The Move to a New Home

On Jul 28, 2018, at 12:13 PM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
>
> We chose 1 January 2010 as the starting point of the archives to port totally arbitrarily. I, personally, have trouble believing that a lot of posts made back in 2000 are still relevant.
>
> Do folks REALLY think posts back “to the beginning” (which is, effectively, the year 2000) are valuable enough that we should port them?

Personally, I do, yes. Part of it is principle; once something is on the Internet – especially something technical – there’s no good reason why it shouldn’t be there forever. Part of it is practical. HUGE sections of the Windows NT kernel work basically the same as they did in 1995. Many driver models have a 20-year lifetime. Streaming and multimedia drivers are a good example. We’ve learned a lot since then, but many of the early experts had words that are still applicable today. I’m thinking specifically of Walter Only, who would be erased from the record by a 2010 cutoff.

> If people really think it’d be valuable, I guess I can find out.

It’s not my money, of course, but I think it’s worth exploring.

Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

I also sometimes refer to material from the list which predates 2010. I suspect that there are several people on the list like me who still have to support XP drivers, particularly for embedded systems. One of my customers still has NT4 drivers in the field. The posts from the “dawn of XP” era actually contain some useful information which is still relevant today.

Best regards

Chris Read

On 28/07/2018 20:13, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:

Mr. Bassov:

See the following:

https:
>
> The “Troll” option isn’t checked in your profile… yet:
>
> https:
>
> Mr. Roberts:
>
>


>
> I posted this not even three hours ago, and you’re the SECOND person to suggest/request that we expand what we’re moving.
>
> We chose 1 January 2010 as the starting point of the archives to port totally arbitrarily. I, personally, have trouble believing that a lot of posts made back in 2000 are still relevant.
>
> Do folks REALLY think posts back “to the beginning” (which is, effectively, the year 2000) are valuable enough that we should port them?

In what form do you have the archives? If they are standard mbox files
then it seems to me that just making them available for download might
be a reasonable compromise.

I often import mbox files into my local Thunderbird for archival
reference and searching.

Thank you also for the detailed blog article explaining what will change
and how. Realising that full email access to all messages (as is usual
for mail lists) won’t be available to all, at least at the beginning, is
important to know.

As an aside, I do understand that forum-first is the way of things for
online communities today. However, the increasing popularity of pure
web-based/app-accessed forums at the expense of standardised and/or
federated access methodologies like email, NNTP, or even RSS/ATOM (at a
granular/controllable enough level) is bringing home to me a significant
problem: It is making it difficult for some people to follow the
communities they might otherwise wish to and previously would have been
able to. Having to stop one’s other workflow and look at a web forum via
browser or app is far less time-efficient than simply seeing new
messages appearing in one’s mail client, NNTP client, or RSS/ATOM
client, and being able to comment the same way (via email or NNTP). And
so I really do thank you for finding a new hosting provider who can
handle email (even if not all-to-all for everyone to begin with).

Web-based/app-accessed forums seem fine to me if one is either dipping
in now and again or if one uses only a few web forums but seem less
suitable if one is interested in many communities and thus do not have
time to access multiple different forums (potentially with different
forum software and looks and feels). Some people think that email or
NNTP are old fashioned; I think they are simply efficient.

Anyway, thanks again for the clear communications and for catering for
those of us who prefer email.


Mark Rousell</https:></https:>

For NTFSD, I am sure a lot of the pre 2010 posts are of great value. Not
just the part that is related to FltMgr, but legacy filter framework as
well.
There are still legacy filters around, and there are things that were
discussed for legacy filters only, but still apply to FltMgr. And then
there are things that seem to be doable with the legacy model only.

I dug up quite a few things pre2010 just this week, that I needed.

On a side note, thank you for keeping this list/forum/whatever_ya_call_it!

Kind regards, Dejan.

On 29/07/2018 2:06 PM xxxxx@signal100.commailto:xxxxx wrote:

> Web-based/app-accessed forums seem fine to me if one is either dipping in now and again or if one uses only a few web forums but seem less
> suitable if one is interested in many communities and thus do not have time to access multiple different forums (potentially with different forum
> software and looks and feels). Some people think that email or NNTP are old fashioned; I think they are simply efficient.

> Anyway, thanks again for the clear communications and for catering for those of us who prefer email.

100% agree.

As for old forums content - there’s a lot of legacy code still alive and kicking. And sometimes it still has to be maintained - and I’m not even speaking about XP. There is still even Windows 2000 there in the wild, alive and kicking. Old forum content still serves practical purposes. So, IMHO, the earlier would be cutoff date, the better.

Regards,
Alex Krol</mailto:xxxxx>

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. We will TRY to communicate clearly, and I appreciate the encouragement that indicates that we?ve started on the right foot.

The new forum will indeed support RSS feeds. I agree these are valuable, even if they are sadly going out of style. Content providers tend not to like them because you can get content without the provider getting eyes on their site. That?s not something we care about (much) obviously.

NNTP is just made for a different era. There are security issues with supporting it. That?s why it?s effectively dead and there?s no decent hosting provider that?ll support it these days. Times change.

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers

> As for old forums content - there’s a lot of legacy code still alive and kicking.

And sometimes it still has to be maintained - and I’m not even speaking about XP.
There is still even Windows 2000 there in the wild, alive and kicking.

I think it happens because organisations are not really THAT keen on software upgrades.
Unlike “Apple fanboys” who always need the latest possible version of the device/OS just in order to look “cool”, they tend to be fine with everything that offers the required functionality and serves its purpose well. In the end of the day, a large-scale software upgrade may be VERY costly, so that it does not really make sense to try the one unless you are pressed really hard.

However, don’t forget that hardware has a certain lifespan as well, so that their hardware base will get eventually updated as well. If you are using Win2K on your machine in the year 2018, it must be at least 15 years old, and, hence, is due to get replaced “for the natural causes” pretty shortly. Your new OEM machine is already going to have a new OS version, so that a hardware upgrade invariably implies the software one as well. Therefore, I think that the old OS versions will literally go through “the mass extinction” in the visible future, both in the desktop space and in the embedded one (although in the embedded world it may, probably, take a bit longer)…

Anton Bassov

> Do folks REALLY think posts back “to the beginning” (which is, effectively,

the year 2000) are valuable enough that we should port them?

Perhaps in the same way the O’Reilly folks weren’t sure a book on
“Windows NT File System Internals” written for Windows NT 3.x/4.x was
still helpful or informative? Thankfully there was a player in the
Windows driver development community who saw the value in preserving
even this older information for current file system developers. :wink:

If the project were mine to decide, I would certainly default to “from
the beginning”, rather than deciding what history will or will not be
useful. That same archive is living on my laptop, so there is
certainly room for it on the server. My US$0.02. Thanks for the
commitment to the community, regardless of what you decide.

Alan Adams
Client for Open Enterprise Server
Micro Focus
xxxxx@microfocus.com

On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 1:19 PM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
> Thanks to everyone for the feedback. We will TRY to communicate clearly, and I appreciate the encouragement that indicates that we?ve started on the right foot.
>
>


>
> The new forum will indeed support RSS feeds. I agree these are valuable, even if they are sadly going out of style. Content providers tend not to like them because you can get content without the provider getting eyes on their site. That?s not something we care about (much) obviously.
>
> NNTP is just made for a different era. There are security issues with supporting it. That?s why it?s effectively dead and there?s no decent hosting provider that?ll support it these days. Times change.
>

Can you summarize the issues? Maybe in a personal email, if you have
the time. I don’t want to derail the conversation too badly.

I am glad to see RSS support!

On 30/07/2018 01:16, xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:

On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 1:19 PM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
>> Thanks to everyone for the feedback. We will TRY to communicate clearly, and I appreciate the encouragement that indicates that we?ve started on the right foot.
>>
>>


>>
>> The new forum will indeed support RSS feeds. I agree these are valuable, even if they are sadly going out of style. Content providers tend not to like them because you can get content without the provider getting eyes on their site. That?s not something we care about (much) obviously.
>>
>> NNTP is just made for a different era. There are security issues with supporting it. That?s why it?s effectively dead and there?s no decent hosting provider that?ll support it these days. Times change.
>>
> Can you summarize the issues?

I’m quite curious about the issues, too, but I do realise that this
could take the discussion off-topic and could use up time better spent
on other work!

( It does sadden me that NNTP is effectively dead and yet its use case
is certainly alive and well with no direct, standardised, non-walled,
federate-able replacement. )


Mark Rousell

xxxxx@osr.com wrote:

But I *am* serious about wanting to know how far back in time people think the archives will be valuable. Back to 2005? Back to 2000?

I also find the information that can be found in such an archive very
valuable. Not only with regard to current driver development, but also
to understand why older drivers were implemented in a specific way, and
not least such an archive represents a lot of programming history that
shouldn’t simply be dropped.

So I’d appreciate if the archive could be preserved as complete as possible.

Martin

Martin Burnicki

Senior Software Engineer

MEINBERG Funkuhren GmbH & Co. KG
Email: xxxxx@meinberg.de
Phone: +49 5281 9309-414
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martinburnicki/

Lange Wand 9, 31812 Bad Pyrmont, Germany
Amtsgericht Hannover 17HRA 100322
Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Günter Meinberg, Werner Meinberg,
Andre Hartmann, Heiko Gerstung
Websites: https://www.meinberg.de https://www.meinbergglobal.com
Training: https://www.meinberg.academy

If you don’t maintain the history, someone else will. You will then no longer be the authoritative source for your own content. If I were you, this would be enough reason to at least try to maintain *everything*.

This reminds me of the burning of the library of Alexandria. I suppose nothing of any real value was lost then, either. It is so much easier to lose vast chunks of history now. It is not just the technical info, it is the names, people, and context.

>This reminds me of the burning of the library of Alexandria

/rolls eyes

I *get* that people think we should maintain the history. I appreciate that people love it and use it.

But let’s not get, you know, SILLY about the whole thing.

I think Mr. Roberts made the point succinctly when he said “I think it would be a huge benefit for the industry.” – Point taken. I’m off looking into the practicality of keeping the old stuff.

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers

I never need something that old…until I need it…and that is usually about 5 minutes AFTER it is deleted permanently.

Greg

xxxxx@lists.osr.com wrote:

From: “xxxxx@osr.com
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Subject: RE:[ntdev] The Move to a New Home
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 16:49:16 -0400 (EDT)

>This reminds me of the burning of the library of Alexandria

/rolls eyes

I get that people think we should maintain the history. I appreciate that people love it and use it.

But let’s not get, you know, SILLY about the whole thing.

I think Mr. Roberts made the point succinctly when he said “I think it would be a huge benefit for the industry.” – Point taken. I’m off looking into the practicality of keeping the old stuff.

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list online at: http:

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If you can’t move it and keep it searchable, etc. Even hosting a .zip
file with a text dump of all the posts might enable the few who need it
at some point to find an answer to a question.

On 7/30/2018 2:49 PM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:

> This reminds me of the burning of the library of Alexandria
/rolls eyes

I *get* that people think we should maintain the history. I appreciate that people love it and use it.

But let’s not get, you know, SILLY about the whole thing.

I think Mr. Roberts made the point succinctly when he said “I think it would be a huge benefit for the industry.” – Point taken. I’m off looking into the practicality of keeping the old stuff.

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list online at: http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:>

Ditto. An mbox file, need not even be hosted, you can use torrenting, to
offload virtually all of the server load.
You don’t even need to do it on your own server, but public ones.

Kind regards, Dejan.

On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 11:42 PM xxxxx@lordjeb.com
wrote:

> If you can’t move it and keep it searchable, etc. Even hosting a .zip
> file with a text dump of all the posts might enable the few who need it
> at some point to find an answer to a question.
>
>
> On 7/30/2018 2:49 PM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
> >> This reminds me of the burning of the library of Alexandria
> > /rolls eyes
> >
> > I get that people think we should maintain the history. I appreciate
> that people love it and use it.
> >
> > But let’s not get, you know, SILLY about the whole thing.
> >
> > I think Mr. Roberts made the point succinctly when he said “I think it
> would be a huge benefit for the industry.” – Point taken. I’m off
> looking into the practicality of keeping the old stuff.
> >
> > Peter
> > OSR
> > @OSRDrivers
> >
> >
> > —
> > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
> >
> > Visit the list online at: <
> http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev&gt;
> >
> > MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> > Details at http:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer&gt;
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: <
> http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev&gt;
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer&gt;
></http:></http:>

> An mbox file, need not even be hosted

Heard.

Just so people understand: There?s zero chance of our making an mbox file available. The Lyris database is in a giant SQL Server database, which is a big part of what makes this migration so difficult.

Thank you all very much for the inputs. I?ve heard the feedback you?ve provided so far, and we?re working the issue regarding keeping ALL the archives available. I?ll report back when I have an answer for you on that issue.

Aside from the archive issue, if anybody has any other thoughts, ideas, suggestions, requests, or concerns, this would be a great time to raise them.

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers

Can the sql db be made public?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018, 13:42 xxxxx@osr.com, wrote:

> > An mbox file, need not even be hosted
>
> Heard.
>
> Just so people understand: There?s zero chance of our making an mbox file
> available. The Lyris database is in a giant SQL Server database, which is
> a big part of what makes this migration so difficult.
>
> Thank you all very much for the inputs. I?ve heard the feedback you?ve
> provided so far, and we?re working the issue regarding keeping ALL the
> archives available. I?ll report back when I have an answer for you on that
> issue.
>
> Aside from the archive issue, if anybody has any other thoughts, ideas,
> suggestions, requests, or concerns, this would be a great time to raise
> them.
>
> Peter
> OSR
> @OSRDrivers
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: <
> http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev&gt;
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer&gt;
></http:>

One thing I’ve noticed is that my email spam filter has seen a big increase
in forum email routed to the spam bucket. I’m trying to decide if that is a
feature or a bug.

Mark Roddy

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 7:42 AM xxxxx@osr.com wrote:

> > An mbox file, need not even be hosted
>
> Heard.
>
> Just so people understand: There?s zero chance of our making an mbox file
> available. The Lyris database is in a giant SQL Server database, which is
> a big part of what makes this migration so difficult.
>
> Thank you all very much for the inputs. I?ve heard the feedback you?ve
> provided so far, and we?re working the issue regarding keeping ALL the
> archives available. I?ll report back when I have an answer for you on that
> issue.
>
> Aside from the archive issue, if anybody has any other thoughts, ideas,
> suggestions, requests, or concerns, this would be a great time to raise
> them.
>
> Peter
> OSR
> @OSRDrivers
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: <
> http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev&gt;
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer&gt;
></http:>

Continued in a new thread.