New Extended Discussion and Debate List???

Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing list specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows system software issues.

As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to serve the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at OSR. We propose to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description of ?Extended discussion and debate on Windows system software.?

We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety of reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries or consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching or offering.

We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a small number of community members moderators of the forum (in addition to OSR staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to lock or delete threads that violate the rules.

What do you think about the idea of a new forum?

What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name, rules, and moderation?

Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to please all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this week.

Peter
OSR

+1

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:07 PM, wrote:

> Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing list
> specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows system software
> issues.
>
> As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to serve
> the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at OSR. We propose
> to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description of ?Extended
> discussion and debate on Windows system software.?
>
> We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no
> politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety of
> reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries or
> consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching or
> offering.
>
> We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a small
> number of community members moderators of the forum (in addition to OSR
> staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to lock or delete threads
> that violate the rules.
>
> What do you think about the idea of a new forum?
>
> What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name, rules,
> and moderation?
>
> Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to please
> all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this week.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>


When I was born I was so surprised I didn’t talk for a year and a half.

+1 on the discussion list and the guidelines seem reasonable. Though
can we also add that topics comparing Windows vs Linux should be for
technical comparison only and not for religious arguments ?

Also, the guidelines for ntdev may need updating regarding when a
thread needs to be moved to the new list. Will list slaves dive in
at the appropriate time ?

Mark.

At 15:37 30/03/2009, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:

Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing
list specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows
system software issues.

As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to
serve the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at
OSR. We propose to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short
description of ?Extended discussion and debate on Windows system software.?

We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no
politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety
of reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries
or consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching
or offering.

We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a
small number of community members moderators of the forum (in
addition to OSR staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to
lock or delete threads that violate the rules.

What do you think about the idea of a new forum?

What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name,
rules, and moderation?

Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to
please all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this week.

Peter
OSR

xxxxx@osr.com wrote:

Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing list specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows system software issues.

As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to serve the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at OSR. We propose to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description of ?Extended discussion and debate on Windows system software.?

We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety of reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries or consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching or offering.

We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a small number of community members moderators of the forum (in addition to OSR staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to lock or delete threads that violate the rules.

What do you think about the idea of a new forum?

What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name, rules, and moderation?

Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to please all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this week.

Sounds great … will you post this to NTFsd as well since there are
lurkers there that don’t cross developmental lines.

Pete

Peter
OSR


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer


Kernel Drivers
Windows File System and Device Driver Consulting
www.KernelDrivers.com
866.263.9295

Joi Ho, Peter.

I think this is an absolutely good idea. I know it’s a heck a lot work on
your side, but it would be an immense help to the community.

As for the name or anything else, I’ve some suggestions -

  1. Windows system software might be bit restricted, though it is my main
    braid earner!. People would love to discuss about Linux or Mac X, and
    personally I think it is good see different views once in a while… At
    least some of us would learn what the other systems are upto!!.

  2. We should also allow all kinds of software programming, be it
    applications, be it DSPs, be scientific programming, be it security related
    stuff, be it debugging, be it about mpatrol or valgrind or patchguard or
    purify or be it simple shit i write that no one next in line want to learn
    or debug!

And I for one, would try my best to kill the “Peter pan syndrome” in me :-).

Even if it has to be just Windows systems software, that is fine by me, but
would be great if we lift the restrictions - Windows, and systems.

-pro

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 7:37 AM, wrote:

> Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing list
> specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows system software
> issues.
>
> As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to serve
> the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at OSR. We propose
> to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description of ?Extended
> discussion and debate on Windows system software.?
>
> We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no
> politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety of
> reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries or
> consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching or
> offering.
>
> We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a small
> number of community members moderators of the forum (in addition to OSR
> staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to lock or delete threads
> that violate the rules.
>
> What do you think about the idea of a new forum?
>
> What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name, rules,
> and moderation?
>
> Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to please
> all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this week.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

Done.

Excellent point. We’ll do that.

Mr. Sinha suggested opening the discussion to (a) any OS, (b) non systems-level programming. What do people think about this, especially point B? I’d be concerned that the list would degenerate into a random pile of unanswered posts with “Why do I get an error in C#.NET, when I call WebServer.Connect(…)??” or whatever.

LOVE the feedback so far. I’d really like to hear from as many community members as possible on this, both pro and con…

Peter

I would vote to call it “OSR’s Shit List”. I would also hope that it’s
archives
were not publicly searchable (login search only).

The reason I hope for the second part is because I often use Google’s
advanced search on osronline.com to locate information - thus if this new
list is picked up by Google I’ll in turn get a lot of crap about linux vs
windows back…

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:38 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???

Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing list
specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows system software
issues.

As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to serve
the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at OSR. We propose
to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description of ?Extended
discussion and debate on Windows system software.?

We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no
politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety of
reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries or
consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching or
offering.

We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a small
number of community members moderators of the forum (in addition to OSR
staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to lock or delete threads
that violate the rules.

What do you think about the idea of a new forum?

What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name, rules,
and moderation?

Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to please
all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this week.

Peter
OSR


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

The new list would obviously be more open to discussing non-standard
techniques not recommended for use in “professional” drivers. Extending this
a little:

Would the new list be an OSR-sanctioned malware author list?

I generally like the idea of discussing a wider variety of driver-related
issues. They might not be of any practical or immediate use, but they might
be just the right “food-for-thought” that leads to a solution in unexpected
situations.

Thomas

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-359855-
xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:38 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???

Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing list
specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows system
software issues.

As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to
serve the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at OSR.
We propose to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description of
?Extended discussion and debate on Windows system software.?

We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no
politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety of
reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries or
consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching or
offering.

We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a
small number of community members moderators of the forum (in addition
to OSR staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to lock or
delete threads that violate the rules.

What do you think about the idea of a new forum?

What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name,
rules, and moderation?

Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to
please all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this
week.

Peter
OSR

Name it Pandora’s Box.

Regarding the ‘other O/S’ topics. I think it very healthy to compare and
contrast OS/X, Linux, CE, PalmOS, etc. with NT especially from the point of
view of how to deliver solutions on multiple OS targets with engineering
efficiency. As was noted before, “my O/S is great and yours sucks because
…” is just not that useful and should be discouraged. However,
suggestions, ideas, and hard-won experience on how to live in a multi-OS
world would be welcome.

I just hope that the discourse can maintain a thoughtful and professional
(analytical) tone.

Thanks for volunteering to burden OSR and the list slaves with even more
service to the community!

-Dave

As you already know, I think it’s a great idea Especially because many of
us are alone in the company or at least alone
in writing drivers, a less restrictive forum could compensate the absence of
interesting fellow colleagues.

This forum may well become an important factor in paving the pathway of
software evolution and at the same time refuce the noise on the ntdev/ntfsd
lists.

There are some small risks involved but I expect this to turn out just
right. That’s because the great folks on this list demand a lot of respect.
I don’t foresee problems with the search engines as you usually get what you
are searching for. Meanwhile I suggest we altogether promise to do our best
to keep it civil and disciplined somewhat.

Thanks Peter!

//Daniel

wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing list
> specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows system
> software issues.
>
> As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to serve
> the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at OSR. We
> propose to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description of
> ?Extended discussion and debate on Windows system software.?
>
> We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no
> politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety of
> reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries or
> consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching or
> offering.
>
> We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a small
> number of community members moderators of the forum (in addition to OSR
> staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to lock or delete threads
> that violate the rules.
>
> What do you think about the idea of a new forum?
>
> What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name, rules,
> and moderation?
>
> Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to
> please all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this
> week.
>
> Peter
> OSR
>
>
>

-1.

IMHO the list member in question could start a blog
instead, and these who are interested could follow there.
Also there are the old good alt.os usenet NGs.

Regards,
– pa

It is just that almost everything has two sides ( bad and good), and with
persistent effort from Peter specially, we have seen this “mine is better
than yours …”. Sometime it is emotional, some time it is persistent. All
we need to do is to have some people more vigilant than just Peter. And
that is not to say that there were not. If I’m persistently pissing off
people, I deserved to be pissed wholesale and royally.

If it is just systems level, that is okay for me. What I’ve found so far
is that some fairly well respected system software professionals also do
application level work. Also some people from the application area knows
much better about .NET than if I’ve to say something about it.

But I guess it is a balancing act. And if there has to be a priority, one
suggestion would be –

  1. Try to open up to systems areas of other OSes too.

  2. Then if it goes well, relax a bit to let - .NET, c#, f#, and app
    writers to have their say!!!

Well, Alberto and Anton please have your say here. Don’t miss the
opportunity :-).

-pro

Name it Pandora’s Box.

Regarding the ‘other O/S’ topics. I think it very healthy to compare and
contrast OS/X, Linux, CE, PalmOS, etc. with NT especially from the point
of
view of how to deliver solutions on multiple OS targets with engineering
efficiency. As was noted before, “my O/S is great and yours sucks
because
…” is just not that useful and should be discouraged. However,
suggestions, ideas, and hard-won experience on how to live in a multi-OS
world would be welcome.

I just hope that the discourse can maintain a thoughtful and professional
(analytical) tone.

Thanks for volunteering to burden OSR and the list slaves with even more
service to the community!

-Dave


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

I think that is a little bit extreme. You can roll just about anything under the “but this could be used for malware!” rug, ever since operating systems have supported doing things like deleting or replacing files.

I do think that understanding how things work “under the hood” - even if it’s understood that the details are subject to change - has real, positive benefits (i.e. debugging). Can you honestly say that it’s *never* helped to know implementation details while you were trying to figure out a strange bug?

  • S

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas F. Divine
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 08:28
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???

The new list would obviously be more open to discussing non-standard
techniques not recommended for use in “professional” drivers. Extending this
a little:

Would the new list be an OSR-sanctioned malware author list?

I generally like the idea of discussing a wider variety of driver-related
issues. They might not be of any practical or immediate use, but they might
be just the right “food-for-thought” that leads to a solution in unexpected
situations.

Thomas

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-359855-
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:38 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???
>
> Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing list
> specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows system
> software issues.
>
> As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to
> serve the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at OSR.
> We propose to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description of
> ?Extended discussion and debate on Windows system software.?
>
> We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no
> politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety of
> reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries or
> consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching or
> offering.
>
> We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a
> small number of community members moderators of the forum (in addition
> to OSR staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to lock or
> delete threads that violate the rules.
>
> What do you think about the idea of a new forum?
>
> What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name,
> rules, and moderation?
>
> Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to
> please all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this
> week.
>
> Peter
> OSR


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

You know, I agree with you 100-percent. I suspect that when pressed for a
solution we will deviate from “best practices” to alternative solutions if
the risk is not too great. I can honestly say that I *have* resorted to
using undocumented techniques and other schemes to get jobs done. Just a
little “between-the-lines” research based on…

And sure, knowing the dirty details of bad or improperly documented APIs is
in our collective best interest.

Personally I think that some software (e.g., Symantec AV) is truly insidious
malware when improperly controlled by self-serving IT personnel who
overextend their presumed responsibility to the point that it interferes
with legitimate applications and services.

It’s Peter’s reputation, so I brought it up. I suspect it’s a “don’t care”.

Thomas

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-359884-
xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Skywing
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:16 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???

I think that is a little bit extreme. You can roll just about anything
under the “but this could be used for malware!” rug, ever since
operating systems have supported doing things like deleting or
replacing files.

I do think that understanding how things work “under the hood” - even
if it’s understood that the details are subject to change - has real,
positive benefits (i.e. debugging). Can you honestly say that it’s
*never* helped to know implementation details while you were trying to
figure out a strange bug?

  • S

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas F. Divine
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 08:28
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???
>
>
> The new list would obviously be more open to discussing non-standard
> techniques not recommended for use in “professional” drivers. Extending
> this
> a little:
>
> Would the new list be an OSR-sanctioned malware author list?
>
> I generally like the idea of discussing a wider variety of driver-
> related
> issues. They might not be of any practical or immediate use, but they
> might
> be just the right “food-for-thought” that leads to a solution in
> unexpected
> situations.
>
> Thomas
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-359855-
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
> > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:38 AM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???
> >
> > Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing list
> > specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows system
> > software issues.
> >
> > As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to
> > serve the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at OSR.
> > We propose to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description
> of
> > ?Extended discussion and debate on Windows system software.?
> >
> > We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no
> > politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety
> of
> > reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries or
> > consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching or
> > offering.
> >
> > We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a
> > small number of community members moderators of the forum (in
> addition
> > to OSR staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to lock or
> > delete threads that violate the rules.
> >
> > What do you think about the idea of a new forum?
> >
> > What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name,
> > rules, and moderation?
> >
> > Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to
> > please all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this
> > week.
> >
> > Peter
> > OSR
>
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

Yes but if it is a next OSR list it’d be easier to move unwanted
discussions from other lists there. You don’t have to subscribe it,
anyway. I probably won’t do but I appreciate OSR’s willingness to
support list members who can’t live without such discussions.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Pavel A.
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:07 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re:[ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???

-1.

IMHO the list member in question could start a blog
instead, and these who are interested could follow there.
Also there are the old good alt.os usenet NGs.

Regards,
– pa


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online
at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

Forum pages become hard to follow when there are so many sub-forums.(Look at codeguru.com, they have Graphics Programming , Multithreading, Network Programming subsections, but almost all members open thread at Visual C++ Programming subsection). But for osronline community, yes, you need a new List.

So if anyone have a problem with their projects, continue to open thread in these list: NTDEV, NTFSD and Windbg, but if anyone has an idea to discuss about OSes, libraries, general concepts, frameworks, science and technology or maybe just about life, can open a thread.

If anything hurts Peter’s ( including all the moderators ) reputations
then how hard would it be to (a) send warnings (b) block posting (c)
selectively banned from posting in the list ( for times ) …

Because, I suspect even there would be subscribers without identifiable
names, trash those subscription outright ( after asking to change to real
names etc.)

And also it is just a trial, if it works as per stipulated conditions, it
is fine, otherwise close it.

Finally, I think anything without basis would fail to survive. BS has a
unit domain, does not carry far, so catching them would be easy.

-pro

You know, I agree with you 100-percent. I suspect that when pressed for a
solution we will deviate from “best practices” to alternative solutions if
the risk is not too great. I can honestly say that I *have* resorted to
using undocumented techniques and other schemes to get jobs done. Just a
little “between-the-lines” research based on…

And sure, knowing the dirty details of bad or improperly documented APIs
is
in our collective best interest.

Personally I think that some software (e.g., Symantec AV) is truly
insidious
malware when improperly controlled by self-serving IT personnel who
overextend their presumed responsibility to the point that it interferes
with legitimate applications and services.

It’s Peter’s reputation, so I brought it up. I suspect it’s a “don’t
care”.

Thomas

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-359884-
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Skywing
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:16 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???
>
> I think that is a little bit extreme. You can roll just about anything
> under the “but this could be used for malware!” rug, ever since
> operating systems have supported doing things like deleting or
> replacing files.
>
> I do think that understanding how things work “under the hood” - even
> if it’s understood that the details are subject to change - has real,
> positive benefits (i.e. debugging). Can you honestly say that it’s
> *never* helped to know implementation details while you were trying to
> figure out a strange bug?
>
> - S
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas F. Divine
>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 08:28
>> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
>> Subject: RE: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???
>>
>>
>> The new list would obviously be more open to discussing non-standard
>> techniques not recommended for use in “professional” drivers. Extending
>> this
>> a little:
>>
>> Would the new list be an OSR-sanctioned malware author list?
>>
>> I generally like the idea of discussing a wider variety of driver-
>> related
>> issues. They might not be of any practical or immediate use, but they
>> might
>> be just the right “food-for-thought” that leads to a solution in
>> unexpected
>> situations.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-359855-
>> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
>> > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:38 AM
>> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
>> > Subject: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???
>> >
>> > Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing list
>> > specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows system
>> > software issues.
>> >
>> > As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to
>> > serve the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at OSR.
>> > We propose to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description
>> of
>> > ?Extended discussion and debate on Windows system software.?
>> >
>> > We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no
>> > politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety
>> of
>> > reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries or
>> > consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching or
>> > offering.
>> >
>> > We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a
>> > small number of community members moderators of the forum (in
>> addition
>> > to OSR staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to lock or
>> > delete threads that violate the rules.
>> >
>> > What do you think about the idea of a new forum?
>> >
>> > What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name,
>> > rules, and moderation?
>> >
>> > Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to
>> > please all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this
>> > week.
>> >
>> > Peter
>> > OSR
>>
>>
>>
>> —
>> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>>
>> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
>> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>>
>> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
>> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>>
>> —
>> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>>
>> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
>> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>>
>> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
>> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

> Personally I think that some software (e.g., Symantec AV) is truly insidious
> malware when improperly controlled by self-serving IT personnel who
> overextend their presumed responsibility to the point that it interferes
> with legitimate applications and services.

+1, especially when things like this are unwilling to remove all of their respective parts
voluntarily or at least notify of their failure to do so.

mm

Thomas F. Divine wrote:

You know, I agree with you 100-percent. I suspect that when pressed for a
solution we will deviate from “best practices” to alternative solutions if
the risk is not too great. I can honestly say that I *have* resorted to
using undocumented techniques and other schemes to get jobs done. Just a
little “between-the-lines” research based on…

And sure, knowing the dirty details of bad or improperly documented APIs is
in our collective best interest.

Personally I think that some software (e.g., Symantec AV) is truly insidious
malware when improperly controlled by self-serving IT personnel who
overextend their presumed responsibility to the point that it interferes
with legitimate applications and services.

It’s Peter’s reputation, so I brought it up. I suspect it’s a “don’t care”.

Thomas

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-359884-
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Skywing
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:16 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???
>
> I think that is a little bit extreme. You can roll just about anything
> under the “but this could be used for malware!” rug, ever since
> operating systems have supported doing things like deleting or
> replacing files.
>
> I do think that understanding how things work “under the hood” - even
> if it’s understood that the details are subject to change - has real,
> positive benefits (i.e. debugging). Can you honestly say that it’s
> *never* helped to know implementation details while you were trying to
> figure out a strange bug?
>
> - S
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas F. Divine
>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 08:28
>> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
>> Subject: RE: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???
>>
>>
>> The new list would obviously be more open to discussing non-standard
>> techniques not recommended for use in “professional” drivers. Extending
>> this
>> a little:
>>
>> Would the new list be an OSR-sanctioned malware author list?
>>
>> I generally like the idea of discussing a wider variety of driver-
>> related
>> issues. They might not be of any practical or immediate use, but they
>> might
>> be just the right “food-for-thought” that leads to a solution in
>> unexpected
>> situations.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-359855-
>>> xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
>>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:38 AM
>>> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
>>> Subject: [ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???
>>>
>>> Several community members have suggested that we start a mailing list
>>> specifically for extended discussions and debates of Windows system
>>> software issues.
>>>
>>> As there seems to be real interest, and we want to do what we can to
>>> serve the community, we?d be pleased to host such a list here at OSR.
>>> We propose to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description
>> of
>>> ?Extended discussion and debate on Windows system software.?
>>>
>>> We propose the list have very few, yet clear, common sense rules: no
>>> politics, no religion, no abuse, no hate speech. For a wide variety
>> of
>>> reasons we also propose, no discussion of compensation (salaries or
>>> consulting rates), no product solicitation, and no job searching or
>>> offering.
>>>
>>> We propose the forum be mostly non-moderated. We propose to make a
>>> small number of community members moderators of the forum (in
>> addition
>>> to OSR staff), to keep things civil, and with the power to lock or
>>> delete threads that violate the rules.
>>>
>>> What do you think about the idea of a new forum?
>>>
>>> What?s your opinion of our proposals, above, regarding forum name,
>>> rules, and moderation?
>>>
>>> Let us all hear what you want, and we?ll try to set up a new list to
>>> please all. If we get a consensus, we can have the list running this
>>> week.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>> OSR
>>
>>
>> —
>> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>>
>> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
>> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>>
>> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
>> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>>
>> —
>> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>>
>> For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
>> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>>
>> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
>> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>
>

> We propose to call the list DriverDiscuss with the short description of ?Extended discussion

and debate on Windows system software.?

I think it would be a better idea not to limit our discussions to Windows, but, indeed, to allow discussions of other OS as well. OTOH, I firmly believe this list should limit itself strictly to system-level programming . IMHO, discussions of UM development don’t really belong on OSR lists. After all, AFAIK, the very abbreviation OSR stands for Open System Resources, and,hence, discussions of higher-level development, apparently, belong elsewhere. Therefore, discussions of C# , Java, etc don’t seem to belong on this list (unless we discuss them in context of writing OS-level software in managed language, of course)…

Anton Bassov

> -----Original Message-----

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
xxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 12:18 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] New Extended Discussion and Debate List???

IMHO,
discussions of UM development don’t really belong on OSR
lists.

Hey! Working on UMDF driver just now I feel discriminated! ;-)))

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
UPEK, Inc.
[xxxxx@upek.com, http://www.upek.com]