AW: RE: SoftICE & Linux

NTDEV
21

well, this is more or less a sort of test of my abilities. to see if i
have the resources cabable of doing such a thing. from what ive researched
they are pretty intertwined and it wouldnt be trival at all. eventually
i plan to find a use for it somehow…


ever since i was like 5 and playing in dos ive always loved the white on
black or whatever colors i was messsing with at the time. its always easier
for me to read so i guess a sort of accesiblity, less distracting interface.
not to mention 1e100 times more efficient. after all i can type 60 wpm, i cant
click nearly that efficently or as fast.

so anyways, i know that if recovery console can do it, so can i. the only question
is basically aside from the obvious “how” but on to the more elusive “what would this
involve losing in APIs and features”

asa

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 12:46 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Unfortunately, this is totally impossible right now. NT and Win32 are
fairly married. Unlike UNIX/Linux, a lot of essential functions in NT
are dependent on the Win32 subsystem.

As I understand it, there is actually some on-going work to make some
future version of Windows server work headlessly, and work well
headlessly. But until then, NT would require a fair amount of
modification in order to do what you want. The minimal text-mode boot
OS of the kernel is only supported for installations and the emergency
recovery console, and nothing else, right now.

There are some reasons to want to do this, for minimal server installs,
etc. However, do you have any specific scenario you want to achieve?
Or is this just a “I-wish-it-worked-that-way” sort of question? (I’ve
wished it worked that way, at times, too.)

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:19 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

i have a driver question.
im working on making a command line interface for windows like unix and
linux have. as you know those operating systems boot in to character
mode. windows NT as ive been able to get it has some sort of character
mode at boot up. is it possible to continue this character mode into
some custom-written usermode component.

basically what i am trying to get at, is it possible to load win32 and
stuff, yet be able to ‘alt+tab’ or something out of the GUI
win32 mode and into a character mode display that would be either the
standard cmd.exe or a custom written, native-mode component.

if anyone has any ideas on this totally far-fetch pipe-dream ( :stuck_out_tongue: ) of
making windows, well, not ‘windows-ish’ id appreciate it. thanks for
your time gentlemen

asa

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

22

Actually, Win2k3 runs fine headless. You can do a complete install, boot
and run without a display.

Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting

----- Original Message -----
From: “Arlie Davis”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:45 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

> Unfortunately, this is totally impossible right now. NT and Win32 are
> fairly married. Unlike UNIX/Linux, a lot of essential functions in NT
> are dependent on the Win32 subsystem.
>
> As I understand it, there is actually some on-going work to make some
> future version of Windows server work headlessly, and work well
> headlessly. But until then, NT would require a fair amount of
> modification in order to do what you want. The minimal text-mode boot
> OS of the kernel is only supported for installations and the emergency
> recovery console, and nothing else, right now.
>
> There are some reasons to want to do this, for minimal server installs,
> etc. However, do you have any specific scenario you want to achieve?
> Or is this just a “I-wish-it-worked-that-way” sort of question? (I’ve
> wished it worked that way, at times, too.)
>
> – arlie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:19 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
>
>
> i have a driver question.
> im working on making a command line interface for windows like unix and
> linux have. as you know those operating systems boot in to character
> mode. windows NT as ive been able to get it has some sort of character
> mode at boot up. is it possible to continue this character mode into
> some custom-written usermode component.
>
> basically what i am trying to get at, is it possible to load win32 and
> stuff, yet be able to ‘alt+tab’ or something out of the GUI
> win32 mode and into a character mode display that would be either the
> standard cmd.exe or a custom written, native-mode component.
>
> if anyone has any ideas on this totally far-fetch pipe-dream ( :stuck_out_tongue: ) of
> making windows, well, not ‘windows-ish’ id appreciate it. thanks for
> your time gentlemen
>
> asa
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

23

You would be loosing just about everything, since I believe recovery console
is a native mode application. See
http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/info/native.shtml for a simple example
native program. An get Gary Nebbetts book “Windows NT/2000 Native API
Reference” for a look at the API you would need to program to. Basically,
you will need to write a complete utility set yourself.

Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting

----- Original Message -----
From: “Asa Yeamans”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 3:34 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

well, this is more or less a sort of test of my abilities. to see if i
have the resources cabable of doing such a thing. from what ive researched
they are pretty intertwined and it wouldnt be trival at all. eventually
i plan to find a use for it somehow…


ever since i was like 5 and playing in dos ive always loved the white on
black or whatever colors i was messsing with at the time. its always easier
for me to read so i guess a sort of accesiblity, less distracting interface.
not to mention 1e100 times more efficient. after all i can type 60 wpm, i
cant
click nearly that efficently or as fast.


so anyways, i know that if recovery console can do it, so can i. the only
question
is basically aside from the obvious “how” but on to the more elusive “what
would this
involve losing in APIs and features”

asa

24

Yeah, I’m aware of this, but I’m just not happy with it yet. The base
OS works fine headless, but there are sooo many things that are
difficult, annoying, or impossible to do without the GUI. This is all
because NT was developed and released with the assumption that the GUI
is always present and available. The command-line tools for NT are
simply not on par with those of UNIX yet. I think Microsoft finally
realizes that it is important to have a good CLI (for remote
manageability, etc.), and they are working to address this, but it just
isn’t sufficient yet.

For a start, I wish NT had a real command line shell. CMD.EXE is just a
wreck, compared to bash. (And bash has its own problems – but it has
much better syntax, operators, conditionals, variable handling,
definable functions, etc.)

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:09 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Actually, Win2k3 runs fine headless. You can do a complete install,
boot and run without a display.

Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting

----- Original Message -----
From: “Arlie Davis”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:45 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

> Unfortunately, this is totally impossible right now. NT and Win32 are

> fairly married. Unlike UNIX/Linux, a lot of essential functions in NT

> are dependent on the Win32 subsystem.
>
> As I understand it, there is actually some on-going work to make some
> future version of Windows server work headlessly, and work well
> headlessly. But until then, NT would require a fair amount of
> modification in order to do what you want. The minimal text-mode boot

> OS of the kernel is only supported for installations and the emergency

> recovery console, and nothing else, right now.
>
> There are some reasons to want to do this, for minimal server
> installs, etc. However, do you have any specific scenario you want to

> achieve? Or is this just a “I-wish-it-worked-that-way” sort of
> question? (I’ve wished it worked that way, at times, too.)
>
> – arlie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:19 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
>
>
> i have a driver question.
> im working on making a command line interface for windows like unix
> and linux have. as you know those operating systems boot in to
> character mode. windows NT as ive been able to get it has some sort of

> character mode at boot up. is it possible to continue this character
> mode into some custom-written usermode component.
>
> basically what i am trying to get at, is it possible to load win32 and

> stuff, yet be able to ‘alt+tab’ or something out of the GUI win32 mode

> and into a character mode display that would be either the standard
> cmd.exe or a custom written, native-mode component.
>
> if anyone has any ideas on this totally far-fetch pipe-dream ( :stuck_out_tongue: ) of

> making windows, well, not ‘windows-ish’ id appreciate it. thanks for
> your time gentlemen
>
> asa
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

25

> You should see windowsxxxx (PNP, LDM, storage stack -

all this are so buggy and full of race conditions that

Nonsense.

you can’t implement anything on top, always have to
reboot - is this an enterprise OS???)

Surely, if you want to alter the behaviour of the volume where SystemRoot
resides - this requires a reboot.

Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

26

Cygwin is junk. Their fork() is really memcpy() of all address space,
instead of using the native NT’s fork() facility embedded to NtCreateProcess.

Interix is better.

Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

----- Original Message -----
From: “Brad R”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 9:58 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

> Couldn’t this just be done outside of the driver?
>
> You could just have an application running full-screen that is
> running your own app. If you want it to look like a *nix then
> using Cygwin would probably be your best bet (www.cygwin.org)
> which is basically a bunch of Windows Utils to make it look
> like *nix.
>
> Unless of course you’re wanting to have basically Windows boot
> up into a text mode and be able to start the Windows GUI similar
> to startX. In that sense I have no clue at all.
>
> Either way, I think Cygwin would be good to look at especially
> if you want to mimic a *nix.
>
> Regards,
> Brad.
>
> On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 12:19:00AM -0600, Asa Yeamans wrote:
> > i have a driver question.
> > im working on making a command line interface for windows like
> > unix and linux have. as you know those operating systems boot in
> > to character mode. windows NT as ive been able to get it has some
> > sort of character mode at boot up. is it possible to continue
> > this character mode into some custom-written usermode component.
> >
> > basically what i am trying to get at, is it possible to load win32
> > and stuff, yet be able to ‘alt+tab’ or something out of the GUI
> > win32 mode and into a character mode display that would be either
> > the standard cmd.exe or a custom written, native-mode component.
> >
> > if anyone has any ideas on this totally far-fetch pipe-dream ( :stuck_out_tongue: )
> > of making windows, well, not ‘windows-ish’ id appreciate it.
> > thanks for your time gentlemen
> >
> > asa
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
> > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 8:29 PM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
> >
> >
> > Jesus christ, I’m not arguing about OPERATING SYSTEM QUALITY. I said
> > that UNIX/Linux DEBUGGERS have, IN MY EXPERIENCE, been CRAP.
> >
> > EVERYTHING HAS BUGS. I’m not here to piss on Linux. I’ve done
> > professional development under NT AND Linux (& BSD & etc.) for years and
> > years – they all have varying levels of quality. EVERYTHING HAS BUGS
> > – and debuggers are an essential tool for finding and fixing them. IN
> > MY EXPERIENCE, I’ve never seen a good debugger for UNIX. gdb is crap.
> > YOUR experience, necessarily!, is different.
> >
> > Gahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I’m sick of this shit! Someone ask a question about
> > developing NT device drivers, before I lose my fucking mind.
> >
> > – arlie
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Radu V
> > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 7:49 PM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
> >
> >
> > arlie,
> >
> > You should see windowsxxxx (PNP, LDM, storage stack -
> > all this are so buggy and full of race conditions that
> > you can’t implement anything on top, always have to
> > reboot - is this an enterprise OS???)
> > and then talk about UNIX’es.
> >
> > Radu.
> >
> > — Arlie Davis wrote:
> > > Not enough market? How can there be not enough
> > > market? Linux runs on
> > > millions of machines. Debugging under UNIX/Linux
> > > has always been crap.
> > > Maybe that’s why a lot of the code running in and on UNIX/Linux is
> > > crap.
> > >
> > > – arlie
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Ilya Lifshits
> > > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 9:05 AM
> > > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > > Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I don’t think that Numega ask for Bill Gates opinion
> > > on the subject
> > > while
> > > write Softice :slight_smile: It’s just not enough marker for
> > > this yet. But since
> > > Linux
> > > market is growing we can expect that something
> > > commercial will pop up
> > > in
> > > the future.Beside, there is kernel patches to allow
> > > debugging kernel
> > > with
> > > gdb or any gdb front end.
> > >
> > > Ilya.
> > >
> > > At 07:46 AM 12/12/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> > > >Well Bubba, maybe because the chief architect of
> > > Linux doesn’t believe
> > > >in
> > > >debuggers and contends that debuggers are not
> > > needed. At least that’s
> > > what
> > > >I have heard discussed and bantered about.
> > > >
> > > >–
> > > >Gary G. Little
> > > >Seagate Technologies, LLC
> > > >“Li Dong”
> > >
> > <mailto:xxxxxxxxxx@i2r.a-star.edu.sg>
> > > >wrote in message
> > > news:xxxxxnews:xxxxx@ntdev…
> > > >Hi everyone,
> > > >
> > > >I think I already got used to SoftICE for debugging
> > > in Windows.
> > > >Recently,
> > > >boss asked me to write some drivers for Linux. Gee!
> > > “printk()” is the
> > > only
> > > >useful and beatiful thing that I can use.
> > > >
> > > >Why there is nobody write a debugging tool like
> > > SoftICE in linux
> > > >system?
> > > >Is it very hard to do or Is it impossible to do?
> > > >
> > > >Thanks and regards
> > > >elton
> > > >
> > > >—
> > > >Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > >http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > > >
> > > >You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > xxxxx@jungo.com
> > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> > > xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > >
> > >
> > > —
> > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > >
> > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > xxxxx@sublinear.org To
> > > unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > >
> > >
> > > —
> > > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> > >
> > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as:
> > > xxxxx@yahoo.com
> > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> > xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> > http://photos.yahoo.com/
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
> > http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
> > unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@jedacite.dyndns.org
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@storagecraft.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com</news:xxxxx></mailto:xxxxx>

27

I was kind of thinking that like i could run some sort of code at startup
before win32k.sys loads. because if what ive read is correct, smss loads
the subsystems specified in the registry as req’d like win32. therefore it
executes csrss with that really long command line string. csrss then loads
win32k.sys which loads the windowing and GDI interfaces into the kernel
and then csrss does the traditional gui mode for us all. i was thinking
that maybe i could somehow manipulate csrss and smss to only load the
so that what i ultimatly get is a command prompt, but one that has portions
of win32 loaded so that i can still use the majority of the functionality
in windows NT. if possible, id like to have it so that at some ‘magic’
key press, i exit out of the gui and am presented with a nice command prompt.
any ideas on how i could go about implementing this? any guys here care to
offer insight as to how csrss, smss, and win32k.sys interact to provide
the win32 api’s as well as how to create my own character mode NT prompt.

asa

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:46 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Yeah, I’m aware of this, but I’m just not happy with it yet. The base
OS works fine headless, but there are sooo many things that are
difficult, annoying, or impossible to do without the GUI. This is all
because NT was developed and released with the assumption that the GUI
is always present and available. The command-line tools for NT are
simply not on par with those of UNIX yet. I think Microsoft finally
realizes that it is important to have a good CLI (for remote
manageability, etc.), and they are working to address this, but it just
isn’t sufficient yet.

For a start, I wish NT had a real command line shell. CMD.EXE is just a
wreck, compared to bash. (And bash has its own problems – but it has
much better syntax, operators, conditionals, variable handling,
definable functions, etc.)

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:09 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Actually, Win2k3 runs fine headless. You can do a complete install,
boot and run without a display.

Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting

----- Original Message -----
From: “Arlie Davis”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:45 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

> Unfortunately, this is totally impossible right now. NT and Win32 are

> fairly married. Unlike UNIX/Linux, a lot of essential functions in NT

> are dependent on the Win32 subsystem.
>
> As I understand it, there is actually some on-going work to make some
> future version of Windows server work headlessly, and work well
> headlessly. But until then, NT would require a fair amount of
> modification in order to do what you want. The minimal text-mode boot

> OS of the kernel is only supported for installations and the emergency

> recovery console, and nothing else, right now.
>
> There are some reasons to want to do this, for minimal server
> installs, etc. However, do you have any specific scenario you want to

> achieve? Or is this just a “I-wish-it-worked-that-way” sort of
> question? (I’ve wished it worked that way, at times, too.)
>
> – arlie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:19 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
>
>
> i have a driver question.
> im working on making a command line interface for windows like unix
> and linux have. as you know those operating systems boot in to
> character mode. windows NT as ive been able to get it has some sort of

> character mode at boot up. is it possible to continue this character
> mode into some custom-written usermode component.
>
> basically what i am trying to get at, is it possible to load win32 and

> stuff, yet be able to ‘alt+tab’ or something out of the GUI win32 mode

> and into a character mode display that would be either the standard
> cmd.exe or a custom written, native-mode component.
>
> if anyone has any ideas on this totally far-fetch pipe-dream ( :stuck_out_tongue: ) of

> making windows, well, not ‘windows-ish’ id appreciate it. thanks for
> your time gentlemen
>
> asa
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

28

Uhhhh, no. It just won’t work. The only configurations that do
anything like this are setup and the recovery console. Both of these
are extremely specialized environments – each runs basically a single
application. They make use of only a tiny subset of the NT OS.

Win32 is not optional. win32k.sys and CSRSS are essential system
components, and NT as we know it cannot exist without them.

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 1:59 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

I was kind of thinking that like i could run some sort of code at
startup before win32k.sys loads. because if what ive read is correct,
smss loads the subsystems specified in the registry as req’d like win32.
therefore it executes csrss with that really long command line string.
csrss then loads
win32k.sys which loads the windowing and GDI interfaces into the kernel
and then csrss does the traditional gui mode for us all. i was thinking
that maybe i could somehow manipulate csrss and smss to only load the so
that what i ultimatly get is a command prompt, but one that has portions
of win32 loaded so that i can still use the majority of the
functionality in windows NT. if possible, id like to have it so that at
some ‘magic’
key press, i exit out of the gui and am presented with a nice command
prompt. any ideas on how i could go about implementing this? any guys
here care to
offer insight as to how csrss, smss, and win32k.sys interact to provide
the win32 api’s as well as how to create my own character mode NT
prompt.

asa

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:46 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Yeah, I’m aware of this, but I’m just not happy with it yet. The base
OS works fine headless, but there are sooo many things that are
difficult, annoying, or impossible to do without the GUI. This is all
because NT was developed and released with the assumption that the GUI
is always present and available. The command-line tools for NT are
simply not on par with those of UNIX yet. I think Microsoft finally
realizes that it is important to have a good CLI (for remote
manageability, etc.), and they are working to address this, but it just
isn’t sufficient yet.

For a start, I wish NT had a real command line shell. CMD.EXE is just a
wreck, compared to bash. (And bash has its own problems – but it has
much better syntax, operators, conditionals, variable handling,
definable functions, etc.)

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:09 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Actually, Win2k3 runs fine headless. You can do a complete install,
boot and run without a display.

Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting

----- Original Message -----
From: “Arlie Davis”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:45 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

> Unfortunately, this is totally impossible right now. NT and Win32 are

> fairly married. Unlike UNIX/Linux, a lot of essential functions in NT

> are dependent on the Win32 subsystem.
>
> As I understand it, there is actually some on-going work to make some
> future version of Windows server work headlessly, and work well
> headlessly. But until then, NT would require a fair amount of
> modification in order to do what you want. The minimal text-mode boot

> OS of the kernel is only supported for installations and the emergency

> recovery console, and nothing else, right now.
>
> There are some reasons to want to do this, for minimal server
> installs, etc. However, do you have any specific scenario you want to

> achieve? Or is this just a “I-wish-it-worked-that-way” sort of
> question? (I’ve wished it worked that way, at times, too.)
>
> – arlie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:19 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
>
>
> i have a driver question.
> im working on making a command line interface for windows like unix
> and linux have. as you know those operating systems boot in to
> character mode. windows NT as ive been able to get it has some sort of

> character mode at boot up. is it possible to continue this character
> mode into some custom-written usermode component.
>
> basically what i am trying to get at, is it possible to load win32 and

> stuff, yet be able to ‘alt+tab’ or something out of the GUI win32 mode

> and into a character mode display that would be either the standard
> cmd.exe or a custom written, native-mode component.
>
> if anyone has any ideas on this totally far-fetch pipe-dream ( :stuck_out_tongue: ) of

> making windows, well, not ‘windows-ish’ id appreciate it. thanks for
> your time gentlemen
>
> asa
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

29

what about co-existing with them? would it be possible to load some
sort of binary, either a native mode BootStartup program run by SMSS
or a driver, that would allow winnt to load as normal, yet like i said
at a ‘magic key combination’, switch out to a command prompt?

asa

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 10:46 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Uhhhh, no. It just won’t work. The only configurations that do
anything like this are setup and the recovery console. Both of these
are extremely specialized environments – each runs basically a single
application. They make use of only a tiny subset of the NT OS.

Win32 is not optional. win32k.sys and CSRSS are essential system
components, and NT as we know it cannot exist without them.

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 1:59 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

I was kind of thinking that like i could run some sort of code at
startup before win32k.sys loads. because if what ive read is correct,
smss loads the subsystems specified in the registry as req’d like win32.
therefore it executes csrss with that really long command line string.
csrss then loads
win32k.sys which loads the windowing and GDI interfaces into the kernel
and then csrss does the traditional gui mode for us all. i was thinking
that maybe i could somehow manipulate csrss and smss to only load the so
that what i ultimatly get is a command prompt, but one that has portions
of win32 loaded so that i can still use the majority of the
functionality in windows NT. if possible, id like to have it so that at
some ‘magic’
key press, i exit out of the gui and am presented with a nice command
prompt. any ideas on how i could go about implementing this? any guys
here care to
offer insight as to how csrss, smss, and win32k.sys interact to provide
the win32 api’s as well as how to create my own character mode NT
prompt.

asa

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:46 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Yeah, I’m aware of this, but I’m just not happy with it yet. The base
OS works fine headless, but there are sooo many things that are
difficult, annoying, or impossible to do without the GUI. This is all
because NT was developed and released with the assumption that the GUI
is always present and available. The command-line tools for NT are
simply not on par with those of UNIX yet. I think Microsoft finally
realizes that it is important to have a good CLI (for remote
manageability, etc.), and they are working to address this, but it just
isn’t sufficient yet.

For a start, I wish NT had a real command line shell. CMD.EXE is just a
wreck, compared to bash. (And bash has its own problems – but it has
much better syntax, operators, conditionals, variable handling,
definable functions, etc.)

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:09 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Actually, Win2k3 runs fine headless. You can do a complete install,
boot and run without a display.

Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting

----- Original Message -----
From: “Arlie Davis”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:45 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

> Unfortunately, this is totally impossible right now. NT and Win32 are

> fairly married. Unlike UNIX/Linux, a lot of essential functions in NT

> are dependent on the Win32 subsystem.
>
> As I understand it, there is actually some on-going work to make some
> future version of Windows server work headlessly, and work well
> headlessly. But until then, NT would require a fair amount of
> modification in order to do what you want. The minimal text-mode boot

> OS of the kernel is only supported for installations and the emergency

> recovery console, and nothing else, right now.
>
> There are some reasons to want to do this, for minimal server
> installs, etc. However, do you have any specific scenario you want to

> achieve? Or is this just a “I-wish-it-worked-that-way” sort of
> question? (I’ve wished it worked that way, at times, too.)
>
> – arlie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:19 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
>
>
> i have a driver question.
> im working on making a command line interface for windows like unix
> and linux have. as you know those operating systems boot in to
> character mode. windows NT as ive been able to get it has some sort of

> character mode at boot up. is it possible to continue this character
> mode into some custom-written usermode component.
>
> basically what i am trying to get at, is it possible to load win32 and

> stuff, yet be able to ‘alt+tab’ or something out of the GUI win32 mode

> and into a character mode display that would be either the standard
> cmd.exe or a custom written, native-mode component.
>
> if anyone has any ideas on this totally far-fetch pipe-dream ( :stuck_out_tongue: ) of

> making windows, well, not ‘windows-ish’ id appreciate it. thanks for
> your time gentlemen
>
> asa
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

30

run cmd.exe
hit control-enter

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:50 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

what about co-existing with them? would it be possible to load some sort
of binary, either a native mode BootStartup program run by SMSS or a
driver, that would allow winnt to load as normal, yet like i said at a
‘magic key combination’, switch out to a command prompt?

asa

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 10:46 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Uhhhh, no. It just won’t work. The only configurations that do
anything like this are setup and the recovery console. Both of these
are extremely specialized environments – each runs basically a single
application. They make use of only a tiny subset of the NT OS.

Win32 is not optional. win32k.sys and CSRSS are essential system
components, and NT as we know it cannot exist without them.

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 1:59 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

I was kind of thinking that like i could run some sort of code at
startup before win32k.sys loads. because if what ive read is correct,
smss loads the subsystems specified in the registry as req’d like win32.
therefore it executes csrss with that really long command line string.
csrss then loads
win32k.sys which loads the windowing and GDI interfaces into the kernel
and then csrss does the traditional gui mode for us all. i was thinking
that maybe i could somehow manipulate csrss and smss to only load the so
that what i ultimatly get is a command prompt, but one that has portions
of win32 loaded so that i can still use the majority of the
functionality in windows NT. if possible, id like to have it so that at
some ‘magic’
key press, i exit out of the gui and am presented with a nice command
prompt. any ideas on how i could go about implementing this? any guys
here care to
offer insight as to how csrss, smss, and win32k.sys interact to provide
the win32 api’s as well as how to create my own character mode NT
prompt.

asa

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:46 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Yeah, I’m aware of this, but I’m just not happy with it yet. The base
OS works fine headless, but there are sooo many things that are
difficult, annoying, or impossible to do without the GUI. This is all
because NT was developed and released with the assumption that the GUI
is always present and available. The command-line tools for NT are
simply not on par with those of UNIX yet. I think Microsoft finally
realizes that it is important to have a good CLI (for remote
manageability, etc.), and they are working to address this, but it just
isn’t sufficient yet.

For a start, I wish NT had a real command line shell. CMD.EXE is just a
wreck, compared to bash. (And bash has its own problems – but it has
much better syntax, operators, conditionals, variable handling,
definable functions, etc.)

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:09 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Actually, Win2k3 runs fine headless. You can do a complete install,
boot and run without a display.

Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting

----- Original Message -----
From: “Arlie Davis”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:45 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

> Unfortunately, this is totally impossible right now. NT and Win32 are

> fairly married. Unlike UNIX/Linux, a lot of essential functions in NT

> are dependent on the Win32 subsystem.
>
> As I understand it, there is actually some on-going work to make some
> future version of Windows server work headlessly, and work well
> headlessly. But until then, NT would require a fair amount of
> modification in order to do what you want. The minimal text-mode boot

> OS of the kernel is only supported for installations and the emergency

> recovery console, and nothing else, right now.
>
> There are some reasons to want to do this, for minimal server
> installs, etc. However, do you have any specific scenario you want to

> achieve? Or is this just a “I-wish-it-worked-that-way” sort of
> question? (I’ve wished it worked that way, at times, too.)
>
> – arlie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:19 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
>
>
> i have a driver question.
> im working on making a command line interface for windows like unix
> and linux have. as you know those operating systems boot in to
> character mode. windows NT as ive been able to get it has some sort of

> character mode at boot up. is it possible to continue this character
> mode into some custom-written usermode component.
>
> basically what i am trying to get at, is it possible to load win32 and

> stuff, yet be able to ‘alt+tab’ or something out of the GUI win32 mode

> and into a character mode display that would be either the standard
> cmd.exe or a custom written, native-mode component.
>
> if anyone has any ideas on this totally far-fetch pipe-dream ( :stuck_out_tongue: ) of

> making windows, well, not ‘windows-ish’ id appreciate it. thanks for
> your time gentlemen
>
> asa
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

—
Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

31

make it

run cmd.exe
hit alt-enter

George Blat

At 11:11 AM 12/14/2003, you wrote:

run cmd.exe
hit control-enter

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:50 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

what about co-existing with them? would it be possible to load some sort
of binary, either a native mode BootStartup program run by SMSS or a
driver, that would allow winnt to load as normal, yet like i said at a
‘magic key combination’, switch out to a command prompt?

asa

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 10:46 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Uhhhh, no. It just won’t work. The only configurations that do
anything like this are setup and the recovery console. Both of these
are extremely specialized environments – each runs basically a single
application. They make use of only a tiny subset of the NT OS.

Win32 is not optional. win32k.sys and CSRSS are essential system
components, and NT as we know it cannot exist without them.

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 1:59 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

I was kind of thinking that like i could run some sort of code at
startup before win32k.sys loads. because if what ive read is correct,
smss loads the subsystems specified in the registry as req’d like win32.
therefore it executes csrss with that really long command line string.
csrss then loads
win32k.sys which loads the windowing and GDI interfaces into the kernel
and then csrss does the traditional gui mode for us all. i was thinking
that maybe i could somehow manipulate csrss and smss to only load the so
that what i ultimatly get is a command prompt, but one that has portions
of win32 loaded so that i can still use the majority of the
functionality in windows NT. if possible, id like to have it so that at
some ‘magic’
key press, i exit out of the gui and am presented with a nice command
prompt. any ideas on how i could go about implementing this? any guys
here care to
offer insight as to how csrss, smss, and win32k.sys interact to provide
the win32 api’s as well as how to create my own character mode NT
prompt.

asa

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:46 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Yeah, I’m aware of this, but I’m just not happy with it yet. The base
OS works fine headless, but there are sooo many things that are
difficult, annoying, or impossible to do without the GUI. This is all
because NT was developed and released with the assumption that the GUI
is always present and available. The command-line tools for NT are
simply not on par with those of UNIX yet. I think Microsoft finally
realizes that it is important to have a good CLI (for remote
manageability, etc.), and they are working to address this, but it just
isn’t sufficient yet.

For a start, I wish NT had a real command line shell. CMD.EXE is just a
wreck, compared to bash. (And bash has its own problems – but it has
much better syntax, operators, conditionals, variable handling,
definable functions, etc.)

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:09 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Actually, Win2k3 runs fine headless. You can do a complete install,
boot and run without a display.

Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting

----- Original Message -----
From: “Arlie Davis”
>To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
>Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:45 AM
>Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
>
>
> > Unfortunately, this is totally impossible right now. NT and Win32 are
>
> > fairly married. Unlike UNIX/Linux, a lot of essential functions in NT
>
> > are dependent on the Win32 subsystem.
> >
> > As I understand it, there is actually some on-going work to make some
> > future version of Windows server work headlessly, and work well
> > headlessly. But until then, NT would require a fair amount of
> > modification in order to do what you want. The minimal text-mode boot
>
> > OS of the kernel is only supported for installations and the emergency
>
> > recovery console, and nothing else, right now.
> >
> > There are some reasons to want to do this, for minimal server
> > installs, etc. However, do you have any specific scenario you want to
>
> > achieve? Or is this just a “I-wish-it-worked-that-way” sort of
> > question? (I’ve wished it worked that way, at times, too.)
> >
> > – arlie
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> > [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Asa Yeamans
> > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:19 AM
> > To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> > Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
> >
> >
> > i have a driver question.
> > im working on making a command line interface for windows like unix
> > and linux have. as you know those operating systems boot in to
> > character mode. windows NT as ive been able to get it has some sort of
>
> > character mode at boot up. is it possible to continue this character
> > mode into some custom-written usermode component.
> >
> > basically what i am trying to get at, is it possible to load win32 and
>
> > stuff, yet be able to ‘alt+tab’ or something out of the GUI win32 mode
>
> > and into a character mode display that would be either the standard
> > cmd.exe or a custom written, native-mode component.
> >
> > if anyone has any ideas on this totally far-fetch pipe-dream ( :stuck_out_tongue: ) of
>
> > making windows, well, not ‘windows-ish’ id appreciate it. thanks for
> > your time gentlemen
> >
> > asa
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@acm.org
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> >
>
>
>—
>Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
>unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>
>—
>Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net To
>unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>—
>Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
>unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>
>—
>Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net To
>unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>—
>Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
>unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
>
>—
>Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
>http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
>You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@ntrealtime.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

32

right, right… long time since i’ve had to do that!

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of George Blat
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 4:56 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

make it

run cmd.exe
hit alt-enter

George Blat

At 11:11 AM 12/14/2003, you wrote:

run cmd.exe
hit control-enter

33

well, anyways, does anyone know if there is any information anywhere on
the internet that explains the interactions between csrss.exe, basesrv.dll
winsrv.dll, and csrsrv.dll ? or is that not listed anywhere?
thanks for y’alls help
asa

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 4:19 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

right, right… long time since i’ve had to do that!

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of George Blat
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 4:56 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

make it

run cmd.exe
hit alt-enter

George Blat

At 11:11 AM 12/14/2003, you wrote:

run cmd.exe
hit control-enter

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net
To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

34

Command-line window support I think.

Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

----- Original Message -----
From: “Asa Yeamans”
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:50 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

> well, anyways, does anyone know if there is any information anywhere on
> the internet that explains the interactions between csrss.exe, basesrv.dll
> winsrv.dll, and csrsrv.dll ? or is that not listed anywhere?
> thanks for y’alls help
> asa
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Arlie Davis
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 4:19 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
>
>
> right, right… long time since i’ve had to do that!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of George Blat
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 4:56 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux
>
>
> make it
>
> run cmd.exe
> hit alt-enter
>
> George Blat
>
> At 11:11 AM 12/14/2003, you wrote:
> >run cmd.exe
> >hit control-enter
> >
> >
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rivin.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@storagecraft.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

35

“Maxim S. Shatskih” wrote in news:xxxxx@ntdev:
>
> Cygwin is junk. Their fork() is really memcpy() of all address space,
> instead of using the native NT’s fork() facility embedded to
> NtCreateProcess.
>
> Interix is better.
>
> Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
> StorageCraft Corporation
> xxxxx@storagecraft.com
> http://www.storagecraft.com

A typical unsubstantiated flame-bait opinion that I cannot let slide.

Cygwin is not junk - it provides a useful set of tools for peiople to get
real work done, on Win9x and WinNT class systems. It has a complex
implementation of fork() precisely because it works on all of those
platforms.

Interix is not better or worse - it is designed to run on a smaller set of
platforms, and cannot match Cygwin for price. Each has its merits.

When you offer a replacement for Cygwin’s fork() that runs on Win9x and
WinNT class systems, I’m sure they’d be happy to accept a patch. Until then
I suggest you keep such ridiculous opinions to yourself.

AndyM

36

Max is right, Cygwin is a junk.

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: “Andy Moreton”
Newsgroups: ntdev
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 1:26 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

> “Maxim S. Shatskih” wrote in news:xxxxx@ntdev:
> >
> > Cygwin is junk. Their fork() is really memcpy() of all address space,
> > instead of using the native NT’s fork() facility embedded to
> > NtCreateProcess.
> >
> > Interix is better.
> >
> > Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
> > StorageCraft Corporation
> > xxxxx@storagecraft.com
> > http://www.storagecraft.com
>
> A typical unsubstantiated flame-bait opinion that I cannot let slide.
>
> Cygwin is not junk - it provides a useful set of tools for peiople to get
> real work done, on Win9x and WinNT class systems. It has a complex
> implementation of fork() precisely because it works on all of those
> platforms.
>
> Interix is not better or worse - it is designed to run on a smaller set of
> platforms, and cannot match Cygwin for price. Each has its merits.
>
> When you offer a replacement for Cygwin’s fork() that runs on Win9x and
> WinNT class systems, I’m sure they’d be happy to accept a patch. Until
then
> I suggest you keep such ridiculous opinions to yourself.
>
> AndyM
>
>
>
> —
> Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256
>
> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@rdsor.ro
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com
>

37

Maybe I’m missing the big picture, but if we’re talking “headless,” we mean no
physical monitor, mouse, keyboard. But why won’t Terminal Services suffice for a
remote desktop, with full GUI? Or is “headless” taken to mean no NIC?

Arlie Davis wrote:

Yeah, I’m aware of this, but I’m just not happy with it yet. The base
OS works fine headless, but there are sooo many things that are
difficult, annoying, or impossible to do without the GUI. This is all
because NT was developed and released with the assumption that the GUI
is always present and available.

–
If replying by e-mail, please remove “nospam.” from the address.

James Antognini
Windows DDK MVP

38

Terminal services connections require a lot of bandwidth and are very
latency-sensitive. I can connect to a UNIX/whatever box over ssh or
telnet, and do 99% of all administration I need with a command-line.
This is far faster and cheaper than a TS connection. And if the server
you’re trying to administer is over a relatively high-latency link, TS
becomes excruciatingly slow. (Anything over ~200ms is just a joke.)
But ssh is still quite usable.

I know NT has a telnet service these days. But it just isn’t good
enough yet. The command-line tools are crude and inconsistent –
inconsistent even by UNIX standards! There is no job control, no good
text-mode editor, etc. All of this needs to be addressed, in order for
NT to compete effectively against UNIX.

Don’t get me wrong – I like a lot of the ways that NT works, as far as
administration goes. I’d rather have a good GUI admin app than be
editing /etc/foorc. But by the same token, I’d rather just back up (or
replicate) /etc than deal with some of the hoops we have in NT land.

– arlie

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of James Antognini
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 12:39 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: SoftICE & Linux

Maybe I’m missing the big picture, but if we’re talking “headless,” we
mean no physical monitor, mouse, keyboard. But why won’t Terminal
Services suffice for a remote desktop, with full GUI? Or is “headless”
taken to mean no NIC?

Arlie Davis wrote:

Yeah, I’m aware of this, but I’m just not happy with it yet. The base

OS works fine headless, but there are sooo many things that are
difficult, annoying, or impossible to do without the GUI. This is all

because NT was developed and released with the assumption that the GUI

is always present and available.

–
If replying by e-mail, please remove “nospam.” from the address.

James Antognini
Windows DDK MVP

Questions? First check the Kernel Driver FAQ at
http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=256

You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxxxx@sublinear.org To
unsubscribe send a blank email to xxxxx@lists.osr.com

39

I tend to disregard low-bandwidth situations. Back when I was employed at IBM, I
could use VPN to get to my office desktop via Terminal Services and it worked
well, in terms of response. What often broke was the connection. But I would
think a telnet connection would have had the same problem.

But there may be other common cases where bandwidth is a problem. So supporting
low bandwidth is one requirement.

Another requirement is a text-mode interface. This is handy for batch
operations, scripts and such. I can see the sense in this. In fact, I disagree
strongly with GUI-only solutions: A proper interface should be workable with
scripting and batch languages.

Arlie Davis wrote:

Terminal services connections require a lot of bandwidth and are very
latency-sensitive. I can connect to a UNIX/whatever box over ssh or
telnet, and do 99% of all administration I need with a command-line.
This is far faster and cheaper than a TS connection. And if the server
you’re trying to administer is over a relatively high-latency link, TS
becomes excruciatingly slow. (Anything over ~200ms is just a joke.)
But ssh is still quite usable.

I know NT has a telnet service these days. But it just isn’t good
enough yet. The command-line tools are crude and inconsistent –
inconsistent even by UNIX standards! There is no job control, no good
text-mode editor, etc. All of this needs to be addressed, in order for
NT to compete effectively against UNIX.

–
If replying by e-mail, please remove “nospam.” from the address.

James Antognini
Windows DDK MVP

40

> When you offer a replacement for Cygwin’s fork() that runs on Win9x and

WinNT class systems, I’m sure they’d be happy to accept a patch. Until then

Who cares Win9x, this obsolete piece of crap?

Cygwin’s target audience are IT professionals, and they hate these under-OSes
for years.

As about the patch - Cygnus was suggested to do this by several people (myself
included) as early as in 1999, and the horse is still there :slight_smile:

Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com