An alternative to visual source safe version 6

NTDEV
21

> ----------

From: xxxxx@storagecraft.com[SMTP:xxxxx@storagecraft.com]
Reply To: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 8:50 PM
To: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

IIRC Microsoft uses VSS internally, though they had other source control
called SLM in the past.

I don’t think so, can you image it? Instead, I have heard they use something
named Source Depot and have heard rumors it was an old name for Perforce.

Best regards,

Michal Vodicka
STMicroelectronics Design and Application s.r.o.
[michal.vodicka@st.com, http:://www.st.com]

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22

I’ve also heard that Microsoft uses a product called Source Depot, which
sounds suspiciously like Perforce. Like you, I can’t imagine a project the
size of Windows XP in VSS!

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Peter Viscarola
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 2:39 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

“Maxim S. Shatskih” wrote in message
news:xxxxx@ntdev…
>
> IIRC Microsoft uses VSS internally, though they had other source control
called SLM in the past.
>

Could you imagine NT in VSS? The mind staggers.

Microsoft may use VSS for small projects. They use a custom solution for
source code management called “SD”.

Peter
OSR

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I think it should be added that TortoiseCVS (http://www.cvsgui.org/TortoiseCVS/index.shtml) is an excellent Windows interface to CVS.

I used WinCVS for a while, and really grew to hate it. Another SourceForge developer mentioned TortoiseCVS, and I thought it was fantastic. I’d recommend anyway who normally uses WinCVS to take a look at it.

-b

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24

> > IIRC Microsoft uses VSS internally, though they had other source control

> called SLM in the past.
>
I don’t think so, can you image it?

Why not, if they use a separate database for each large project?

Max

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BTW - maybe somebody can list the real advantages of Perforce over SourceOffSite?
Otherwise, the “it’s just more serious” phrase is meaningless, and the Perforce’s drawback is worse speed on weak connections.
Also - what are the VSS’s drawbacks except being unstable on huge databases?
Peter said he cannot imagine NT on VSS. But what namely VSS’ functionality is bad? What things are missing from VSS?
Yes, it just cannot work over slow link since it is not client-server and uses SMB - but there is SOS to solve it.

Max

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian McFadden
To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

I think it should be added that TortoiseCVS (http://www.cvsgui.org/TortoiseCVS/index.shtml) is an excellent Windows interface to CVS.

I used WinCVS for a while, and really grew to hate it. Another SourceForge developer mentioned TortoiseCVS, and I thought it was fantastic. I’d recommend anyway who normally uses WinCVS to take a look at it.

-b

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26

I’ve never had much luck with trying to convince VSS to do multi-branch
development, for example. Anytime I have attempted to have multiple
instances of an element I have regretted it. Also, it is really annoying
that a project and a system/user are tied to a single ‘workspace’. It is
also notorious for not scaling very well with either number of users or
size of project. The combination of anything more than a small number of
users and a large project is as far as I know fatal.

On the other hand, I spend half my time on small projects with one or
two developers, and for those projects VSS is pretty much ideal, as it
is easy to administer, lightweight (it gets out of the way until
needed,) and integrates seamlessly with VisualStudio.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:13 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

BTW - maybe somebody can list the real advantages of Perforce over
SourceOffSite?
Otherwise, the “it’s just more serious” phrase is meaningless, and the
Perforce’s drawback is worse speed on weak connections.
Also - what are the VSS’s drawbacks except being unstable on huge
databases?
Peter said he cannot imagine NT on VSS. But what namely VSS’
functionality is bad? What things are missing from VSS?
Yes, it just cannot work over slow link since it is not client-server
and uses SMB - but there is SOS to solve it.

Max

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian mailto:xxxxx McFadden
To: NT Developers Interest List mailto:xxxxx
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

I think it should be added that TortoiseCVS
(http://www.cvsgui.org/TortoiseCVS/index.shtml) is an excellent Windows
interface to CVS.

I used WinCVS for a while, and really grew to hate it. Another
SourceForge developer mentioned TortoiseCVS, and I thought it was
fantastic. I’d recommend anyway who normally uses WinCVS to take a look
at it.

-b

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27

Cross platform clients and servers (a big plus if you are running a mix of
*nix and Windows)
Designed to deal with code branching in a much better way than VSS.
Built in security and the concept of “change lists”
Stablity
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 4:13 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

BTW - maybe somebody can list the real advantages of Perforce over
SourceOffSite?
Otherwise, the “it’s just more serious” phrase is meaningless, and the
Perforce’s drawback is worse speed on weak connections.
Also - what are the VSS’s drawbacks except being unstable on huge
databases?
Peter said he cannot imagine NT on VSS. But what namely VSS’ functionality
is bad? What things are missing from VSS?
Yes, it just cannot work over slow link since it is not client-server and
uses SMB - but there is SOS to solve it.

Max

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian McFadden
To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

I think it should be added that TortoiseCVS
(http://www.cvsgui.org/TortoiseCVS/index.shtml) is an excellent Windows
interface to CVS.

I used WinCVS for a while, and really grew to hate it. Another
SourceForge developer mentioned TortoiseCVS, and I thought it was fantastic.
I’d recommend anyway who normally uses WinCVS to take a look at it.

-b

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28

SOS has clients for many platforms to allow non-Windows clients to
access the VSS database.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Jim Young
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 5:29 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

Cross platform clients and servers (a big plus if you are running a mix
of *nix and Windows)
Designed to deal with code branching in a much better way than VSS.
Built in security and the concept of “change lists”
Stablity

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 4:13 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

BTW - maybe somebody can list the real advantages of Perforce over
SourceOffSite?
Otherwise, the “it’s just more serious” phrase is meaningless, and the
Perforce’s drawback is worse speed on weak connections.
Also - what are the VSS’s drawbacks except being unstable on huge
databases?
Peter said he cannot imagine NT on VSS. But what namely VSS’
functionality is bad? What things are missing from VSS?
Yes, it just cannot work over slow link since it is not client-server
and uses SMB - but there is SOS to solve it.

Max

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian mailto:xxxxx McFadden
To: NT Developers Interest List mailto:xxxxx
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

I think it should be added that TortoiseCVS
(http://www.cvsgui.org/TortoiseCVS/index.shtml) is an excellent Windows
interface to CVS.

I used WinCVS for a while, and really grew to hate it. Another
SourceForge developer mentioned TortoiseCVS, and I thought it was
fantastic. I’d recommend anyway who normally uses WinCVS to take a look
at it.

-b

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29

Maxim wrote:

But what namely VSS’ functionality is bad? What things are missing from
VSS?

I used to work with MKS Source Integrity, which is RCS-based. Nice
functionality, but full of archive-corrupting bugs. Not a nice thing when
you are the system’s admin…which I was at the time. I would never
recommend this system to anyone, unless it matures and the major bugs are
gone.

I’ve changed jobs since (partly because of this) and now work with VSS (not
as an admin, just as a developer). One of the things I miss in VSS (but
could do in MKS SI) is the ability to use a 3rd party diff tool (like Araxis
Merge).

This doesn’t sound like a big problem, but when you’re used to a great tool
like Araxis, it is frustrating having to work with VSS’s diff tool all the
time…

Gert-Jan

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30

MessageIn my experience, a team of 20 people worked fine using VSS.

Max

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Roddy
To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 4:23 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

I’ve never had much luck with trying to convince VSS to do multi-branch development, for example. Anytime I have attempted to have multiple instances of an element I have regretted it. Also, it is really annoying that a project and a system/user are tied to a single ‘workspace’. It is also notorious for not scaling very well with either number of users or size of project. The combination of anything more than a small number of users and a large project is as far as I know fatal.

On the other hand, I spend half my time on small projects with one or two developers, and for those projects VSS is pretty much ideal, as it is easy to administer, lightweight (it gets out of the way until needed,) and integrates seamlessly with VisualStudio.
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:13 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

BTW - maybe somebody can list the real advantages of Perforce over SourceOffSite?
Otherwise, the “it’s just more serious” phrase is meaningless, and the Perforce’s drawback is worse speed on weak connections.
Also - what are the VSS’s drawbacks except being unstable on huge databases?
Peter said he cannot imagine NT on VSS. But what namely VSS’ functionality is bad? What things are missing from VSS?
Yes, it just cannot work over slow link since it is not client-server and uses SMB - but there is SOS to solve it.

Max

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian McFadden
To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

I think it should be added that TortoiseCVS (http://www.cvsgui.org/TortoiseCVS/index.shtml) is an excellent Windows interface to CVS.

I used WinCVS for a while, and really grew to hate it. Another SourceForge developer mentioned TortoiseCVS, and I thought it was fantastic. I’d recommend anyway who normally uses WinCVS to take a look at it.

-b

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31

Message…and multiple checkouts are just plain evil.
I will not trust an automatic merge of them.

Max
----- Original Message -----
From: Jamey Kirby
To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 5:32 AM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

SOS has clients for many platforms to allow non-Windows clients to access the VSS database.
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Jim Young
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 5:29 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

Cross platform clients and servers (a big plus if you are running a mix of *nix and Windows)
Designed to deal with code branching in a much better way than VSS.
Built in security and the concept of “change lists”
Stablity
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Maxim S. Shatskih
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 4:13 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

BTW - maybe somebody can list the real advantages of Perforce over SourceOffSite?
Otherwise, the “it’s just more serious” phrase is meaningless, and the Perforce’s drawback is worse speed on weak connections.
Also - what are the VSS’s drawbacks except being unstable on huge databases?
Peter said he cannot imagine NT on VSS. But what namely VSS’ functionality is bad? What things are missing from VSS?
Yes, it just cannot work over slow link since it is not client-server and uses SMB - but there is SOS to solve it.

Max

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian McFadden
To: NT Developers Interest List
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

I think it should be added that TortoiseCVS (http://www.cvsgui.org/TortoiseCVS/index.shtml) is an excellent Windows interface to CVS.

I used WinCVS for a while, and really grew to hate it. Another SourceForge developer mentioned TortoiseCVS, and I thought it was fantastic. I’d recommend anyway who normally uses WinCVS to take a look at it.

-b

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32

> I’ve changed jobs since (partly because of this) and now work with VSS (not

as an admin, just as a developer). One of the things I miss in VSS (but
could do in MKS SI) is the ability to use a 3rd party diff tool (like Araxis

SourceOffSite allows setting your own diff tool.

Max

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33

Max and All,

I’m now using ClearCase, many might start sniveling over the steep learing
course or features that it misses but ClearCase (Perforce too) has an
orientation to parallel development.
Parallel development means that you team members can work on the same file
and when the changes are integrated you as an integrator can decide whats
good.
SourceSafe database sucks, merely it is not a database if you take a look
what goes on inside its folder you’ll see a bunch of files instead of one DB
file. I’ve seen lots of VSS failures over the course of 5 years that I used
this tool. The general rule of thumb is: if you have more than 2 developers
and you’d like to have some control over your project don’t use VSS.
Use any of Perforce, StarBase, ClearCase or better.
I’ve seen CVS mentioned in this thread, in my oppinion one can not risk the
fate of ones project over some crappy open source tool with no support.

Hope this helps,
Stas.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Gert-Jan Bartelds
Sent: Fri, December 14, 2001 9:37 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

Maxim wrote:

But what namely VSS’ functionality is bad? What things are missing from
VSS?

I used to work with MKS Source Integrity, which is RCS-based. Nice
functionality, but full of archive-corrupting bugs. Not a nice thing when
you are the system’s admin…which I was at the time. I would never
recommend this system to anyone, unless it matures and the major bugs are
gone.

I’ve changed jobs since (partly because of this) and now work with VSS (not
as an admin, just as a developer). One of the things I miss in VSS (but
could do in MKS SI) is the ability to use a 3rd party diff tool (like Araxis
Merge).

This doesn’t sound like a big problem, but when you’re used to a great tool
like Araxis, it is frustrating having to work with VSS’s diff tool all the
time…

Gert-Jan

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34

On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Stas Desy wrote:

SourceSafe database sucks, merely it is not a database if you take a look
what goes on inside its folder you’ll see a bunch of files instead of one DB
file.
It’s a minor thing, but really, this seems like a frickin’ bizarre thing
to say.

Being made up of multiple files does not preclude it being a database in
the slightest. Such a notion is ludicrous, in fact. I’m sitting here
looking at an SQL Server database made up of a number of files, both data
and transaction logs. It’s very much a database, despite not being a
single file.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Gert-Jan Bartelds
Sent: Fri, December 14, 2001 9:37 AM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

Maxim wrote:

> But what namely VSS’ functionality is bad? What things are missing from
VSS?

I used to work with MKS Source Integrity, which is RCS-based. Nice
functionality, but full of archive-corrupting bugs. Not a nice thing when
you are the system’s admin…which I was at the time. I would never
recommend this system to anyone, unless it matures and the major bugs are
gone.

I’ve changed jobs since (partly because of this) and now work with VSS (not
as an admin, just as a developer). One of the things I miss in VSS (but
could do in MKS SI) is the ability to use a 3rd party diff tool (like Araxis
Merge).

This doesn’t sound like a big problem, but when you’re used to a great tool
like Araxis, it is frustrating having to work with VSS’s diff tool all the
time…

Gert-Jan

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–
Peter xxxxx@inkvine.fluff.org
http://www.inkvine.fluff.org/~peter/

logic kicks ass:
(1) Horses have an even number of legs.
(2) They have two legs in back and fore legs in front.
(3) This makes a total of six legs, which certainly is an odd number of
legs for a horse.
(4) But the only number that is both odd and even is infinity.
(5) Therefore, horses must have an infinite number of legs.

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35

Talking about work being done on CVS integration with
Visual Studio… this one’s worth a look:

http://www.jalindi.com/igloo/

Miguel Monteiro
xxxxx@criticalsoftware.com

Critical Software, S.A. - http://www.criticalsoftware.com
111 North Market Street, 6th floor, San Jose, CA, USA, 95113
Tel: +1.408.9711231, Fax +1.408.9383929
R. Pedro Nunes, IPN, 3030-199 Coimbra, Portugal
Tel: +351.239.700945 - Fax: +351.239.700905

DISCLAIMER: This mail contents represent
my own personal opinions and do not, in any way,
represent the opinion or policy of Critical Software, S.A.

“Humour and love are God’s answers
to Human weaknesses” =:o)8

On Thursday, December 13, 2001 3:37 PM “Brian McFadden” wrote:

I think it should be added that TortoiseCVS
(http://www.cvsgui.org/TortoiseCVS/index.shtml) is an excellent
Windows interface to CVS.

I used WinCVS for a while, and really grew to hate it. Another
SourceForge developer mentioned TortoiseCVS, and I thought it
was fantastic. I’d recommend anyway who normally uses
WinCVS to take a look at it.

On Wednesday, December 12, 2001 8:47 PM “Mark de Wit” wrote:

On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Steve Dispensa wrote:

> It has its drawbacks, of course - it has poor support for binary
objects,
> in that it has to keep entire copies of each revision in the
repository.
> Also, it doesn’t integrate with windows source control well. It can
also
> be tough to learn to use.

There is some work being done on cvs integration with Visual Studio.
The
project at http://www.geocities.com/kaczoroj/CvsIn/ immediately comes
to
mind, but I think there are others too.

> More info:
> http://www.cvshome.org

For windows platforms, http://www.wincvs.org/ is useful too :slight_smile: I’ve
been
using the win32 command line cvs tools for some time now in a project,
and
have been very happy with it. Once set up correctly, it has required
no
maintenance so far…

> http://www.cvsgui.org
> http://www.vasoftware.com/sf
> http://sourceforge.net

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36

Hi Gert-Jan
Why do you have to use the internal diff tool in vss ?
when you could check the current files out of source safe to your HD and do
a local file compare and Merge with your updated source.

As a company we use vss to hold the latest working version of a project /
product and have a tin which unless the developer has it, they cannot check
stuff in to vss.
On getting the tin (the user wishes to put some changes in)the user checks
out the latest build and merges his changes into this.
Once tested the changed build is checked back into vss and labeled.

I do this all the time and find araxis tool invaluable for this.

Robert Fernando
Anite Telecoms Ltd
110 Fleet Road
Fleet
Hampshire GU51 4BL
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1252 775200
Fax: +44 (0) 1252 775 321
Email: xxxxx@anitetelecoms.com

Anite Telecoms Limited Registered in England No. 1721900 Registered
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-----Original Message-----
From: Gert-Jan Bartelds [mailto:xxxxx@Fenestrae.com]
Sent: 14 December 2001 07:37
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

Maxim wrote:

But what namely VSS’ functionality is bad? What things are missing from
VSS?

I used to work with MKS Source Integrity, which is RCS-based. Nice
functionality, but full of archive-corrupting bugs. Not a nice thing when
you are the system’s admin…which I was at the time. I would never
recommend this system to anyone, unless it matures and the major bugs are
gone.

I’ve changed jobs since (partly because of this) and now work with VSS (not
as an admin, just as a developer). One of the things I miss in VSS (but
could do in MKS SI) is the ability to use a 3rd party diff tool (like Araxis
Merge).

This doesn’t sound like a big problem, but when you’re used to a great tool
like Araxis, it is frustrating having to work with VSS’s diff tool all the
time…

Gert-Jan

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37

> the slightest. Such a notion is ludicrous, in fact. I’m sitting here

looking at an SQL Server database made up of a number of files, both data
and transaction logs. It’s very much a database, despite not being a

Do they support cross-database (i.e. cross-file) joins?

Max

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38

> this tool. The general rule of thumb is: if you have more than 2 developers

and you’d like to have some control over your project don’t use VSS.

Strange, I know companies of >100 developers running VSS with no problems.

I’ve seen CVS mentioned in this thread, in my oppinion one can not risk the
fate of ones project over some crappy open source tool with no support.

Oh yes, 80% of webservers in the world run “crappy open source tool” too.

Max

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39

> -----Original Message-----

From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim
S. Shatskih
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:49 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

> this tool. The general rule of thumb is: if you have more than 2
> developers and you’d like to have some control over your
project don’t
> use VSS.

Strange, I know companies of >100 developers running VSS with
no problems.

Surely you mean that while there are >100 developers,and these
developers all use VSS, that no more than 5-6 developers work on any one
project, and each project has its on VSS server, right?

> I’ve seen CVS mentioned in this thread, in my oppinion one can not
> risk the fate of ones project over some crappy open source
tool with
> no support.

Oh yes, 80% of webservers in the world run “crappy open
source tool” too.

CVS has a pretty long history, I rather doubt it is really in the
‘crappy’ open source category. It wasn’t hideous eight years ago when I
was using it on a large geographically distributed project (with some
home-grown front end tools of course.)

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40

Over 100 developers.
1 VSS database.
What a nightmare.

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com]On Behalf Of Mark Roddy
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 4:25 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Maxim
S. Shatskih
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:49 PM
To: NT Developers Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Re: An alternative to visual source safe version 6

> this tool. The general rule of thumb is: if you have more than 2
> developers and you’d like to have some control over your
project don’t
> use VSS.

Strange, I know companies of >100 developers running VSS with
no problems.

Surely you mean that while there are >100 developers,and these
developers all use VSS, that no more than 5-6 developers work on any one
project, and each project has its on VSS server, right?

> I’ve seen CVS mentioned in this thread, in my oppinion one can not
> risk the fate of ones project over some crappy open source
tool with
> no support.

Oh yes, 80% of webservers in the world run “crappy open
source tool” too.

CVS has a pretty long history, I rather doubt it is really in the
‘crappy’ open source category. It wasn’t hideous eight years ago when I
was using it on a large geographically distributed project (with some
home-grown front end tools of course.)

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