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WDK for Visual Studio 2019?

RourkeRourke Member Posts: 31

Now that VS2109 is released is there an appropriate WDK available to use with it?

Comments

  • Tim_RobertsTim_Roberts Member - All Emails Posts: 12,966
    via Email
    On Apr 15, 2019, at 6:31 PM, Rourke wrote:
    >
    > Now that VS2109 is released is there an appropriate WDK available to use with it?

    There is a "preview" WDK, but it hasn't been released yet.

    Tim Roberts, [email protected]
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

    Tim Roberts, [email protected]
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

  • RourkeRourke Member Posts: 31

    I and I suspect others at this juncture don't want to preview, but rather wish to ship drivers using the improved VS2019 experience. Is there any idea when the WDK for VS2019 will be released?

  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211
    edited April 16

    If past experience is a predictor, there is usually a WDK that accompanies each OS release.

    I do not remember a WDK, or a DDK before it, ever being shipped in absence of an OS release.

    Peter

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

  • Pavel_APavel_A Member Posts: 2,670

    News about WDKs usually are announced in the MSDN WDK forum.
    https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/home?forum=wdk

    -- pa

  • RourkeRourke Member Posts: 31

    Odd they put up the preview early enough, but apparently made a decision not to RTM the WDK in time for a parallel release with VS2019 which would have been logical and welcome. In light of this decision it is strange they have not communicated any sort of timeline about RTM and left the poor developers hunting in vain trying to figure this out. I guess they are too busy with higher priorities to be bothered right now. Perhaps they are all working overtime on ever more ways to torture us with driver signing.

  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211

    Odd they put up the preview early enough, but apparently made a decision not to RTM the WDK in time for a parallel release with VS2019

    Did you miss my reply above?

    Again, I repeat: The WDK releases when a new version of Windows ships. The WDK is not phased with Visual Studio releases. If you stop for a second and think about it, this makes sense: The primary content of the WDK are the headers and libs, and these need to match a specific version of the OS. The “goo” that connects the WDK with VS is simply part of the underlying infrastructure, and of secondary importance.

    We primarily need a new WDK to get the new headers and libs that support new, updated, and corrected features in a new OS release... and the associated HLKs so we can logo new drivers for the new release.

    You might note that VS, Windows, and the WDK are roughly on the same release cycle, but only roughly.

    Finally, you should note that the WDK makes preview releases available regularly. This allows you to test the upcoming WDK and associated VS version. From long experience, i would strongly recommend that you only do this in a VM. Don’t install prerelease versions of either VS or the WDK on your dev system. There have been many, many, cases where it’s been impossible to remove these properly once installed (and eventually necessitating reinstalling the whole system).

    So... next WDK will come with the next version of Windows.... as it has for, oh, the last 25 years or so.

    Peter

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

  • Tim_RobertsTim_Roberts Member - All Emails Posts: 12,966
    via Email
    Rourke wrote:
    > Odd they put up the preview early enough, but apparently made a decision not to RTM the WDK in time for a parallel release with VS2019 which would have been logical and welcome.

    Please relax.  These products are all produced by different teams with
    different time scales.  As a rule, driver writers tend to be very
    skeptical of new tools, and are usually not on the "bleeding edge". 
    That's partly because we've all been burned when some flashy new feature
    or clever optimization screwed up our carefully crafted drivers.  I, for
    one, am still using Visual Studio 2015 to build all of my drivers.

    Tim Roberts, [email protected]
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

  • RourkeRourke Member Posts: 31

    Speaking in terms of legacy I agree with what you are saying. But this isn't legacy like the days when the WDK was completely isolated from VS. Last year Microsoft made a bulletin that they were updating the WDK for VS2019, not a new OS. Seemed natural enough. Such a release would have great value for those that wish to leverage the improved development experience we've waited eagerly for years to get. I find it strange they went to the work of making the preview, told everyone about it, then went to complete silence about it. There is nothing wrong with releasing a WDK anytime a new OS comes out and in fact it's necessary. But if Microsoft's policy is to simply ignore new releases of VS then I think they should review this decision. Being stuck on yesterdays tools while the other development areas in the world give their developers the option of moving on to newer and better things is telling.

    Regardless, it certainly would be good manners if the WDK download page has just a single sentence briefing the status of VS2019 so people can understand what's going on. There seems to be no announcement anywhere about this. There should be no need to draw upon decades of experiences to form a conclusion as you have to formulate an opinion and you may well be right. I am still uncertain what is going to happen and when.

  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211
    edited April 18

    I am still uncertain what is going to happen and when.

    So... Why post here if you won’t believe what we tell you?

    It’s a natural enough question, right? You ask, we answer, you don’t believe what we say. So, like, why ask here?

    Peter

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

  • RourkeRourke Member Posts: 31

    I guess you missed the first sentence where I said I agree with you.

  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211
    edited April 18

    Well, no... your sentence starts “Speaking in terms of legacy”.

    That’s disregarding what I’m telling you. And it makes me wonder why you bother asking here. I didn’t answer you “in terms of legacy” ... I tried, obviously unsuccessfully, to explain to you why the WDK releases the way it does. But, you don’t seem to believe what I say... so... why ask?

    I dunno, dude, maybe it’s just ME you don’t believe, maybe Mr. Roberts will give you an answer you consider definitive.

    But, nobody here can give you the WDK release schedule because, you know, it’s an NDA item, right? Software release dates... before it’s released?

    Peter

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211

    Aside from annoying me, you did make a good point:

    Regardless, it certainly would be good manners if the WDK download page has just a single sentence briefing the status of VS2019 so people can understand what's going on.

    At least in this we can agree.

    I fail to understand the persistent lack of communication in the driver space.

    Peter

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

  • RourkeRourke Member Posts: 31

    A new WDK supporting VS2019 was released 2 hours ago.

  • rstruempfrstruempf Member Posts: 103

    @Rourke said:
    A new WDK supporting VS2019 was released 2 hours ago.

    YAY! Because I was going to say, if the WDK version is tied to the OS release, WHY doesn't VS2019 work with older WDKs that are commensurate with the OS I am running? The preview release doesn't like my computer yet. :(

    Now to go find the WDK that will work with VS2019. Thanks for the announcement. I have zero Windows Insider or VS Enterprise subscription notifications of this release.

    _Ron

  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211

    Yup. Just after Windows 1903 was released to MSDN.

    Funny the way that works.

    Peter

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211

    As a side note:

    Be aware that the XP toolset has been removed from VS 2019... so if you want to build (native) apps the run on XP, you will not be able to use VS 2019.

    Peter

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

  • anton_bassovanton_bassov Member Posts: 4,984

    So... next WDK will come with the next version of Windows.... as it has for, oh, the last 25 years or so.

    I read somewhere that MSFT were not planning to release any Windows versions beyond Windows 10. Certainly, it does not mean that no updates will ever be released, by they are going to be branded just as Windows 10 updates, rather than the new OS versions. If this is true, then I would expect newer WDK versions to more or less match these OS updates, which may, in turn, have some correspondence with the new VS releases....

    Anton Bassov

  • Tim_RobertsTim_Roberts Member - All Emails Posts: 12,966
    via Email
    anton_bassov wrote:
    >
    > I read somewhere that MSFT were not planning to release any Windows versions beyond Windows 10.

    Yes, but that's just marketing fluff trying to control the
    conversation.  We all know that many of these semiannual "updates"
    actually represent new Windows versions.  For example, I think it is
    significant that the release we call Windows 10 1809 also goes by the
    brand new name Windows Server 2019.

    Tim Roberts, [email protected]
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

  • rstruempfrstruempf Member Posts: 103

    As far as Visual Studio and the new SDK and WDK are concerned, IMHO, the formal release of Visual Studio without these components was just a partial release, so it was still a preview release until last night. They could have supported an older, released version of SDK and WDK, and the product would have been whole. Then the SDK and WDK tied to the OS version could have been freely released with the OS update without having crippled Visual Studio.

  • anton_bassovanton_bassov Member Posts: 4,984

    Yes, but that's just marketing fluff trying to control the conversation.

    Sure, but what this "marketing fluff" actually means as far as WDK is concerned is that the "OS update - new WDK version" relationship may, probably, get more blurred in the future. Up to this point, this correspondence has been very straightforward, but things may change now.
    I would not get too surprised if they start, for the marketing reasons, matching WDK versions to the VS ones. In fact, according to Mr.Rourke's post, things seem to have actually started working this way...

    Anton Bassov

  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211

    In fact, according to Mr.Rourke's post, things seem to have actually started working this way...

    Ah... no. The WDK was released several hours after Windows 1903 was released. Exactly as I said it would be.

    Get over it, people. We get a new WDK when we get a new version of Windows. And that WDK works on whatever the latest version of VS is at the time. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

    As far as Visual Studio and the new SDK and WDK are concerned, IMHO, the formal release of Visual Studio without these components was just a partial release, so it was still a preview release until last night.

    There are several million devs who don’t ever install either the WDK or the SDK... I hardly think they would view it as a preview. Also, you might want to note that the SDK was made available with a “go live” license, which typically means it was actually pre-release bits.

    Peter

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

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