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Pre-release version of New Windbg available

OSR_Community_User-48OSR_Community_User-48 Member Posts: 74
A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is now available at
http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/. This is the same debugger
package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon spoke about.

This is the re-desgined tools that Lee Fisher sent mail about several
months ago. To sum up his mail, the debugger technology is ntsd/kd has
been packaged up into a DLL and is being used by WinDbg. This means
that all debuggers accept the same commands, extensions, etc... The
WinDbg UI has been completely re-written. In addition many new features
have been added to the console mode debuggers, such as:
dv command for viewing locals
better source level debugger support
interface to write much more powerful extensions
More better documentation
kd.exe can debug NT4/Win2k/Whister and all CPU types
kd.exe can debug all flavors of crash dump files

I strongly encourage you read the documentation to learn about new
features and how to use them.

Please report bugs/feature requests to the location on the web page.

Enjoy

Nathan Nesbit

Comments

  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    I just downloaded and installed it. This is only a preliminary estimate but
    I would say, THANK YOU!!!! This is the first W2K compatible WinDbg that I
    have actually been able to use with NT4. No crashes yet, but I haven't used
    it for hours, and I haven't figured out how to tell it where my symbols are,
    but I do see possibilities.

    Again ... THANK YOU!!!



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Nathan Nesbit [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 2:21 PM
    To: NT Developers Interest List
    Subject: [ntdev] Pre-release version of New Windbg available



    A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is now available at
    http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/
    <http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/&gt; . This is the same debugger
    package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon spoke about.

    This is the re-desgined tools that Lee Fisher sent mail about several months
    ago. To sum up his mail, the debugger technology is ntsd/kd has been
    packaged up into a DLL and is being used by WinDbg. This means that all
    debuggers accept the same commands, extensions, etc... The WinDbg UI has
    been completely re-written. In addition many new features have been added
    to the console mode debuggers, such as:

    dv command for viewing locals
    better source level debugger support
    interface to write much more powerful extensions
    More better documentation
    kd.exe can debug NT4/Win2k/Whister and all CPU types
    kd.exe can debug all flavors of crash dump files

    I strongly encourage you read the documentation to learn about new features
    and how to use them.

    Please report bugs/feature requests to the location on the web page.

    Enjoy

    Nathan Nesbit
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    >A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is now available at
    http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/. This is the same >debugger
    package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon spoke about.

    I downloaded and played with this a bit. It looks pretty questionable it
    will save me any time over struggling with the old WinDBG, until it gets
    more mature. For example, QuickWatch for browsing structures seems not to
    function. On the bright side, after a couple cycles of booting, the new
    debugger eventually found the symbols for my driver, and actually stopped
    at a breakpoint.

    Still just amazes me that a company could spend 2 billion dollars on OS
    development and not have an extreemly great kernel debugger, fully debugged
    BEFORE writing a zillion lines of new kernel code.

    - Jan
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    Look in the help under environment variables and command line options. There
    is a stub of a 'bat' file that could be used to invoke a kernel session.

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Gary Little [mailto:[email protected]]
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 12:06 PM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] RE: Pre-release version of New WinDbg available
    >
    >
    > I just downloaded and installed it. This is only a
    > preliminary estimate but
    > I would say, THANK YOU!!!! This is the first W2K compatible
    > WinDbg that I
    > have actually been able to use with NT4. No crashes yet, but
    > I haven't used
    > it for hours, and I haven't figured out how to tell it where
    > my symbols are,
    > but I do see possibilities.
    >
    > Again ... THANK YOU!!!
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Nathan Nesbit [mailto:[email protected]]
    > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 2:21 PM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    >
    >
    > A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is now
    > available at
    > http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/
    > <http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/&gt; . This is the same debugger
    > package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon spoke about.
    >
    > This is the re-desgined tools that Lee Fisher sent mail about
    > several months
    > ago. To sum up his mail, the debugger technology is ntsd/kd has been
    > packaged up into a DLL and is being used by WinDbg. This
    > means that all
    > debuggers accept the same commands, extensions, etc... The
    > WinDbg UI has
    > been completely re-written. In addition many new features
    > have been added
    > to the console mode debuggers, such as:
    >
    > dv command for viewing locals
    > better source level debugger support
    > interface to write much more powerful extensions
    > More better documentation
    > kd.exe can debug NT4/Win2k/Whister and all CPU types
    > kd.exe can debug all flavors of crash dump files
    >
    > I strongly encourage you read the documentation to learn
    > about new features
    > and how to use them.
    >
    > Please report bugs/feature requests to the location on the web page.
    >
    > Enjoy
    >
    > Nathan Nesbit
    >
    >
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    > To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
    >
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    Hallo Jan,



    Thursday, April 27, 2000, 6:15:02 PM, you wrote:

    >>A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is now available at
    JB> http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/. This is the same >debugger
    JB> package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon spoke about.

    JB> I downloaded and played with this a bit. It looks pretty questionable it
    JB> will save me any time over struggling with the old WinDBG, until it gets
    JB> more mature. For example, QuickWatch for browsing structures seems not to
    JB> function. On the bright side, after a couple cycles of booting, the new
    JB> debugger eventually found the symbols for my driver, and actually stopped
    JB> at a breakpoint.

    JB> Still just amazes me that a company could spend 2 billion dollars on OS
    JB> development and not have an extreemly great kernel debugger, fully debugged
    JB> BEFORE writing a zillion lines of new kernel code.

    Yes, you are absolutely right. They should have a look at the
    developement of some other systems like BeOS or Linux :-)


    JB> - Jan


    JB> ---
    JB> You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: xxx[email protected]
    JB> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')



    ciao. Stefan

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Stefan Bambach

    triplex - agentur f?r neue medien GmbH
    Erhardtstr. 8
    80469 M?nchen

    Tel: +49 89 209138-29
    Fax: +49 89 209138-10
    mailto:[email protected]
    http://www.triplex.de
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    You know, I really, really, wanted to like the new version of windbag, but I
    can't. It is a hopeless bag of 'poop'. What the heck? Why release something
    as obviously horrible as this? So somebody promised that there would be
    something at WinHec, so what? Oh my, a late deliverable. I'm sorry, but I
    just don't get it.

    Problems encountered so far:

    1) no way to specify alternate symbol directories. Sorry for earlier
    (mis)information, this just doesn't work.

    2) no way to specify options inside the debugger

    3) no way to open a source file. Huh? Say What? Is it just me? This is
    USELESS!

    I'm not going to get to problems (4, 5, ...) for obvious reasons, this thing
    is not being used anymore.

    Sorry. I tried. Once again the new windbag is worse than the old one.

    p.s. the linux kernel debugger sucks too :-)

    Please note that my chronic complaining that windbag sucks represents my
    personal opinion, based on years of anguished usage, and does not reflect
    the views or opinions of any other person, entity, or organization.
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    Um, works for me. I found that I had to put the symbols to my driver first
    in the symbols path. I was then able to open source files, set breakpoints,
    view locals, etc. I was not able to edit local vars, but it did seem to
    basically work...

    Mike Gilson

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Roddy, Mark" <[email protected]>
    To: "NT Developers Interest List" <[email protected]>
    Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 1:09 PM
    Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available


    >
    >
    > You know, I really, really, wanted to like the new version of windbag, but
    I
    > can't. It is a hopeless bag of 'poop'. What the heck? Why release
    something
    > as obviously horrible as this? So somebody promised that there would be
    > something at WinHec, so what? Oh my, a late deliverable. I'm sorry, but I
    > just don't get it.
    >
    > Problems encountered so far:
    >
    > 1) no way to specify alternate symbol directories. Sorry for earlier
    > (mis)information, this just doesn't work.
    >
    > 2) no way to specify options inside the debugger
    >
    > 3) no way to open a source file. Huh? Say What? Is it just me? This is
    > USELESS!
    >
    > I'm not going to get to problems (4, 5, ...) for obvious reasons, this
    thing
    > is not being used anymore.
    >
    > Sorry. I tried. Once again the new windbag is worse than the old one.
    >
    > p.s. the linux kernel debugger sucks too :-)
    >
    > Please note that my chronic complaining that windbag sucks represents my
    > personal opinion, based on years of anguished usage, and does not reflect
    > the views or opinions of any other person, entity, or organization.
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    > To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
    >
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    Mark,

    Answers to some of you problems. You should try reading the help since it
    is quite good and has answers the following problems you mentioned.

    1) no way to specify alternate symbol directories. Sorry for earlier
    (mis)information, this just doesn't work.

    set the environment variable _NT_ALT_SYMBOL_PATH=<PATH>

    3) no way to open a source file. Huh? Say What? Is it just me? This is
    USELESS!
    Did you try - File\Open Source File...?

    While there are a few shortcomings (like Options not working) I like this
    version of Windbg quite a bit. It has a vastly superior GUI to the previous
    versions and you can thankfully set breakpoints during runtime.

    Note: since "Source File Path ... " is grayed out you need to use .srcpath
    in order for source level debugging to work.

    Daniel Nemiroff


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Roddy, Mark [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 11:09 AM
    To: NT Developers Interest List
    Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available




    You know, I really, really, wanted to like the new version of windbag, but I
    can't. It is a hopeless bag of 'poop'. What the heck? Why release something
    as obviously horrible as this? So somebody promised that there would be
    something at WinHec, so what? Oh my, a late deliverable. I'm sorry, but I
    just don't get it.

    Problems encountered so far:

    1) no way to specify alternate symbol directories. Sorry for earlier
    (mis)information, this just doesn't work.

    2) no way to specify options inside the debugger

    3) no way to open a source file. Huh? Say What? Is it just me? This is
    USELESS!

    I'm not going to get to problems (4, 5, ...) for obvious reasons, this thing
    is not being used anymore.

    Sorry. I tried. Once again the new windbag is worse than the old one.

    p.s. the linux kernel debugger sucks too :-)

    Please note that my chronic complaining that windbag sucks represents my
    personal opinion, based on years of anguished usage, and does not reflect
    the views or opinions of any other person, entity, or organization.

    ---
    You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    No I never though of trying File\Open Source File why would I do that?

    Of course I tried File\Open Source File, and that little folder button, and
    anything else that looked like it might actually open a source file. My
    guess is that it is mostly used on w2k systems and this is some sort of
    stupid gui bug exposed by my using it on an NT4 system.

    Oh, same with the _NT_ALT_SYMBOL_PATH which I of course used and which does
    not find my symbols. I haven't of course gotten to source code debugging as
    of course, I can't open a source file :-) The symbols not working is based
    on the PLAIN FACT that the prior version of windbag shows a whole lot of
    symbols on the the stack while this thing shows nothing other than ntkrnlmp.

    I tired reading the help. It was not much help.


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Nemiroff, Daniel [mailto:[email protected]]
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 2:32 PM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    >
    > Mark,
    >
    > Answers to some of you problems. You should try reading the
    > help since it
    > is quite good and has answers the following problems you mentioned.
    >
    > 1) no way to specify alternate symbol directories. Sorry for earlier
    > (mis)information, this just doesn't work.
    >
    > set the environment variable _NT_ALT_SYMBOL_PATH=<PATH>
    >
    > 3) no way to open a source file. Huh? Say What? Is it just me? This is
    > USELESS!
    > Did you try - File\Open Source File...?
    >
    > While there are a few shortcomings (like Options not working)
    > I like this
    > version of Windbg quite a bit. It has a vastly superior GUI
    > to the previous
    > versions and you can thankfully set breakpoints during runtime.
    >
    > Note: since "Source File Path ... " is grayed out you need to
    > use .srcpath
    > in order for source level debugging to work.
    >
    > Daniel Nemiroff
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Roddy, Mark [mailto:[email protected]]
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 11:09 AM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > You know, I really, really, wanted to like the new version of
    > windbag, but I
    > can't. It is a hopeless bag of 'poop'. What the heck? Why
    > release something
    > as obviously horrible as this? So somebody promised that
    > there would be
    > something at WinHec, so what? Oh my, a late deliverable. I'm
    > sorry, but I
    > just don't get it.
    >
    > Problems encountered so far:
    >
    > 1) no way to specify alternate symbol directories. Sorry for earlier
    > (mis)information, this just doesn't work.
    >
    > 2) no way to specify options inside the debugger
    >
    > 3) no way to open a source file. Huh? Say What? Is it just me? This is
    > USELESS!
    >
    > I'm not going to get to problems (4, 5, ...) for obvious
    > reasons, this thing
    > is not being used anymore.
    >
    > Sorry. I tried. Once again the new windbag is worse than the old one.
    >
    > p.s. the linux kernel debugger sucks too :-)
    >
    > Please note that my chronic complaining that windbag sucks
    > represents my
    > personal opinion, based on years of anguished usage, and does
    > not reflect
    > the views or opinions of any other person, entity, or organization.
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    > To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
    >
    >
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    > To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
    >
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    Yet another reason:

    kd> !patch pnpqueue
    Patches applied.
    c0000005 Exception in kdextx86.patch debugger extension.
    PC: 7800d298 VA: 300c0004 R/W: 1 Parameter: 0001001f


    This is quality!
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    Your last para there is so 'right on the money' that it boggles the mind.

    Bill

    == SCSI Adapters & VirtualSCSI Target Mode Libs ==
    Advanced Storage Concepts, Inc. (409) 744-2129
    2720 Terminal Drive [email protected]
    Galveston, TX 77554 USA www.virtualscsi.com



    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected]
    [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Jan Bottorff
    Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 11:15 AM
    To: NT Developers Interest List
    Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available


    >A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is now available at
    http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/. This is the same >debugger
    package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon spoke about.

    I downloaded and played with this a bit. It looks pretty questionable it
    will save me any time over struggling with the old WinDBG, until it gets
    more mature. For example, QuickWatch for browsing structures seems not to
    function. On the bright side, after a couple cycles of booting, the new
    debugger eventually found the symbols for my driver, and actually stopped
    at a breakpoint.

    Still just amazes me that a company could spend 2 billion dollars on OS
    development and not have an extreemly great kernel debugger, fully debugged
    BEFORE writing a zillion lines of new kernel code.

    - Jan


    ---
    You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    SoftIce rules!

    Jamey

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: [email protected]
    > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Bill Casey
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 1:16 PM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    >
    > Your last para there is so 'right on the money' that it boggles the mind.
    >
    > Bill
    >
    > == SCSI Adapters & VirtualSCSI Target Mode Libs ==
    > Advanced Storage Concepts, Inc. (409) 744-2129
    > 2720 Terminal Drive [email protected]
    > Galveston, TX 77554 USA www.virtualscsi.com
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: [email protected]
    > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Jan Bottorff
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 11:15 AM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    >
    > >A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is now available at
    > http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/. This is the same >debugger
    > package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon spoke about.
    >
    > I downloaded and played with this a bit. It looks pretty questionable it
    > will save me any time over struggling with the old WinDBG, until it gets
    > more mature. For example, QuickWatch for browsing structures seems not to
    > function. On the bright side, after a couple cycles of booting, the new
    > debugger eventually found the symbols for my driver, and actually stopped
    > at a breakpoint.
    >
    > Still just amazes me that a company could spend 2 billion dollars on OS
    > development and not have an extreemly great kernel debugger,
    > fully debugged
    > BEFORE writing a zillion lines of new kernel code.
    >
    > - Jan
    >
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    > To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
    >
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    > To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
    >
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    Maybe that's why it COST $2 billion dollars.... Maybe if they'd had a decent
    debugger....

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: [email protected]
    > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Bill Casey
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 3:16 PM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    >
    > Your last para there is so 'right on the money' that it boggles the mind.
    >
    > Bill
    >
    > == SCSI Adapters & VirtualSCSI Target Mode Libs ==
    > Advanced Storage Concepts, Inc. (409) 744-2129
    > 2720 Terminal Drive [email protected]
    > Galveston, TX 77554 USA www.virtualscsi.com
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: [email protected]
    > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Jan Bottorff
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 11:15 AM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    >
    > >A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is now available at
    > http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/. This is the same >debugger
    > package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon spoke about.
    >
    > I downloaded and played with this a bit. It looks pretty questionable it
    > will save me any time over struggling with the old WinDBG, until it gets
    > more mature. For example, QuickWatch for browsing structures seems not to
    > function. On the bright side, after a couple cycles of booting, the new
    > debugger eventually found the symbols for my driver, and actually stopped
    > at a breakpoint.
    >
    > Still just amazes me that a company could spend 2 billion dollars on OS
    > development and not have an extreemly great kernel debugger,
    > fully debugged
    > BEFORE writing a zillion lines of new kernel code.
    >
    > - Jan
    >
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    > To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
    >
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    > To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
    >
  • Could you please send me a crash dump of the failure?

    You can user dr watson to make the dump, or catch the failure in another
    instance of the debugger and do a ".dump filename"

    Thanks

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Roddy, Mark [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 12:32 PM
    To: NT Developers Interest List
    Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available




    Yet another reason:

    kd> !patch pnpqueue
    Patches applied.
    c0000005 Exception in kdextx86.patch debugger extension.
    PC: 7800d298 VA: 300c0004 R/W: 1 Parameter: 0001001f


    This is quality!



    ---
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    To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
  • Frankly, I've always been a bit surprised at
    the heat the Microsoft has taken for Windbg.
    There is no question that it is buggy, but
    what are you comparing it to?

    The last time I did development on Solaris, the
    only kernel debugger available was an assembly-level
    debugger. From what I hear, Novell is the same.
    Source-level debugging with Linux is possible, but
    not at all trivial.

    What OS was developed with a better set of
    debugging tools?

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Bill Casey <[email protected]>
    To: NT Developers Interest List <[email protected]>
    Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 1:16 PM
    Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available


    > Your last para there is so 'right on the money' that it boggles the mind.
    >
    > Bill
    >
    > == SCSI Adapters & VirtualSCSI Target Mode Libs ==
    > Advanced Storage Concepts, Inc. (409) 744-2129
    > 2720 Terminal Drive [email protected]
    > Galveston, TX 77554 USA www.virtualscsi.com
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: [email protected]
    > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Jan Bottorff
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 11:15 AM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    >
    > >A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is now available at
    > http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/. This is the same >debugger
    > package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon spoke about.
    >
    > I downloaded and played with this a bit. It looks pretty questionable it
    > will save me any time over struggling with the old WinDBG, until it gets
    > more mature. For example, QuickWatch for browsing structures seems not to
    > function. On the bright side, after a couple cycles of booting, the new
    > debugger eventually found the symbols for my driver, and actually stopped
    > at a breakpoint.
    >
    > Still just amazes me that a company could spend 2 billion dollars on OS
    > development and not have an extreemly great kernel debugger, fully
    debugged
    > BEFORE writing a zillion lines of new kernel code.
    >
    > - Jan
    >
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
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  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    Tandem/Compaq NonStop Kernel, to name one.


    At 13:38 2000-04-27 -0700, you wrote:

    >What OS was developed with a better set of
    >debugging tools?
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    I'd have to agree. With SoftIce upwards of $1300 I'm pretty happy with
    Windbg. Besides, as far as I've been told Softice can't debug boot drivers.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Peter Craft [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 1:39 PM
    To: NT Developers Interest List
    Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available



    Frankly, I've always been a bit surprised at
    the heat the Microsoft has taken for Windbg.
    There is no question that it is buggy, but
    what are you comparing it to?

    The last time I did development on Solaris, the
    only kernel debugger available was an assembly-level
    debugger. From what I hear, Novell is the same.
    Source-level debugging with Linux is possible, but
    not at all trivial.

    What OS was developed with a better set of
    debugging tools?

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Bill Casey <[email protected]>
    To: NT Developers Interest List <[email protected]>
    Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 1:16 PM
    Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available


    > Your last para there is so 'right on the money' that it boggles the mind.
    >
    > Bill
    >
    > == SCSI Adapters & VirtualSCSI Target Mode Libs ==
    > Advanced Storage Concepts, Inc. (409) 744-2129
    > 2720 Terminal Drive [email protected]
    > Galveston, TX 77554 USA www.virtualscsi.com
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: [email protected]
    > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Jan Bottorff
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 11:15 AM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    >
    > >A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is now available at
    > http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/. This is the same >debugger
    > package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon spoke about.
    >
    > I downloaded and played with this a bit. It looks pretty questionable it
    > will save me any time over struggling with the old WinDBG, until it gets
    > more mature. For example, QuickWatch for browsing structures seems not to
    > function. On the bright side, after a couple cycles of booting, the new
    > debugger eventually found the symbols for my driver, and actually stopped
    > at a breakpoint.
    >
    > Still just amazes me that a company could spend 2 billion dollars on OS
    > development and not have an extreemly great kernel debugger, fully
    debugged
    > BEFORE writing a zillion lines of new kernel code.
    >
    > - Jan
    >
    >
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  • David_J._CraigDavid_J._Craig Member Posts: 1,885
    You have been told wrong! I use DriverStudio's SoftIce on 95, 98, 98SE,
    NT4, W2K, and have used it on DOS and previous Windows. I like the single
    machine debugging. At higher resolutions you can get a useful amount of
    data on the screen. Boot drivers are a little more work if you don't have a
    fully supported video card.

    We use VtoolsD and Driver::Works for our products. We have a million+
    copies of our software on the market with our hardware. It is very nice to
    have NuMega's tools to help.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Nemiroff, Daniel" <[email protected]>
    To: "NT Developers Interest List" <[email protected]>
    Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 7:07 PM
    Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available


    > I'd have to agree. With SoftIce upwards of $1300 I'm pretty happy with
    > Windbg. Besides, as far as I've been told Softice can't debug boot
    drivers.
  • Mark_RoddyMark_Roddy Member - All Emails Posts: 4,575
    So I went home after my frustrating experience with the NEW! IMPROVED!
    windbag on NT4 SP6 that couldn't even open a source file and tried it out on
    W2K B2195. Oh what a surprise, Open Source File works on that version of
    Windows.

    So fine, I can open a source file. And after depositing the pdb files into
    the symbol path, which I never had to do before, I could actually set a
    breakpoint from a source window! Wow! Too bad the breakpoint, and every
    other breakpoint I set was totally non-functional.

    My earlier comments remain confirmed. This is an atrocity. Don't waste your
    time.


    Mark Roddy
    Windows 2000/NT Consultant
    Hollis Technology Solutions
    www.hollistech.com
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    I tried to download it but the zip file is damaged. Can somebody
    sent me the zip file?

    thanks,
    Rob

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jan Bottorff [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 7:23 PM
    To: NT Developers Interest List
    Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available


    >A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is now available at
    http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/. This is the same >debugger
    package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon spoke about.

    I downloaded and played with this a bit. It looks pretty questionable it
    will save me any time over struggling with the old WinDBG, until it gets
    more mature. For example, QuickWatch for browsing structures seems not to
    function. On the bright side, after a couple cycles of booting, the new
    debugger eventually found the symbols for my driver, and actually stopped
    at a breakpoint.

    Still just amazes me that a company could spend 2 billion dollars on OS
    development and not have an extreemly great kernel debugger, fully debugged
    BEFORE writing a zillion lines of new kernel code.

    - Jan


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  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    I agree with Mark and all of you about the shortages of WinDbag.
    I have so much disappointment after so much investigation of time and nerve
    into WinDbag, though Windbg Win 2000 RC2 till pre release NEW IMPROVED
    Windbg, without success.
    Now I am returning back since months to the primitive but successfull way of
    driver debugging under Win2K as at the stone time of programming:
    1. With a properly design of the driver.
    2. With the use of DbgPrint and Russinovich?s DbgView

    SoftICE is good but my methode is better enough to help me spare time and
    nerve ($1300 ignored)

    Huu Dung Nguyen
    > ----------
    > From: Mark Roddy[SMTP:[email protected]]
    > Reply To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 4:05 AM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    >
    > So I went home after my frustrating experience with the NEW! IMPROVED!
    > windbag on NT4 SP6 that couldn't even open a source file and tried it out
    > on
    > W2K B2195. Oh what a surprise, Open Source File works on that version of
    > Windows.
    >
    > So fine, I can open a source file. And after depositing the pdb files into
    > the symbol path, which I never had to do before, I could actually set a
    > breakpoint from a source window! Wow! Too bad the breakpoint, and every
    > other breakpoint I set was totally non-functional.
    >
    > My earlier comments remain confirmed. This is an atrocity. Don't waste
    > your
    > time.
    >
    >
    > Mark Roddy
    > Windows 2000/NT Consultant
    > Hollis Technology Solutions
    > www.hollistech.com
    >
    >
    >
    >
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    Yeah, if you only have to work with drivers that load AFTER softice ...


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jamey Kirby [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 1:20 PM
    To: NT Developers Interest List
    Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New
    Windbg available

    SoftIce rules!

    Jamey

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: [email protected]
    > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Bill
    Casey
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 1:16 PM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg
    available
    >
    >
    > Your last para there is so 'right on the money' that it
    boggles the mind.
    >
    > Bill
    >
    > == SCSI Adapters & VirtualSCSI Target Mode Libs ==
    > Advanced Storage Concepts, Inc. (409) 744-2129
    > 2720 Terminal Drive [email protected]
    > Galveston, TX 77554 USA www.virtualscsi.com
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: [email protected]
    > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Jan
    Bottorff
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 11:15 AM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg
    available
    >
    >
    > >A pre-release version of the new NT debugging tools is
    now available at
    > http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/. This is the same
    >debugger
    > package that is available at WinHEC that Andre Vashon
    spoke about.
    >
    > I downloaded and played with this a bit. It looks pretty
    questionable it
    > will save me any time over struggling with the old WinDBG,
    until it gets
    > more mature. For example, QuickWatch for browsing
    structures seems not to
    > function. On the bright side, after a couple cycles of
    booting, the new
    > debugger eventually found the symbols for my driver, and
    actually stopped
    > at a breakpoint.
    >
    > Still just amazes me that a company could spend 2 billion
    dollars on OS
    > development and not have an extreemly great kernel
    debugger,
    > fully debugged
    > BEFORE writing a zillion lines of new kernel code.
    >
    > - Jan
    >
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
    $subst('Email.Unsub')
    >
    >
    > ---
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    [email protected]
    > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    Oh, lighten up Mark. It was advertised as a pre-release. The real test will
    be whether they will fix the bugs found in the pre-release, and end up giving us
    a usable version, or they will continue moving the bugs around as they have in all
    prior versions. [Of course, I'm betting that they are afraid of Numega suing
    them if they produce a working version, and give it away for free. Therefore
    they will continue to only give out pre-release versions. ]

    And besides, if you were good, you'd be able to write software that would
    work the first time, and you won't need no stinking debugger....
    -DH

    PS. Even if it actually functioned as designed, why would you build a kernel
    debugger that does not give you a useful stack trace when an illegal
    address is referenced?

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Mark Roddy" <[email protected]>
    To: "NT Developers Interest List" <[email protected]>
    Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 10:05 PM
    Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available


    >
    > So I went home after my frustrating experience with the NEW! IMPROVED!
    > windbag on NT4 SP6 that couldn't even open a source file and tried it out on
    > W2K B2195. Oh what a surprise, Open Source File works on that version of
    > Windows.
    >
    > So fine, I can open a source file. And after depositing the pdb files into
    > the symbol path, which I never had to do before, I could actually set a
    > breakpoint from a source window! Wow! Too bad the breakpoint, and every
    > other breakpoint I set was totally non-functional.
    >
    > My earlier comments remain confirmed. This is an atrocity. Don't waste your
    > time.
    >
    >
    > Mark Roddy
    > Windows 2000/NT Consultant
    > Hollis Technology Solutions
    > www.hollistech.com
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    > To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
    >
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    >
    > Oh, lighten up Mark. It was advertised as a pre-release.
    > The real test will
    > be whether they will fix the bugs found in the pre-release,
    > and end up giving us
    > a usable version, or they will continue moving the bugs
    > around as they have in all
    > prior versions.


    I'm all light and you're all light too. The debugger sucks.
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    And speaking of fixing bugs, be sure to mail bugs you find to
    [email protected] with repro situation and version number, etc. If you
    consider it a serious blocking issue, feel free to mail me as well.

    For the record, the download site (2nd) below has the beta. It is meant to
    work with NT4 and beyond.

    > Bill Stuart
    > Microsoft, Program Manager, Windows Systems Developer Support
    > engineering support for core software and hardware developers
    > http://support.microsoft.com/support/ddk - DDK support pages
    > http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/ - download DDK's
    > http://www.microsoft.com/support/customer/develop.htm - Support options
    > http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/ - general hardware development
    > http://www.microsoft.com/mswish/ - make a product wish - choose DDK
    > category
    sort

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Dave Harvey [SMTP:[email protected]]
    > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 10:07 AM
    > To: NT Developers Interest List
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    > Oh, lighten up Mark. It was advertised as a pre-release. The real test
    > will
    > be whether they will fix the bugs found in the pre-release, and end up
    > giving us
    > a usable version, or they will continue moving the bugs around as they
    > have in all
    > prior versions. [Of course, I'm betting that they are afraid of Numega
    > suing
    > them if they produce a working version, and give it away for free.
    > Therefore
    > they will continue to only give out pre-release versions. ]
    >
    > And besides, if you were good, you'd be able to write software that would
    > work the first time, and you won't need no stinking debugger....
    > -DH
    >
    > PS. Even if it actually functioned as designed, why would you build a
    > kernel
    > debugger that does not give you a useful stack trace when an illegal
    > address is referenced?
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Mark Roddy"
    > To: "NT Developers Interest List"
    > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 10:05 PM
    > Subject: [ntdev] Re: Pre-release version of New Windbg available
    >
    >
    > >
    > > So I went home after my frustrating experience with the NEW! IMPROVED!
    > > windbag on NT4 SP6 that couldn't even open a source file and tried it
    > out on
    > > W2K B2195. Oh what a surprise, Open Source File works on that version of
    > > Windows.
    > >
    > > So fine, I can open a source file. And after depositing the pdb files
    > into
    > > the symbol path, which I never had to do before, I could actually set a
    > > breakpoint from a source window! Wow! Too bad the breakpoint, and every
    > > other breakpoint I set was totally non-functional.
    > >
    > > My earlier comments remain confirmed. This is an atrocity. Don't waste
    > your
    > > time.
    > >
    > >
    > > Mark Roddy
    > > Windows 2000/NT Consultant
    > > Hollis Technology Solutions
    > > www.hollistech.com
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > ---
    > > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
    > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
    > >
    >
    >
    > ---
    > You are currently subscribed to ntdev as: [email protected]
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  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,217
    > I'd have to agree. With SoftIce upwards of $1300 I'm pretty happy with
    > Windbg. Besides, as far as I've been told Softice can't debug boot
    drivers.

    Yes, because it will be unable to load symbol files till the boot FS will be
    up.
    But:
    - this is for DriverEntry only. Other functions will be OK.
    - there is a workaround called IcePack which packs symbol tables to another
    boot driver and makes them accessible for SI.

    Max
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