Converting NT Driver to XP

NTFSD
1

Hi all,

I’m sure this question has been asked a million times before, but here goes.

I’ve got an NT FS Filter Driver that is based on the sfilter sample from
the NT ifs kit.

When Win2k came out I changed it a bit to work on that OS. What do I have
to do to make it work on XP ?

Specifically:
Do I need to buy the XP IFS kit ? (I don’t want to)
Can I just change my current NT driver around a little bit ?
Can I use the Win2k IFS kit I currently have to make a WDM driver that
works in XP ?

Thanks for the help.

Regards,
Graham Allen

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2

Graham,

I’m curious, why don’t you want to get the XP IFS Kit? The SFilter example
(in particular) is substantially updated in the XP kit and you’d be much
better off looking at the new example (lots of bug fixes!)

File system filter drivers are not WDM drivers. You are never going to get
it to work on Win 9x/ME. So, the answer is that yes, you can change your
current NT driver around. It is still probably going to be faster to get
the XP IFS Kit and review it as part of that process.

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Allen [mailto:xxxxx@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 8:00 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] Converting NT Driver to XP

Hi all,

I’m sure this question has been asked a million times before, but here goes.

I’ve got an NT FS Filter Driver that is based on the sfilter sample from
the NT ifs kit.

When Win2k came out I changed it a bit to work on that OS. What do I have
to do to make it work on XP ?

Specifically:
Do I need to buy the XP IFS kit ? (I don’t want to)
Can I just change my current NT driver around a little bit ?
Can I use the Win2k IFS kit I currently have to make a WDM driver that
works in XP ?

Thanks for the help.

Regards,
Graham Allen

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3

Hi Tony,

Thanks for your email. My main concern was cost, but I notice the upgrade
cost is only $109 so I think I’ll buy it.

What do you do to change your NT driver code though ? My driver causes the
boot process to just hang in NT, without any error messages.

Regards,
Graham Allen

At 12:00 21/11/01 -0500, Tony Mason wrote:

Graham,

I’m curious, why don’t you want to get the XP IFS Kit? The SFilter example
(in particular) is substantially updated in the XP kit and you’d be much
better off looking at the new example (lots of bug fixes!)

File system filter drivers are not WDM drivers. You are never going to get
it to work on Win 9x/ME. So, the answer is that yes, you can change your
current NT driver around. It is still probably going to be faster to get
the XP IFS Kit and review it as part of that process.

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Allen [mailto:xxxxx@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 8:00 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] Converting NT Driver to XP

Hi all,

I’m sure this question has been asked a million times before, but here goes.

I’ve got an NT FS Filter Driver that is based on the sfilter sample from
the NT ifs kit.

When Win2k came out I changed it a bit to work on that OS. What do I have
to do to make it work on XP ?

Specifically:
Do I need to buy the XP IFS kit ? (I don’t want to)
Can I just change my current NT driver around a little bit ?
Can I use the Win2k IFS kit I currently have to make a WDM driver that
works in XP ?

Thanks for the help.

Regards,
Graham Allen

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4

Graham,

Actually, I couldn’t give you a definitive list. My problem at this point is
that we were working with XP off and on for so long that we didn’t go
through a single-step “conversion” process. We did see someone who had a
problem hanging in the boot process that related to an attempt to scan the
FAT file system while loading the FAT file system driver (which was, oddly
enough, already loaded, but apparently THAT error was going to occur later
in the sequence.)

But you should be able to see what’s happening in the debugger - WinDBG does
an EXCELLENT job of giving you everything you need to find deadlocks.

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Allen [mailto:xxxxx@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 7:23 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Hi Tony,

Thanks for your email. My main concern was cost, but I notice the upgrade
cost is only $109 so I think I’ll buy it.

What do you do to change your NT driver code though ? My driver causes the
boot process to just hang in NT, without any error messages.

Regards,
Graham Allen

At 12:00 21/11/01 -0500, Tony Mason wrote:

Graham,

I’m curious, why don’t you want to get the XP IFS Kit? The SFilter example
(in particular) is substantially updated in the XP kit and you’d be much
better off looking at the new example (lots of bug fixes!)

File system filter drivers are not WDM drivers. You are never going to get
it to work on Win 9x/ME. So, the answer is that yes, you can change your
current NT driver around. It is still probably going to be faster to get
the XP IFS Kit and review it as part of that process.

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Allen [mailto:xxxxx@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 8:00 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] Converting NT Driver to XP

Hi all,

I’m sure this question has been asked a million times before, but here
goes.

I’ve got an NT FS Filter Driver that is based on the sfilter sample from
the NT ifs kit.

When Win2k came out I changed it a bit to work on that OS. What do I have
to do to make it work on XP ?

Specifically:
Do I need to buy the XP IFS kit ? (I don’t want to)
Can I just change my current NT driver around a little bit ?
Can I use the Win2k IFS kit I currently have to make a WDM driver that
works in XP ?

Thanks for the help.

Regards,
Graham Allen

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5

You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the new
samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
problems that we have had to address.

You can surly build an FSD filter using the NT 4.0 IFS kit and it will
run under NT, 2000 and XP; as long as you follow some rules. Do not call
2000/XP specific functions unless you implement a kernel-mode version of
getprocaddress().

Jamey

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Tony Mason
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 7:37 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Graham,

Actually, I couldn’t give you a definitive list. My problem at this
point is that we were working with XP off and on for so long that we
didn’t go through a single-step “conversion” process. We did see
someone who had a problem hanging in the boot process that related to an
attempt to scan the FAT file system while loading the FAT file system
driver (which was, oddly enough, already loaded, but apparently THAT
error was going to occur later in the sequence.)

But you should be able to see what’s happening in the debugger - WinDBG
does an EXCELLENT job of giving you everything you need to find
deadlocks.

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Allen [mailto:xxxxx@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 7:23 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Hi Tony,

Thanks for your email. My main concern was cost, but I notice the
upgrade
cost is only $109 so I think I’ll buy it.

What do you do to change your NT driver code though ? My driver causes
the
boot process to just hang in NT, without any error messages.

Regards,
Graham Allen

At 12:00 21/11/01 -0500, Tony Mason wrote:

Graham,

I’m curious, why don’t you want to get the XP IFS Kit? The SFilter
example (in particular) is substantially updated in the XP kit and
you’d be much better off looking at the new example (lots of bug
fixes!)

File system filter drivers are not WDM drivers. You are never going to

get it to work on Win 9x/ME. So, the answer is that yes, you can
change your current NT driver around. It is still probably going to be

faster to get the XP IFS Kit and review it as part of that process.

Regards,

Tony

Tony Mason
Consulting Partner
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Allen [mailto:xxxxx@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 8:00 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] Converting NT Driver to XP

Hi all,

I’m sure this question has been asked a million times before, but here
goes.

I’ve got an NT FS Filter Driver that is based on the sfilter sample
from the NT ifs kit.

When Win2k came out I changed it a bit to work on that OS. What do I
have to do to make it work on XP ?

Specifically:
Do I need to buy the XP IFS kit ? (I don’t want to)
Can I just change my current NT driver around a little bit ? Can I use
the Win2k IFS kit I currently have to make a WDM driver that works in
XP ?

Thanks for the help.

Regards,
Graham Allen

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6

Dear Jamey:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:

You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the new
samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
problems that we have had to address.

It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is better
than the one I already have.

In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?

[snip]

Jamey

Ralph Shnelvar

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7

Yes. At 109, it is worth the new kit for sure.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Shnelvar
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:53 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Dear Jamey:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:

You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the new
samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
problems that we have had to address.

It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
better than the one I already have.

In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?

[snip]

Jamey

Ralph Shnelvar

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8

Dear Jamey:

I hate to beat a dead horse but …

You wrote “SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good”.

Is the XP version of the SFILTER
bad
not so good
good
stellar
?

In other words, is it still buggy?

Ralph Shnelvar

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:45:44 -0800, you wrote:

Yes. At 109, it is worth the new kit for sure.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Shnelvar
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:53 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Dear Jamey:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:

>You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the new
>samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
>problems that we have had to address.

It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
better than the one I already have.

In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?

>
[snip]
>
>Jamey

Ralph Shnelvar

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9

It’s worth it for the documentation alone. Additionally, there are
examples of how to use the new XP interfaces in SFilter so that’s got to
be worth $109.

It’s pretty interesting that a number of questions have come up about
the price of the kit itself. The bottom line is, if you’re developing
filters or file systems professionally, there should be no question
about purchasing the IFS Kit. If you can’t afford the kit then you
probably shouldn’t be in this line of work. Try developing web pages
instead.

Developing filters and file systems is not trivial or casual work for
the hobbyist. I’m glad the kit is not free if, for nothing else, just to
keep the development of this type of driver in the hands of the truly
serious.

My opinions alone.

–jerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Shnelvar [mailto:xxxxx@dos32.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Dear Jamey:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:

You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the new
samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
problems that we have had to address.

It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
better
than the one I already have.

In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?

[snip]

Jamey

Ralph Shnelvar

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10

In XP, it is good.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Shnelvar
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 9:54 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Dear Jamey:

I hate to beat a dead horse but …

You wrote “SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good”.

Is the XP version of the SFILTER
bad
not so good
good
stellar
?

In other words, is it still buggy?

Ralph Shnelvar

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:45:44 -0800, you wrote:

Yes. At 109, it is worth the new kit for sure.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Shnelvar
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:53 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Dear Jamey:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:

>You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the new
>samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
>problems that we have had to address.

It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
better than the one I already have.

In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?

>
[snip]
>
>Jamey

Ralph Shnelvar

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11

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Kelley, Jerry wrote:

Developing filters and file systems is not trivial or casual work for
the hobbyist.
Why not? I’m genuinely curious. If a hobbyist wishes to write a driver,
why shouldn’t they? It’s not like they’re going to force you to use it,
is it?

I’m glad the kit is not free if, for nothing else, just to
keep the development of this type of driver in the hands of the truly
serious.
That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve seen on this list.

I guess the whole “Linux” thing has passed you by, has it?

Personally, I have a hard time understanding why the IFS Kit is expensive,
and I’m somewhat pissed off that the DDK is no longer downloadable; a
“free” CD is not a good alternative, IMO. That they should wish to
restrict people from writing windows software boggles the mind, to be
honest.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Shnelvar [mailto:xxxxx@dos32.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Dear Jamey:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:

>You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the new
>samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
>problems that we have had to address.

It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
better
than the one I already have.

In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?

>
[snip]
>
>Jamey

Ralph Shnelvar

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–
Peter xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
http://www.inkvine.fluff.org/~peter/

logic kicks ass:
(1) Horses have an even number of legs.
(2) They have two legs in back and fore legs in front.
(3) This makes a total of six legs, which certainly is an odd number of
legs for a horse.
(4) But the only number that is both odd and even is infinity.
(5) Therefore, horses must have an infinite number of legs.

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12

The SFILTER example in the previous versions of the IFS kit have been
updated in the new version. These contain things like updating the way that
IRPs are passed down the stack. The SFILTER example has been cleaned up and
updated from the older IFS kits. I think you can get a complete list of
updates from the MS site in terms of what has or hasn’t been changed. I’ve
never had much problems with the old SFILTER example, but I haven’t used it
on very exotic machines. The new IFS kit contains a lot of updates in terms
of documentation over the older IFS kit, and there are a lot of new
extensions especially for filter drivers now, so I think it’s worth the $109
bucks to upgrade, especially if your IT dept. is willing to pay for it.

Cheers,

Will

----- Original Message -----
From: “Ralph Shnelvar”
To: “File Systems Developers”
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 9:53 AM
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

> Dear Jamey:
>
> I hate to beat a dead horse but …
>
> You wrote “SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good”.
>
> Is the XP version of the SFILTER
> bad
> not so good
> good
> stellar
> ?
>
> In other words, is it still buggy?
>
> Ralph Shnelvar
>
>
>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:45:44 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >Yes. At 109, it is worth the new kit for sure.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Shnelvar
> >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:53 AM
> >To: File Systems Developers
> >Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP
> >
> >
> >Dear Jamey:
> >
> >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >>You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the new
> >>samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
> >>problems that we have had to address.
> >
> >It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
> >better than the one I already have.
> >
> >In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?
> >
> >>
> >[snip]
> >>
> >>Jamey
> >
> >Ralph Shnelvar
> >
> >—
> >You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@storagecraft.com To
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> >
> >
> >—
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>
>
> —
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13

Have you actually looked at the IFS Kit? It contains actual, distributed
source code. The statements you made make it sound as if you’ve never
actually even used it. Have you even looked at it? Did you not realize
that the FastFAT and CDFS sources are for the drivers included in the
OS? Do you know how much it costs to license the NT source? That’s a
little bit more than the price of the IFS Kit.

As for Linux, yes I have worked on it and there’s a reason why it’s free
besides the mindset of those who developed it. (Have you really looked
at the Linux kernel?) The Linux world is driven by the concept of source
code that’s free but services that aren’t. That’s a different beast in
case you haven’t noticed and not comparable to NT.

No one says you can’t write a filter driver. Where is it written that
you can’t? Okay, so they charge a fee. Get over it.

This list is starting to sound like a Linux list with all the whining
about costs and personal attacks. If you like Linux so much and getting
everything for free, why don’t you stick with Linux then?

-----Original Message-----
From: PeterB [mailto:xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 1:52 PM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Kelley, Jerry wrote:

Developing filters and file systems is not trivial or casual work for
the hobbyist.
Why not? I’m genuinely curious. If a hobbyist wishes to write a
driver,
why shouldn’t they? It’s not like they’re going to force you to use it,
is it?

I’m glad the kit is not free if, for nothing else, just to
keep the development of this type of driver in the hands of the truly
serious.
That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve seen on this list.

I guess the whole “Linux” thing has passed you by, has it?

Personally, I have a hard time understanding why the IFS Kit is
expensive,
and I’m somewhat pissed off that the DDK is no longer downloadable; a
“free” CD is not a good alternative, IMO. That they should wish to
restrict people from writing windows software boggles the mind, to be
honest.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Shnelvar [mailto:xxxxx@dos32.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Dear Jamey:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:

>You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the
new
>samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
>problems that we have had to address.

It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
better
than the one I already have.

In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?

>
[snip]
>
>Jamey

Ralph Shnelvar

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Peter
xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
http://www.inkvine.fluff.org/~peter/

logic kicks ass:
(1) Horses have an even number of legs.
(2) They have two legs in back and fore legs in front.
(3) This makes a total of six legs, which certainly is an odd number of
legs for a horse.
(4) But the only number that is both odd and even is infinity.
(5) Therefore, horses must have an infinite number of legs.

You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@nsisoftware.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com

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14

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Kelley, Jerry wrote:

Have you actually looked at the IFS Kit?
Yes.

It contains actual, distributed
source code.
Yes, I know.

The statements you made make it sound as if you’ve never
actually even used it.
You want I should take a picture of my CD?

Have you even looked at it? Did you not realize
that the FastFAT and CDFS sources are for the drivers included in the
OS?
Yes. I think it’s irrelevent. They contain nothing that’s particularly
secret (FAT being, unlike NTFS, well-documented, ISO9660 being a published
ISO standard).

Do you know how much it costs to license the NT source?
No, I’ve heard as much as six digits.

That’s a
little bit more than the price of the IFS Kit.
Yes, it is. And people aren’t licensing the NT source in order to find
out how the FAT driver works. The price of a complete NT source license
has no relevance to the price of the IFS Kit.

As for Linux, yes I have worked on it and there’s a reason why it’s free
besides the mindset of those who developed it. (Have you really looked
at the Linux kernel?)
Yup.

The Linux world is driven by the concept of source
code that’s free but services that aren’t.
Bollocks. The Linux world is driven by the concept that source should be
free. The idea of “services that aren’t” came about long after Linux was
first developed, and is merely corporations attempting to make money on
something free.

That’s a different beast in
case you haven’t noticed and not comparable to NT.

No one says you can’t write a filter driver. Where is it written that
you can’t? Okay, so they charge a fee. Get over it.
Yes, they charge a fee. They shouldn’t.

This list is starting to sound like a Linux list with all the whining
about costs and personal attacks. If you like Linux so much and getting
everything for free, why don’t you stick with Linux then?
Because I prefer Windows. But I cannot fathom making people pay to get
the pisspoor documentation so that they can write software to make Windows
a more attractive platform.

-----Original Message-----
From: PeterB [mailto:xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 1:52 PM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Kelley, Jerry wrote:

> Developing filters and file systems is not trivial or casual work for
> the hobbyist.
Why not? I’m genuinely curious. If a hobbyist wishes to write a
driver,
why shouldn’t they? It’s not like they’re going to force you to use it,
is it?

> I’m glad the kit is not free if, for nothing else, just to
> keep the development of this type of driver in the hands of the truly
> serious.
That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve seen on this list.

I guess the whole “Linux” thing has passed you by, has it?

Personally, I have a hard time understanding why the IFS Kit is
expensive,
and I’m somewhat pissed off that the DDK is no longer downloadable; a
“free” CD is not a good alternative, IMO. That they should wish to
restrict people from writing windows software boggles the mind, to be
honest.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ralph Shnelvar [mailto:xxxxx@dos32.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 AM
> To: File Systems Developers
> Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP
>
>
> Dear Jamey:
>
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the
new
> >samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
> >problems that we have had to address.
>
> It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
> better
> than the one I already have.
>
> In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?
>
> >
> [snip]
> >
> >Jamey
>
> Ralph Shnelvar
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@nsisoftware.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
>

–
Peter xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
http://www.inkvine.fluff.org/~peter/

logic kicks ass:
(1) Horses have an even number of legs.
(2) They have two legs in back and fore legs in front.
(3) This makes a total of six legs, which certainly is an odd number of
legs for a horse.
(4) But the only number that is both odd and even is infinity.
(5) Therefore, horses must have an infinite number of legs.

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15

Mr. Jerry Kelly sounds like he needs to take some anger management classes.
May I remind the participants of this list that it is public, and that
hot-headed comments are freely viewed, distributed, and archived on the
world wide web. In other words, be careful of what you say. The NT Driver
community is relatively small, and angry comments rarely reflect well on the
author, nor to the companies they represent (especially when they have email
addresses that point to their workplace of origin). I’d suggest that you
gentlemen cool down a bit before responding in a public forum.
I believe that a forum like this ought to remain open minded, and welcome
questions and suggestions of every sort. Becoming confrontational about it
merely prevents the propogation of facts. If individuals cannot act civilly
amongst others then they ought to promptly remove themselves from this
mailing list.

Sincerely,

Will

----- Original Message -----
From: “Kelley, Jerry”
To: “File Systems Developers”
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:35 PM
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Have you actually looked at the IFS Kit? It contains actual, distributed
source code. The statements you made make it sound as if you’ve never
actually even used it. Have you even looked at it? Did you not realize
that the FastFAT and CDFS sources are for the drivers included in the
OS? Do you know how much it costs to license the NT source? That’s a
little bit more than the price of the IFS Kit.

As for Linux, yes I have worked on it and there’s a reason why it’s free
besides the mindset of those who developed it. (Have you really looked
at the Linux kernel?) The Linux world is driven by the concept of source
code that’s free but services that aren’t. That’s a different beast in
case you haven’t noticed and not comparable to NT.

No one says you can’t write a filter driver. Where is it written that
you can’t? Okay, so they charge a fee. Get over it.

This list is starting to sound like a Linux list with all the whining
about costs and personal attacks. If you like Linux so much and getting
everything for free, why don’t you stick with Linux then?

-----Original Message-----
From: PeterB [mailto:xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 1:52 PM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Kelley, Jerry wrote:

> Developing filters and file systems is not trivial or casual work for
> the hobbyist.
Why not? I’m genuinely curious. If a hobbyist wishes to write a
driver,
why shouldn’t they? It’s not like they’re going to force you to use it,
is it?

> I’m glad the kit is not free if, for nothing else, just to
> keep the development of this type of driver in the hands of the truly
> serious.
That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve seen on this list.

I guess the whole “Linux” thing has passed you by, has it?

Personally, I have a hard time understanding why the IFS Kit is
expensive,
and I’m somewhat pissed off that the DDK is no longer downloadable; a
“free” CD is not a good alternative, IMO. That they should wish to
restrict people from writing windows software boggles the mind, to be
honest.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ralph Shnelvar [mailto:xxxxx@dos32.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 AM
> To: File Systems Developers
> Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP
>
>
> Dear Jamey:
>
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the
new
> >samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
> >problems that we have had to address.
>
> It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
> better
> than the one I already have.
>
> In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?
>
> >
> [snip]
> >
> >Jamey
>
> Ralph Shnelvar
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@nsisoftware.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
>

–
Peter
xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
http://www.inkvine.fluff.org/~peter/

logic kicks ass:
(1) Horses have an even number of legs.
(2) They have two legs in back and fore legs in front.
(3) This makes a total of six legs, which certainly is an odd number of
legs for a horse.
(4) But the only number that is both odd and even is infinity.
(5) Therefore, horses must have an infinite number of legs.

—
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16

Mr. Chow,

Thank you for your insight. My comments were not meant to be construed
as accusatory or angry in nature. I merely stated my opinion on why I
liked the idea of a charge for the IFS Kit and I defended it. Evidently,
I came across in the wrong light and I do apologize if I stepped on any
toes. That was not my goal.

I guess mine were the first blunt comments made on this list. Sorry
about that.

P.S. - I’ll be sure to pass along information about anger management
classes should I find a good deal. :wink:

-----Original Message-----
From: William Chow [mailto:xxxxx@javabear.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:59 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Mr. Jerry Kelly sounds like he needs to take some anger management
classes.
May I remind the participants of this list that it is public, and that
hot-headed comments are freely viewed, distributed, and archived on the
world wide web. In other words, be careful of what you say. The NT
Driver
community is relatively small, and angry comments rarely reflect well on
the
author, nor to the companies they represent (especially when they have
email
addresses that point to their workplace of origin). I’d suggest that you
gentlemen cool down a bit before responding in a public forum.
I believe that a forum like this ought to remain open minded, and
welcome
questions and suggestions of every sort. Becoming confrontational about
it
merely prevents the propogation of facts. If individuals cannot act
civilly
amongst others then they ought to promptly remove themselves from this
mailing list.

Sincerely,

Will

----- Original Message -----
From: “Kelley, Jerry”
To: “File Systems Developers”
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:35 PM
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Have you actually looked at the IFS Kit? It contains actual, distributed
source code. The statements you made make it sound as if you’ve never
actually even used it. Have you even looked at it? Did you not realize
that the FastFAT and CDFS sources are for the drivers included in the
OS? Do you know how much it costs to license the NT source? That’s a
little bit more than the price of the IFS Kit.

As for Linux, yes I have worked on it and there’s a reason why it’s free
besides the mindset of those who developed it. (Have you really looked
at the Linux kernel?) The Linux world is driven by the concept of source
code that’s free but services that aren’t. That’s a different beast in
case you haven’t noticed and not comparable to NT.

No one says you can’t write a filter driver. Where is it written that
you can’t? Okay, so they charge a fee. Get over it.

This list is starting to sound like a Linux list with all the whining
about costs and personal attacks. If you like Linux so much and getting
everything for free, why don’t you stick with Linux then?

-----Original Message-----
From: PeterB [mailto:xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 1:52 PM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Kelley, Jerry wrote:

> Developing filters and file systems is not trivial or casual work for
> the hobbyist.
Why not? I’m genuinely curious. If a hobbyist wishes to write a
driver,
why shouldn’t they? It’s not like they’re going to force you to use it,
is it?

> I’m glad the kit is not free if, for nothing else, just to
> keep the development of this type of driver in the hands of the truly
> serious.
That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve seen on this list.

I guess the whole “Linux” thing has passed you by, has it?

Personally, I have a hard time understanding why the IFS Kit is
expensive,
and I’m somewhat pissed off that the DDK is no longer downloadable; a
“free” CD is not a good alternative, IMO. That they should wish to
restrict people from writing windows software boggles the mind, to be
honest.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ralph Shnelvar [mailto:xxxxx@dos32.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 AM
> To: File Systems Developers
> Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP
>
>
> Dear Jamey:
>
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the
new
> >samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
> >problems that we have had to address.
>
> It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
> better
> than the one I already have.
>
> In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?
>
> >
> [snip]
> >
> >Jamey
>
> Ralph Shnelvar
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@nsisoftware.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
>

–
Peter
xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
http://www.inkvine.fluff.org/~peter/

logic kicks ass:
(1) Horses have an even number of legs.
(2) They have two legs in back and fore legs in front.
(3) This makes a total of six legs, which certainly is an odd number of
legs for a horse.
(4) But the only number that is both odd and even is infinity.
(5) Therefore, horses must have an infinite number of legs.

—
You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@nsisoftware.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com

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17

Golly gee, the ntdev list is chock full of rude comments. I guess us
hardware driver types are more earthy than you high-falooten filesystem
driver types. Then again we get to deal with a far lower signal/noise
ratio than this list.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Kelley, Jerry
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 5:28 PM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Mr. Chow,

Thank you for your insight. My comments were not meant to be
construed as accusatory or angry in nature. I merely stated
my opinion on why I liked the idea of a charge for the IFS
Kit and I defended it. Evidently, I came across in the wrong
light and I do apologize if I stepped on any toes. That was
not my goal.

I guess mine were the first blunt comments made on this list.
Sorry about that.

P.S. - I’ll be sure to pass along information about anger
management classes should I find a good deal. :wink:

-----Original Message-----
From: William Chow [mailto:xxxxx@javabear.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:59 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Mr. Jerry Kelly sounds like he needs to take some anger
management classes. May I remind the participants of this
list that it is public, and that hot-headed comments are
freely viewed, distributed, and archived on the world wide
web. In other words, be careful of what you say. The NT
Driver community is relatively small, and angry comments
rarely reflect well on the author, nor to the companies they
represent (especially when they have email addresses that
point to their workplace of origin). I’d suggest that you
gentlemen cool down a bit before responding in a public
forum. I believe that a forum like this ought to remain open
minded, and welcome questions and suggestions of every sort.
Becoming confrontational about it merely prevents the
propogation of facts. If individuals cannot act civilly
amongst others then they ought to promptly remove themselves
from this mailing list.

Sincerely,

Will

----- Original Message -----
From: “Kelley, Jerry”
> To: “File Systems Developers”
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:35 PM
> Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP
>
>
>
> Have you actually looked at the IFS Kit? It contains actual,
> distributed source code. The statements you made make it
> sound as if you’ve never actually even used it. Have you even
> looked at it? Did you not realize that the FastFAT and CDFS
> sources are for the drivers included in the OS? Do you know
> how much it costs to license the NT source? That’s a little
> bit more than the price of the IFS Kit.
>
> As for Linux, yes I have worked on it and there’s a reason
> why it’s free besides the mindset of those who developed it.
> (Have you really looked at the Linux kernel?) The Linux world
> is driven by the concept of source code that’s free but
> services that aren’t. That’s a different beast in case you
> haven’t noticed and not comparable to NT.
>
> No one says you can’t write a filter driver. Where is it
> written that you can’t? Okay, so they charge a fee. Get over it.
>
> This list is starting to sound like a Linux list with all the
> whining about costs and personal attacks. If you like Linux
> so much and getting everything for free, why don’t you stick
> with Linux then?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PeterB [mailto:xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org]
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 1:52 PM
> To: File Systems Developers
> Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP
>
>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Kelley, Jerry wrote:
>
> > Developing filters and file systems is not trivial or
> casual work for
> > the hobbyist.
> Why not? I’m genuinely curious. If a hobbyist wishes to
> write a driver, why shouldn’t they? It’s not like they’re
> going to force you to use it, is it?
>
> > I’m glad the kit is not free if, for nothing else, just to keep the
> > development of this type of driver in the hands of the
> truly serious.
> That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve seen on this list.
>
> I guess the whole “Linux” thing has passed you by, has it?
>
> Personally, I have a hard time understanding why the IFS Kit is
> expensive,
> and I’m somewhat pissed off that the DDK is no longer downloadable; a
> “free” CD is not a good alternative, IMO. That they should wish to
> restrict people from writing windows software boggles the mind, to be
> honest.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ralph Shnelvar [mailto:xxxxx@dos32.com]
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 AM
> > To: File Systems Developers
> > Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP
> >
> >
> > Dear Jamey:
> >
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> > >You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the
> new
> > >samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good.
> There are many
> > >problems that we have had to address.
> >
> > It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of
> SFILTER is
> > better
> > than the one I already have.
> >
> > In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?
> >
> > >
> > [snip]
> > >
> > >Jamey
> >
> > Ralph Shnelvar
> >
> > —
> > You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@nsisoftware.com
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
> >
> > —
> > You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
> >
>
> –
> Peter
> xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
> http://www.inkvine.fluff.org/~peter/
>
> logic kicks ass:
> (1) Horses have an even number of legs.
> (2) They have two legs in back and fore legs in front.
> (3) This makes a total of six legs, which certainly is an odd
> number of
> legs for a horse.
> (4) But the only number that is both odd and even is infinity.
> (5) Therefore, horses must have an infinite number of legs.
>
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@nsisoftware.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
>
> —
> You are currently subscribed to ntfsd as: xxxxx@javabear.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ntfsd-$subst(‘Recip.MemberIDChar’)@lists.osr.com
>
>
> —
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>

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18

What if we are still in school and can’t develop them professionally?
Is that wrong? Should I be taken out and beaten? Sometimes interesting
things come out of random dabbling. I think windows is a better operating
system than linux, and it drives me crazy that MS has made it so hard to
dabble in filesystems. I’ve no intentions of selling anything that I
make–indeed, I doubt anyone would buy them anyhow. But I can’t for the
life of me figure out what MS has to gain by keeping developers out of file
systems. And as to the source that’s included, the regular DDK has some
samples from the OS too, what’s the difference?

-brian
----- Original Message -----
From: “Kelley, Jerry”
To: “File Systems Developers”
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:55 PM
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

It’s worth it for the documentation alone. Additionally, there are
examples of how to use the new XP interfaces in SFilter so that’s got to
be worth $109.

It’s pretty interesting that a number of questions have come up about
the price of the kit itself. The bottom line is, if you’re developing
filters or file systems professionally, there should be no question
about purchasing the IFS Kit. If you can’t afford the kit then you
probably shouldn’t be in this line of work. Try developing web pages
instead.

Developing filters and file systems is not trivial or casual work for
the hobbyist. I’m glad the kit is not free if, for nothing else, just to
keep the development of this type of driver in the hands of the truly
serious.

My opinions alone.

–jerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Shnelvar [mailto:xxxxx@dos32.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Dear Jamey:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:

>You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the new
>samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
>problems that we have had to address.

It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
better
than the one I already have.

In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?

>
[snip]
>
>Jamey

Ralph Shnelvar

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19

Regardless of any other issues with the IFS kit, I am under the
impression that one does not really dabble in NT filesystems. They are
quite complex beasts, especially for someone not experienced in other NT
kernel development experience. I you want to learn about them then you
probably want to start with something like Rajeev Nagar’s book “Windows
NT File System Internals : A Developer’s Guide”

Now as a separate issue I would think that your school would have some
kind of educational license for the IFS kit (or even the whole Windows
source) for students to learn on. Way back when I was an undergrad we
had the option of doing projects on the NT 3.51 source code for the OS
class. Ask your favorite professor about it.

Disclaimer: I have no real knowledge of what goes on for educational
licenses so use this info at your own risk.

-----Original Message-----
From: Argus [mailto:argus@vt.edu]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 6:29 PM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

What if we are still in school and can’t develop them
professionally?
Is that wrong? Should I be taken out and beaten? Sometimes interesting
things come out of random dabbling. I think windows is a better
operating
system than linux, and it drives me crazy that MS has made it so hard to
dabble in filesystems. I’ve no intentions of selling anything that I
make–indeed, I doubt anyone would buy them anyhow. But I can’t for the
life of me figure out what MS has to gain by keeping developers out of
file
systems. And as to the source that’s included, the regular DDK has some
samples from the OS too, what’s the difference?

-brian
----- Original Message -----
From: “Kelley, Jerry”
To: “File Systems Developers”
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:55 PM
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

It’s worth it for the documentation alone. Additionally, there are
examples of how to use the new XP interfaces in SFilter so that’s got to
be worth $109.

It’s pretty interesting that a number of questions have come up about
the price of the kit itself. The bottom line is, if you’re developing
filters or file systems professionally, there should be no question
about purchasing the IFS Kit. If you can’t afford the kit then you
probably shouldn’t be in this line of work. Try developing web pages
instead.

Developing filters and file systems is not trivial or casual work for
the hobbyist. I’m glad the kit is not free if, for nothing else, just to
keep the development of this type of driver in the hands of the truly
serious.

My opinions alone.

–jerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Shnelvar [mailto:xxxxx@dos32.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 AM
To: File Systems Developers
Subject: [ntfsd] RE: Converting NT Driver to XP

Dear Jamey:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:21:38 -0800, you wrote:

>You do not need to buy the new IFS kit unless you want to have the new
>samples. SFILTER sample in the IFS kit is not so good. There are many
>problems that we have had to address.

It is not clear from the English whether the XP version of SFILTER is
better
than the one I already have.

In other words, is it worth the $109 to get the new SFILTER?

>
[snip]
>
>Jamey

Ralph Shnelvar

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20

>From: PeterB [mailto:xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Kelley, Jerry wrote:
> Developing filters and file systems is not trivial or casual work for
> the hobbyist.
Why not? I’m genuinely curious. If a hobbyist wishes to write a driver,
why shouldn’t they? It’s not like they’re going to force you to use it,
is it?

Apart from the economic argument (why not charge, if all us people are going to pay for it) there is a genuine reason for discouraging too many filters and file systems out there. Filters in particular can cause some really nasty system failures which can be really hard to pin down, and sometimes only in particular configurations or when mixed with particular other ones. I haven’t so much experience with NT file systems per se, but can’t I imagine the situation is different. So by making sure that only those of us who really need a filter produce one, and that we are serious enough to put real money behind our development (and presumably QA) they help keep NT’s reliability figures up. After all, it’s hard enough to organise the plugfests that do get run, and most of us know how odd problems get shown up there. Imagine if there were 10 times as many attendees - say 200 companies, all wanting to test with each of the other 199 filters/filesystems…

Rgds
Andy.

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