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The Move to a New Home

Peter_Viscarola_via_gmail_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_via_gmail_(OSR) Member - All Emails Posts: 9
List Members,

The OSR Lists, all of them (except NTTALK, which is being discontinued),
will be moving to a new home next month.

The first in a short series of posts about the move, what it means and how
it will be accomplished, is on the OSR's Developer's Blog:



Hope you find it informative, and I look forward (I think?) to your
feedback.

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers

Comments

  • anton_bassovanton_bassov Member Posts: 4,983
    <quote>

    <https://www.osr.com/blog/2018/07/28/moving-ntdev-ntfsd-windbg-whats-next/>;

    Hope you find it informative, and I look forward (I think?) to your feedback.

    </quote>



    <ironical mode>

    Well, it does not seem to say anything about the "scary" (at least for me) new functionality,
    does it....

    Therefore, my main question remains unanswered...

    </ironical mode>


    Anton Bassov
  • Tim_RobertsTim_Roberts Member - All Emails Posts: 12,965
    On Jul 28, 2018, at 9:28 AM, Peter Viscarola xxxxx@lists.osr.com wrote:
    >
    > The OSR Lists, all of them (except NTTALK, which is being discontinued), will be moving to a new home next month.
    >
    > The first in a short series of posts about the move, what it means and how it will be accomplished, is on the OSR's Developer's Blog:
    >
    > >
    >
    > Hope you find it informative, and I look forward (I think?) to your feedback.

    Besides the minor things that I'm sure I will learn to deal with, my only real concern is this line:
    When we do the move, we’ll move all the history (threads and posts) starting from 1 January 2010 to the present. We will not move any history before that.
    There is incredibly valuable information in the early history of these mailing lists, information that is still applicable and isn't necessarily available in any other places. I understand the burden of porting and carrying forward that much data, but in the end, it's really just disk space, isn't it?

    I suppose it doesn't really have to be a part of the live interface, but if there were a good way to make those threads available in a Google-searchable way, I think it would be a huge benefit for the industry.

    Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

    Tim Roberts, [email protected]
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211
    Mr. Bassov:

    See the following:

    <https://www.osr.com/wp-content/uploads/ModOptions.png>;

    The "Troll" option isn't checked in your profile... yet:

    <https://www.osr.com/wp-content/uploads/Anton.png>;

    Mr. Roberts:

    <quote>
    There is incredibly valuable information in the early history of these mailing
    lists, information that is still applicable and isn't necessarily available in
    any other places.
    </quote>

    I posted this not even three hours ago, and you're the SECOND person to suggest/request that we expand what we're moving.

    We chose 1 January 2010 as the starting point of the archives to port totally arbitrarily. I, personally, have trouble believing that a lot of posts made back in 2000 are still relevant.

    Do folks REALLY think posts back "to the beginning" (which is, effectively, the year 2000) are valuable enough that we should port them?

    <quote>
    in the end, it's really just disk space, isn't it?
    </quote>

    Well, "yes, no, maybe" -- In the end, it's all bits in the ether somewhere. Probably on S3/EBS/AWS (cuz, you know, isn't everything?)

    But, remember, we're not having some intern take an afternoon to spin up a RHEL server on Azure, install some shitty Open Source mailing list software, and tell the community to "enjoy your new home." We're trying to move to a platform that's going to be professionally run and supported, and work for us all now and into the future.

    So... it REALLY all comes down to money in the end. Believe me when I tell you that (I hate to be crass, but) this move, and the ongoing support of the site, is costing us a TON of cash. I don't know how moving another 10 years worth of archives is going to impact the overall cost of the migration.

    If people really think it'd be valuable, I guess I can find out.

    You all wanna kick-in five bucks? If every list member wanted to donate five dollars we could probably do it. I'll start a GoFundMe...

    No, that was absolutely not serious.

    But I *am* serious about wanting to know how far back in time people think the archives will be valuable. Back to 2005? Back to 2000?

    Peter
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

  • Jamey_KirbyJamey_Kirby Member - All Emails Posts: 428
    >> Probably on S3/EBS/AWS (cuz, you know, isn't everything)?

    Surely more than should be. I avoid Amazon like the plague. Literally
    everything about Google Cloud is better than Amazon; including only
    supporting the bare minimal Windows offerings. Their network is larger,
    faster, more secure, &c. But I digress.

    Surely we do not want OSR to bleed on this conversion, but wow, what an
    archive. It should be preserved and searchable somewhere; even if not part
    of the active list. I wonder how that can be achieved?


    On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 3:14 PM xxxxx@osr.com wrote:

    > Mr. Bassov:
    >
    > See the following:
    >
    >
    >
    > The "Troll" option isn't checked in your profile... yet:
    >
    >
    >
    > Mr. Roberts:
    >
    >
    > There is incredibly valuable information in the early history of these
    > mailing
    > lists, information that is still applicable and isn't necessarily
    > available in
    > any other places.
    >
    >
    > I posted this not even three hours ago, and you're the SECOND person to
    > suggest/request that we expand what we're moving.
    >
    > We chose 1 January 2010 as the starting point of the archives to port
    > totally arbitrarily. I, personally, have trouble believing that a lot of
    > posts made back in 2000 are still relevant.
    >
    > Do folks REALLY think posts back "to the beginning" (which is,
    > effectively, the year 2000) are valuable enough that we should port them?
    >
    >
    > in the end, it's really just disk space, isn't it?
    >
    >
    > Well, "yes, no, maybe" -- In the end, it's all bits in the ether
    > somewhere. Probably on S3/EBS/AWS (cuz, you know, isn't everything?)
    >
    > But, remember, we're not having some intern take an afternoon to spin up a
    > RHEL server on Azure, install some shitty Open Source mailing list
    > software, and tell the community to "enjoy your new home." We're trying to
    > move to a platform that's going to be professionally run and supported, and
    > work for us all now and into the future.
    >
    > So... it REALLY all comes down to money in the end. Believe me when I
    > tell you that (I hate to be crass, but) this move, and the ongoing support
    > of the site, is costing us a TON of cash. I don't know how moving another
    > 10 years worth of archives is going to impact the overall cost of the
    > migration.
    >
    > If people really think it'd be valuable, I guess I can find out.
    >
    > You all wanna kick-in five bucks? If every list member wanted to donate
    > five dollars we could probably do it. I'll start a GoFundMe...
    >
    > No, that was absolutely not serious.
    >
    > But I *am* serious about wanting to know how far back in time people think
    > the archives will be valuable. Back to 2005? Back to 2000?
    >
    > Peter
    > OSR
    > @OSRDrivers
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ---
    > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
    >
    > Visit the list online at: <
    > http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev>;
    >
    > MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
    > software drivers!
    > Details at
    >
    > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
    > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer>;
    >


    --
    Jamey Kirby
    Disrupting the establishment since 1964

    *This is a personal email account and as such, emails are not subject to
    archiving. Nothing else really matters.*
  • Prokash_SinhaProkash_Sinha Member - All Emails Posts: 197
    <>

    But I *am* serious about wanting to know how far back in time people think the archives will be valuable. Back to 2005? Back to 2000?
    </>

    IIRC 2000 ( Win2K) was first when DDK and FSDK became popular. Prior to that I don’t know, only used IOCTL driver and virtual device support.

    If it does not bleed, wouldn’t be a good idea to store them. If you see there is not much value that warrants keeping it, may be 2005 onward would be logical.

    </>

    -Pro

    > On Jul 28, 2018, at 1:33 PM, xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
    >
    > >> Probably on S3/EBS/AWS (cuz, you know, isn't everything)?
    >
    > Surely more than should be. I avoid Amazon like the plague. Literally everything about Google Cloud is better than Amazon; including only supporting the bare minimal Windows offerings. Their network is larger, faster, more secure, &c. But I digress.
    >
    > Surely we do not want OSR to bleed on this conversion, but wow, what an archive. It should be preserved and searchable somewhere; even if not part of the active list. I wonder how that can be achieved?
    >
    >
    > On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 3:14 PM xxxxx@osr.com > wrote:
    > Mr. Bassov:
    >
    > See the following:
    >
    > >
    >
    > The "Troll" option isn't checked in your profile... yet:
    >
    > >
    >
    > Mr. Roberts:
    >
    >
    > There is incredibly valuable information in the early history of these mailing
    > lists, information that is still applicable and isn't necessarily available in
    > any other places.
    >
    >
    > I posted this not even three hours ago, and you're the SECOND person to suggest/request that we expand what we're moving.
    >
    > We chose 1 January 2010 as the starting point of the archives to port totally arbitrarily. I, personally, have trouble believing that a lot of posts made back in 2000 are still relevant.
    >
    > Do folks REALLY think posts back "to the beginning" (which is, effectively, the year 2000) are valuable enough that we should port them?
    >
    >
    > in the end, it's really just disk space, isn't it?
    >
    >
    > Well, "yes, no, maybe" -- In the end, it's all bits in the ether somewhere. Probably on S3/EBS/AWS (cuz, you know, isn't everything?)
    >
    > But, remember, we're not having some intern take an afternoon to spin up a RHEL server on Azure, install some shitty Open Source mailing list software, and tell the community to "enjoy your new home." We're trying to move to a platform that's going to be professionally run and supported, and work for us all now and into the future.
    >
    > So... it REALLY all comes down to money in the end. Believe me when I tell you that (I hate to be crass, but) this move, and the ongoing support of the site, is costing us a TON of cash. I don't know how moving another 10 years worth of archives is going to impact the overall cost of the migration.
    >
    > If people really think it'd be valuable, I guess I can find out.
    >
    > You all wanna kick-in five bucks? If every list member wanted to donate five dollars we could probably do it. I'll start a GoFundMe...
    >
    > No, that was absolutely not serious.
    >
    > But I *am* serious about wanting to know how far back in time people think the archives will be valuable. Back to 2005? Back to 2000?
    >
    > Peter
    > OSR
    > @OSRDrivers
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ---
    > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
    >
    > Visit the list online at: >
    >
    > MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
    > Details at >
    >
    > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Jamey Kirby
    > Disrupting the establishment since 1964
    >
    > This is a personal email account and as such, emails are not subject to archiving. Nothing else really matters.
    > --- NTDEV is sponsored by OSR Visit the list online at: MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers! Details at To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
  • Jamey_KirbyJamey_Kirby Member - All Emails Posts: 428
    I could have sworn I started following this list in 1997 when I started
    working with NT 4.0 drivers. I remember going to an OSR conference in NoCal
    around that time. I am getting old, so I could be remembering incorrectly.

    On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 4:44 PM xxxxx@gmail.com
    wrote:

    > <>
    >
    > But I *am* serious about wanting to know how far back in time people think
    > the archives will be valuable. Back to 2005? Back to 2000?
    > </>
    >
    > IIRC 2000 ( Win2K) was first when DDK and FSDK became popular. Prior to
    > that I don’t know, only used IOCTL driver and virtual device support.
    >
    > If it does not bleed, wouldn’t be a good idea to store them. If you see
    > there is not much value that warrants keeping it, may be 2005 onward would
    > be logical.
    >
    > </>
    >
    > -Pro
    >
    > On Jul 28, 2018, at 1:33 PM, xxxxx@gmail.com
    > wrote:
    >
    > >> Probably on S3/EBS/AWS (cuz, you know, isn't everything)?
    >
    > Surely more than should be. I avoid Amazon like the plague. Literally
    > everything about Google Cloud is better than Amazon; including only
    > supporting the bare minimal Windows offerings. Their network is larger,
    > faster, more secure, &c. But I digress.
    >
    > Surely we do not want OSR to bleed on this conversion, but wow, what an
    > archive. It should be preserved and searchable somewhere; even if not part
    > of the active list. I wonder how that can be achieved?
    >
    >
    > On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 3:14 PM xxxxx@osr.com
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Mr. Bassov:
    >>
    >> See the following:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> The "Troll" option isn't checked in your profile... yet:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Mr. Roberts:
    >>
    >>
    >> There is incredibly valuable information in the early history of these
    >> mailing
    >> lists, information that is still applicable and isn't necessarily
    >> available in
    >> any other places.
    >>
    >>
    >> I posted this not even three hours ago, and you're the SECOND person to
    >> suggest/request that we expand what we're moving.
    >>
    >> We chose 1 January 2010 as the starting point of the archives to port
    >> totally arbitrarily. I, personally, have trouble believing that a lot of
    >> posts made back in 2000 are still relevant.
    >>
    >> Do folks REALLY think posts back "to the beginning" (which is,
    >> effectively, the year 2000) are valuable enough that we should port them?
    >>
    >>
    >> in the end, it's really just disk space, isn't it?
    >>
    >>
    >> Well, "yes, no, maybe" -- In the end, it's all bits in the ether
    >> somewhere. Probably on S3/EBS/AWS (cuz, you know, isn't everything?)
    >>
    >> But, remember, we're not having some intern take an afternoon to spin up
    >> a RHEL server on Azure, install some shitty Open Source mailing list
    >> software, and tell the community to "enjoy your new home." We're trying to
    >> move to a platform that's going to be professionally run and supported, and
    >> work for us all now and into the future.
    >>
    >> So... it REALLY all comes down to money in the end. Believe me when I
    >> tell you that (I hate to be crass, but) this move, and the ongoing support
    >> of the site, is costing us a TON of cash. I don't know how moving another
    >> 10 years worth of archives is going to impact the overall cost of the
    >> migration.
    >>
    >> If people really think it'd be valuable, I guess I can find out.
    >>
    >> You all wanna kick-in five bucks? If every list member wanted to donate
    >> five dollars we could probably do it. I'll start a GoFundMe...
    >>
    >> No, that was absolutely not serious.
    >>
    >> But I *am* serious about wanting to know how far back in time people
    >> think the archives will be valuable. Back to 2005? Back to 2000?
    >>
    >> Peter
    >> OSR
    >> @OSRDrivers
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> ---
    >> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
    >>
    >> Visit the list online at: <
    >> http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev>;
    >>
    >> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
    >> software drivers!
    >> Details at
    >>
    >> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
    >> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer>;
    >>
    >
    >
    > --
    > Jamey Kirby
    > Disrupting the establishment since 1964
    >
    > *This is a personal email account and as such, emails are not subject to
    > archiving. Nothing else really matters.*
    > --- NTDEV is sponsored by OSR Visit the list online at: MONTHLY seminars
    > on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
    > Details at To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
    >
    >
    >
    > ---
    > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
    >
    > Visit the list online at: <
    > http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev>;
    >
    > MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
    > software drivers!
    > Details at
    >
    > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
    > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer>;
    >


    --
    Jamey Kirby
    Disrupting the establishment since 1964

    *This is a personal email account and as such, emails are not subject to
    archiving. Nothing else really matters.*
  • Prokash_Sinha-1Prokash_Sinha-1 Member - All Emails Posts: 1,214
    > On Jul 28, 2018, at 1:57 PM, xxxxx@gmail.com <xxxxx@lists.osr.com> wrote:
    >
    > I could have sworn I started following this list in 1997 when I started working with NT 4.0 drivers. I remember going to an OSR conference in NoCal around that time. I am getting old, so I could be remembering incorrectly.
    >

    Mine was quite interesting :). I started on Win UserMode back in ’94, before OS/2 ( and was dying ).

    Then in 1996/7, I became to be in Maintenance mode ( for the software and myself :). NDIS/ VDM/ and IOCTL devices. What a Journey !!!
    I subscribed to Atria list, not that active then, then to OSR. Bought couple books ( not so satisfied ). Then main thing was to read as much of the HardCopies as possible of NTDev magazine. WSJ ( not the financial one :) ), did not have much of any articles on kernel… I still keep most of those hard copies of NTDev magazines. Lot of appreciation to Peter & Cos.

    Then the NT Device driver book. To me, that was a home run - Cristal clear and to the point. Around ’98, I started to work on some parts where I can contribute, then Windbg thru them…

    In one know company, I told I was working on OS/2, the guy said ( on interview ) R U crazy? It is dying. I said no, just because I could not land a WinKern work as of yet. He laughed.

    Oh well, whatever make sense, and would be the right thing in terms storing the lists’ archives …

    -Pro
  • Tim_RobertsTim_Roberts Member - All Emails Posts: 12,965
    On Jul 28, 2018, at 12:13 PM, xxxxx@osr.com <xxxxx@lists.osr.com> wrote:
    >
    > We chose 1 January 2010 as the starting point of the archives to port totally arbitrarily. I, personally, have trouble believing that a lot of posts made back in 2000 are still relevant.
    >
    > Do folks REALLY think posts back "to the beginning" (which is, effectively, the year 2000) are valuable enough that we should port them?

    Personally, I do, yes. Part of it is principle; once something is on the Internet -- especially something technical -- there's no good reason why it shouldn't be there forever. Part of it is practical. HUGE sections of the Windows NT kernel work basically the same as they did in 1995. Many driver models have a 20-year lifetime. Streaming and multimedia drivers are a good example. We've learned a lot since then, but many of the early experts had words that are still applicable today. I'm thinking specifically of Walter Only, who would be erased from the record by a 2010 cutoff.


    > If people really think it'd be valuable, I guess I can find out.

    It's not my money, of course, but I think it's worth exploring.

    Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

    Tim Roberts, [email protected]
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

  • Chris_ReadChris_Read Member - All Emails Posts: 14
    I also sometimes refer to material from the list which predates 2010. I suspect that there are several people on the list like me who still have to support XP drivers, particularly for embedded systems. One of my customers still has NT4 drivers in the field. The posts from the "dawn of XP" era actually contain some useful information which is still relevant today.

    Best regards

    Chris Read
  • Mark_RousellMark_Rousell Member - All Emails Posts: 4
    On 28/07/2018 20:13, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
    > Mr. Bassov:
    >
    > See the following:
    >
    >
    >
    > The "Troll" option isn't checked in your profile... yet:
    >
    >
    >
    > Mr. Roberts:
    >
    >
    > There is incredibly valuable information in the early history of these mailing
    > lists, information that is still applicable and isn't necessarily available in
    > any other places.
    >
    >
    > I posted this not even three hours ago, and you're the SECOND person to suggest/request that we expand what we're moving.
    >
    > We chose 1 January 2010 as the starting point of the archives to port totally arbitrarily. I, personally, have trouble believing that a lot of posts made back in 2000 are still relevant.
    >
    > Do folks REALLY think posts back "to the beginning" (which is, effectively, the year 2000) are valuable enough that we should port them?

    In what form do you have the archives? If they are standard mbox files
    then it seems to me that just making them available for download might
    be a reasonable compromise.

    I often import mbox files into my local Thunderbird for archival
    reference and searching.

    Thank you also for the detailed blog article explaining what will change
    and how. Realising that full email access to all messages (as is usual
    for mail lists) won't be available to all, at least at the beginning, is
    important to know.

    As an aside, I do understand that forum-first is the way of things for
    online communities today. However, the increasing popularity of pure
    web-based/app-accessed forums at the expense of standardised and/or
    federated access methodologies like email, NNTP, or even RSS/ATOM (at a
    granular/controllable enough level) is bringing home to me a significant
    problem: It is making it difficult for some people to follow the
    communities they might otherwise wish to and previously would have been
    able to. Having to stop one's other workflow and look at a web forum via
    browser or app is far less time-efficient than simply seeing new
    messages appearing in one's mail client, NNTP client, or RSS/ATOM
    client, and being able to comment the same way (via email or NNTP). And
    so I really do thank you for finding a new hosting provider who can
    handle email (even if not all-to-all for everyone to begin with).

    Web-based/app-accessed forums seem fine to me if one is either dipping
    in now and again or if one uses only a few web forums but seem less
    suitable if one is interested in many communities and thus do not have
    time to access multiple different forums (potentially with different
    forum software and looks and feels). Some people think that email or
    NNTP are old fashioned; I think they are simply efficient.

    Anyway, thanks again for the clear communications and for catering for
    those of us who prefer email.


    --
    Mark Rousell
  • Dejan_MaksimovicDejan_Maksimovic Member - All Emails Posts: 224
    For NTFSD, I am sure a lot of the pre 2010 posts are of great value. Not
    just the part that is related to FltMgr, but legacy filter framework as
    well.
    There are still legacy filters around, and there are things that were
    discussed for legacy filters only, but still apply to FltMgr. And then
    there are things that seem to be doable with the legacy model only.

    I dug up quite a few things pre2010 just this week, that I needed.

    On a side note, thank you for keeping this list/forum/whatever_ya_call_it!

    Kind regards, Dejan.
  • Alexander_KrolAlexander_Krol Member - All Emails Posts: 50
    On 29/07/2018 2:06 PM xxxxx@signal100.com wrote:

    > Web-based/app-accessed forums seem fine to me if one is either dipping in now and again or if one uses only a few web forums but seem less
    > suitable if one is interested in many communities and thus do not have time to access multiple different forums (potentially with different forum
    > software and looks and feels). Some people think that email or NNTP are old fashioned; I think they are simply efficient.

    > Anyway, thanks again for the clear communications and for catering for those of us who prefer email.


    100% agree.

    As for old forums content - there's a lot of legacy code still alive and kicking. And sometimes it still has to be maintained - and I'm not even speaking about XP. There is still even Windows 2000 there in the wild, alive and kicking. Old forum content still serves practical purposes. So, IMHO, the earlier would be cutoff date, the better.

    Regards,
    Alex Krol
  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211
    Thanks to everyone for the feedback. We will TRY to communicate clearly, and I appreciate the encouragement that indicates that we?ve started on the right foot.

    <quote>
    Having to stop one's other workflow and look at a web forum via
    browser or app is far less time-efficient than simply seeing new
    messages appearing in one's mail client, NNTP client, or RSS/ATOM
    client, and being able to comment the same way (via email or NNTP).
    </quote>

    The new forum will indeed support RSS feeds. I agree these are valuable, even if they are sadly going out of style. Content providers tend not to like them because you can get content without the provider getting eyes on their site. That?s not something we care about (much) obviously.

    NNTP is just made for a different era. There are security issues with supporting it. That?s why it?s effectively dead and there?s no decent hosting provider that?ll support it these days. Times change.

    Peter
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

  • anton_bassovanton_bassov Member Posts: 4,983
    > As for old forums content - there's a lot of legacy code still alive and kicking.
    > And sometimes it still has to be maintained - and I'm not even speaking about XP.
    > There is still even Windows 2000 there in the wild, alive and kicking.


    I think it happens because organisations are not really THAT keen on software upgrades.
    Unlike "Apple fanboys" who always need the latest possible version of the device/OS just in order to look "cool", they tend to be fine with everything that offers the required functionality and serves its purpose well. In the end of the day, a large-scale software upgrade may be VERY costly, so that it does not really make sense to try the one unless you are pressed really hard.


    However, don't forget that hardware has a certain lifespan as well, so that their hardware base will get eventually updated as well. If you are using Win2K on your machine in the year 2018, it must be at least 15 years old, and, hence, is due to get replaced "for the natural causes" pretty shortly. Your new OEM machine is already going to have a new OS version, so that a hardware upgrade invariably implies the software one as well. Therefore, I think that the old OS versions will literally go through "the mass extinction" in the visible future, both in the desktop space and in the embedded one (although in the embedded world it may, probably, take a bit longer)......



    Anton Bassov
  • Alan_Adams-2Alan_Adams-2 Member Posts: 46
    > Do folks REALLY think posts back "to the beginning" (which is, effectively,
    > the year 2000) are valuable enough that we should port them?

    Perhaps in the same way the O'Reilly folks weren't sure a book on
    "Windows NT File System Internals" written for Windows NT 3.x/4.x was
    still helpful or informative? Thankfully there was a player in the
    Windows driver development community who saw the value in preserving
    even this older information for current file system developers. ;)

    If the project were mine to decide, I would certainly default to "from
    the beginning", rather than deciding what history will or will not be
    useful. That same archive is living on my laptop, so there is
    certainly room for it on the server. My US$0.02. Thanks for the
    commitment to the community, regardless of what you decide.

    Alan Adams
    Client for Open Enterprise Server
    Micro Focus
    xxxxx@microfocus.com
  • Unsubscribed_UserUnsubscribed_User Unsubscribed Member Posts: 131
    On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 1:19 PM, xxxxx@osr.com <xxxxx@lists.osr.com> wrote:
    > Thanks to everyone for the feedback. We will TRY to communicate clearly, and I appreciate the encouragement that indicates that we?ve started on the right foot.
    >
    > <quote>
    > Having to stop one's other workflow and look at a web forum via
    > browser or app is far less time-efficient than simply seeing new
    > messages appearing in one's mail client, NNTP client, or RSS/ATOM
    > client, and being able to comment the same way (via email or NNTP).
    > </quote>
    >
    > The new forum will indeed support RSS feeds. I agree these are valuable, even if they are sadly going out of style. Content providers tend not to like them because you can get content without the provider getting eyes on their site. That?s not something we care about (much) obviously.
    >
    > NNTP is just made for a different era. There are security issues with supporting it. That?s why it?s effectively dead and there?s no decent hosting provider that?ll support it these days. Times change.
    >

    Can you summarize the issues? Maybe in a personal email, if you have
    the time. I don't want to derail the conversation too badly.

    I am glad to see RSS support!
  • Mark_RousellMark_Rousell Member - All Emails Posts: 4
    On 30/07/2018 01:16, xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
    > On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 1:19 PM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
    >> Thanks to everyone for the feedback. We will TRY to communicate clearly, and I appreciate the encouragement that indicates that we?ve started on the right foot.
    >>
    >>
    >> Having to stop one's other workflow and look at a web forum via
    >> browser or app is far less time-efficient than simply seeing new
    >> messages appearing in one's mail client, NNTP client, or RSS/ATOM
    >> client, and being able to comment the same way (via email or NNTP).
    >>
    >>
    >> The new forum will indeed support RSS feeds. I agree these are valuable, even if they are sadly going out of style. Content providers tend not to like them because you can get content without the provider getting eyes on their site. That?s not something we care about (much) obviously.
    >>
    >> NNTP is just made for a different era. There are security issues with supporting it. That?s why it?s effectively dead and there?s no decent hosting provider that?ll support it these days. Times change.
    >>
    > Can you summarize the issues?

    I'm quite curious about the issues, too, but I do realise that this
    could take the discussion off-topic and could use up time better spent
    on other work!


    ( It does sadden me that NNTP is effectively dead and yet its use case
    is certainly alive and well with no direct, standardised, non-walled,
    federate-able replacement. )

    --
    Mark Rousell
  • Martin_BurnickiMartin_Burnicki Member - All Emails Posts: 23
    xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
    > But I *am* serious about wanting to know how far back in time people think the archives will be valuable. Back to 2005? Back to 2000?

    I also find the information that can be found in such an archive very
    valuable. Not only with regard to current driver development, but also
    to understand why older drivers were implemented in a specific way, and
    not least such an archive represents a lot of programming history that
    shouldn't simply be dropped.

    So I'd appreciate if the archive could be preserved as complete as possible.


    Martin
    --
    Martin Burnicki

    Senior Software Engineer

    MEINBERG Funkuhren GmbH & Co. KG
    Email: xxxxx@meinberg.de
    Phone: +49 5281 9309-414
    Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martinburnicki/

    Lange Wand 9, 31812 Bad Pyrmont, Germany
    Amtsgericht Hannover 17HRA 100322
    Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Günter Meinberg, Werner Meinberg,
    Andre Hartmann, Heiko Gerstung
    Websites: https://www.meinberg.de https://www.meinbergglobal.com
    Training: https://www.meinberg.academy
  • nlitednlited Member - All Emails Posts: 31
    If you don't maintain the history, someone else will. You will then no longer be the authoritative source for your own content. If I were you, this would be enough reason to at least try to maintain *everything*.

    This reminds me of the burning of the library of Alexandria. I suppose nothing of any real value was lost then, either. It is so much easier to lose vast chunks of history now. It is not just the technical info, it is the names, people, and context.
  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211
    >This reminds me of the burning of the library of Alexandria

    /rolls eyes

    I *get* that people think we should maintain the history. I appreciate that people love it and use it.

    But let's not get, you know, SILLY about the whole thing.

    I think Mr. Roberts made the point succinctly when he said "I think it would be a huge benefit for the industry." -- Point taken. I'm off looking into the practicality of keeping the old stuff.

    Peter
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

  • Gregory_G._DyessGregory_G._Dyess Member - All Emails Posts: 369
    I never need something that old....until I need it...and that is usually about 5 minutes AFTER it is deleted permanently.

    Greg

    --- xxxxx@lists.osr.com wrote:

    From: "xxxxx@osr.com" <xxxxx@lists.osr.com>
    To: "Windows System Software Devs Interest List" <xxxxx@lists.osr.com>
    Subject: RE:[ntdev] The Move to a New Home
    Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 16:49:16 -0400 (EDT)

    >This reminds me of the burning of the library of Alexandria

    /rolls eyes

    I *get* that people think we should maintain the history. I appreciate that people love it and use it.

    But let's not get, you know, SILLY about the whole thing.

    I think Mr. Roberts made the point succinctly when he said "I think it would be a huge benefit for the industry." -- Point taken. I'm off looking into the practicality of keeping the old stuff.

    Peter
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers


    ---
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  • Jeremy_HurrenJeremy_Hurren Member - All Emails Posts: 13
    If you can't move it and keep it searchable, etc. Even hosting a .zip
    file with a text dump of all the posts might enable the few who need it
    at some point to find an answer to a question.


    On 7/30/2018 2:49 PM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
    >> This reminds me of the burning of the library of Alexandria
    > /rolls eyes
    >
    > I *get* that people think we should maintain the history. I appreciate that people love it and use it.
    >
    > But let's not get, you know, SILLY about the whole thing.
    >
    > I think Mr. Roberts made the point succinctly when he said "I think it would be a huge benefit for the industry." -- Point taken. I'm off looking into the practicality of keeping the old stuff.
    >
    > Peter
    > OSR
    > @OSRDrivers
    >
    >
    > ---
    > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
    >
    > Visit the list online at: <http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev>;
    >
    > MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
    > Details at <http://www.osr.com/seminars>;
    >
    > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer>;
  • Dejan_MaksimovicDejan_Maksimovic Member - All Emails Posts: 224
    Ditto. An mbox file, need not even be hosted, you can use torrenting, to
    offload virtually all of the server load.
    You don't even need to do it on your own server, but public ones.

    Kind regards, Dejan.


    On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 11:42 PM xxxxx@lordjeb.com
    wrote:

    > If you can't move it and keep it searchable, etc. Even hosting a .zip
    > file with a text dump of all the posts might enable the few who need it
    > at some point to find an answer to a question.
    >
    >
    > On 7/30/2018 2:49 PM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
    > >> This reminds me of the burning of the library of Alexandria
    > > /rolls eyes
    > >
    > > I *get* that people think we should maintain the history. I appreciate
    > that people love it and use it.
    > >
    > > But let's not get, you know, SILLY about the whole thing.
    > >
    > > I think Mr. Roberts made the point succinctly when he said "I think it
    > would be a huge benefit for the industry." -- Point taken. I'm off
    > looking into the practicality of keeping the old stuff.
    > >
    > > Peter
    > > OSR
    > > @OSRDrivers
    > >
    > >
    > > ---
    > > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
    > >
    > > Visit the list online at: <
    > http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev>;
    > >
    > > MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
    > software drivers!
    > > Details at
    > >
    > > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
    > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer>;
    >
    >
    > ---
    > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
    >
    > Visit the list online at: <
    > http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev>;
    >
    > MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
    > software drivers!
    > Details at
    >
    > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
    > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer>;
    >
  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211
    > An mbox file, need not even be hosted

    Heard.

    Just so people understand: There?s zero chance of our making an mbox file available. The Lyris database is in a giant SQL Server database, which is a big part of what makes this migration so difficult.

    Thank you all very much for the inputs. I?ve heard the feedback you?ve provided so far, and we?re working the issue regarding keeping ALL the archives available. I?ll report back when I have an answer for you on that issue.

    Aside from the archive issue, if anybody has any other thoughts, ideas, suggestions, requests, or concerns, this would be a great time to raise them.

    Peter
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

  • Dejan_MaksimovicDejan_Maksimovic Member - All Emails Posts: 224
    Can the sql db be made public?

    On Tue, 31 Jul 2018, 13:42 xxxxx@osr.com, wrote:

    > > An mbox file, need not even be hosted
    >
    > Heard.
    >
    > Just so people understand: There?s zero chance of our making an mbox file
    > available. The Lyris database is in a giant SQL Server database, which is
    > a big part of what makes this migration so difficult.
    >
    > Thank you all very much for the inputs. I?ve heard the feedback you?ve
    > provided so far, and we?re working the issue regarding keeping ALL the
    > archives available. I?ll report back when I have an answer for you on that
    > issue.
    >
    > Aside from the archive issue, if anybody has any other thoughts, ideas,
    > suggestions, requests, or concerns, this would be a great time to raise
    > them.
    >
    > Peter
    > OSR
    > @OSRDrivers
    >
    >
    > ---
    > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
    >
    > Visit the list online at: <
    > http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev>;
    >
    > MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
    > software drivers!
    > Details at
    >
    > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
    > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer>;
    >
  • Mark_RoddyMark_Roddy Member - All Emails Posts: 4,305
    One thing I've noticed is that my email spam filter has seen a big increase
    in forum email routed to the spam bucket. I'm trying to decide if that is a
    feature or a bug.

    Mark Roddy


    On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 7:42 AM xxxxx@osr.com wrote:

    > > An mbox file, need not even be hosted
    >
    > Heard.
    >
    > Just so people understand: There?s zero chance of our making an mbox file
    > available. The Lyris database is in a giant SQL Server database, which is
    > a big part of what makes this migration so difficult.
    >
    > Thank you all very much for the inputs. I?ve heard the feedback you?ve
    > provided so far, and we?re working the issue regarding keeping ALL the
    > archives available. I?ll report back when I have an answer for you on that
    > issue.
    >
    > Aside from the archive issue, if anybody has any other thoughts, ideas,
    > suggestions, requests, or concerns, this would be a great time to raise
    > them.
    >
    > Peter
    > OSR
    > @OSRDrivers
    >
    >
    > ---
    > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
    >
    > Visit the list online at: <
    > http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev>;
    >
    > MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
    > software drivers!
    > Details at
    >
    > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
    > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer>;
    >
  • Peter_Viscarola_(OSR)Peter_Viscarola_(OSR) Administrator Posts: 7,211
    Continued in a new thread.

    Peter Viscarola
    OSR
    @OSRDrivers

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