it is the best of the disassemblers around. Certainly it
does not have k-mode disassembler features (it has them in u-mode), but it
gives you a great wealth of information and a mighty tool with IDC (IDA C
Scripting Language).

If you ping me off-list, I can send you an IDC with certain structs defined,
which are relevant in k-mode. However, I can only guarantee for the sripts
working from IDA 4.9.

The demo version may have this limitation, but it’s not as limited as the
freeware version:
http://www.datarescue.be/idafreeware/freeida43.exe

However, this freeware version has a GUI, unlike previous versions which
were CUI while the commercial version was already GUI. So give it a try.
Maybe it even works for your purposes, free of charge then.

Oliver

May the source be with you, stranger :wink:

ICQ: #281645
URL: http://assarbad.net

Oops, forgot to say that the freeware version *is* able to save IDB files.

There are “only” two major limitations in the freeware version:

  1. Only the x86 processor module
  2. Only support for PE-files (and plain binary?!)
  3. The GUI and features are those of 4.3, not 4.9 (the curr. latest)

Okay, I can count, that were three … :wink:

Oliver

May the source be with you, stranger :wink:

ICQ: #281645
URL: http://assarbad.net

IDA will do as you are asking (at least the full version, its all I have now) but it is sometimes flaky. For alternatives, I’ve used XDE (from a shady source: google search for XDE and z0mbie). With some modifications, libdisasm is nice too, though it is written for linux based platforms

From: “Oliver Schneider”
> Date: 2005/12/28 Wed AM 04:58:00 EST
> To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
> Subject: Re: [ntdev] [OT] Disassembler recommendations?
>
> Oops, forgot to say that the freeware version is able to save IDB files.
>
> There are “only” two major limitations in the freeware version:
> 1. Only the x86 processor module
> 2. Only support for PE-files (and plain binary?!)
> 3. The GUI and features are those of 4.3, not 4.9 (the curr. latest)
>
> Okay, I can count, that were three … :wink:
>
> Oliver
>
> –
> ---------------------------------------------------
> May the source be with you, stranger :wink:
>
> ICQ: #281645
> URL: http://assarbad.net
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ainfosec.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

Ditto; IDA is fantastic.

-sd

On Dec 28, 2005, at 1:54 AM, Jamey Kirby wrote:

IAD: Interactive Disassembler!

http://www.datarescue.com/idabase/

Jamey

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Loren Wilton
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 9:47 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] [OT] Disassembler recommendations?

I have a device I have to support that uses drivers that the original
provider will no longer support. The drivers also have a number of
bugs
that crash systems now and then. And they don’t support some larger
removable disk sizes I need for my product.

The original suppliers have also apparently lost the source code,
and have
no interest in tracking it down to pass on to me so I can support
these
things properly.

Which leaves me currently in the position of trying to object patch
some
rather awful code containing several dozen instances of duplicated
functions, all of which I have to analyze and fix. The recent
discussions
about the evilness of hooking and patching are quite correct; I’ve
been
doing it as needed for 40 years, and I HATE IT.

I’d like to NOT need to object patch this mess this time. I’d like to
disassemble these ^&)* drivers and end up with valid, assembable,
assembly
code that I can stick back thru ml and end up with working driver
code files
with the same bugs as before, and ONLY the same bugs as before.
Then, as
much as I hate assembly code (which I’ve also worked with for 40
years), I
can hack the things up and recompile them a whole lot easier than
dealing
with object patches!

So: name me a good disassembler that can do this.

I’ve looked at the IDA page, and I can’t for the life of me figure
out what
the thing will save if it lets me save anything. The demo version
has save
disabled, so I can’t try it and see. I don’t want to pay several
hundred
bucks for something that won’t even begin to do what I want, and only
discover that after I’ve paid for it.

There seem to be a couple of other disassemblers out there, but
they seem
probably even less capable. I played with one of them, and while
its easy
enough to use and makes nice assembler-like listing files, it doesn’t
provide something I can reasonably assemble and get back to what I
had.

Opionion or comments?

Loren


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rocketdivision.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://
www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
xxxxx@positivenetworks.net
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

Silly question but what rights do you have to the intellectual property
you are very possibly about to unlawfully copy and disassemble? You really
need to check the license agreement associated with that software and
determine who owns the IP, else you and your company could be up a very
dirty river without a paddle.

The personal opinion of
Gary G. Little

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Loren Wilton
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 11:47 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] [OT] Disassembler recommendations?

I have a device I have to support that uses drivers that the original
provider will no longer support. The drivers also have a number of bugs
that crash systems now and then. And they don’t support some larger
removable disk sizes I need for my product.

The original suppliers have also apparently lost the source code, and have
no interest in tracking it down to pass on to me so I can support these
things properly.

Which leaves me currently in the position of trying to object patch some
rather awful code containing several dozen instances of duplicated
functions, all of which I have to analyze and fix. The recent discussions
about the evilness of hooking and patching are quite correct; I’ve been
doing it as needed for 40 years, and I HATE IT.

I’d like to NOT need to object patch this mess this time. I’d like to
disassemble these ^&)* drivers and end up with valid, assembable, assembly
code that I can stick back thru ml and end up with working driver code
files
with the same bugs as before, and ONLY the same bugs as before. Then, as
much as I hate assembly code (which I’ve also worked with for 40 years), I
can hack the things up and recompile them a whole lot easier than dealing
with object patches!

So: name me a good disassembler that can do this.

I’ve looked at the IDA page, and I can’t for the life of me figure out
what
the thing will save if it lets me save anything. The demo version has
save
disabled, so I can’t try it and see. I don’t want to pay several hundred
bucks for something that won’t even begin to do what I want, and only
discover that after I’ve paid for it.

There seem to be a couple of other disassemblers out there, but they seem
probably even less capable. I played with one of them, and while its easy
enough to use and makes nice assembler-like listing files, it doesn’t
provide something I can reasonably assemble and get back to what I had.

Opionion or comments?

Loren


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@seagate.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

Gary,

first this depends on the jurisdiction under which Loren works. Furthermore
it depends on what is disassembled. The act of reverse engineering is
usually confused with the combination of both reverse engineering +
re-engineering, the latter being the act of using the results gained from RE
to do … what? There we have the next thing: if you are just about to
provide compatibility (e.g. with a file format) you can do this in the EU
without any problems, if you are going to copy code or (patent protected)
algorithms you may get into trouble.

Quote from Eldad Eilam’s book: “Reversing - Secrets of Reverse Engineering”
(2005) from chapter 1.

**Is Reversing Legal?**
The legal debate around reverse engineering has been going on for years. It
usually revolves around the question of what social and economic impact
reverse engineering has on society as a whole. Of course, calculating this
kind of impact largely depends on what reverse engineering is used for. The
following sections discuss the legal aspects of the various applications of
reverse engineering, with an emphasis on the United States.
It should be noted that it is never going to be possible to accurately
predict beforehand whether a particular reversing scenario is going to be
considered legal or not - that depends on many factors. Always seek legal
counsel before getting yourself into any high-risk reversing project. The
following sections should provide general guidelines on what types of
scenarios should be considered high risk.

*Interoperability*
[…]

*Competition*
When used for interooperability, reverse engineering clearly benefits
society because it simplifies (or enables) the development of new and
improved technologies. When reverse engineering is used in the development
of competing products, the situation is slightly more complicated. Opponents
of reverse engineering usually claim that reversing stifles innovation
because developers of new technologies have little incentive to invest in
research and development if their technologies can be easily “stolen” by
competitors through reverse engineering. […]

*Copyright Law*
[…] As I described earlier, in software there is a very fine line between
directly stealing a competitor’s code and reimplementing it. […]

*Trade secrets*
[…] A trade secret legally protects the developer from cases of
“trade-secret misappropriation” such as having a rogue employee sell the
secret to a competitor. However, a product’s being a trade-secret does not
protect its owner in cases where the competitor reverse engineers the
owner’s product, assuming that the product is available on the open market
and is obtained legitimately. Having a trade secret also offers no
protection in the case of competitors independently inventing the same
technology - that’s exactly what patents are for.

*The Digital Millenium Copyright Act*
[…] Still, what exactly is prohibited under the DCMA?

  • Circumvention of copyright protection systems: […]
  • The development of circumvention technologies: […]

Luckily, the DCMA makes several exceptions in which circumvention is
allowed. Here is a brief examination of each of the exemptions provided in
the DCMA:

  • Interoperability: […]
  • Encryption research: […]
  • Security testing: […]
  • Educational institutions and public libraries: […]
  • Government investigation: […] are not affected by the DCMA.
  • Regulation: […] may be reversed for the purpose of controlling minor’s
    use of the Internet.
  • Protection of privacy: […]

*DCMA Cases*
[…]

*License Agreement Considerations*
In light of the fact that other then the DCMA there are no laws that
directly prohibit or restrict reversing, and that the DCMA only applies to
DRM products or to software that contains DRM technologies, software vendors
add anti-reverse-engineering clauses to shrink-wrap software license
agreements. That’s that very lengthy document you are always told to
“accept” when installing practically any software product in the world. It
should be noted that in most cases just using a program provides the legal
equivalent of signing its license agreement (assuming that the user is given
an opportunity to view it).
The main legal question around reverse-engineering clauses in license
agreements is whether they are enforceable. In the U.S., there doesn’t seem
to be a single, authorative answer to this question - it all depends on the
specific circumstances in which reverse engineering is undertaken. In the
European Union this issue has been clearly defined by the Directive on the
Legal Protection of Computer Programs [EC1]. This directive defines that
decompilation of software programs is permissible in cases of
interoperability. The directive overrides any shrink-wrap license
agreements, at least in this matter.

*Code Samples & Tools*
[…]

*Conclusion*
In this chapter, we introduced the basic ground rules for reversing. We
discussed some of the most popular applications of reverse engineering and
the typical reversing process. We introduced the types of tools that are
commonly used by reversers and evaluated the legal aspects of the process.
Armed with this basic understanding of what it is all about, we head on to
the next chapter, which provide an overview of the technical basics we must
be familiar with before we can actually start reversing.

Well, that are the most important parts. Get the book, it’s worth its price
:wink:

Oliver

May the source be with you, stranger :wink:

ICQ: #281645
URL: http://assarbad.net

Interestingly, none of those cases you mention cover the case at hand here:

  • Bug fixes when the original source has been lost or destroyed

Loren

Loren,

Again, with the caveat that I am not a lawyer, I would suggest
communicating your intentions to the other company - “In light of your
decision not to support this product any longer, we find it necessary to
take any and all steps necessary to disassemble and/or reverse-compile
the binary code in order to allow us to continue to support it.”

Your own legal counsel might be squeamish but this creates a condition
known as “estoppel” because you’re putting them on notice of your
intentions. If they do nothing, they cannot later assert a damage claim
BECAUSE they knew what you were doing.

In addition, any competent lawyer is going to note that there’s not much
of a damage claim to be made in the case of a product they’ve
discontinued - I can’t see how it costs them money or lost revenue
(economic losses) which doesn’t leave them with much of a claim.

Of course, lawyers are very conservative by nature - the point here is
that you have a *business* reason to accept this risk (need to continue
supporting the hardware) and now you need to mitigate that decision
(that’s a better way to cast it with the lawyer as well, because his/her
first assumption is you want to avoid being sued. Having decided you
MUST take this action, you now say “NOT doing this is not a viable
BUSINESS option, so let’s find ways to mitigate any possible claims they
might make…”

I can’t believe their business types won’t negotiate a license agreement

  • that sounds like they are leaving money on the table (I mean, how much
    would YOUR company pay NOT to have to reverse engineer the damned
    thing?) Sometimes it is just like software engineering - you have to
    ask the RIGHT questions and give them the RIGHT constraints.

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

Looking forward to seeing you at the next OSR File Systems class in
Boston, MA April 24-27, 2006.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Loren Wilton
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 9:10 PM
To: ntdev redirect
Subject: Re: [ntdev] [OT] Disassembler recommendations?

Interestingly, none of those cases you mention cover the case at hand
here:

  • Bug fixes when the original source has been lost or destroyed

Loren


Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@osr.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

By the time you will have reverse engineered something, might as
well have written your own code. Also, there’s hardly any “trade
secret” that hasn’t been published in some academic journal
somewhere, and when there’s some of those, there will surely be
some competing techniques available within the writings of the
academic community; and believe me, their half-life is jolly
short. Oh, they don’t want me to be privy to their little
gimmicks ? Fine, no problem, I can write my own.

If more people did that, this copyright/patent/reversing issue
would be moot. I believe I can safely bet that the great
majority of stuff protected by patents or copyrights today
wouldn’t pass muster if submitted to a computer sciency academic
peer review process!

Alberto.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Oliver Schneider”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”

Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: [ntdev] [OT] Disassembler recommendations?

> Gary,
>
> first this depends on the jurisdiction under which Loren
> works. Furthermore
> it depends on what is disassembled. The act of reverse
> engineering is
> usually confused with the combination of both reverse
> engineering +
> re-engineering, the latter being the act of using the results
> gained from RE
> to do … what? There we have the next thing: if you are just
> about to
> provide compatibility (e.g. with a file format) you can do
> this in the EU
> without any problems, if you are going to copy code or (patent
> protected)
> algorithms you may get into trouble.
>
> Quote from Eldad Eilam’s book: “Reversing - Secrets of Reverse
> Engineering”
> (2005) from chapter 1.
> ----------------------------------------
> Is Reversing Legal?
> The legal debate around reverse engineering has been going on
> for years. It
> usually revolves around the question of what social and
> economic impact
> reverse engineering has on society as a whole. Of course,
> calculating this
> kind of impact largely depends on what reverse engineering is
> used for. The
> following sections discuss the legal aspects of the various
> applications of
> reverse engineering, with an emphasis on the United States.
> It should be noted that it is never going to be possible to
> accurately
> predict beforehand whether a particular reversing scenario is
> going to be
> considered legal or not - that depends on many factors. Always
> seek legal
> counsel before getting yourself into any high-risk reversing
> project. The
> following sections should provide general guidelines on what
> types of
> scenarios should be considered high risk.
>
> Interoperability
> […]
>
> Competition
> When used for interooperability, reverse engineering clearly
> benefits
> society because it simplifies (or enables) the development of
> new and
> improved technologies. When reverse engineering is used in the
> development
> of competing products, the situation is slightly more
> complicated. Opponents
> of reverse engineering usually claim that reversing stifles
> innovation
> because developers of new technologies have little incentive
> to invest in
> research and development if their technologies can be easily
> “stolen” by
> competitors through reverse engineering. […]
>
> Copyright Law
> […] As I described earlier, in software there is a very fine
> line between
> directly stealing a competitor’s code and reimplementing it.
> […]
>
> Trade secrets
> […] A trade secret legally protects the developer from cases
> of
> “trade-secret misappropriation” such as having a rogue
> employee sell the
> secret to a competitor. However, a product’s being a
> trade-secret does not
> protect its owner in cases where the competitor reverse
> engineers the
> owner’s product, assuming that the product is available on the
> open market
> and is obtained legitimately. Having a trade secret also
> offers no
> protection in the case of competitors independently inventing
> the same
> technology - that’s exactly what patents are for.
>
> The Digital Millenium Copyright Act
> […] Still, what exactly is prohibited under the DCMA?
> + Circumvention of copyright protection systems: […]
> + The development of circumvention technologies: […]
>
> Luckily, the DCMA makes several exceptions in which
> circumvention is
> allowed. Here is a brief examination of each of the exemptions
> provided in
> the DCMA:
> + Interoperability: […]
> + Encryption research: […]
> + Security testing: […]
> + Educational institutions and public libraries: […]
> + Government investigation: […] are not affected by the
> DCMA.
> + Regulation: […] may be reversed for the purpose of
> controlling minor’s
> use of the Internet.
> + Protection of privacy: […]
>
> DCMA Cases
> […]
>
> License Agreement Considerations
> In light of the fact that other then the DCMA there are no
> laws that
> directly prohibit or restrict reversing, and that the DCMA
> only applies to
> DRM products or to software that contains DRM technologies,
> software vendors
> add anti-reverse-engineering clauses to shrink-wrap software
> license
> agreements. That’s that very lengthy document you are always
> told to
> “accept” when installing practically any software product in
> the world. It
> should be noted that in most cases just using a program
> provides the legal
> equivalent of signing its license agreement (assuming that the
> user is given
> an opportunity to view it).
> The main legal question around reverse-engineering clauses in
> license
> agreements is whether they are enforceable. In the U.S., there
> doesn’t seem
> to be a single, authorative answer to this question - it all
> depends on the
> specific circumstances in which reverse engineering is
> undertaken. In the
> European Union this issue has been clearly defined by the
> Directive on the
> Legal Protection of Computer Programs [EC1]. This directive
> defines that
> decompilation of software programs is permissible in cases of
> interoperability. The directive overrides any shrink-wrap
> license
> agreements, at least in this matter.
>
> Code Samples & Tools
> […]
>
> Conclusion
> In this chapter, we introduced the basic ground rules for
> reversing. We
> discussed some of the most popular applications of reverse
> engineering and
> the typical reversing process. We introduced the types of
> tools that are
> commonly used by reversers and evaluated the legal aspects of
> the process.
> Armed with this basic understanding of what it is all about,
> we head on to
> the next chapter, which provide an overview of the technical
> basics we must
> be familiar with before we can actually start reversing.
> ----------------------------------------
>
> Well, that are the most important parts. Get the book, it’s
> worth its price
> :wink:
>
> Oliver
>
> –
> ---------------------------------------------------
> May the source be with you, stranger :wink:
>
> ICQ: #281645
> URL: http://assarbad.net
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ieee.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com

> By the time you will have reverse engineered something, might as

well have written your own code.
It depends. If the hardware to which you want to interface is very rare and
has not been documented (some medical equipment, for example), you will have
to reverse engineer it, unless you get them to license it to you.
So in the case, if the time required to get a license from unwilling people
tends to infinity, you will be better off reversing it and extracting the
required information that way.

If more people did that, this copyright/patent/reversing issue
would be moot. I believe I can safely bet that the great
majority of stuff protected by patents or copyrights today
wouldn’t pass muster if submitted to a computer sciency academic
peer review process!
That’s why we Europeans don’t like (pure) software patents :o) … it only
benefits those really big companies that already have a truck-load of patent
applications around the corner of the EU patent office.

Cheers,

Oliver

May the source be with you, stranger :wink:

ICQ: #281645
URL: http://assarbad.net

“Oliver Schneider” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> That’s why we Europeans don’t like (pure) software patents :o) … it only
> benefits those really big companies that already have a truck-load of
> patent
> applications around the corner of the EU patent office.
>
I’m sure that OSR who has applied for a software patent appreciates the
“really big company” moniker, I know I and my partner do as we apply for our
third patent (now if we only had some big firm money).

The contention that software patents are all covered by academic research is
bullshit. If so then obviously all Computer Science PHD programs should
shut down, since there is nothing new to invent or research for a students
doctorate!

I remember explaining my first software patent to a couple university
professors, one got excited thinking is was great. The other said it was
obvious and there should be no patent. So I started asking him where it was
obvious or prior art. Well the prior art was pretty far afield of the way
the patent did it, so we moved on to the obvious comment, at which point he
explained that no he had never heard of this but “once you have explained
how to do it, it is obvious!”. If patents needed to clear this bar, there
would be few useful inventions.


Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Remove StopSpam from the email to reply

You know, I don’t know much patented real stuff - as opposed to
obvious stuff - that hasn’t been covered by some paper in some
journal, and I am of the opinion that a pretty large amount of
patents out there fall in the category I would call “obvious”,
and hence they shouldn’t have been granted to begin with. But
that’s just an opinion. As I see it, nothing should be
patentable unless it passed a strict peer review of forefront
researchers: if a top quality academic journal wouldn’t publish
it, it shouldn’t deserve to be patented!

And then, again, the half-life of patented stuff is jolly short.
Much of the value of a patent, as I see it, is a brownie point
jotted down against the psychological value of a company; they
may be pretty nice for bean counters, but those of us on the
front line of research and development shouldn’t need to sweat
because of patents. Just do it differently, or go find that
paper in that journal, which preempts the patent to begin with,
and use it. And you know what ? Chances are that by the time you
get your development done, the patent is obsolete anyway.

Meanwhile, I believe it’s our common interest to patent the
least possible, and to make as much code as we possibly can
publicly available for the benefit of the whole kernel dev
community.

Alberto.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Don Burn”
Newsgroups: ntdev
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”

Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 11:53 AM
Subject: Re:[ntdev] [OT] Disassembler recommendations?

>
> “Oliver Schneider” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>> That’s why we Europeans don’t like (pure) software patents
>> :o) … it only
>> benefits those really big companies that already have a
>> truck-load of patent
>> applications around the corner of the EU patent office.
>>
> I’m sure that OSR who has applied for a software patent
> appreciates the “really big company” moniker, I know I and my
> partner do as we apply for our third patent (now if we only
> had some big firm money).
>
> The contention that software patents are all covered by
> academic research is bullshit. If so then obviously all
> Computer Science PHD programs should shut down, since there is
> nothing new to invent or research for a students doctorate!
>
> I remember explaining my first software patent to a couple
> university professors, one got excited thinking is was great.
> The other said it was obvious and there should be no patent.
> So I started asking him where it was obvious or prior art.
> Well the prior art was pretty far afield of the way the patent
> did it, so we moved on to the obvious comment, at which point
> he explained that no he had never heard of this but “once you
> have explained how to do it, it is obvious!”. If patents
> needed to clear this bar, there would be few useful
> inventions.
>
>
> –
> Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
> Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
> Remove StopSpam from the email to reply
>
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ieee.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com

> I’m sure that OSR who has applied for a software patent appreciates the

“really big company” moniker, I know I and my partner do as we apply for
our
third patent (now if we only had some big firm money).
Sorry if you don’t like my opinion, it’s just that, an opinion :wink:
You have your patents and you can keep them :wink: … there are just some
things that make me nervous about software patents. Often they are not used
to protect inventions, but to block competing ones - look at the claims in
many patents.

Many small companies would go bankrupt once patents are allowed for
everything implemented in software, here in the EU. That is not only due to
the fact that they have to have their own patent portfolio (which they
simply don’t have, while the big ones wait around the corner), this is also
because they have to get a lawyer specialized in these matters to search for
patents with which there products and/or their own patents may collide.

Furthermore it is strange that while in “the real world” an invention may
have a quite long half-life period which justifies 18 or 20 years for each
patent, a software patent should not have such a long validity period. If we
see the development in the IT industry it is ridiculous why a software
patent should last the same time as it does in “the real world”, if things
have turned 360° at least every 2 years - i.e. there was a kind of a
revolution every two years in software industry.

So, yes if we can’t get around it by all means, I’d well agree with a
*software* patent validity of 1 year extended up to 3 years on-demand which
gives the respective vendor already a head start but does not prevent new
inventions in similar directions (patent fees *have* to reflect that shorter
period, of course).

But actually, what’s the problem here? We live without software patents in
the EU, and we live well. How comes that actually only the big US companies
are lobbying for software patents in the EU while everyone else here is
afraid?! Is there some monetary argument, perhaps?

Cheers,

Oliver

May the source be with you, stranger :wink:

ICQ: #281645
URL: http://assarbad.net

Software patents seem somewhat specious to me, but then again I don’t have
any :slight_smile: My take is that the patent lawyers don’t have the tools to handle
software patents very well.

At my last company I saw a guy get a patent for technology that was a.)
blatently obvious, b.) already being used (the EXACT technology) in shipping
products for over 8 years, and finally c.) covered in almost identical
language in a pre-existing patent. I would say that that patent is about as
useful as a roll of Charmin, and I would not hesitate to use the technology
from that patent in a product for one second.

Also, it seems the precedent in software has gone against patents for the
most part.

All of that said:

Meanwhile, I believe it’s our common interest to patent the least possible,
and to make as much code as we possibly can publicly available for the
benefit of the whole kernel dev community.

I could not disagree with you more. Giving out free software (primarily
with source), aside from simple starter examples and/or brief technology
demonstrations, is about as intelligent a move for a developer as building
you a free house. I like you Alberto, but personally, I will pass.

Bill M.

“Alberto Moreira” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> You know, I don’t know much patented real stuff - as opposed to obvious
> stuff - that hasn’t been covered by some paper in some journal, and I am
> of the opinion that a pretty large amount of patents out there fall in the
> category I would call “obvious”, and hence they shouldn’t have been
> granted to begin with. But that’s just an opinion. As I see it, nothing
> should be patentable unless it passed a strict peer review of forefront
> researchers: if a top quality academic journal wouldn’t publish it, it
> shouldn’t deserve to be patented!
>
> And then, again, the half-life of patented stuff is jolly short. Much of
> the value of a patent, as I see it, is a brownie point jotted down against
> the psychological value of a company; they may be pretty nice for bean
> counters, but those of us on the front line of research and development
> shouldn’t need to sweat because of patents. Just do it differently, or go
> find that paper in that journal, which preempts the patent to begin with,
> and use it. And you know what ? Chances are that by the time you get your
> development done, the patent is obsolete anyway.
>
> Meanwhile, I believe it’s our common interest to patent the least
> possible, and to make as much code as we possibly can publicly available
> for the benefit of the whole kernel dev community.
>
>
> Alberto.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: “Don Burn”
> Newsgroups: ntdev
> To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 11:53 AM
> Subject: Re:[ntdev] [OT] Disassembler recommendations?
>
>
>>
>> “Oliver Schneider” wrote in message
>> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>>> That’s why we Europeans don’t like (pure) software patents :o) … it
>>> only
>>> benefits those really big companies that already have a truck-load of
>>> patent
>>> applications around the corner of the EU patent office.
>>>
>> I’m sure that OSR who has applied for a software patent appreciates the
>> “really big company” moniker, I know I and my partner do as we apply for
>> our third patent (now if we only had some big firm money).
>>
>> The contention that software patents are all covered by academic research
>> is bullshit. If so then obviously all Computer Science PHD programs
>> should shut down, since there is nothing new to invent or research for a
>> students doctorate!
>>
>> I remember explaining my first software patent to a couple university
>> professors, one got excited thinking is was great. The other said it was
>> obvious and there should be no patent. So I started asking him where it
>> was obvious or prior art. Well the prior art was pretty far afield of the
>> way the patent did it, so we moved on to the obvious comment, at which
>> point he explained that no he had never heard of this but “once you have
>> explained how to do it, it is obvious!”. If patents needed to clear this
>> bar, there would be few useful inventions.
>>
>>
>> –
>> Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
>> Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
>> Remove StopSpam from the email to reply
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> —
>> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>>
>> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ieee.org
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>
>

Bill McKenzie wrote:

Software patents seem somewhat specious to me, but then again I don’t have
any :slight_smile: My take is that the patent lawyers don’t have the tools to handle
software patents very well.

Actually, the lawyers seem to be the ONLY ones who have the tools to
handle them. They and their clients are getting rich. It is the US
Patent Office and the non-lawyered developer who are having problems.

It would be interesting to try to come up with some kind of “talent
pool” consortium of folks willing to offer expert advice and prior art
searches on behalf of the USPTO. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to think
of how such a thing could be formed without automatically having extreme
prejudice against the applicants.

On the other hand, “extreme prejudice” might be exactly the appropriate
criteria…


Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

“Tim Roberts” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Actually, the lawyers seem to be the ONLY ones who have the tools to
> handle them. They and their clients are getting rich. It is the US
> Patent Office and the non-lawyered developer who are having problems.
>
Sorry, the last patent I and my partner filed we did not use a lawyer, of
course my partner (a hardware designer) has over 50 patents to his credit so
he has been there before.

Software patents should be like any other patent, for instance the software
patents we filed are approaches to doing things that without the cost of
specialized hardware (we also patented the hardware). Does turning an idea
in to code, make it unprotectable? If so maybe we should tell the chip
manufacturers who these days design chips with programming langauges that
you can’t patent a Pentium or an Opteron.

I will admit some software patents have been abused, this happens in all
types of patents (my father was a patent lawyer), and I will be the first to
admit that the patent office could do better. But, making broad statements
about patents or the lawyers is not helping.


Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Remove StopSpam from the email to reply

Hey, Bill,

The whole of Linux has been built on the idea of free software,
and it has benefited a lot of people. Also, patents rarely
benefit the creator except very indirectly as a brownie point in
one’s resume’. If patents were untransferable and belonged to
the creator and not to the corporation, it would be a fair
concept; as it is, it’s an aberration. I also like you, Bill,
but personally, I will pass. :slight_smile:

Alberto.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Bill McKenzie”
Newsgroups: ntdev
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”

Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 8:02 PM
Subject: Re:[ntdev] Re:[OT] Disassembler recommendations?

> Software patents seem somewhat specious to me, but then again
> I don’t have any :slight_smile: My take is that the patent lawyers don’t
> have the tools to handle software patents very well.
>
> At my last company I saw a guy get a patent for technology
> that was a.) blatently obvious, b.) already being used (the
> EXACT technology) in shipping products for over 8 years, and
> finally c.) covered in almost identical language in a
> pre-existing patent. I would say that that patent is about as
> useful as a roll of Charmin, and I would not hesitate to use
> the technology from that patent in a product for one second.
>
> Also, it seems the precedent in software has gone against
> patents for the most part.
>
> All of that said:
>
>>Meanwhile, I believe it’s our common interest to patent the
>>least possible, and to make as much code as we possibly can
>>publicly available for the benefit of the whole kernel dev
>>community.
>
> I could not disagree with you more. Giving out free software
> (primarily with source), aside from simple starter examples
> and/or brief technology demonstrations, is about as
> intelligent a move for a developer as building you a free
> house. I like you Alberto, but personally, I will pass.
>
> Bill M.
>
> “Alberto Moreira” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>> You know, I don’t know much patented real stuff - as opposed
>> to obvious stuff - that hasn’t been covered by some paper in
>> some journal, and I am of the opinion that a pretty large
>> amount of patents out there fall in the category I would call
>> “obvious”, and hence they shouldn’t have been granted to
>> begin with. But that’s just an opinion. As I see it, nothing
>> should be patentable unless it passed a strict peer review of
>> forefront researchers: if a top quality academic journal
>> wouldn’t publish it, it shouldn’t deserve to be patented!
>>
>> And then, again, the half-life of patented stuff is jolly
>> short. Much of the value of a patent, as I see it, is a
>> brownie point jotted down against the psychological value of
>> a company; they may be pretty nice for bean counters, but
>> those of us on the front line of research and development
>> shouldn’t need to sweat because of patents. Just do it
>> differently, or go find that paper in that journal, which
>> preempts the patent to begin with, and use it. And you know
>> what ? Chances are that by the time you get your development
>> done, the patent is obsolete anyway.
>>
>> Meanwhile, I believe it’s our common interest to patent the
>> least possible, and to make as much code as we possibly can
>> publicly available for the benefit of the whole kernel dev
>> community.
>>
>>
>> Alberto.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: “Don Burn”
>> Newsgroups: ntdev
>> To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
>>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 11:53 AM
>> Subject: Re:[ntdev] [OT] Disassembler recommendations?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> “Oliver Schneider” wrote in message
>>> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>>>> That’s why we Europeans don’t like (pure) software patents
>>>> :o) … it only
>>>> benefits those really big companies that already have a
>>>> truck-load of patent
>>>> applications around the corner of the EU patent office.
>>>>
>>> I’m sure that OSR who has applied for a software patent
>>> appreciates the “really big company” moniker, I know I and
>>> my partner do as we apply for our third patent (now if we
>>> only had some big firm money).
>>>
>>> The contention that software patents are all covered by
>>> academic research is bullshit. If so then obviously all
>>> Computer Science PHD programs should shut down, since there
>>> is nothing new to invent or research for a students
>>> doctorate!
>>>
>>> I remember explaining my first software patent to a couple
>>> university professors, one got excited thinking is was
>>> great. The other said it was obvious and there should be no
>>> patent. So I started asking him where it was obvious or
>>> prior art. Well the prior art was pretty far afield of the
>>> way the patent did it, so we moved on to the obvious
>>> comment, at which point he explained that no he had never
>>> heard of this but “once you have explained how to do it, it
>>> is obvious!”. If patents needed to clear this bar, there
>>> would be few useful inventions.
>>>
>>>
>>> –
>>> Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
>>> Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
>>> Remove StopSpam from the email to reply
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> —
>>> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>>> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>>>
>>> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ieee.org
>>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>>> xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ieee.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com

>The whole of Linux has been built on the idea of free software, and it has

benefited a lot of people.

I will pass on this war :slight_smile:

Bill M.

“Alberto Moreira” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Hey, Bill,
>
> The whole of Linux has been built on the idea of free software, and it has
> benefited a lot of people. Also, patents rarely benefit the creator except
> very indirectly as a brownie point in one’s resume’. If patents were
> untransferable and belonged to the creator and not to the corporation, it
> would be a fair concept; as it is, it’s an aberration. I also like you,
> Bill, but personally, I will pass. :slight_smile:
>
> Alberto.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: “Bill McKenzie”
> Newsgroups: ntdev
> To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 8:02 PM
> Subject: Re:[ntdev] Re:[OT] Disassembler recommendations?
>
>
>> Software patents seem somewhat specious to me, but then again I don’t
>> have any :slight_smile: My take is that the patent lawyers don’t have the tools to
>> handle software patents very well.
>>
>> At my last company I saw a guy get a patent for technology that was a.)
>> blatently obvious, b.) already being used (the EXACT technology) in
>> shipping products for over 8 years, and finally c.) covered in almost
>> identical language in a pre-existing patent. I would say that that
>> patent is about as useful as a roll of Charmin, and I would not hesitate
>> to use the technology from that patent in a product for one second.
>>
>> Also, it seems the precedent in software has gone against patents for the
>> most part.
>>
>> All of that said:
>>
>>>Meanwhile, I believe it’s our common interest to patent the least
>>>possible, and to make as much code as we possibly can publicly available
>>>for the benefit of the whole kernel dev community.
>>
>> I could not disagree with you more. Giving out free software (primarily
>> with source), aside from simple starter examples and/or brief technology
>> demonstrations, is about as intelligent a move for a developer as
>> building you a free house. I like you Alberto, but personally, I will
>> pass.
>>
>> Bill M.
>>
>> “Alberto Moreira” wrote in message
>> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>>> You know, I don’t know much patented real stuff - as opposed to obvious
>>> stuff - that hasn’t been covered by some paper in some journal, and I am
>>> of the opinion that a pretty large amount of patents out there fall in
>>> the category I would call “obvious”, and hence they shouldn’t have been
>>> granted to begin with. But that’s just an opinion. As I see it, nothing
>>> should be patentable unless it passed a strict peer review of forefront
>>> researchers: if a top quality academic journal wouldn’t publish it, it
>>> shouldn’t deserve to be patented!
>>>
>>> And then, again, the half-life of patented stuff is jolly short. Much of
>>> the value of a patent, as I see it, is a brownie point jotted down
>>> against the psychological value of a company; they may be pretty nice
>>> for bean counters, but those of us on the front line of research and
>>> development shouldn’t need to sweat because of patents. Just do it
>>> differently, or go find that paper in that journal, which preempts the
>>> patent to begin with, and use it. And you know what ? Chances are that
>>> by the time you get your development done, the patent is obsolete
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, I believe it’s our common interest to patent the least
>>> possible, and to make as much code as we possibly can publicly available
>>> for the benefit of the whole kernel dev community.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alberto.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: “Don Burn”
>>> Newsgroups: ntdev
>>> To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 11:53 AM
>>> Subject: Re:[ntdev] [OT] Disassembler recommendations?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> “Oliver Schneider” wrote in message
>>>> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>>>>> That’s why we Europeans don’t like (pure) software patents :o) … it
>>>>> only
>>>>> benefits those really big companies that already have a truck-load of
>>>>> patent
>>>>> applications around the corner of the EU patent office.
>>>>>
>>>> I’m sure that OSR who has applied for a software patent appreciates the
>>>> “really big company” moniker, I know I and my partner do as we apply
>>>> for our third patent (now if we only had some big firm money).
>>>>
>>>> The contention that software patents are all covered by academic
>>>> research is bullshit. If so then obviously all Computer Science PHD
>>>> programs should shut down, since there is nothing new to invent or
>>>> research for a students doctorate!
>>>>
>>>> I remember explaining my first software patent to a couple university
>>>> professors, one got excited thinking is was great. The other said it
>>>> was obvious and there should be no patent. So I started asking him
>>>> where it was obvious or prior art. Well the prior art was pretty far
>>>> afield of the way the patent did it, so we moved on to the obvious
>>>> comment, at which point he explained that no he had never heard of this
>>>> but “once you have explained how to do it, it is obvious!”. If patents
>>>> needed to clear this bar, there would be few useful inventions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> –
>>>> Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
>>>> Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting
>>>> Remove StopSpam from the email to reply
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> —
>>>> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>>>> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>>>>
>>>> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ieee.org
>>>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> —
>> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>> http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>>
>> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ieee.org
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>
>