Hello everyone. Please tell me how to create a new protected mode subsystem
for WinNT/2000/XP? (Protected mode subsystem is Win32, OS/2 POSIX e.t.c)
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wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> Hello everyone. Please tell me how to create a new protected mode
subsystem
> for WinNT/2000/XP? (Protected mode subsystem is Win32, OS/2 POSIX e.t.c)
>
For all intents and purposes, this really isn’t possible. It’s certainly
not possible without the NT source code and enormous amounts of effort.
Further, it’s probably not even that useful at this point in history.
What are you trying to accomplish that you think you’d benefit from a new
Subsystem?
Peter
OSR
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Why do you need this?
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 6:15 AM
Subject: [ntdev] New subsystem creation
> Hello everyone. Please tell me how to create a new protected mode subsystem
> for WinNT/2000/XP? (Protected mode subsystem is Win32, OS/2 POSIX e.t.c)
>
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I would use it, for example, to write a decent XTerm under Win2000, for
example, or a real world XWindows server. Not that I dislike Win32, but X
runs circles around anything else I know.
By the way, Dmitry, have you looked at VRTX, or VMWare, or some other third
party OS extension ?
Alberto.
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Viscarola [mailto:xxxxx@osr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 1:57 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> Hello everyone. Please tell me how to create a new protected mode
subsystem
> for WinNT/2000/XP? (Protected mode subsystem is Win32, OS/2 POSIX e.t.c)
>
For all intents and purposes, this really isn’t possible. It’s certainly
not possible without the NT source code and enormous amounts of effort.
Further, it’s probably not even that useful at this point in history.
What are you trying to accomplish that you think you’d benefit from a new
Subsystem?
Peter
OSR
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“Moreira, Alberto” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> I would use it, for example, to write a decent XTerm under Win2000, for
> example, or a real world XWindows server. Not that I dislike Win32, but X
> runs circles around anything else I know.
>
That’d be a waste of your time, 'berto. What is it that you think you’d do
in such a subsystem that you couldn’t do in an application?
The only time you need to create a sub-system is when you want to provide a
seemingly native set of APIs, AND have finely grained control over the
creation of the processes you support. Think about what’s necessary to
support “fork”, as opposed to Nt’s CreateProcess(…) semantics.
At this point, subsystems are just a legacy of NT’s initial design that have
mostly outlived their usefulness. Witness all the changes to the Win32
Subsystem to make it “less like a subsystem and more tightly integrated into
NT”.
Really, all you get at this point by attempting to create a sub-system
instead of some cool client-server based app is the “pleasure” of having to
support a set of interfaces long ago disused and mostly forgotten. Consider
just the problem of how you would LINK a program to a new subsystem.
Solvable, of course, but annoying.
Peter
OSR
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On 10/30/01, ““Moreira, Alberto” ” wrote:
> I would use it, for example, to write a decent XTerm under Win2000, for
> example, or a real world XWindows server. Not that I dislike Win32, but X
> runs circles around anything else I know.
Alberto…
Have you considered Hummingbird eXceed?
http://www.hummingbird.com/products/nc/exceed/index.html
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Hi alberto,
If you are like me then you probably just wanted to “know” how a
subsystem on NT is implemented from scratch.
A lot of guys here (who replied to alberto’s query) are correct
in pointing out that there is nothing effective one can get out of this
huge effort. But that is not the point here. If we actually get to the point
of getting a new subsystem up, chances are that it will be similar to one
of the existing ones.
May I request those who say that a new subsystem is doable,
to please step forward and revive this email thread in the right direction ?
Regards
Taher
Veritas Software.
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Peter Viscarola
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 2:40 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
“Moreira, Alberto” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> I would use it, for example, to write a decent XTerm under Win2000, for
> example, or a real world XWindows server. Not that I dislike Win32, but X
> runs circles around anything else I know.
>
That’d be a waste of your time, 'berto. What is it that you think you’d do
in such a subsystem that you couldn’t do in an application?
The only time you need to create a sub-system is when you want to provide a
seemingly native set of APIs, AND have finely grained control over the
creation of the processes you support. Think about what’s necessary to
support “fork”, as opposed to Nt’s CreateProcess(…) semantics.
At this point, subsystems are just a legacy of NT’s initial design that have
mostly outlived their usefulness. Witness all the changes to the Win32
Subsystem to make it “less like a subsystem and more tightly integrated into
NT”.
Really, all you get at this point by attempting to create a sub-system
instead of some cool client-server based app is the “pleasure” of having to
support a set of interfaces long ago disused and mostly forgotten. Consider
just the problem of how you would LINK a program to a new subsystem.
Solvable, of course, but annoying.
Peter
OSR
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I might want, for example, do the kinds of things that people do on xterms ?
Or run X applications ?
The only reason why subsystems are “obsolete” is because people say they
are. The original concept of having intermediate layers that can implement
different APIs is a great idea, but of course the Amoeba philosophy of OS
design may have doomed it to oblivion.
Fine grained control over process creation is ever so easy, just write a
driver that takes over the timer interrupts. Then write your own dispatcher.
If you really want, Windows, or any OS for that matter, will only see the
light of day when you decide to let them.
Alberto.
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Viscarola [mailto:xxxxx@osr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:10 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
“Moreira, Alberto” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> I would use it, for example, to write a decent XTerm under Win2000, for
> example, or a real world XWindows server. Not that I dislike Win32, but X
> runs circles around anything else I know.
>
That’d be a waste of your time, 'berto. What is it that you think you’d do
in such a subsystem that you couldn’t do in an application?
The only time you need to create a sub-system is when you want to provide a
seemingly native set of APIs, AND have finely grained control over the
creation of the processes you support. Think about what’s necessary to
support “fork”, as opposed to Nt’s CreateProcess(…) semantics.
At this point, subsystems are just a legacy of NT’s initial design that have
mostly outlived their usefulness. Witness all the changes to the Win32
Subsystem to make it “less like a subsystem and more tightly integrated into
NT”.
Really, all you get at this point by attempting to create a sub-system
instead of some cool client-server based app is the “pleasure” of having to
support a set of interfaces long ago disused and mostly forgotten. Consider
just the problem of how you would LINK a program to a new subsystem.
Solvable, of course, but annoying.
Peter
OSR
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> creation of the processes you support. Think about what’s necessary to
support “fork”, as opposed to Nt’s CreateProcess(…) semantics.
There is a open-source CygWin library - UNIX over Win32.
They support fork() by copying the whole address space. Extremely slow.
Why the do not support NT kernel’s fork feature - just call NtCreateProcess with SectionHandle == NULL - I do not know.
Max
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Thanks for the plug ! I just talked to them, I may be able to use Exceed at
college.
Alberto.
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@troikanetworks.com
[mailto:xxxxx@troikanetworks.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 1:14 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
On 10/30/01, ““Moreira, Alberto” ” wrote:
> I would use it, for example, to write a decent XTerm under Win2000, for
> example, or a real world XWindows server. Not that I dislike Win32, but X
> runs circles around anything else I know.
Alberto…
Have you considered Hummingbird eXceed?
http://www.hummingbird.com/products/nc/exceed/index.html
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Oh well, just read the cygwin archives. They are well aware of the fork
problem, but they intend to run on all win32 platforms with one binary. So
the hideous windos9x/me doesn’t have the same features as NT, so there they
are copying the whole address space. They have debated this endlessly.
-----Original Message-----
From: Maxim S. Shatskih [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:07 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
creation of the processes you support. Think about what’s necessary
to support “fork”, as opposed to Nt’s CreateProcess(…) semantics.
There is a open-source CygWin library - UNIX over Win32.
They support fork() by copying the whole address space. Extremely slow.
Why the do not support NT kernel’s fork feature - just call NtCreateProcess
with SectionHandle == NULL - I do not know.
Max
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I think they want it to be x-platform. Win9x has no NtXxx…
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Maxim S. Shatskih wrote:
> creation of the processes you support. Think about what’s necessary to
> support “fork”, as opposed to Nt’s CreateProcess(…) semantics.There is a open-source CygWin library - UNIX over Win32.
They support fork() by copying the whole address space. Extremely slow.
Why the do not support NT kernel’s fork feature - just call NtCreateProcess with SectionHandle == NULL - I do not know.Max
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–
Peter xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
http://www.inkvine.fluff.org/~peter/
logic kicks ass:
(1) Horses have an even number of legs.
(2) They have two legs in back and fore legs in front.
(3) This makes a total of six legs, which certainly is an odd number of
legs for a horse.
(4) But the only number that is both odd and even is infinity.
(5) Therefore, horses must have an infinite number of legs.
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----- Original Message -----
From: “Moreira, Alberto”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:20 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
> The only reason why subsystems are “obsolete” is because people say they
> are. The original concept of having intermediate layers that can implement
> different APIs is a great idea, but of course the Amoeba philosophy of OS
> design may have doomed it to oblivion.
Well, I am not sure that it is necessarily such a great idea. The problem is
that as far as I know applications can’t use two subsystems simultaneously.
So, if you want to have an useful subsystem it must essentially duplicate
(in one form or another) all functionality already present in Win32. This
would be a tremendous amount of work and for what ?
Isn’t it possible instead of writing a subsystem per se, to just write a DLL
linking to NTDLL.DLL and using the native NT API directly. This should give
you most of the benefits of a new subsystem and at the same time allow you
to use the existing (rather rich and mature) one.
> Fine grained control over process creation is ever so easy, just write a
> driver that takes over the timer interrupts. Then write your own
dispatcher.
> If you really want, Windows, or any OS for that matter, will only see the
> light of day when you decide to let them.
This seems a bit unrealistic. If you circumvent the OS’es timer dispatching
you are breaking all drivers that use timers, worker threads, etc, thus
rendering the entire OS useless - probably no network, no disk (not to
mention no Internet Explorer :-). At that point you are probably better off
writing your own OS…
> Alberto.
-tzvetan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Viscarola [mailto:xxxxx@osr.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:10 PM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
>
>
> “Moreira, Alberto” wrote in message
> news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> >
> > I would use it, for example, to write a decent XTerm under Win2000, for
> > example, or a real world XWindows server. Not that I dislike Win32, but
X
> > runs circles around anything else I know.
> >
>
> That’d be a waste of your time, 'berto. What is it that you think you’d
do
> in such a subsystem that you couldn’t do in an application?
>
> The only time you need to create a sub-system is when you want to provide
a
> seemingly native set of APIs, AND have finely grained control over the
> creation of the processes you support. Think about what’s necessary to
> support “fork”, as opposed to Nt’s CreateProcess(…) semantics.
>
> At this point, subsystems are just a legacy of NT’s initial design that
have
> mostly outlived their usefulness. Witness all the changes to the Win32
> Subsystem to make it “less like a subsystem and more tightly integrated
into
> NT”.
>
> Really, all you get at this point by attempting to create a sub-system
> instead of some cool client-server based app is the “pleasure” of having
to
> support a set of interfaces long ago disused and mostly forgotten.
Consider
> just the problem of how you would LINK a program to a new subsystem.
> Solvable, of course, but annoying.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
>
>
> —
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Is CygWin under GPL?
----- Original Message -----
From: “Roddy, Mark”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:52 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
> Oh well, just read the cygwin archives. They are well aware of the fork
> problem, but they intend to run on all win32 platforms with one binary. So
> the hideous windos9x/me doesn’t have the same features as NT, so there they
> are copying the whole address space. They have debated this endlessly.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maxim S. Shatskih [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:07 AM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
>
>
> > creation of the processes you support. Think about what’s necessary
> > to support “fork”, as opposed to Nt’s CreateProcess(…) semantics.
>
>
> There is a open-source CygWin library - UNIX over Win32.
>
> They support fork() by copying the whole address space. Extremely slow.
> Why the do not support NT kernel’s fork feature - just call NtCreateProcess
> with SectionHandle == NULL - I do not know.
>
> Max
>
>
> —
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Then why not have and #ifdef for NT to not be atrocious on this platform?
Or - why not implement fork() on Win9x using VMM’s Pagexxx services?
Max
----- Original Message -----
From: “PeterB”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:27 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
> I think they want it to be x-platform. Win9x has no NtXxx…
>
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Maxim S. Shatskih wrote:
>
> > > creation of the processes you support. Think about what’s necessary to
> > > support “fork”, as opposed to Nt’s CreateProcess(…) semantics.
> >
> >
> > There is a open-source CygWin library - UNIX over Win32.
> >
> > They support fork() by copying the whole address space. Extremely slow.
> > Why the do not support NT kernel’s fork feature - just call NtCreateProcess with SectionHandle == NULL - I do not know.
> >
> > Max
> >
> >
> > —
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntdev-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
> >
>
> –
> Peter xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
> http://www.inkvine.fluff.org/~peter/
>
> logic kicks ass:
> (1) Horses have an even number of legs.
> (2) They have two legs in back and fore legs in front.
> (3) This makes a total of six legs, which certainly is an odd number of
> legs for a horse.
> (4) But the only number that is both odd and even is infinity.
> (5) Therefore, horses must have an infinite number of legs.
>
>
> —
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> ----------
From: xxxxx@storagecraft.com[SMTP:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Reply To: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:56 AM
To: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creationThen why not have and #ifdef for NT to not be atrocious on this platform?
Or - why not implement fork() on Win9x using VMM’s Pagexxx services?
Hmm, 10 minutes before this one I received your reply to another mail which
explained it (one binary for all win32 platforms)… Too fast fingers?
Best regards,
Michal Vodicka
STMicroelectronics Design and Application s.r.o.
[michal.vodicka@st.com, http:://www.st.com]
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Yes of course.
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim
S. Shatskih
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:55 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creationIs CygWin under GPL?
----- Original Message -----
From: “Roddy, Mark”
> To: “NT Developers Interest List”
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:52 PM
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
>
>
> > Oh well, just read the cygwin archives. They are well aware of the
> > fork problem, but they intend to run on all win32 platforms
> with one
> > binary. So the hideous windos9x/me doesn’t have the same
> features as
> > NT, so there they are copying the whole address space. They have
> > debated this endlessly.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Maxim S. Shatskih [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:07 AM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
> >
> >
> > > creation of the processes you support. Think about
> what’s necessary
> > > to support “fork”, as opposed to Nt’s CreateProcess(…)
> semantics.
> >
> >
> > There is a open-source CygWin library - UNIX over Win32.
> >
> > They support fork() by copying the whole address space. Extremely
> > slow. Why the do not support NT kernel’s fork feature - just call
> > NtCreateProcess with SectionHandle == NULL - I do not know.
> >
> > Max
> >
> >
> > —
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@stratus.com To
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> >
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> >
>
>
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>
>
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Then why some guy will not add the NT native fork() there and distribute the patched kit by himself?
Cygnus will not be able to legally hinder him provided he uses the GPL license too.
Max
----- Original Message -----
From: “Mark Roddy”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:38 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
> Yes of course.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim
> > S. Shatskih
> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:55 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
> >
> >
> > Is CygWin under GPL?
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I think people have. I think the debate within the cygwin developers, and
believe me I didn’t do anything other than read a few messages, was resolved
as basically that one binary was far more important to them than fast forks.
I could be wrong but at least at some point in time cygwin could be built
using NT semantics for improved fork performance. So to answer your question
(assertion?) some guys have, and its open source, and it supports NT
semantics if you want to build it yourself, so go ahead. Me I just get more
memory and faster processor(s) and forget about the fork performance.
-----Original Message-----
From: Maxim S. Shatskih [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:13 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
Then why some guy will not add the NT native fork() there and distribute the
patched kit by himself? Cygnus will not be able to legally hinder him
provided he uses the GPL license too.
Max
----- Original Message -----
From: “Mark Roddy”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:38 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
> Yes of course.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim
> > S. Shatskih
> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:55 PM
> > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
> >
> >
> > Is CygWin under GPL?
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Am I missing something obvious here? Why can’t the same binary detect the OS
at runtume and use the apropriate semantics???
-tzvetan
----- Original Message -----
From: “Roddy, Mark”
To: “NT Developers Interest List”
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 5:30 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
> I think people have. I think the debate within the cygwin developers, and
> believe me I didn’t do anything other than read a few messages, was
resolved
> as basically that one binary was far more important to them than fast
forks.
>
> I could be wrong but at least at some point in time cygwin could be built
> using NT semantics for improved fork performance. So to answer your
question
> (assertion?) some guys have, and its open source, and it supports NT
> semantics if you want to build it yourself, so go ahead. Me I just get
more
> memory and faster processor(s) and forget about the fork performance.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maxim S. Shatskih [mailto:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:13 AM
> To: NT Developers Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
>
>
> Then why some guy will not add the NT native fork() there and distribute
the
> patched kit by himself? Cygnus will not be able to legally hinder him
> provided he uses the GPL license too.
>
> Max
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: “Mark Roddy”
> To: “NT Developers Interest List”
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:38 PM
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
>
>
> > Yes of course.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim
> > > S. Shatskih
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:55 PM
> > > To: NT Developers Interest List
> > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: New subsystem creation
> > >
> > >
> > > Is CygWin under GPL?
>
>
>
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