Hello,
I have to send data from a PC running windows to another CPU running linux.
Can you please send me a starting point for this project ?
Is there any relevant sample in WinDDK ?
Thank you,
Z.V
The only way this will work is if the linux host can be a device on the bus, usb is not a generic point to point bus
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 8:03 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
Hello,
I have to send data from a PC running windows to another CPU running linux.
Can you please send me a starting point for this project ?
Is there any relevant sample in WinDDK ?
Thank you,
Z.V
—
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Why not just use normal networking, or if it is ‘real-time’ then a simple TCP/IP application (or SOAP or whatever). It doesn’t sound like you need to get involved with driver stuff.
* Bob
? Bob Ammerman
? xxxxx@ramsystems.biz
716.864.8337
138 Liston St
Buffalo, NY 14223
www.ramsystems.biz
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-617253-
xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 11:03 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
>
> Hello,
>
> I have to send data from a PC running windows to another CPU running linux.
>
> Can you please send me a starting point for this project ?
>
> Is there any relevant sample in WinDDK ?
>
> Thank you,
> Z.V
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http:</http:></http:></http:>
Hi Doron,
How can I know if the linux host can be a device on the bus ?
Currently, the linux side does not have a USB device driver.
Thank you,
Z.V
-----Original Message-----
From: Doron Holan
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 18:31
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
The only way this will work is if the linux host can be a device on the bus,
usb is not a generic point to point bus
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 8:03 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
Hello,
I have to send data from a PC running windows to another CPU running linux.
Can you please send me a starting point for this project ?
Is there any relevant sample in WinDDK ?
Thank you,
Z.V
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list online at:
http:
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drivers!
Details at http:
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http:
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http:
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What kind of Linux machine is this?!? Out of the box linux has a (host) device driver for USB.
Are you trying to use the Linux box as a “device”, not a “host”?
* Bob
? Bob Ammerman
? xxxxx@ramsystems.biz
716.864.8337
138 Liston St
Buffalo, NY 14223
www.ramsystems.biz
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-617265-
xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Zvi Vered
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 2:31 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
>
> Hi Doron,
>
> How can I know if the linux host can be a device on the bus ?
> Currently, the linux side does not have a USB device driver.
>
> Thank you,
> Z.V
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doron Holan
> Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 18:31
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
>
> The only way this will work is if the linux host can be a device on the bus, usb is
> not a generic point to point bus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-617253-
> xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@gmail.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 8:03 AM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
>
> Hello,
>
> I have to send data from a PC running windows to another CPU running linux.
>
> Can you please send me a starting point for this project ?
>
> Is there any relevant sample in WinDDK ?
>
> Thank you,
> Z.V
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at:
> http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http:
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at:
> http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http:
>
>
> —
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>
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>
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I have no idea, ask on a Linux forum
Get Outlook for Androidhttps:
________________________________
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com on behalf of Zvi Vered
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:31:17 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
Hi Doron,
How can I know if the linux host can be a device on the bus ?
Currently, the linux side does not have a USB device driver.
Thank you,
Z.V
-----Original Message-----
From: Doron Holan
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 18:31
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
The only way this will work is if the linux host can be a device on the bus,
usb is not a generic point to point bus
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 8:03 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
Hello,
I have to send data from a PC running windows to another CPU running linux.
Can you please send me a starting point for this project ?
Is there any relevant sample in WinDDK ?
Thank you,
Z.V
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list online at:
http:
MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software
drivers!
Details at http:
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http:
—
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Visit the list online at:
http:
MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software
drivers!
Details at http:
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http:
—
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Visit the list online at: http:
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Hi Bob,
The linux side runs ubuntu 14.4. It’s an NVIDIA’s Tegra-TK1 board. The CPU is ARM.
You asked: Are you trying to use the Linux box as a “device”, not a “host”?
I have no experience with USB at all. Do not know what the difference between device and host.
Thank you,
Z.V
Okay, I looked at the board. You would be far better served to develop your link using the Ethernet connection and standard TCP/IP protocol. USB really is designed for a strongly asymmetrical world of a powerful host and a much simpler slave (although the line has been blurred lately).
* Bob
? Bob Ammerman
? xxxxx@ramsystems.biz
716.864.8337
138 Liston St
Buffalo, NY 14223
www.ramsystems.biz
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-617276-
xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 10:18 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE:[ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> The linux side runs ubuntu 14.4. It’s an NVIDIA’s Tegra-TK1 board. The CPU is
> ARM.
>
> You asked: Are you trying to use the Linux box as a “device”, not a “host”?
>
> I have no experience with USB at all. Do not know what the difference between
> device and host.
>
> Thank you,
> Z.V
>
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http:</http:></http:></http:>
xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
The linux side runs ubuntu 14.4. It’s an NVIDIA’s Tegra-TK1 board. The CPU is ARM.
You asked: Are you trying to use the Linux box as a “device”, not a “host”?
I have no experience with USB at all. Do not know what the difference between device and host.
How can you expect to get work done without even knowing this level of
detail?
USB is a master/slave bus. Only one end is in control – the host. A
USB device cannot initiate any activity at all. Everything originates
at the host. Your mouse, keyboard, and speakers are all devices.
The Tegra TK1 can act as either, on separate ports. It has a USB 3.0
host port (where you can plug in your devices), and it has a USB 2.0
device port (which you can plus into another computer). There is a
Linux framework called “the USB gadget API” that lets you enable and
drive the USB device port, but you would have to design the device and
the driver support.
Robert is exactly correct – it’s not the right way to do what you ask.
If you want to communicate with this board, use Ethernet. That’s
already up and running right out of the box. You can even use SSH, so
the communication is encrypted.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
Hi Tim,
I wish I could use Ethernet. It is the simplest way.
But 1Gb Ethernet is too slow for my project.
I need at least 2.5Gb/sec throughput.
I want to use the USB 3.0 port as host and the x86 as a device.
Is there a good starting point example for this purpose ?
Thank you,
Z.V
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Roberts
Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 18:24
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
The linux side runs ubuntu 14.4. It’s an NVIDIA’s Tegra-TK1 board. The
CPU is ARM.You asked: Are you trying to use the Linux box as a “device”, not a
“host”?I have no experience with USB at all. Do not know what the difference
between device and host.
How can you expect to get work done without even knowing this level of
detail?
USB is a master/slave bus. Only one end is in control – the host. A
USB device cannot initiate any activity at all. Everything originates
at the host. Your mouse, keyboard, and speakers are all devices.
The Tegra TK1 can act as either, on separate ports. It has a USB 3.0
host port (where you can plug in your devices), and it has a USB 2.0
device port (which you can plus into another computer). There is a
Linux framework called “the USB gadget API” that lets you enable and
drive the USB device port, but you would have to design the device and
the driver support.
Robert is exactly correct – it’s not the right way to do what you ask.
If you want to communicate with this board, use Ethernet. That’s
already up and running right out of the box. You can even use SSH, so
the communication is encrypted.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list online at:
http:
MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software
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Details at http:
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http:</http:></http:></http:>
Have you looked at using remote direct memory access (RDMA) devices? The
Nvidia GPUs even support RDMA directly into GPU memory. Look at the NICs
offered by Mellanox. You could easily have 10/40/56/100 Gbps transfers from
device to device. If you have any pseudo realtime requirement in this
design, look at keeping your CPUs freed up from switching into the kernel
and keep your processing in your user mode apps. RDMA is your friend here.
On Saturday, October 8, 2016, Zvi Vered wrote:
> Hi Tim,
>
> I wish I could use Ethernet. It is the simplest way.
> But 1Gb Ethernet is too slow for my project.
> I need at least 2.5Gb/sec throughput.
>
> I want to use the USB 3.0 port as host and the x86 as a device.
> Is there a good starting point example for this purpose ?
>
> Thank you,
> Z.V
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Tim Roberts
> Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 18:24
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
>
> xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> The linux side runs ubuntu 14.4. It’s an NVIDIA’s Tegra-TK1 board. The
>> CPU is ARM.
>>
>> You asked: Are you trying to use the Linux box as a “device”, not a
>> “host”?
>>
>> I have no experience with USB at all. Do not know what the difference
>> between device and host.
>>
>
> How can you expect to get work done without even knowing this level of
> detail?
>
> USB is a master/slave bus. Only one end is in control – the host. A
> USB device cannot initiate any activity at all. Everything originates
> at the host. Your mouse, keyboard, and speakers are all devices.
>
> The Tegra TK1 can act as either, on separate ports. It has a USB 3.0
> host port (where you can plug in your devices), and it has a USB 2.0
> device port (which you can plus into another computer). There is a
> Linux framework called “the USB gadget API” that lets you enable and
> drive the USB device port, but you would have to design the device and
> the driver support.
>
> Robert is exactly correct – it’s not the right way to do what you ask.
> If you want to communicate with this board, use Ethernet. That’s
> already up and running right out of the box. You can even use SSH, so
> the communication is encrypted.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: http:> lists.cfm?list=ntdev>
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: http:> lists.cfm?list=ntdev>
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer>
></http:></http:></http:></http:>
You could use Ethernet, just not 1 Gbps Ethernet. Actually, you might use three/four 1 Gbps Ethernet links teamed, although I’m not sure a quad 1 Gbps Ethernet card is much less expensive than a low end 10 Gbps card. You could use 10 Gbps Ethernet, or I read we are on the brink of having 2.5 and 5 Gbps Ethernet thanks to SerDes improvements in the last few years.
It sounds like you have some semi real-time bandwidth requirement, so likely will need extra bandwidth headroom to make up for the inevitable performance variations of a general purpose OS. Looking at a USB 3 to FIFO bridge chip datasheet (http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Documents/AppNotes/AN_386%20FTDI%20FT600%20Maximize%20Performance.pdf), is suggests peak bandwidth with be around 2.9 Gbps for USB 3. This is not a lot of bandwidth headroom from your stated 2.5 Gbps requirement. USB 3.1 has moved up to 10 Gbps, but I’m not sure what you would put at the target end. I thought USB 3 could do peer to peer mode, but have no idea if there is any OS support to use that mode. If peer mode USB worked, a pair of 10 Gbps USB 3.1 cards would likely be the lowest cost solution.
The easy solution seems like 10 Gbps Ethernet, cabled back to back, so no switch. This requires zero hardware design. You haven’t stated what the project budget is like. If you can spend a few million dollars on hardware and software design, you might create a solution at a little lower price point that a pair of 10 GbE cards. If it’s a low volume product, with limited budget, 10 GbE would get a prototype up and running quickly. A basic 10 GbE card is about $180 (http://www.colfaxdirect.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=1680&idcategory=6) and you would need a cable (http://www.colfaxdirect.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2709&idcategory=2). If you’re really cheap, like this is a student project, 10 GbE cards can be found on EBay for about $17.
Jan
On 10/8/16, 10:28 AM, “xxxxx@lists.osr.com on behalf of Zvi Vered” wrote:
Hi Tim,
I wish I could use Ethernet. It is the simplest way.
But 1Gb Ethernet is too slow for my project.
I need at least 2.5Gb/sec throughput.
I want to use the USB 3.0 port as host and the x86 as a device.
Is there a good starting point example for this purpose ?
Thank you,
Z.V
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Roberts
Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 18:24
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
> The linux side runs ubuntu 14.4. It’s an NVIDIA’s Tegra-TK1 board. The
> CPU is ARM.
>
> You asked: Are you trying to use the Linux box as a “device”, not a
> “host”?
>
> I have no experience with USB at all. Do not know what the difference
> between device and host.
How can you expect to get work done without even knowing this level of
detail?
USB is a master/slave bus. Only one end is in control – the host. A
USB device cannot initiate any activity at all. Everything originates
at the host. Your mouse, keyboard, and speakers are all devices.
The Tegra TK1 can act as either, on separate ports. It has a USB 3.0
host port (where you can plug in your devices), and it has a USB 2.0
device port (which you can plus into another computer). There is a
Linux framework called “the USB gadget API” that lets you enable and
drive the USB device port, but you would have to design the device and
the driver support.
Robert is exactly correct – it’s not the right way to do what you ask.
If you want to communicate with this board, use Ethernet. That’s
already up and running right out of the box. You can even use SSH, so
the communication is encrypted.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list online at:
http:
MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software
drivers!
Details at http:
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http:
—
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list online at: http:
MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
Details at http:
To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:>
Unfortunately, I don’t think any of the below will work. If I understand it correctly, the Linux-based device is a single-card computer (like a R-Pi on serious steroids) and does not have a bus into which one could plug a card.
Again, if I understand it correctly, the highest bandwidth connector on the card is a USB-3 HOST port. So the real question becomes: Is there any support to be a USB-3 DEVICE on Windows? I am guessing there is not.
* Bob
Bob Ammerman
xxxxx@ramsystems.biz
716.864.8337
138 Liston St
Buffalo, NY 14223
www.ramsystems.biz
-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-617373-
xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Jan Bottorff
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 3:57 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
>
> You could use Ethernet, just not 1 Gbps Ethernet. Actually, you might use
> three/four 1 Gbps Ethernet links teamed, although I’m not sure a quad 1 Gbps
> Ethernet card is much less expensive than a low end 10 Gbps card. You could
> use 10 Gbps Ethernet, or I read we are on the brink of having 2.5 and 5 Gbps
> Ethernet thanks to SerDes improvements in the last few years.
>
> It sounds like you have some semi real-time bandwidth requirement, so likely
> will need extra bandwidth headroom to make up for the inevitable
> performance variations of a general purpose OS. Looking at a USB 3 to FIFO
> bridge chip datasheet
> (http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Documents/AppNotes/AN_386%20FTDI%20F
> T600%20Maximize%20Performance.pdf), is suggests peak bandwidth with be
> around 2.9 Gbps for USB 3. This is not a lot of bandwidth headroom from your
> stated 2.5 Gbps requirement. USB 3.1 has moved up to 10 Gbps, but I’m not
> sure what you would put at the target end. I thought USB 3 could do peer to
> peer mode, but have no idea if there is any OS support to use that mode. If
> peer mode USB worked, a pair of 10 Gbps USB 3.1 cards would likely be the
> lowest cost solution.
>
> The easy solution seems like 10 Gbps Ethernet, cabled back to back, so no
> switch. This requires zero hardware design. You haven’t stated what the project
> budget is like. If you can spend a few million dollars on hardware and software
> design, you might create a solution at a little lower price point that a pair of 10
> GbE cards. If it’s a low volume product, with limited budget, 10 GbE would get a
> prototype up and running quickly. A basic 10 GbE card is about $180
> (http://www.colfaxdirect.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=1680&idcategor
> y=6) and you would need a cable
> (http://www.colfaxdirect.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2709&idcategor
> y=2). If you’re really cheap, like this is a student project, 10 GbE cards can be
> found on EBay for about $17.
>
> Jan
>
> On 10/8/16, 10:28 AM, “xxxxx@lists.osr.com on behalf of Zvi
> Vered” > xxxxx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> I wish I could use Ethernet. It is the simplest way.
> But 1Gb Ethernet is too slow for my project.
> I need at least 2.5Gb/sec throughput.
>
> I want to use the USB 3.0 port as host and the x86 as a device.
> Is there a good starting point example for this purpose ?
>
> Thank you,
> Z.V
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Roberts
> Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 18:24
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re: [ntdev] Send\Recieve data from windows via USB
>
> xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
> > The linux side runs ubuntu 14.4. It’s an NVIDIA’s Tegra-TK1 board. The
> > CPU is ARM.
> >
> > You asked: Are you trying to use the Linux box as a “device”, not a
> > “host”?
> >
> > I have no experience with USB at all. Do not know what the difference
> > between device and host.
>
> How can you expect to get work done without even knowing this level of
> detail?
>
> USB is a master/slave bus. Only one end is in control – the host. A
> USB device cannot initiate any activity at all. Everything originates
> at the host. Your mouse, keyboard, and speakers are all devices.
>
> The Tegra TK1 can act as either, on separate ports. It has a USB 3.0
> host port (where you can plug in your devices), and it has a USB 2.0
> device port (which you can plus into another computer). There is a
> Linux framework called “the USB gadget API” that lets you enable and
> drive the USB device port, but you would have to design the device and
> the driver support.
>
> Robert is exactly correct – it’s not the right way to do what you ask.
> If you want to communicate with this board, use Ethernet. That’s
> already up and running right out of the box. You can even use SSH, so
> the communication is encrypted.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at:
> http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software
> drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http:
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http:
>
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http:</http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:>
On Oct 8, 2016, at 10:28 AM, Zvi Vered wrote:
>
> I wish I could use Ethernet. It is the simplest way.
> But 1Gb Ethernet is too slow for my project.
> I need at least 2.5Gb/sec throughput.
Your Jetson card is incapable of moving that much data around. It is a compute engine, not an I/O engine. Crunch the data on the Jetson, and move the reduced data to your PC.
> I want to use the USB 3.0 port as host and the x86 as a device.
> Is there a good starting point example for this purpose ?
No. The host controller in your PC does not have the ability to act as a device. It requires both hardware and software support.
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Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.