[OSR-DETECTED-SPAM] Re[2]: windbg only in WDK?!!?

For quite long time, I don’t install Windbg at all. I don’t have to.
All I need is just to copy the entire directory to Program Files
and it works.

If the “good” news will come true, I will install the entire WDK
into VMWARE and then just copy the Windbg part out of it.

L.

> Starting with the current version (6.12.1.591), Debugging Tools for

Windows is available only as part of the Windows Driver Kit (WDK).

Yet another bad idea by MS.

Given the fact that some (most) people do still support w2k, they cannot use Win7 WDK at all.


Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

>simply be eliminated and save someone’s P&L quite a lot of expense

In this case, reducing the efforts work a lot.

Removing the usual WinDbg download in favour of WDK one is the effort.


Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

* Tony Mason wrote, On 21/01/10 03:08:

Sadly, I suspect that sending business reasons will fall upon deaf ears. This seems to be another example in which the community’s needs are determined without consulting with the community - much like any large, bureaucratic organization does on the behalf of its constituency.

In all fairness, Microsoft builds the WDK and the kernel debugger as a gift to our community - they really do not gain anything from it (it’s not as if we pay for it.) Arguing that it is inconvenient to US has little merit - it is not going to make any difference for the business case for Microsoft (or more likely for the group that pays to produce the current debugger package.) In some ways, I’m surprised someone there hasn’t realized that this is little more than a cost with no corresponding income stream that could simply be eliminated and save someone’s P&L quite a lot of expense that generates no corresponding income.

Now maybe if we paid for these tools we’d have the right to expect our feedback to count for something, but as beggars at the table, we really need to keep in mind that we should be grateful for the crumbs that fall.

I understand what Tony says, but I have a different perspective entirely.

Although I started developing for DOS and Windows (real mode device
drivers & DPMI) I have a long intervening history of open source
development on Unix and Linux, and did not expect ever to come back to
be a windows developer.

I left off windows “forever” while working on Smartphones when MS
refused to provide the API to show the contact picker on Smartphone 2002
to their preferred partner, who were involved in the launch of their
Smartphone OS. (The MS techies involved were top notch, but it was a
“business” decision).

So I consider that supporting the OSR team to support developers (to
help avoid BSOD in the wild and reduce rabid claims of windows
instability), and providing the WDK and debugging tools to be the bare
minimum for a company that isn’t generally providing the source.

I see issues are raised on this mailing list that represent internal
inconsistencies and carbuncles that in Linux would have been resolved
long ago with some ghastly flame war on the kernel mailing list.

The support from OSR, from the WDK and the debuggers is very nearly as
worthwhile as the source that we don’t have, and that is high praise for
everyone involved in providing these.

Such co-operation from Microsoft and OSR has raised Microsoft in my
eyes. Betrayal in this matter will merely move towards zero the number
of ways in which I can be convinced to believe in Microsoft again.

But like Tony, I expect the worst.

Sam

Does anybody use WinDbg 6.12?
Is there any new bugs compare to 6.11?
Is there something new and exciting? :slight_smile:

thanks!

>If the “good” news will come true, I will install the entire WDK

into VMWARE and then just copy the Windbg part out of it.

I will do the same, after trying to cut the single .msi file from the WDK distro.


Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

Hi, Tony Mason

In all fairness, Microsoft builds the WDK and the kernel debugger as a gift to
our community - they really do not gain anything from it …

It’s very strange to hear this from you. Windows without SDK & DDK is useless. No 3rd party software & hardware - no money from OS. So, MS have to provide clear documentation (imho supporting MSDN is more expensive than producing WDK), free compiler, free effective tools etc. They put in those costs in the cost of Windows. So WDK & debugging tools are not a gifts.

BTW, what is the latest version of Debugging tools are available now? In WDK 7600.16385.0 I see
dbg_x86.msi with size of 17?816?576 bytes. Online version of tools (6.11.1.404): dbg_x86_6.11.1.404.msi is 17 815 040 bytes. Both have 6.11.1.404 version.

How to get that “the current version (6.12.1.591)”?

thanks.

“Maxim S. Shatskih” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntfsd…
>> Starting with the current version (6.12.1.591), Debugging Tools for
>> Windows is available only as part of the Windows Driver Kit (WDK).

> Yet another bad idea by MS.

> Given the fact that some (most) people do still support w2k, they cannot
> use Win7
> WDK at all.

We have many customers still on Windows 2000 Server.

>> Given the fact that some (most) people do still support w2k, they cannot

> use Win7
> WDK at all.

We have many customers still on Windows 2000 Server.

2000 Server is scheduled for execution (i.e. end of life) in July, so I
suspect that this won’t be a compelling argument for much longer.

-scott


Scott Noone
Consulting Associate
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osronline.com

“Neil Weicher” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntfsd…
> “Maxim S. Shatskih” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntfsd…
>>> Starting with the current version (6.12.1.591), Debugging Tools for
>>> Windows is available only as part of the Windows Driver Kit (WDK).
>
>> Yet another bad idea by MS.
>
>> Given the fact that some (most) people do still support w2k, they cannot
>> use Win7
>> WDK at all.
>
> We have many customers still on Windows 2000 Server.
>
>
>

> > We have many customers still on Windows 2000 Server.

2000 Server is scheduled for execution (i.e. end of life) in
July, so I suspect that this won’t be a compelling argument
for much longer.

If it’s paid for and it works, why replace it? If it’s not in an
environment where you need security updates, I can’t see a reason to
dump it just because it’s old. Provided you can keep the hardware
going, of course.

I happen to agree that putting the debugging tools only in the WDK is a
silly idea. Wanting to be able to install stuff in the smallest useful
unit is a good thing. Being able to cleanly and easily replace one
component is a pretty basic tenet of good engineering. Also, not having
to download the entire WDK to get a new version of the debugger would be
nice.

Can I also ask how the release cycles for the debugger and WDK currently
line up? It looks like the debugger has been getting roughly twice
yearly updates. It doesn’t seem like updates to the WDK get released
nearly as often. Which will be changed if they are released together?

Eric

“Scott Noone” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntfsd…
>>> Given the fact that some (most) people do still support w2k, they cannot
>>> use Win7
>>> WDK at all.
>>
>> We have many customers still on Windows 2000 Server.
>
> 2000 Server is scheduled for execution (i.e. end of life) in July, so I
> suspect that this won’t be a compelling argument for much longer.

Tell that to the customers still on Windows 98 :slight_smile:

Our friends at VMWare have ensured it will be with us for a long while.
NT4 was never that popular in its day (relative to unix, netware servers
etc.), but I still have customers running it today. W2K seemed to be a
remarkable market success relative to NT4, so EOL or not, I suspect the
general industry will have a hard time letting it actually die.

Mind you I’m not concerned about bundling windbg in the WDK because of w2k
support, I just don’t want to have to physically carry a copy around with
me in order to avoid a 1gb download every time I need to casually install
it to check ‘one thing’, and then somehow clean up a WDK install when I’m
finished.

t.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, Scott Noone wrote:

>> Given the fact that some (most) people do still support w2k, they cannot
>> use Win7
>> WDK at all.
>
> We have many customers still on Windows 2000 Server.

2000 Server is scheduled for execution (i.e. end of life) in July, so I
suspect that this won’t be a compelling argument for much longer.

-scott


Scott Noone
Consulting Associate
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osronline.com

“Neil Weicher” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntfsd…
>> “Maxim S. Shatskih” wrote in message
>> news:xxxxx@ntfsd…
>>>> Starting with the current version (6.12.1.591), Debugging Tools for
>>>> Windows is available only as part of the Windows Driver Kit (WDK).
>>
>>> Yet another bad idea by MS.
>>
>>> Given the fact that some (most) people do still support w2k, they cannot
>>> use Win7
>>> WDK at all.
>>
>> We have many customers still on Windows 2000 Server.
>>
>>
>>
>
> —
> NTFSD is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of debugging and file system seminars
> (including our new fs mini-filter seminar) visit: http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

> Tell that to the customers still on Windows 98 :slight_smile:

Tell that to the business manager who is aware of the market share of such customers? 0.1%?


Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

> etc.), but I still have customers running it today. W2K seemed to be a

remarkable market success relative to NT4, so EOL or not, I suspect the
general industry will have a hard time letting it actually die.

Can you estimate the number of people deploying new w2k installations now?


Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

> If it’s paid for and it works, why replace it?

From my perspective I agree. But, then again, I don’t sell operating systems
:slight_smile:

Can I also ask how the release cycles for the debugger and WDK currently
line up?

WinDBG updates appear to be irregular. A new WDK is shipped with each new
O/S release, so that’s either going to be a good thing or a bad thing for
the debugger. At least we can get some guarantee as to when to expect an
update, but I’m not sure what that’s going to be mean for bug fixes along
the way.

-scott


Scott Noone
Consulting Associate
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osronline.com

“Eric Diven” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntfsd…
>> > We have many customers still on Windows 2000 Server.
>>
>> 2000 Server is scheduled for execution (i.e. end of life) in
>> July, so I suspect that this won’t be a compelling argument
>> for much longer.
>
> If it’s paid for and it works, why replace it? If it’s not in an
> environment where you need security updates, I can’t see a reason to
> dump it just because it’s old. Provided you can keep the hardware
> going, of course.
>
> I happen to agree that putting the debugging tools only in the WDK is a
> silly idea. Wanting to be able to install stuff in the smallest useful
> unit is a good thing. Being able to cleanly and easily replace one
> component is a pretty basic tenet of good engineering. Also, not having
> to download the entire WDK to get a new version of the debugger would be
> nice.
>
> Can I also ask how the release cycles for the debugger and WDK currently
> line up? It looks like the debugger has been getting roughly twice
> yearly updates. It doesn’t seem like updates to the WDK get released
> nearly as often. Which will be changed if they are released together?
>
> Eric
>

“Maxim S. Shatskih” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntfsd…
>> Tell that to the customers still on Windows 98 :slight_smile:

> Tell that to the business manager who is aware of the market share of such
> customers? 0.1%?

Legacy customers.

They need to consider the downsides too. The harder they make it for us to debug application issues on servers that are running their operating systems then the less likely we are to continue using their server operating systems.

This would be a great business if it were not for the customers.

Tony
OSR

Looks like WinDbg 6.12 exists after all, look here

http://blogs.technet.com/mrsnrub/archive/2009/12/22/kernel-mode-dump-analysis.aspx

The log says
“Microsoft (R) Windows Debugger Version 6.12.0001.591 AMD64”

but the guy works at MS support…

Once windbg is installed, you can “copy /s” it to a different computer and it will work.

(Of course, getting a new version will be a PITA and take all afternoon watching WDK progress bars.)


Jon


From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Tracy Camp [xxxxx@openmars.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 16:07
To: Windows File Systems Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntfsd] windbg only in WDK?!!?

I saw this little new item today in the hardware newsletter - did I miss
this somewhere else or is this really the first mention?

Anyways, anybody from msft listening - please no! I download
windbg routinely on client machines I need to debug. I really don’t want
to have to install or extract windbg from the wdk to do this. Having it
part of the WDK is fine, but we really really need a standalone install
too.

t.

“Debugging Tools for Windows Available Only in WDK and Windows SDK

Starting with the current version (6.12.1.591), Debugging Tools for
Windows is available only as part of the Windows Driver Kit (WDK). This
version will also be made available in an upcoming release of the Windows
Software Development Kit (SDK).

To download the WDK and install Debugging Tools for Windows:

1. Download and install the WDK
(http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/DevTools/WDK/WDKpkg.mspx).

2. Find the debugging tools link on the screen that appears and click to
install the debuggers to a location of your choice.

3. After the installation is complete, you can find the debugger shortcuts
by clicking Start, pointing to All Programs, and then pointing to
Debugging Tools for Windows.

Note: Windows Symbols Packages are not available in the WDK and are still
available on WHDC
(http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/symbolpkg.mspx).”


NTFSD is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of debugging and file system seminars
(including our new fs mini-filter seminar) visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer