It’s clear to me that VS2013 for driver development has been getting mixed
results from this community.
Perhaps a new OSR list should be devoted to this specific topic - Similar to
the WINDBG list.
FWIW,
Thomas F. Divine
+1 I think that would be great and would probably facilitate more questions since some folks may be hesitant to ask on ntdev … I for one would like to discussions on SDV (and undocumented failures) as well as the issues around remote/local debugging from within VS2013.
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Thomas F. Divine
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 7:42 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] New OSR List for VS2013 Driver Development?
It’s clear to me that VS2013 for driver development has been getting mixed results from this community.
Perhaps a new OSR list should be devoted to this specific topic - Similar to the WINDBG list.
FWIW,
Thomas F. Divine
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
I respectfully disagree and don’t think a new list should be created. We needn’t look any further than the failed NTTALK experiment (how many times has anton asked, “let’s take this to NTTALK”, and then no one does?) to see that there just isn’t enough traffic (about any topic) to justify more than one list.
TD (one of my very favorite people, incidentally), I have to disagree with
you here.
The windbg list can be pretty sparsely populated at times, so I think we’ll
end up with a fair amount of cross posting.
Also, while I have not really started using it yet, eventually, vs + wdk is
what we’re all going to be using, and most questions come/will come from
beginners, who will likely post to ntdev anyway.
Mm
*Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID*
“Speer, Kenny” wrote:
+1 I think that would be great and would probably facilitate more
questions since some folks may be hesitant to ask on ntdev ? I for one
would like to discussions on SDV (and undocumented failures) as well as the
issues around remote/local debugging from within VS2013.
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:
xxxxx@lists.osr.com] *On Behalf Of *Thomas F. Divine
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 7:42 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] New OSR List for VS2013 Driver Development?
It?s clear to me that VS2013 for driver development has been getting mixed
results from this community.
Perhaps a new OSR list should be devoted to this specific topic ? Similar
to the WINDBG list.
FWIW,
Thomas F. Divine
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
You are probably right. I don’t know how to deal with it.
There are two separate issues:
Driver-specific issues (What we’re used to dealing with.)
Building drivers with VS (The new world).
For example: Even in simple case a WDK 7 driver sources project may
“convert” to VS 2013 project OK and even build. BUT it may not be a “useful”
or fully-featured project. For example, you might right-click on a function
name and select “Go to definition” - but you go to the declaration instead.
Similarly, click on project name and click references - and you find NONE.
Just screwy.
Not a driver issue. Perhaps SAL, perhaps unknown VS issue???
Oh well. Just continue the fight.
Thomas
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of MARTIN OBRIEN
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 11:29 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] New OSR List for VS2013 Driver Development?
TD (one of my very favorite people, incidentally), I have to disagree with
you here.
The windbg list can be pretty sparsely populated at times, so I think we’ll
end up with a fair amount of cross posting.
Also, while I have not really started using it yet, eventually, vs + wdk is
what we’re all going to be using, and most questions come/will come from
beginners, who will likely post to ntdev anyway.
Mm
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
“Speer, Kenny” >
wrote:
+1 I think that would be great and would probably facilitate more questions
since some folks may be hesitant to ask on ntdev . I for one would like to
discussions on SDV (and undocumented failures) as well as the issues around
remote/local debugging from within VS2013.
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
mailto:xxxxx
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com
mailto:xxxxx] On Behalf Of Thomas F. Divine
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 7:42 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] New OSR List for VS2013 Driver Development?
It’s clear to me that VS2013 for driver development has been getting mixed
results from this community.
Perhaps a new OSR list should be devoted to this specific topic - Similar to
the WINDBG list.
FWIW,
Thomas F. Divine
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer</mailto:xxxxx></mailto:xxxxx>
Please don’t sit on issues you see with the integration. If the wdk team doesn’t know about them, it is hard to fix them
d
Bent from my phone
From: Thomas F. Divinemailto:xxxxx
Sent: ?12/?13/?2013 8:37 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest Listmailto:xxxxx
Subject: RE: [ntdev] New OSR List for VS2013 Driver Development?
You are probably right. I don?t know how to deal with it.
There are two separate issues:
Driver-specific issues (What we?re used to dealing with?)
Building drivers with VS (The new world).
For example: Even in simple case a WDK 7 driver sources project may ?convert? to VS 2013 project OK and even build. BUT it may not be a ?useful? or fully-featured project. For example, you might right-click on a function name and select ?Go to definition? ? but you go to the declaration instead. Similarly, click on project name and click references ? and you find NONE.
Just screwy.
Not a driver issue. Perhaps SAL, perhaps unknown VS issue???
Oh well. Just continue the fight.
Thomas
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of MARTIN OBRIEN
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 11:29 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] New OSR List for VS2013 Driver Development?
TD (one of my very favorite people, incidentally), I have to disagree with you here.
The windbg list can be pretty sparsely populated at times, so I think we’ll end up with a fair amount of cross posting.
Also, while I have not really started using it yet, eventually, vs + wdk is what we’re all going to be using, and most questions come/will come from beginners, who will likely post to ntdev anyway.
Mm
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
“Speer, Kenny” > wrote:
+1 I think that would be great and would probably facilitate more questions since some folks may be hesitant to ask on ntdev ? I for one would like to discussions on SDV (and undocumented failures) as well as the issues around remote/local debugging from within VS2013.
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.commailto:xxxxx [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.commailto:xxxxx] On Behalf Of Thomas F. Divine
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 7:42 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] New OSR List for VS2013 Driver Development?
It?s clear to me that VS2013 for driver development has been getting mixed results from this community.
Perhaps a new OSR list should be devoted to this specific topic ? Similar to the WINDBG list.
FWIW,
Thomas F. Divine
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer</mailto:xxxxx></mailto:xxxxx></mailto:xxxxx></mailto:xxxxx>
And I was going to ask today…“Could we have a list for user-mode…NTAPP ?”
Questions about using VS to build drivers, issues with SDV, questions about code analysis in drivers are MORE than just welcome here… They’re actively encouraged.
NTDEV is dedicated to community support for Windows system software development, regardless of the specific method you use to build that software.
Of course, if you want to use gcc to build drivers for Windows, don’t expect a lot of help from this list. But that’s because of the level of sanity of the exercise and the experience of the membership… Not due the list’s random insistence on one build environment or another.
In terms of other dedicated lists, while there are times I’d like to auto-route comments on a specific topic (or by specific members, ahem) to another list, I think that’s probably not the best idea in the long run.
As far as a list for app development, specifically: That need is already met more tha sufficiently elsewhere, sometimes even by people who know what they’re talking about. So, the answer to that now is “no”.
Peter
OSR
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On 12/14/13 20:32, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
Of course, if you want to use gcc to build drivers for Windows,
don’t expect a lot of help from this list. But that’s because of
the level of sanity of the exercise and the experience of the
membership… Not due the list’s random insistence on one build
environment or another.
It is insane to answer gcc questions in WinDD context.
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Hash: SHA1On 12/14/13 20:32, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
> Of course, if you want to use gcc to build drivers for Windows,
> don’t expect a lot of help from this list. But that’s because of
> the level of sanity of the exercise and the experience of the
> membership… Not due the list’s random insistence on one build
> environment or another.It is insane to answer gcc questions in WinDD context.
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NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev
OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers
For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminarsTo unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 12/14/13 22:02, xxxxx@flounder.com wrote:
http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=the.guard%40mail.ru&fingerprint=on
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On 13-Dec-2013 18:20, xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
I respectfully disagree and don’t think a new list should be created. We needn’t look any further than the failed NTTALK experiment (how many times has anton asked, “let’s take this to NTTALK”, and then no one does?) to see that there just isn’t enough traffic (about any topic) to justify more than one list.
Then maybe hashtags, like anywhere else? #NTTALK #VS2013
– pa
>how many times has anton asked, “let’s take this to NTTALK”, and then no one does?)
Well, the scenario that you have mentioned above normally occurs when I get into an OT discussion on NTDEV with Max and/or Joe. Max, in his own words, is a “serious developer who has no time for NTTALK”, so that he prefers to pollute NTDEV with discussions that, objectively, don’t belong here. To make things even more interesting, he tends to post literally dozens of OT messages. On one particular occasion he even asked Peter to lock the OT thread…and did so before making a dozen of posts on it (http://www.osronline.com/showThread.cfm?link=192235). Joe, for this or that reason, is simply unable to subscribe to NTTALK. Therefore, they keep on posting OT stuff on NTDEV, effectively eliminating any incentive for the other participants to move to NTTALK…
Anton Bassov
>Therefore, they keep on posting OT stuff on NTDEV, effectively
eliminating any incentive for the other participants to move to NTTALK…
Yes, that’s exactly how it goes. But despite that, isn’t it great that when
in the end the thread is finally locked, there’s still a place where we can
go to continue discussing something interesting that was OT to the original
discussion ?
We needn’t look any further than the failed NTTALK experiment … to see
that there just isn’t enough traffic …to justify more than one list.
NTTALK is doing a great job by just being there. I wouldn’t call it either
failed or an experiment, nor would I measure its success by the amount of
traffic it generates.
//Daniel
Now that I know that NTAPP may not happen, perhaps never, it is still sensible to hang around as this is the only place where “Windows and its development” can be truly learned.
Thanks,
Arvind
> It is insane to answer gcc questions in WinDD context.
Some people even use Delphi for WinDD.
Bad idea. Studying C is easier then combatting all Delphi’s deficiences for such a non-Delphi target, and also Delphi has pathetic code optimization.
–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Microsoft MVP on File System And Storage
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
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On 12/16/13 01:00, Maxim S. Shatskih wrote:
> It is insane to answer gcc questions in WinDD context.
Some people even use Delphi for WinDD.
Bad idea. Studying C is easier then combatting all Delphi’s
deficiences for such a non-Delphi target, and also Delphi has
pathetic code optimization.
Well if you mentioned it …
Can anyone explain how to write makefiles (GNU make) and compile
drivers?
ld options are of special interest.
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the wrote:
On 12/14/13 20:32, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
> Of course, if you want to use gcc to build drivers for Windows,
> don’t expect a lot of help from this list. But that’s because of
> the level of sanity of the exercise and the experience of the
> membership… Not due the list’s random insistence on one build
> environment or another.It is insane to answer gcc questions in WinDD context.
Not so. At least one individual successfully developed a kernel driver
using Delphi (Borland’s wonderful GUI version of Pascal). He had used
an automated tool to convert the header files to Pascal. That’s a much
more significant leap than using gcc.
I would not have done it, and the resulting driver wouldn’t be
supported, but it’s not insane.
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
On 16-Dec-2013 08:47, the wrote:
Can anyone explain how to write makefiles (GNU make) and compile
drivers?
For Linux - gladly. For Windows… you see, this is exactly what
“unsupported” means: one can ask for help with an unsupported thing, but
won’t necessarily get help.
–pa
Not to sound like a dinosaur, but I’m still using command lines to build
both my drivers and to sign them. I’m now moving onto VS2013 as my build
environment. Would there perhaps be a webinar or YouTube on the start to
finish of building a device driver with VS2013 (build -> debug -> Verisign
-> test/QA -> WHQL)? Just the build to release process done entirely with
VS2013. I know parts of VS2013 process but would like to know how to do it
from start to finish.
Thanks,
Motz
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Pavel A.
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 2:06 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] New OSR List for VS2013 Driver Development?
On 16-Dec-2013 08:47, the wrote:
Can anyone explain how to write makefiles (GNU make) and compile
drivers?
For Linux - gladly. For Windows… you see, this is exactly what
“unsupported” means: one can ask for help with an unsupported thing, but
won’t necessarily get help.
–pa
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
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